Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on November 18, 2007, 10:42:10 PM
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I was not going to put this on the board. I wrote a PM to a member who is further down the road that I am and asked her this question. Then I thought,I am almost '"totally bare'" anyway, here----- so why not just be honest.
The other day at my party,I had a HUGE growth experience. I was able to see "bad" traits such as selfishness, being judemental, not liking s/one(this was a VERY bad trait in my house) and I was able to observe then without judging myself as bad ..I just saw them float by. I reasoned that they were just "human feelings and thoughts'.
This was a huge step for me in being "normal". I define normal like this. You can accept your feelings and thoughts as they are and you can see life as it is.To me, those things would make me "normal"(in my eyes)
So ,here is my question. I have a quality that I can emotionally detach from feelings as if I am in another dimension where there ARE no feelings.IOW,I can detach to the point where I do not feel the "feeling" that I think the situation would call for. I can observe the situation like I am looking at a bug under a microscope.
Yesterday,I had a moment of this when the guy broke the beer bottle. Maybe ,it is nothing at all. Maybe,it is "bad". However, whatever it is, I have it.
So, with all other "barings' of my soul-I hope that somebody out there understands and can relate. Thank you again for giving me a place to ask these kind of things. Ami
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Cool, Ami, cool. That detachment is very Zen- you could spend years in a monastary learning techniques for this!!! This is major spritual level stuff in all religions!!!!
I can do this when there are natural disasters or other moments pf extreme peril. I did this after my accident. I only wish that I could master detachment to the extent that you have!
Ami, you don't have to give yourself away, not value your own judgements, or like every jackal, turkey or weasel in the world to be good- you just have to be you!YOU are good. God gave you discernment and free will!!!
Love,
Changing
P.S.
What manner of person broke a beer bottle?!?!?!
XXOO
C.
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Dear Changing,
I need so much validation that I am "normal' . Another friend said to me,"You are fine, everyone can see it ,but you.". That meant so much to me ,as your comments did. I have such severe self doubt.
I was brainwashed for so long and so deeply that I was not "normal' and my M WAS that I simply have to be '"de-programmed" like people are when they get out of cults.
Changing, thank you so much for your wise answer. .. Honestly,it is like pure gold to me. Love You, Ami
(((((((((((((((((((Changing)))))))))))))))))
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I have to add s/thing . I SEE that my H was also trying to get me to think that I was "crazy". This is "too" big to face. I see (from what Changing said about isolating you) that he hated any friend that I would have unless it was within a social circle of his friends.
I can see how he tried to turn Maria against me. I see how he ,always tried to turn both my sons against me.
Now,I see why I always related to the book 'Rosemary's Baby".. Rosemary was trying to convince everyone that SHE was sane . The whole book was about her trying to run to 'safe" people and get them to see the truth. I remember the worst part was when she ran to the doctor. . She got there and she thought that she was "safe'. She was breathing so heavily from escaping . She thought that she finally could rest and be O.K. The doctor was in the coven and he delivered her back .
I feel very overwhelmed with seeing that my M and then my H tried to take away my trust in myself
Ami
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I see that for me to be 'normal,I have to face that my "outside "world was not normal. I got a small picture of this last night. My parents had invited my B over for dinner for his B-day.
My B was complaining about the meal and my parents were upset.I said to my F,' It is NOT about the dinner .This is about people getting divorced b/c one squeezed the toothpaste wrong.Mom violates him and abuses him and then expects everything to be O.K. b/c she makes a nice dinner." My F was NOT happy with what I said. They want to blame my B rather than the elephant in the living room- my NPD mother.
NOW, my M is trying to cozy up to my older S. He and I decided that he is not going to take her calls. She wants someone to validate her. She is so "nice" to my S--so caring and kind.
Honestly,I feel like I am in Rosemary's (Rosemary's Baby)world. I really do. Love Ami
Thank God for you guys.
