Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: el123 on June 01, 2004, 01:23:48 PM
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I was gone for a week visiting a friend last week (longest I've ever been away from the kids!). My H and I had an agreement not to talk to his N mother or N brother as they were literally destroying our marriage/family. (If interested, please refer to my previous posts. Too long to put down and I'm too depressed to go over it again :cry: ).
Anyways, my H has a problem being honest with me when it comes to his family which is another of our problems. Is this common with ACON's? He lied to me and I found out that his N brother had called to tell him to call his mother so she "wouldn't die" (my N BIL is a DOCTOR and lives with N MIL with his family also N MIL could call 911 if there was a problem). But my H called my N MIL and now she's back in our lives. Of course she has absolutely no health problems whatsoever. My H didn't even have to pick up the phone when my BIL called. We have caller ID. The thing that irks me the most about this is that as soon as I'm gone, he picks up the phone when BIL or MIL call. Because I'm not there to tell him not to. I feel like he has placed me in the mother role.
I know that my H has had it rough with the N's in his life (so have I, N mother...) but we AGREED to cut it off cold turkey with his mother and brother until we could work out our problems. And it had been over a month with no contact and things were dramatically improving with us. When I brought it up, we got into a HUGE fight (this is the same day I get back from a week of being gone). He said it was just a 'white lie' and yelled at me. He said that I was being unreasonable (even though our marriage is hanging on this...) I just wanted to spend time with my kids when I got back but I spent the night crying myself to sleep on the couch. He is no good when I'm upset. He kicks me when I'm down. He's never been there for me when I was upset. Is this common for ACON's as well? I'm so upset. I don't know what to do. I can't live this way any longer. I'm considering divorce even though I have 3 small children. It's just unbearable. I don't even know if I've explained this well enough for anyone to answer since I can't stop crying and reading is difficult. I feel like I just want some encouragement. Something to keep me hanging on. Whenever a sliver of hope opens up, he shatters is. He cannot be honest. My therapist said that he didn't think my H was a N but I don't know. What do I do? How do I live this way? I just want to dissapear.
-E
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Unfortunately, I don't remember your story nor do I know which are your previous posts. I understand how distraught you are. I can see how betrayed you feel, and how demoralizing his actions were. However there is something else. It's unrealistic to ask a partner to totally cut off family members, no matter how destructive they are. The agreement between you and your husband was not practical or realistic. Even if it's a good idea to get rid of these people (I'm sure it is), asking him to cut them off is putting him in an impossible bind. That's why he went into a defensive mode and counterattacked when he felt threatened and cornered.
Maybe you do need to divorce him. But don't make that decision when you're upset. I would seek marital counseling first. Can your therapist refer you to someone today?
bunny
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Hi there,
Sounds like a real pressure cooker you are in right now. Hang in there. I have just come to this board so please excuse my amateur attempts here - Just wondered if you could release a bit of the pressure by scheduling an hour or so with your husband to go for a walk or talk to a mediator of some sort. Raising children and dealing with N's- it's an overflowing plate - the Full Catastrophe as one book teasingly put it.
I have a mother who is always dying but is also in perfect health - it isn't just a hook it's a hug grappling iron and it is so hard to resist it. I can't resist because well what if... and then I'd be left with huge guilt the rest of my life. There is a lot at stake. Possibly it is just too much for your husband to resist and yet he wants to appear to be honouring your agreement too. You are both in a pretty tight place.
I would suggest softening a bit around the no contact with family as troubling as they must be for you. I'm sorry I don't know your history - I can only imagine how difficult it is to have these people in your life but perhaps there is a compromise position with lots of guidelines.
Good luck
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bunny, thanks for responding. Unfortunately I don't know how to get to my old posts. I tried plugging in my name but didn't get get the post I wrote about.
My post was not very clear. I know that it is completely unreasonable to ask anyone to cut off family members. But we had a very uniqe situation. In our situation, our IL's were destroying our marriage and our well being (My H was paying my MIL's bills even though we couldn't afford it and couldn't pay mortgage, my MIL was calling up EVERY day to threaten suicide, never following through of course, etc . etc. Would not listen to boundaries. There's LOTS more. Just can't get to the posts :? don't know why. ugh!! But this was WAY beyond appropriate and everyone, everyone, even our therapist, said we needed to cut her and BIL out of our lives for everyone's sake).
-E
p.s. Does anyone know how to get to previous posts? I may have logged in as a guest. But I think it was titled "My story".
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Hi El123,
Sorry for your dilemma.
Would you characterize your H as a Momma's boy? I don't mean to offend here. I was just wondering.
I know he's in a quandry, but his first allegience is to you and your family. If his Mom is fed and has a roof over her head, he has no further obligation to her IMO. And if she is being destructive to your family, he should stand up to her and tell her to take the proverbial hike! It sounds like he hasn't really gotten "it" yet.
I actually do think he should keep your agreement. ANYONE who is destructive to your family should be booted even if their name is Mom. I hope that sinks in to him pretty soon or he may lose his family.
Good luck to you.
