Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: IsabellaRose on November 24, 2007, 11:50:42 AM
-
We endeavor to show love and support and to share our insights and experience- this is a unique resource and I have found it to be of immeasurable help in my journey. We are all imperfect, especially me, and it is extremely easy to find fault with one's self and others, especially with one's thoughts. Everyone has surprising thoughts that may never be acted upon. It is really wonderful to have a place with loving generous wise people to share those things which cannot always be understood by people who have not had the same experiences, without fear of being misunderstood. There are many fine resources and a lot of great information available on this unique process works so well, and how we give each other support. I hope to read your story soon.
Love,
Changing
-----------------------------------------
I can understand giving support and encouraging one another. I was directed to this board from visiting another site. Support, validation, empathy, compassion are all important..... but so is TOUGH LOVE. And when someone says something completely inappropriate, hostile, dangerous and is at risk of harming themselves or others, it is our duty to come together in community and point it out.
Laura mentioned several times throughout her post that her daughter was pregnant and she wanted to physcially HURT HER ....BADLY....
This is not acceptable in any circumstance would you not agree? ((Hugs)), You go girl, You're wonderful, It will get better etc. are not appropriate responses to someone wanting to beat her daughters head in. I was waiting patiently for several days to see if someone, anyone on this board would have the courage to point out the error in thinking. Since no one did, i stepped up to the plate. My objective was not to critize Laura, but offer critiscm about her morbid thoughts and advise her to seek out counselling/therapy IMMEDIATELY since it is obvious she has issues managing anger.
Thank you.
-
I want to address the point that thoughts don't mean that the person WILL do anything. Thoughts and actions are two different things.
We can express all kinds of thoughts here.I have wanted to kill my M(and other people's M's) with my marble coffee table.
I think that Laura expressing wanting to hurt her D(pregnant or not) does not mean that she will.
I think that you are confusing the difference between thoughts and actions. That is how I see it,anyway. Ami
-
Isabella Rose,
Please try to understand that most of the people on this forum have 'had the courage' in the past to point out lots of things - such as...they've been abused as children, or they've been raped, or they've got an N-crazy mother/husband/partner or whatever (to the medical profession, the police, psychological counsellors, and so on). The outcome of being that courageous has often been that they have been ridiculed, or ignored, or imprisoned, etc. It is not lack of courage now that makes people not speak out, on all kinds of threads, not just the one that you refer to. It is experience. Please don't try to suggest that you are the only courageous one here. People have all kinds of problems, and we are all working through them as best we can. We do not 'have a duty' here to do anything at all other than listen to people unburden themselves, after they have had the misfortune to be the victims of N's, and HELP IF WE CAN.
If your objective was not to criticise Laura, but 'to offer criticism about her morbid thoughts', then you did it very badly, IMO. It didn't read like that to me.
Changing, IMO, is one of the most caring people on this forum, who is supportive of everyone! She offered that support to you, too. Perhaps you'd like to respond to that?
As Changing and Ami say, saying something and acting on it are two extremely different things.
Have you ever seen the film 'Bambi'? At one point in it, Bambi's rabbit friend, Thumper, is very tactless, and so Thumper's mother tells him 'If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'.
Words of wisdom from a children's cartoon.
Janet
-
Isabella:
I think you may have had a point, somewhere.... but you never really came through with it, did you?
Feelings aren't right or wrong they just are.
I also don't think being pregnant gives a woman the right to treat people like crap.
That esp goes for smart assed teenagers, living under their parents roof refusing to take a word of advice.
If she's as big a girl as she keeps saying she is.... she can get a job and move out on her own where her mama won't be tempted to offer advice. That way she won't have to keep flinging the advice back into her mama's face, KWIM?
Is it your intention to stick around and judge boardmember's thoughts, when they're angry and venting?
If so... let me know how that works out for ya.
-
when someone says something completely inappropriate, hostile, dangerous and is at risk of harming themselves or others, it is our duty to come together in community and point it out
Isabella, are you feeling righteous? How can we "come together" with someone we don't know?
I would like it if you would tell your OWN story. That is really the best way to begin in a forum like this.
Not coming on board unregistered, slinging judgement and condemnation. It's dramatic, but we're not blind.
We all get to know each other and learn each other's voices and make our own decisions about what's drama
and what's not.
We have different voices here and express ourselves in a lot of different ways.
Laura was feeling extremely hurt. No point judging hurt. We feel the way we feel.
So she vented aggressively. I sincerely doubt she's made for the hospital with a cleaver.
Until you have shared your own issues, it's helpful to not introduce yourself
by making a billboard of someone else's, imo.
How about taking the focus off Laura and putting it on Isabella Rose?
Hopalong
-
If I may offer a comment or two....
My sense is that Dr. Grossman monitors this Message Board to ensure that it is a safe place for all of us. If anything dangerous should be posted (i.e. threats of violence toward someone else), then Dr. Grossman would have a duty to warn under Tarasoff. I'm not licensed yet and, at the same time, I'm also bound by Tarasoff where I work.
Just my thoughts.