I,also, see how my F was part of the whole drama that EVERYONE in the family could be sacrificed so my M could look "normal". My F wants to blame my B for not liking the dinner. Lord Help Me------Is this how life is----all LIES?Everything and Everyone can be sacrificed EXCEPT the person causing the problems---the NPD.
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Hi Ami,
Completely apart from who your mother is (completely agree w/you there) ... you're saying your brother was complaining about the meal that was made for him for his birthday???? This isn't quite computing. Not saying I am a reality check, but... that seems ungracious of him. It would be more "normal" to be gracious and thankful when someone cooks you a bday meal. (No matter who the someone is.)
Just in case you don't see anything odd about your B. It sounds like a great deal of entitlement to me.
I love your son's decision about her calls. When he's old enough, he can handle his relationship with his grandmother on his own, to whatever degree he wants. But to not have her calling him under your nose sounds like it'd be a relief.
Hops
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NOW, my M is trying to cozy up to my older S. He and I decided that he is not going to take her calls. She wants someone to validate her. She is so "nice" to my S--so caring and kind.
Honestly,I feel like I am in Rosemary's (Rosemary's Baby)world. I really do. Love Ami
Dear Ami,
That's exactly what NM's do, and what they do best, in my own personal experience.
Your son seems to have a lovely wise head on his shoulders :)
Agree with Hops regarding your Brother.
Love, Leah
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I am looking at the larger picture. When people get divorced ----is it b/c one squeezed the toothpaste wrong? That was my larger point.
Ami
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What my M ( and H) tried to steal from me was the "knower' inside, the reactor,:the part of me that would say,"No more.". They wanted me to doubt myself so badly that I would discount my normal self protective mechanisms . Ami
There is a guy that I listen to on the radio. His instincts are so good. He can "feel" the intent of the caller. He can hear 'under the surface verbiage" to the real issues. I love to listen to him b/c he is like an animal with all it's instincts intact.
He does not have to be hit over the head to "get" the real point about what is going on. He trusts himself and he is usually right. I had an incident with Maria where I "felt" s/thing was happening,but I wasn't sure and didn't trust my instincts. Later,I found out that I was 100% right.
Our instincts are so precious. They are so life enhancing.
My former b/f(cop) ALWAYS trusted his instincts. On the few times that he might be wrong he said,'So what?Look at the 95% of the time that I am right."
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With the N mother and the N(ish?) H --EVERYTHING is so you don't trust yourself. It is SO big to see this.
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A crude example came to me. Oprah Winfrey was molested by a guy who would buy her an ice cream cone. Should she have thanked him for the ice cream cone? [ My B and dinner] Ami
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Ami, I think Rosemary's Baby is such a good analogy for how a skilled N tries to bend, manipulate and shape the reality of everyone around them for their own ends. They 'absorb' the people around them by convincing them they hold all the keys and that they must always look to the N to define reality and then to be the tools to carry out the Ns agenda. (The N in the movie is Satan, of course, and everyone else his sycophants). Families, or any situation dominated by an N are the same way, IMO. Of course I don't think all Ns are the devil (although it has crossed my mind!). The end goal for the N (and Satan) is omniscient power.
Bill
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This thread really set me free. I feel so much better. Thank you so much for your comments. Love Ami
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Hey Ami,
Sorry if I missed something. Was your brother also abused by your mother?
Did he WANT to go have dinner with them?
Is he still involved...was he upset...
I think I don't have a clear picture about him.
hugs
Hops
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Dear Hops,
He was more abused than I was. I could give a whole list ,but let me say that it was severe cerebral N abuse.
My family is living a lie that my M is normal. That accounts for how I feel so "abnormal" b/c the standard for normality is her
Anyway, I guess that you got caught up in a minor point when I was making a life changing point----Oh well- the problem with cyberspace. Ami
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Ami,
I think what you describing is called observing self? You and I talked about this once before, if I am not mistaken? However, It was in the context of a desire to act out rather than stay with our feelings. It seems that this is progress. If you have ever read the book Healing the Child Within, there are charts that show recovery and growth, these charts are never a straight upwards graph - the work is always moving us in one direction but it seems that we go back and forth.