MM
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I have been searching everywhere and cannot find the post I'm referring to so I'll sum up the destruction as best as I can. Please keep in mind that this is only a snippet of it:
My BIL is a multi-millionaire and a N and leads my H by the nose. He tells my H to jump and my H says "how high". Anyways, my BIL owes my MIL 1/2 a million dollars and somehow convinced my H to pay his bill. My H kept this info from me and sent money to my MIL each month because and only because my BIL TOLD my H to. Meanwhile my BIL's kids are in 30,ooo dollar/yr (no exaggeration on ANY of this) kindergarten, private piano, he just went in with others on a multi million dollar condo investment and we can't even pay our mortgage much less buy anything for ourselves and our kids were in NO activities cause we couldn't afford them. I find out about this the way someone would an affair. Looked through the cancelled checks and saw that each month H was paying my MIL what my BIL owed her because and only because BIL told my H to (my H has a VERY dysfunctional relationship with both his Mother and his Brother...). H confessed finally. Meanwhile, while this is going on, my N MIL is calling me EVERY day complaining that she is not getting the money that BIL owes her and she wants to commit suicide. Not saying "oh, you are paying my bills. Thanks". But instead, keeping me on my toes. Thinking that she is terribly upset and giving her all of my support, etc. Sometimes calling me 2 to 3 times per day. And my H said that she has been doing this his entire life. My Mil has constantly had my H choose between her or me and it's always been her. For instance, right after my first child was born, she called him in to work even though he was supposed to have two weeks off (it was her restaurant that he worked in. She was responsible for vacation, etc.) and I was bleeding heavily and needed a doctor to tell her that I needed someone with me in case I hemmorraged. But my H only took off 2 days instead of two weeks and that was like pulling teeth simply because my MIL asked my H in to wait tables for God's sakes. She called him into work when we were supposed to go on vacation (it would have been his only one in 1 1/2 yrs. We were going to visit my family who we had moved away from so that we could be close to MIL and it was all set but at the last minute she said she needed him in) She would call late at night obsessively leaving messages and yell that noone called her back because she wanted help cleaning her fridge. Call on valentine's day night and ruin any chance of romance by threatening suicide because he cared more for me than her. I could go on and on and on. Literally write a book on all that she has done. Yelled at me in a crowded wedding to watch my SIL's baby (leave the church and miss the wedding) Literally yelled "GEt out!!" pointing at me to leave to watch my niece. I never even said that I would watch my niece. There's SO much more. Please believe me when I say that she is ultra destructive to me, my family, my marriage. My therapist (who even my H goes to now) said that both she and BIL are toxic and like a poison to us. He said that they absolutely need to be cut off if our marriage has any chance of survival. My H agreed to this!!!
That's why I'm so upset! He immediately answered BIL's call and, since BIL said "Call mom" H thinks he has no choice but to call his mom. I just don't know what to do here. I have no trust in my H. I have trust issues to begin with since my mother is a N. My H yells at me because he thinks this is just a 'white lie' he said. But it was what was keeping our marriage and family together.
I am not articulating clearly and I apologize. I'm just too upset. And yes MM, H is definately a Momma's boy and I take no offense whatsoever to you asking that :) . She has a roof over her head, is fed, etc and agreed to not contact us as we told her that we were considering splitting up because of her and BIL's interference. That's why this is so hard! They're putting their hooks in again and H is once again falling for it.
Thanks Less, I'd love to just talk to my H but I just simply don't trust him to tell the truth at this point. It's very frustrating. He has broken my trust over and over again. Talking seems pointless. I am so upset over this. I can barely care for my children right now.
-E
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sorry you're having a rough time.
It must be hard being mixed with such a dysfunctional crowd who all feed each other's problems, but when you get to the point of feeling unable to cope with your children maybe it's time to re-prioritise you and the kids and let the others go play without you...
You can't help your husband be independent, or to face his own issues, he has to help himself.
But you can help yourself re-discover a sense of self and a calm homelife.
I asked my n h to move out @ 4 months ago and things are much better for us all ( with occasional blips of course )
I agonised about the decision for a couple of years but know 100% that it is the best way forward, and h ( who put himself in therapy ) agrees.
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Thanks for reposting your story. It seems you credit the BIL and MIL for screwing up your marriage. They are crazy for certain but they aren't really the problem. The problem is a severely pathological family situation that a marriage probably can't override. Your husband is psychically fused with his relations. He feels at a deep level that he can't survive without them. So asking him to cut them off cold turkey is impractical. I know you think your case is special and that's why he should cut them off, but it's actually similar to other situations, including my own with a MIL (who is now dead, thank goodness).
You went away for a week. Your husband *could not survive that long* without his mother or a surrogate.
Your husband is stuck in an impossible bind: does he try to cooperate with you? Or does he cut off his lifeline: brother and mother. To him (as to you) this is life or death. His unconscious mind feels you're asking him to commit suicide. And he has a survival instinct.
Here are your options as I see them:
(1) Marriage counseling starting today or this week. Even if it's to talk about divorce.
(2) Call your own therapist asap as you are in a crisis. Ask for help.
bunny
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write, It's great to hear that things are better with you since you made your decision for you H to move out. Do you have children? How are they handling it? Just wondering because I've actually thought of this but the kids prevent me from it (thinking of how it will affect them).
bunny, I definately do not credit my BIL and MIL for screwing up our marriage. We certainly have our share of problems. For example, one major problem we have is that he cannot be there for me when I'm upset. This goes back to his mother using him as surrogate husband and constantly using being upset in order to manipulate him. He recognizes this and is trying to change this. But the BIL and MIL definately make marriage a hell of a lot harder than if they weren't around. I know that there is boundary issues in the family (to put it midly....). But cutting them off cold turkey WAS working! I cannot stress this point enough. We hadn't spoken to them in about two months and both his stress level and mine were reduced by about 80%. My H commented repeatedly to me how much life was better not speaking to them. My BIL called while I was away. I think he knew I was gone (my aunt is friends with MIL and told her). My H did not call him, my H just answered the phone. My H wants to cut off his brother and mother. This is not just me telling him to do it. Also, we are both in therapy and our therapist agrees and advised him that cutting them off cold turkey is in the best interest of everyone. The therapist even said that he refrains from telling people what to do but that he felt he had to say this in this case. His brother was just trying to hook him back in because my H told his brother that he never wanted to speak to him again (they had a big blow out). And my H was following through. My H has told me and our therapist that he wants no contact with his brother or mother right now. My H told his brother and mother this as well. They are not respecting the boundaries he has set (and my H was weak and gave in). This is not me forcing him into it. It's just that his brother and mother are master manipulators and do their best to guilt him into doing what they want (his words). He had a slip up and lied about it to me. Yes, we have other problems but this is one that I'm dealing with at the moment. -E
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el123
I hear what you're saying. I don't think you forced your husband into cutting them off. I think you *asked* him to do it for the sake of the marriage. I also think he *hoped he could do it*. The therapist knows that these people are poison. However the therapist may not understand how powerful the attachment is, and how difficult it would be for your husband to maintain this boundary. I'm not sure how he thought your husband would be able to do it -- *even if* things got better (see next paragraph).
The sad fact is, when things start going better, people will frequently *revert* to their dysfunctional family and previous dependent behavior. I'm kind of surprised that your therapist didn't consider this possibility. I'm also surprised that the therapist believed your husband could cut these people off successfully. He's had decades of pathological life-or-death dependency on them. He feels he cannot survive without them, although he intellectually knows they're poison.
Anyway, I hope you can get an emergency martial counseling appointment because things are really critical right now.
BTW My husband was virtually the slave of his mother so I know what you're talking about.
bunny
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Hi El,
I am pretty new to this forum and I am not sure if I have anything to offer you in the way of advice. I just want to say that I am sorry you are going through this. I believe you will find your way through because it sounds like you are taking the right steps. Keep on going.
Please take care of yourself and those little kiddies!
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Hi El123,
I hope I don't sound too lame but have you tried "call block" on your phone?
And you can block emails so they go directly into the delete file.
I know these are just band aids..you have a serious problem. But these things helped me when I had to cut off my NPD stalker sister. She literally would invade my space at every oportunity. She then sent me snail mail which I treated like toxic waste and shredded immediately.
Have you thought about physically moving so that it would be easier for your H to resist? About 3000 miles away sounds almost right. But even that might not help if H doesn't have the resolve to do the above. Actually, what I did worked very well. I HAD to kick sis out of my life because she was destructive. But I had the understanding and resolve to do it. It may or may not work for you.
Again, this is just something you can try. And I would screen any calls before picking up the phone and have H get in the habit as well. Heck you can take the phone off the hook as well and get a cell phone for emergencies. Or change your number completely. Think outside the box on this one. Your H isn't strong enough to change but maybe a lessening of temptation can help you limit the contact with BIL and MIL. Treat him like the little boy that he is......I'd take away his check book privileges as well. You seem to have one more kid than you thought. This guy is not a real partner, I hope he has redeeming qualities. Good luck to you.
MM
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write, It's great to hear that things are better with you since you made your decision for you H to move out. Do you have children? How are they handling it? Just wondering because I've actually thought of this but the kids prevent me from it (thinking of how it will affect them).
yes, took my son a while to accept but everyone's a lot happier.
Really if you think about it your kids aren't old enough to have the responsibility for your marriage, that's how I looked at it. Also: do I want to be a role model for unhappy/ dysfunctional marriage for them in the future?
We still spend a lot of time together as a family and it's a lot more relaxed.
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I see your point, bunny. But HE is the one who said that he wanted to cut them off to begin with. Are you saying that it sounds like there's no hope here? That there's no chance for change? I do have an appointment with my therapist on Saturday and so does my H.
Learning, thank you for saying it sounds like I'm taking the right steps. I'm so confused right now that this really helps.
MM, I think I will get call block. H would have to get it at work too, though (not sure if he can there. He has his own office and phone but not sure if they allow it there. I'll see about that). Moving doesn't sound half bad and yes, I have thought of it but my daughter is in school and the other two have little friends here and all of the people I love live here so that would be worse for me I think. Yes, he does have redeeming qualities. That's the thing that gets me! It would be so easy if he was a complete a*h*, ya know? But he's not! He took a week off of work so that I could visit my best friend in Paris. Didn't complain about the money. He helps with the kids. He encourages me in my writing (I'm writing a book). Even bought me a comfortable computer chair and carefully filed all my pages in a neat way so that I could check to see how many pages/words I had, he is so so wonderful in so many ways! Almost everyone who meets him/knows him tells me what a nice guy he is. And he really can be! 90 percent of the time he is a sweetheart. And he's the father of my children and they love him and he loves them. He helps out with them, etc. I don't want a divorce! I want things to work out SO BADLY!!! I just don't know how to trust him after all of this and he's got issues from his past (but he's working on them in therapy). I'm so confused and don't know what to do. One minute I think that I can't stand another day with him and the next minute I just want to hug him and tell him that we'll work it out together. He tells me that he loves me all the time. He has never cheated on me or hurt me physically or done anything so outrageous that I could say "ok, this is it". Now I'm rambling. I think I need help figuring out what to do. What is normal, what is not. Growing up with a N mom has made me question what normal boundaries are and has given me severe trust issues. -E
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Greetings El,
I am so sorry to hear about the painful and complicated situation you are in. It sounds so stressful.
I just wanted to add to what others observe in that your H's behavior is similar to a drunk trying to stay sober in a cocktail lounge. He had a relapse. No wonder he is defensive. Better yet, it is almost like he is a crack baby who, through no fault of his own, is addicted to crack. It is going to be a long, long road to get him off the "stuff".