Perhaps again you are just growing more into that healthy observing stage?
Also, you said:
I was able to see "bad" traits such as selfishness, being judgemental, not liking s/one(this was a VERY bad trait in my house) and I was able to observe then without judging myself as bad ..I just saw them float by. I reasoned that they were just "human feelings and thoughts'.
Perhaps you were picking up on something about this person(s), you antenna or radar gets clearer about who we can trust and who we can't trust as safe people as we grow. As a child, my moms telling me how I felt and how I didn't feel was always confusing my antenna and causing self-doubt. Now we are in touch!
A month ago, while I was on a retreat, there was a participant with whom I picked up on something negative, I only desired to interact with them from afar. I later asked one of the therapists on the retreat, in care and curiosity, if my perception was correct. She being a close and good friend, not my therapist, validated for me my intuition. She conveyed with care that they wear a thick mask and that their are acting, "yes your intuition was correct."
Hope some of this helps,
(((((((((((((((AMI))))))))))))))))
Lise
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Dear Lise,
That helps so very much.I think that I am pulling back and feeling "detachment" and it scared me b/ci it was new. Love to you. Thanks for all your help. Love Ami
(((((((((((Lise)))))))))))))))))))
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Dear Amber,
I was "afraid "of it(detachment) b/c it was "new", although if I think back,I did have this quality in the times in my life that I was centered.
What is really scary and upseting to me is how I don't trust myself.I used to. I used to feel like if I had an emotion, then it was 'human". I did not question myself :my feelings and thoughts as if they were "people that I couldn't trust". I had an "easy" relationship with them If I had one wish ,it would be siimply to trust myself ,as my Aunt does. My Aunt simply says,'It is human Ami ,dear."
Lord--to be that "normal"
I can see the pitifulness of my M. She was so insecure.I used to wonder,as a kid, why she couldn't just make up her mind without so much angst.
Well here I am ,now-----needing reassurance for every 'ouch" or emotion.
I hope that as I face it,it will be on it's way out--as is usually the case when I write about s/thing.
Love Ami
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Whoa Ami I never thought of it this way before, but it hits home for me like a big blinding lightbulb!
With the N mother and the N(ish?) H --EVERYTHING is so you don't trust yourself. It is SO big to see this.
Ha ha ha ha no wonder I don't trust my own perceptions - DUH! I'm cracking up laughing! Not an accident! All these years I angst about 'is my perception right? Could this be correct? This couldn't be right, not if I am noticing it?" Oh my god!
It's like you just turned on the light and dispelled the darkness of my ignorance and confusion. I'm serious.
I've realized from something you wrote about how your M's target was your feelings, that my dad's target was my knowledge - my mind - my perceptions. He disparaged these relentlessly since I was a tiny girl. The details on that would be for another post, if I ever get some quiet time to actually post at length, but I want to say the work you are doing right now and posting is helping me hugely. I will read your post and have to rush off but 24/7 these related insights and memories and understandings are coming up for me - it's the connections between it all especially that are being illuminated that I have never been able to make before.
Also, I read about meditation and intermittently try to practice it. My understanding from readings is that we are not our thinking minds - all those thoughts and feelings. Meditation is the practice of knowing ourselves as spiritual awareness, NOT the thinking mind. So one observes the thinking mind as something that is happening within our still awareness. I find some metaphors helpful that I have read, such as - think of the mind like a stream of water and all individual thoughts as leaves in the stream. In meditation (and the goal is to be able to live this understanding all the time) we practice to watch the thoughts go by, not clutch them. When we clutch them we mistakenly thing of the thought as Us, or mine. Ego gets in and confuses things, brings in guilt and anxiety. All people have mind and thoughts floating constantly through like leaves in a stream. Hmm don't know if I expressed that fully or well. Like Lise posted, it's about being in witness consciousness which has many different names - stillness, the cloud of unknowing, beingness, witness, presence, awareness. Understanding ourselves as a consciousness, not a form but beyond forms. Physical things are forms, but thoughts are forms too.