I think one of the hardest things to realize is that one really cannot change another person. They have to want to change themselves. This is the A#1 lesson I learned and am still learning. It sounds like he is trying but it's going to be incredibly difficult. Perhaps you can reward him for how long he has gone without contacting them, or allowing them to contact him?? You know, some really basic behavior modification stuff (if he is willing to go along with such a program)? I know you wanted him off cold turkey but that may not be biologically possible.
You may want to look at your responses as well. What can you do with your anger at a relapse besides yell at him (which would affect how honest he can be with you). If you do not yell at him when he messes up, he can be more open. You can express your disappointment but also find some encouragement to do better next time, perhaps.
Perhaps I sound a little pollyanna in an incredibly abusive situation. But try to take a step back if you can. I hope this helps a little bit. Hang in there. Seeker.
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Hi el123,
Wanted to chime in to share with you the extent to which your dilemma can lead..the picture is not very pretty and it happened to me, recently.
What Write and Bunny have written is all absolutely spot on as responses to your situation. You need counselling, both of you. I am now in the process of being divorced from my wife as a direct result of N toxic/fusional relationship with my N mother and my N father. They have been screwing up my life with their crazy making until I ended the relationship with them...
Naturally they hated my wife, which must be the position you are in now. My parents are french ( thereby latin in culture and very dramatic!). I get the impression from reading you and clues of them being in the restaurant industry that they could be Italian or Greek..if so we can explore how culture and its expectations and traditions can complicate or further flavour ( meant sarcastically!) family dysfunction.
My ex wife wanted to buy a farm, actually an estate where we planned on living for the rest of our lives. I had misgivings about this whole venture because of my parents' Nism ( which at the time I had defined without an appellation)..one night and surrounded by lawyers demanding that my parents " keep control of everything", I stormed out of the house determined not to live like that anymore. I had had it with the control, especially with money, that my parents constantly exerted.
At home and after a heated discussion, I gave into my wife's infatuation with the property..I remember her disbelief at how absolutely rotten and controlling my N parents could be. I warned her repeatedly that all of this was going to turn to mud..AND IT DID! I still get very frustrated and sad, when I remember my ex-wife's self assurance when dealing with my parents...I still get very angry that while they were "nice" to her, they were talking behind her back and ruining things for her and us. My N mother shouted at me when our conflict began how I was not the same person since I had met her and the like. The sound of that still resonates off my neurons and drives me crazy with regret some days..
When I decided I'd had enough of " the game" I was not even willing to become an "unwilling player" even. My mind was made up that my first loyalty was to my wife.
Many times I felt the temptation, like your husband, to remain loyal to my captors...today and after everything that has happened, I still have days like today ( today is my N father's birthday) when I want to pick up the phone and go running back to the familiar ground of dysfunction. Thank God I won't...it is something I cannot do any longer. I am "free" so to speak, in that I have completely severed my relationship to any of my N family. They are living in a dreamworld, well enclosed, with its own rules..secret and silent...people..respectable well educated and sane people are unwilling to believe that my N family is that way..but I know you can. More importantly, at this stage of the game I want to say that I believe you!
Dear girl, you are living in a terrible unhealthy environment and you must not stay there. Your husband has slipped up by running back to them while you were away..forgive him for that and get back on track to save your marriage if you truly love/respect/are committed to each other and your children. Break the cycle..be bold and stick to your guns. Be willing to lose out on some level because your terrible manipulative in laws could lie and be believed about everything and anything.
If you are like my wife, although you are sane, you may find you are not fighting on your home turf. You are caught in the middle of a game, the rules of which might be familiar to you because of your own N family connection..but it is a new game you are playing. Are you willing to bend over more than backward to remain in this game? Is it worth it to you to spend the rest of your life catering to them or else?.....
My ex wife thought she was strong...I am happy that throughout the struggle I stayed on course with her, but my N parents' constant attacks literally drove her crazy. I kept telling her, especially near the end when all was lost ( as a result of a very N slander campaign!) let's just salvage what we can and get away from these people, i've lived this all my life, I know these people...she wouldn't listen.
On my side, that is in my own desperation and loneliness, I found myself unable to cope any longer with the power struggle going on between my parents and her. It's very complicated to explain, as in all fucked up relationships there are many twists and turns...but the end result of being married to a guy like me and your husband IS...it's not YOUR fault. Deal with what you can, keep it sane, keep it honest and REFUSE to play the game. Ultimatums at this stage of the game are a 50/50 gamble, I would suggest that you do not use them, because you have made a deal to cut them out of your life. It was terribly difficult for me to "abandon" my N family but I realized I had to ...and I am still today committed to this..despite my wife not being there any longer.
To an extent I am a victim of N destructive parenting...but in truth I was a willing and an unwilling participant until I saw that leaving them once and for all was the only option.
It is imperative that you save yourself and your children. Thank God I had none with my wife.
One day, your husband might realize like me that truth and peace will be found in his admitting that he is hooked on a very toxic relationship with his N family. The outcome of his breaking free from all that will be a life that truly belongs to him. Some things in life are worth fighting for..there will be an awful lot of pain involved in your breaking away from this madness but you (pl.) must.
At one point in everyone's life I believe it becomes impossible in fact unliveable to run away from the truth..
wish I could write more but I have to go...
Much love and comprehension,
Nic :)
NB// please not my signature hereunder...
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I see your point, bunny. But HE is the one who said that he wanted to cut them off to begin with. Are you saying that it sounds like there's no hope here? That there's no chance for change? I do have an appointment with my therapist on Saturday and so does my H.
Learning, thank you for saying it sounds like I'm taking the right steps. I'm so confused right now that this really helps.
MM, I think I will get call block. H would have to get it at work too, though (not sure if he can there. He has his own office and phone but not sure if they allow it there. I'll see about that). Moving doesn't sound half bad and yes, I have thought of it but my daughter is in school and the other two have little friends here and all of the people I love live here so that would be worse for me I think. Yes, he does have redeeming qualities. That's the thing that gets me! It would be so easy if he was a complete a*h*, ya know? But he's not! He took a week off of work so that I could visit my best friend in Paris. Didn't complain about the money. He helps with the kids. He encourages me in my writing (I'm writing a book). Even bought me a comfortable computer chair and carefully filed all my pages in a neat way so that I could check to see how many pages/words I had, he is so so wonderful in so many ways! Almost everyone who meets him/knows him tells me what a nice guy he is. And he really can be! 90 percent of the time he is a sweetheart. And he's the father of my children and they love him and he loves them. He helps out with them, etc. I don't want a divorce! I want things to work out SO BADLY!!! I just don't know how to trust him after all of this and he's got issues from his past (but he's working on them in therapy). I'm so confused and don't know what to do. One minute I think that I can't stand another day with him and the next minute I just want to hug him and tell him that we'll work it out together. He tells me that he loves me all the time. He has never cheated on me or hurt me physically or done anything so outrageous that I could say "ok, this is it". Now I'm rambling. I think I need help figuring out what to do. What is normal, what is not. Growing up with a N mom has made me question what normal boundaries are and has given me severe trust issues. -E
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I see your point, bunny. But HE is the one who said that he wanted to cut them off to begin with. Are you saying that it sounds like there's no hope here? That there's no chance for change? I do have an appointment with my therapist on Saturday and so does my H.
Can you talk to the therapist(s) on the phone before Saturday? This is an emergency.
It doesn't make it more viable if it was your husband's idea. And if his idea was to cut them off cold turkey, it was bound to fail. He would need *massive* support and professional assistance to get through even a few days without his mother and brother. He'd have to see a therapist very often and be able to phone the therapist. He might need to go to CODA (codependency) 12-step meetings so he could have support every day. I expect this would last for at least a year, maybe longer. There is no quick solution here.
If you don't want to divorce him, then I suggest intensive marriage counseling and individual therapy, as often as you can manage it. As someone else wisely said, his mother/brother are like a drug. He has expressed an intention of kicking the drug but that's a far cry from being able to do it.
bunny
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seeker, thanks for the encouraging words. I can really relate to what you say about my H being like an addict. That's exactly what it feels like. I know that I cannot change him, that he has to want to change. He says that he does. Has even entered into therapy in order to do this. I'm so glad that you wrote that I may want to look at my own reactions too. I do get extremely angry when he backtracks. He tells me that he didn't tell me that his BIL called because he was afraid of my reaction. And, you're right, I didn't respond very well. I got really angry and then we got into a fight and I cried myself to sleep on the couch. This helps. Thanks
Nic, Yes you are right. We are both in counseling. Your situation sounds unbelieveably painful and I'm glad to hear that you have come through it healthier than ever. There seem to be a few differences in our stories My MIL had come to really like me. In fact, said that I was her 'best friend' and so did my BIL. In fact, I'm pretty sure that my BIL has had romantic feelings for me. Other people even said they thought it seemed that way too (not that anything would ever come of it, though). In hindsight I realize that I was probably just a great source of supply. Also my H knows that his mom and brother are toxic. He does fall in their manipulative traps but at the same time knows and says that he just needs to avoid them. He tells both me and our therapist this and means it. Are you saying that you think that there's no hope in this? I know that I cannot change him but he has made dramatic improvements. I want to focus on the improvements but when a slip up happens, I freak. -E
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Something that I did not mention before was when H's brother called, and told my H to call his mother my H did call her. But when he spoke to her he told her in no uncertain terms that he wanted space from her and from his brother. It wasn't just a social call to shoot the s**t. He used it as an opportunity to set some type of boundaries with her which she and BIL cannot seem to respect.
Bunny, yes I guess I could call my therapist before Saturday. You are right that this is very important.
I know that I probably sound very flighty and that's cause it's how I feel. My feelings keep changing on this. -E
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Hi el,
No i'm not saying that your situation is hopeless, absolutely not! We obviously don't have the same twists and turns..as this moves along though anything could happen because it is a "core" event. It touches the center of both your lives and the pressure of breaking free from such relationships can become literally unbearable. A situation such as yours and mine will bring you to the very core of who you both are. It's a toughy and I wish both of you the strength and fortitude to deal with all the aspects. Above all, it is a situation requiring tons of patience.
I'm happy that your inlaws though of you as their best friend etc., my ex wife was quite admired also until it was thought that everything could be blamed on her..she was the stranger.
I can't describe to you how terrible misguided loyalty feels. My Nparents had expectations of me that went far beyond the reasonable..it is something that one feels because it almost never is verbally expressed.
Again, Bunny is correct in encouraging you to be intensely counselled during this period. Dealing with someone else's mental illness is very difficult..your N in-laws have no clue that what they are doing is morally illegal!
Stick to the truth, as best as you can conceive and understand it.
Yes it is difficult to cut off your family. I've seen many therapists prescribe this very medicine to their patients with varying results, most of them very positive. You have one life to live and It's YOurs!
The circumstances you are in and I am in are very unusual! What you are living is NOT normal, very few people beyond your therapist and a few close friends can understand what is going on let alone conceive of it. It's important to get out of it in a healthy way, even if you could lose your home etc.