One idea that helps me is that the mind is like a tool of consciousness. It's a powerful tool, but we are not our tools - we are spirit and have minds. That's the idea I guess. I've been trying to get some detachment for a long time but for some reason these concepts I've been describing above take a really really long time to sink in for me.
Back to the topic of your B - I feel so badly for him without even knowing the details. I see what you mean about complaining about the dinner when he's basically a victim of outrageous crimes. And I'm sure the dinner is M's idea and the unspoken thing is that what she chooses to do - make the dinner - is somehow tacit recompense for all the other crimes. Because she makes a birthday dinner and your B eats it, then because he ate it he must never bring up the REAL stuff that is huge and has gone on for god knows how many decades. It's like those stories where you travel to the underworld or the fairy world and you accidentally eat something small and can NEVER go home or get out of the deal you didn't know you agreed to.
Ah got to run.
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Iphi, thank you for understanding things so well that you illumine my understanding too.
Brilliant, inspiring post...
My mind thanks you and my heart feels good and my spirit is just there, peace...
xo
Hops
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Hops - glad that was expressed in an effective way for you. I have read lots of stuff on these lines and tried meditating this away and that away and mostly it was like the guy said in the link you posted "my butt itches. Can I stop now. I've been here forever. How much longer - I've only been here for 20 seconds? What?! In and out goes the breath and... so what?" Anyway, didn't get it and didn't get it and then after some years started to gradually get it - and it's not complicated but, I don't know - it was just really hard for me to understand. :lol:
I have really got to recommend the Power of Now in this context. It's just such a good book about extricating yourself from identifying your total being as just your mind/body/emotions. It's really good.
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Dear Iphi,
You said it ( about my B) so much better than I did. Thank you.I called my F and told him essentially what you said. He is really cute. He said,"I will have to think about that." . His whole "life"(perceptions ) are falling down around him and he says,"I will have to think about that.'
( The "worse" thing that ever happened to my M was when my F started going to Al Anon,13 years ago. He started walking out of her prison.)
Iphi,I am so glad that my healing is helping you.I have always related to you ..I think that we think alike in many ways and have similar emotional patterns.
This weekend ,it was very hard for me to share,but it reaped great rewards ,as I shed old ideas that were held together with shame.
Iphi, This is really interesting.I have wanted to share it with you for a long time. Your F was your 'main" parent and my M was my "main 'parent.
I read that the D's of N's CAN develop their intellect,but NOT their emotions. I wondered if your F would not let you develop your intellect ,as I could not develop my emotions.
I do not feel blocked in the intellect.
My emotions are another story. I feel like I am emotionally ill or mentally ill for "most " emotions. I have to ask people,"Am I O.K.(normal) .This is so painful for me that I can't tell you.I have a dear friend (who i I have been driving crazy with,'Am I normal?")
I so badly just want to feel a feeling and think a thought and just "be" with it without being "petrified' that I am "losing my mind"
I guess that sharing is the first step. This was the arena in which my N M just denuded me.
You,on the board,give me courage to go on b/c I am not alone, anymore Love Ami
((((((((((((((((Iphi))))))))))))))
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Ami - Yes I think you expressed it so well Ami. For me it is the intellect that is all crushed. If you could see me, so much is in body language and expression. I was in a group therapy last year and they pointed out that if I express something (such as an observation) I almost 'take it back' again with body language. I undercut it by laughing at what a silly thing I just said or wave it away with my hands (or both), hunch my shoulders. I don't even know all the ways that I say "don't take this seriously. Don't listen to me" because to me - that is when the big attacks happened.
The T in the group pointed out to me "you seem unable to take yourself seriously." and she was right about that and I had never seen that piece of it. It is in this realm that I have been relentlessly savaged over the course of decades. This is where the big damage is and enormous anxiety, so much that I cannot function. Also I am paralyzed and when someone is aggressive to me in exactly this way - I am unable to defend myself at all.