Very few Ns realize that their actions will inevitably come back to haunt them. they are to be pitied in that sense. In the meantime though, I would suggest you do everything you can to save yourselves even if it hurts. It will be better ultimately..
sorry if i somehow implied that things were hopeless, it wasn't my intention.
Nic :)
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Something that I did not mention before was when H's brother called, and told my H to call his mother my H did call her. But when he spoke to her he told her in no uncertain terms that he wanted space from her and from his brother. It wasn't just a social call to shoot the s**t. He used it as an opportunity to set some type of boundaries with her which she and BIL cannot seem to respect.
If he called her to set boundaries, that is still not going cold turkey. In fact, he crossed his own boundary right there. It's more like a relationship addict finding "reasons" to call their partner, even to scream at them or argue just to hear their voice.
I urge you to call your therapist tomorrow because you could use some grounding and support.
bunny
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Nic, I guess what I was asking when I asked if things were hopeless is can a situation like mine ever 'work'? Can we ever have a healthy enough relationship to continue it or is divorce usually the ultimate end? I just want things to work out so badly. It's so hard when some of my own needs go unmet, though. but regardless, I still want to be married to him. I love him and my kids do as well. I'll do whatever it takes to try at least. My therapist thinks that we can work things through. But what do you think? I really value your opinion since you have been through this.
bunny, If he called her to set boundaries, that is still not going cold turkey. In fact, he crossed his own boundary right there. It's more like a relationship addict finding "reasons" to call their partner, even to scream at them or argue just to hear their voice.
I know he still didn't go 'cold turkey' but I think that it was more the other way around here. It was the N's in his life that found a reason to call him in order to hear his voice. My H didn't even call his mother on mother's day so he's not finding excuses to call them. They are the ones unable to accept his boundaries. He merely took the bait. I spoke to him last night about this and he said that he gave in and answered the phone when his brother called because his N brother kept calling him (without him answering) so he thought that it might be an 'emergency' (I know, I know). This one particular time he said that he just grabbed the phone without even thinking of it. I know that he still should not have answered it but I do have to say that he truly doesn't want contact with his N family right now. It's his N brother and N mother that are having the difficulty respecting his boundaries. I know that it still is not ideal. I don't need to be convinced of that. And I'll see what I can do with my therapist. -E
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Hi El,
I am so, so sorry this is happening to you. I am glad that you and your husband our in therapy and that you are voicing your issues here at this forum. There are many people here that are so knowledgable and supportive.
Your desire to stay with your husband makes sense to me. I would also try every avenue possible to make it work for the children. As a mother, I am always considering their welfare. One thing I have learned about myself and my relationship with them is that if I am distraught, I am unable to fully meet their emotional needs. I have recently stopped speaking with my parents because I see how they affect me and how that detracts from my ability to be the mother I want to be. I wonder if the emotional drama you are experiencing with your H is creating a similar situation for you? Please forgive me if I am overstepping my bounds here.
Another thought I have had regarding your children is the financial welfare of the family. Mighty Mouse has mentioned taking the checkbook away from your husband, and I think that sounds like a good idea. He has not been responsible with your (yours and his) money. You need a home to take care of your children. It is also in the family's best interest to keep your credit rating positive. It is not fair to you or your children that he is taking risks with these things. Since he seems unable to keep his boundaries with his M and B (at this time), maybe you should control all the finances.
El-these are just ideas. I am not in your situation. I really hope this all works out for you.
Bless You,
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what I was asking when I asked if things were hopeless is can a situation like mine ever 'work'? Can we ever have a healthy enough relationship to continue it or is divorce usually the ultimate end? I just want things to work out so badly. It's so hard when some of my own needs go unmet, though. but regardless, I still want to be married to him. I love him and my kids do as well. I'll do whatever it takes to try at least. My therapist thinks that we can work things through.
can your situation work?
- well it's not working now is it, so something needs to change.
I'm not getting divorced, but neither am I going to live with h.
Why not mentally separate yourself from your marriage and your children, to you the person you are without these considerations? Can you still do that? What do you think then?
I despair when I hear therapists proscribing outcomes ( assuming this is what they said, not what you heard )
A therapist can't possibly know whether you can 'work things through' or what is the best outcome, only facilitate your working that out for yourself.
( by the way I've noticed that there are a number of dodgy counsellors here in the US where religion features in the therapy and there's pressure to preserve the 'sanctity of marriage' or a definition of 'the family' )
I would NEVER put myself in couple counselling with anyone who hadn't already done personal therapy on their own issues; joint therapy can put a lot of pressure on the partner of someone who's really screwed up.
If you have a chaotic unreliable partner/ extended family that's 'crazy-making' enough, without it extending into therapy.
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Let me put it into a few nutshells:
(1) Between your H and his family there are no boundaries. He would like to have boundaries, but he doesn't yet have them. It takes months or years of practice to develop the boundaries required here. You can muse about who crossed the boundary first during your holiday, but the bottom line is that there are no boundaries.
(2) Your husband is massively ambivalent about whether he wants to cut off these people. Sometimes he definitely wants to. Other times he wants to return to them. It would be unrealistic not to see his ambivalence here.
(3) Taking what people say and do at face value is going to slow down progress in repairing the marriage. Your husband will say a lot of things that are contradictory or else what you want to hear. Then you'll be "shocked" when he does the opposite of what he said. If you realize that he is regressed a lot of the time, his words are just a mask of adult competency. You might be observant of when he or you are regressing into a child-like state. And you want to see things metaphorically rather than literally. For instance, the BIL is a millionaire but expects H to pay bills. This is symbolic of the BIL's feeling of emotional impoverishment, regression, helplessness, no boundaries, and a bunch of other things. When you understand the symbols, things won't seem so confusing.