So even if the specifc things are different - like I was never mocked just for enjoying a simple pleasure like painting fingernails like you were, it's the same mechanics with a different spin - yes? For me it would be something like - I took art classes for many years and my dad would tear down the drawings and paintings, tear down art as an interest, talk about how I would starve on the street, how naive I was, how uninformed, how completely unsuited to the real world on and on and on. Not just about art, but about everything all the time in every area. The patronizing the mischaracterizing, the inability to validate or even recognize any actual attributes, efforts or accomplishments, and always the lies. Well, you guys know. The anxiety is so bad if I move toward intellect - things that spark the PTSD - that I seize up - paralyzed - beyond panic stricken - it is throughout my whole being. I feel safe using my intellect in areas my dad knows nothing about - as long as I only keep it all safe within myself and do NOT try to express anything into the world.
I can easily see how that would damage you in just the feeling of being at ease in your own self and understand how the locus of the damage is in your emotions and relationship with this part of you. I relate to your experience very much too, even though there's an apples and oranges kind of difference about our respective experiences with a cerebral N mom v. a dad.
Ami you are way brave to press forward and be 'out there' with your journey. And also you take the fight to the 'enemy' so to speak by speaking up with your F and not letting him get himself swallowed back up. Personally, I believe the trajectory we carry in our lives has implications beyond just this life, not that I personally know what those implications are. But for example if I kept smoking it would have some sort of implication beyond what I know. Given that belief, it is really good for your dad beyond the situation we are familiar with (current life married to an N) that he is slowly but surely freeing himself and walking out of it. However long it takes and however far he gets, he is surely moving in the right direction, the way I see it.
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I feel save using my intellect in areas my dad knows nothing about - as long as I only keep it all safe within myself and do NOT try to express anything into the world.
Damn, Iphi. That makes me MAD.
What is the (((()))) opposite typographical indication for N-strangling? Okay, pretend these are barbed-wire. Note direction of barbs. So I am using that to encase Iphi's "male parent".
}}}}}}}}}him{{{{{{{{{{{ :twisted:
Hops
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Dear Iphi,
That post was so validating to me----Thank you so much. My F is a very special person. He always has been. He THANKS me for helping him get out of denial. He tells me how proud he is of me for changing .. He has always been a kind ,loving person. He just would not stand up. Also, the lie he told me that my M was O.K. pushed me over the edge. However, he has given me a true apology and it is over.
It is amazing the difference between a true apology and an N apology(night and day)
For me, my current struggle is to accept my feelings and thoughts. I did not have criricsm in intellectual or artistic pursuits. They were encouraged . I was never put down for them. Whatever I wanted to study or learn,my parents provided the way and the means, happily. Now,I am free in these areas. It is amazing what conditioning will do.I can study an instrument or a subject and enjoy it in freedom.
However,if I have a "smidgeon" of a "feeling,I think that I am "mentally ill"----oy.
Just wanted to share HOW much conditioning determines our outlook. I think that we can let it go by facing it and expressing it. That always has helped me so far. Love Ami
(((((((((((((Iphi))))))))))))
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I feel like I am emotionally ill or mentally ill for "most " emotions. I have to ask people,"Am I O.K.(normal) .This is so painful for me that I can't tell you.
(((Ami))),
You said the above and my heart went out to you -- I know this needing of affirmation that we are OK. Children of N's have an affirmation deficit. I once heard someone say that God uses people to bless us and that a blessing from someone is like the wind on a sail that helps it to move. With N parents there was not enough wind or love.
Only Lord know how many times I need to hear the I am OK blessing. I still need to hear that from my T. It is like my M's negative and critical voice are still in me - PTSD, I can call my T and ask her in the middle of the day, am I OK?
For a while I was calling her everyday at noon for about 5 minutes of perspective because my head was so full of the past and my negative perseptions of myself. Now this the support from this message board helps.
Lise