(4) The reason your H can't help you when you're upset is that he regresses instantly and feels helpless, angry, resentful, and frightened (traumatized). It's not that he doesn't care. He just goes into survival mode. He is actually creating a boundary the only way he can! This is bad for a marriage, and the therapist must work on this. But it's not all about him. This is also in my marriage and we've been working on it for *years*. It's not an overnight fix.
(5) If you love your H, things can get better if you'll invest in the therapy time and expense. And you need a competent therapist, one who doesn't advise cutting off a family cold turkey. Because that is an easy suggestion that you could get from anyone on the street. I'm assuming the therapist made an error, they can make mistakes like anyone else.
bunny
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New day, new emotions. I feel that I need to clarify myself. Yesterday I was completely distraught, jet lagged and still in the emotions of the fight from the night before. Today I feel more clear headed and realized that I may have misrepresented my situation somewhat. I have to say that when MIL and BIL did most of the damage (when 1st child was born, yelling, stuff that I wrote of in the initial post) was about 10 years ago. Especially when my H worked for his mom (He was attending school at the time as well). He now does not work for his mother. He has not worked for her for over 6 years. He has a good job/ salary, etc. He's a computer architect (I'm sorry but I forgot who asked this). But at that time he was financially dependent somewhat on his mother as she was also his boss. Also, my MIL used to not like me so much but eventually began to like me and then, the past couple of years, I was what she considered her "best friend". Also, my H and his family are of Asian origin and family dynamics are culturally different and play a role in this dynamic I believe.
Ok, now to a few months ago. My BIL somehow convinced my H that he did not have enough to pay their M what he owed. He told my H that his money was all tied up and that he needed help (big lie but he's a master manipulator). He told my H that if my H didn't help him out by paying the bills that their M would have no food, etc. Basically guilted my H into it. Yes, my H should have seen the lie and yes, probably his dysfunction prevented him. Anyways, my H told his B that he did not want to pay and apparently they got into a huge fight over it but my H reluctantly DID pay. He kept the info from me. When I found out about it, I freaked out and my H got into a big blow out with his B telling him that he never wanted to speak to him again and he would not give another cent towards it. After this incident, my H decided there was a big problem (lightbulb went off in his head). This situation in a way was a blessing in disguise as it made my H see how dysfunctional his family really was. Before this he wasn't quite as clear about it. He put himself in therapy, didn't talk to his family for almost two months and made dramatic improvements. HE decided, ON HIS OWN, to cut his family off cold turkey. The therapist said that he thought it was the correct path for him. The therapist did not order him to do it. I cannot stress this point enough, my H, through his own free will, decided to cut out his family cold turkey.
What happened while I way away in France last week was the first time he had spoken to his B or M in almost 2 months. That was big for my H. He ADMITS that he shouldn't have done it and does not want to speak to them. He is not unlike a lot of others on this board who are having a tough time cutting off the N's in their lives.
He has improved SIGNIFICANTLY with the enmeshment within his family of origin. He never, ever lets them say anything remotely negative about me or the kids. A long time ago, he would not have done this. He has improved a lot.
How is he different from others on this board who are trying to cut out unhealthy N's from their lives? His boundaries have improved significantly with his B and M. BTW, he may post here. He really recognizes that he has problems and is actively working on them.
Learning, write, and bunny, thank you so much for your kind and thought provoking input. I think that I will control the checkbook from now on. Great idea. And yes, bunny I recognize the dysfunction that he has when he regresses when I'm upset. He recognizes this as well. This is one of the things he is presently working on in therapy. I know it will take a long time and may even be impossible. But I feel that I need to give it everything I've got. Maybe I'm naive, stupid, completely a fool. I don't know. But again I feel the need to ask how he is unlike many on this board who have trouble cutting out N's from their lives? I would write more but I need to run for now. -E
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Forgot to add that our therapist did encourage H to cut his family out cold turkey and that he doesn't usually advise this but it was after H himself decided to do this. He was not swayed to do this. -E
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E,
Okay. Your husband wants to cut them off but he had a slip . So it may be a simple matter of forgiveness and finding better strategies to prevent any further entry into your home by phone, email or letter. If you can think of other practical measures to guard your home and assets, good idea.
bunny
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bunny, so glad that you wrote this. For you to say this means a lot as I feel as though we've gone around in circles with my confusing postings and I apologize for that. I know that my H is trying and improving significantly. I freak when I think that things may go back to where they were. I also have major trust issues so any type of dishonesty on H's part makes me crazy. Ironically, because of my reaction, it's harder for him to be honest about certain things. Take care, -E
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Hi el123,
Oh so your in-laws are Asian....they worship their ancestors you know! :) so i guess you've summized how closely knit such families can be. It is often prescribed to completely disengage from relationships with Ns..the consequences of this vary but there is almost if not always a negative reaction by the N. At worse rage..at best a solid guilt trip!
I'm happy you want to stay with your husband. It is quite evident that he is receptive to your dialogue with him and obvious that he has made good headway in dealing with your present predicament.
In my case, my ex-wife took a severe beating from my Nparents..i'm very upset about this because nobody deserves to be wiped off the map like she has been by anybody. I've always thought along the lines of this familiar saying: Every man is my superior. Ns think they are superior to every other man..they know everything, they are the victims of everything and they could never possibly ever be wrong! Very frustrating to live with this..and until the past two years I was caught in this game, and I played it well in order to survive.
I spoke with my ex sister in law this very afternoon. My ex-wife is literally psychotically depressed and living with her father at present. Terribly paranoid and absolutely unwilling to see anyone expecially a psychiatrist. It was disturbing news for me to hear. Ns can be so horribly destructive. Like most Ns my parents had their dirty work done by other people. Ns cannot be responsible or accountable to anyone but themselves, and even then in a weird and distorted way. I told my ex SIL that yes, indeed, my Nparents were/are to blame for everything that has happened in the past two years, that yes indeed my marriage was over.
I have someone in my life now and it's time, once again :roll: , to move on. After forty years of living with these crazy Ns, trying to create boundaries, trying not to make mistakes, the whole shabang, i had to break free and start anew in an environment where they ( the Ns in my life) would no longer be present in any way, shape or form. It's the only viable option left for me and in my situation. I just can't take Nism anymore.
Regrets...at being once married to someone I still consider tops? No! emphatically not! Blaming my ex-wife for not listening to me and engaging my crazy N parents in this horrible fight? No. My ex-wife knew me inside and out, I told her everything, described my whole life to her before we decided to wed.
Guilt...have been made to feel this way all my life by my N parents who would transmit this to my various intimate partners invevitably and create huge problems for me. So no, no guilt..although I feel it as a reflex..but am fighting it with counter-attacks of self validation.
Shame...same as the guilt, they seem to go together. I am not ashamed of what happened to me, my marriage, my family. It just did. The only way out was to break free, as opposed to occasionally or should I say periodically breaking away..there is a nuance here.
Sorrow..yes, deep sorrow at having been disconnected from my true self for ten years. Sorrow at having lived half-asleep for most of my life. Sorrow at coming to realize at 40 that indeed " to thine own self be true". I'm finding out that this seems to be the cure to shame...loving yourself when no one else does.
Life isn't a recipe..yes you have to be responsible and accountable but living in and with such dysfunction is like being at war. There are no rules at the front, only survival. But I'VE declared an end to the war with myself. In my case, I saw/see/have seen the need to eliminate anything and anyone who ever has had anything to do with my N family. It seems that anything/anyone connected remotely to this sick environment ,where there appears to never be ANY healing, is doomed to spoil. I've come to accept that.
Therefore and as a promise to myself, i've decided that my birthday gift ( b-day june 6th) to myself will be to start anew. I've got to get it right for the second half of my life. It has meant losing out to many things, but there is an up side, there is gain in loss. I really feel that I have A LIFE. I think of Write who so generously wrote to me and said "good things will happen to you Nic!" And i've resolved to let them happen..and it's not easy. Not easy to let go of the programming. It's like all of a sudden realizing there is no Santa Claus. What a deception, I fell for the Santa thing, got over that but then I fell for my N parent's narcissistic bullshit! :x
So, to myself I say: Nic! forgive yourself once and for all. Many things are out of your control...will you accept that once and for all!!! And for God's sake Nic, stop thinking happiness, love ,sex, success, intimacy, peace and everything good is for everybody else but you! Live and cultivate safety, stop taking yourself so seriously, enjoy!YOU'RE ALLOWED already!!!!
See, this is the dialogue of a kid brought up in guilt and shame. And i'm so f___in' sick of it.
So el, i know how horrible you must feel sometimes, I really do. You seem to be very much in love and committed to your husband and children. Give it all you've got, but be kind to yourself in the process. I've failed to do that so many times. I'm resolved to stop trying to be perfect..i'm seeking balance and peace. I never imagined it would be so difficult to achieve.
I so wish you the very best. I'm sure good things will happen to you too! Stick to the truth and you can't go wrong.
All the best to you and yours,
Nic :)
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Nic,
I can tell by your posts that you have been through a lot and you seem to have gained much from your trials.
It is often prescribed to completely disengage from relationships with Ns..the consequences of this vary but there is almost if not always a negative reaction by the N. At worse rage..at best a solid guilt trip!
My H has been guilted his whole life and this is no exception! They are trying to guilt him into being at their beck and call. For the first time in his life, he's refusing to take the bait. I'm so greatful that he came to this on his own. What happened with the money situation was a blessing in disguise as before that he wanted contact with them to some extent. He now wants nothing to do with them. Sees the sickness as it is.
Your bad feelings about your situation with your ex and her depression makes the romantic in me wonder if you could ever try to make it work with her again? Now that you've cut off the unhealthy N's in your life? I know that you said that you have someone in your life right now but I still wonder about it nevertheless. I mean, what would life be like for you if you could live with her again without the poison of the N's destroying things? You still seem to highly value your ex W.
So, to myself I say: Nic! forgive yourself once and for all. Many things are out of your control...will you accept that once and for all!!! And for God's sake Nic, stop thinking happiness, love ,sex, success, intimacy, peace and everything good is for everybody else but you! Live and cultivate safety, stop taking yourself so seriously, enjoy!YOU'RE ALLOWED already!!!!
I can relate to this SO MUCH!! You deserve ALL the good that life has to offer. I believe that God/buddha/Krishna/Muhammed (whatever name you put on it) wants joy for us all. I dont' believe that we are meant to be unhappy here. That being unhappy or feeling guilt, shame, etc is there to tell us something. A communication, if you will. So that we can change, do something in order to feel what we are intended to, happiness. These horrible times and feelings can ultimately bring joy if we are receptive enough. I know this sounds very metaphysical and maybe corny but I truly believe this.
Thank you for your very insightful post. I wish you the best as well and can say that you have a LOT of courage and STRENGtH to do what you've done when you've cut off the N's. I know, I'm still working on it with my N mom. You are doing the best thing for yourself and for them too. It sounds like you are coming out of a very trying, dark period in your life and I applaud you for all you have achieved. Take care, -E