Bones
-
Hi Isabella-
This board cannot be all things to all people. We need to keep the dialogue here at the intended level, of sincere and supportive laypersons giving support and sharing experiences that may be of help to ourselves and to others. Analysis and diagnosis is properly left to professionals in an appropriate setting, as are interventions of a more dramatic sort. We provide important service and support to each other here, though, that cannot be found anywhere else, I believe, and so we make our best effort to do what we do here in an appropriate manner. To attempt to act as professional in a clinical manner and provide any sort of analysis or diagnosis could be harmful, and seems more than a bit ridiculous to me. I am simply not trained to make a judgement about someone over the internet! What we have have here does not compete with professional care- we are mutually beneficial, like diet and exercise, both with important functions integral to health.
As I said, I am not a mental health professional, nor do I claim to be. I can offer whatever support and information that I have to give here, as well as sharing my story-sometimes it does not fit the situation, or is simply wrong, and the recipient is not compelled to nor under any obligation to answer my post or ponder my suggestions- they can simply compost what does not fit!! This may well be true of your initial offerings as well- some may fit to some and not to others. The person seeking support may compost anyone's posts as they see fit, including and especially mine. The object here is to help each other the best that we can in the manner that is appropriate here, and it works! I cannot take the stance that I am somehow all-knowing and capable of appropriately judging my friends here and dispense criticism and judgements as to their mental state or make any sort of diagnosis- that might well indicate a pathology of my own which could not be properly addressed here, but might require ongoing professional treatment. Criticism off -the- cuff from amateurs is something that one can get in abundance anywhere, is often quite worthless, and may be exceedingly harmful in its intent and effect. So whatever posts you may make could never be taken as professional prescriptions, but could be composted at will, without malice by its intended recipient. And you are free to do the same of course to any posts that you find inappropriate(especially with my posts!)
As per the post from me that you refer to, I asked about your story and your experiences, that might well give another point of view. As we are not psychiatrists here, and could not properly provide analysis and medication, etc., in this setting, our role is by definition limited. Yet this role is uniquely important to many of us who find the freedom to express our own feelings, support and kindness here invaluable. Please share your own feelings about your personal experiences, if you are ready, and remember that we are not here to judge and correct you- that is someone else's job! So feel free to share your own unique life experience- you need not take the burden of diagnosis and intervention upon yourself, and in fact, that is best left to professionals. And compost this post if it does not fit!!!! We will all do the same on this board!!!! Your sharing is the key- it is in this that we distinguish ourselves, and provide a unique and loving service.
As for any diagnosing or prognosticating on any significant level- that is for Dr. Grossman and his peers to provide! So you can relax and focus your energies on areas of your own life that could benefit from support and sharing- there is no pressing need to correct each other here (you can read about how the Board functions as well as other helpful information elsewhere on this site- we do not replace professional counseling).Please share your story and experiences if you wish. And please compost this post if it doesn't fit!!
Love,
Changing
-
You would like to know my story? Here it is:
I am the oldest daughter of 3. My N mother has had 2 miserable marriages. I have only ADMITTED that my mother is a N this last 3 years . Previously I just thought I was a bad daughter and this was NORMAL mother/daughter angst! She was/is manipulative, controlling, hot-tempered, vain...a classic narcissist...My parents divorced when I was 8. My N-mom remarried when I was 12. The entire time they dated, they constantly fought. When she got engaged, my sister and I begged her not to marry him. But my grandmother told me to shut my mouth b/c I would leave home in a few years and " do you really want to leave your mother all alone?"...you know what's coming....the next yrs of my life were a living hell until i finally had enough money saved to move out!
From the time i was 12-20, every Saturday was spent cleaning my mother's castle from top to bottom. Now that i think about it, i cannot remember WHERE she was during these times..,.but it certainly wasn't with her sleeves rolled up scrubbing away with us.
Noooooooooooo....not the queen dame. In the beginning, she was always PERCHED above us, coming up behind us with her white glove makign sure we dusted and cleaned to her "satisfaction". By the time I was 15, her methods had been drilled into me, such that she happily left to get her hair and nails done.
Whats worse, is that both she and my stepfather took a sick twisted pleasure in not only assigning chores, but making them as UNPLEASANT as possible. Floors had to be washed - but NO MOPS....hands and knees only. Dishes had to be washed....but NO DISHWASHER. Everything had to be washed by hand. So the dishwasher was brand spanking NEW 10 yrs after it was purchased. When i left home, i caught Nmom using the DW and putting pots in it... and she smirked when i commented as to WHY i could not use it all those years. NO RUBBER GLOVES - my mother insisted these were VAIN. Only "queens" and "princesses" used them and so my skin was constantly dry and itching from the dishwater and harsh chemicals. Then she would scold me for having excema (only "dirty people" had excema).
My father was not really involved in my life after the divorce. My sister and I really didn't want to visit him. My mother would force us to visit him and say "you must see him. he is your father"...then just before she would drop us off she would say "make sure he doesn't molest you" in this whiney sing-song voice. He never did or would lay a hand on us (i know this now) but as a child I was always terrified of him whenever he would give me a hug or kiss. My mother claims it was all out of "concern" for us and now she even denies saying any of it and tells me that her greatest regret was "encouraging" our relationship with him...rofl
She has a knack for taking ANY situation and twisting it around so you are at fault and you end up apoligizing for making HER feel bad. She has NEVER ONCE apologized for anything to anyone ever. If she does say sorry, its in the most slimey most ingenious, "i'm sorry, you feel like that...i'm sorry you forced me to do x"...puke!
My entire life i have never felt worthy enough or that she really loved me.... The crazy thing was, when I was in my mother's good graces, she made me feel like a million dollars. But if I ever did anything to make her lose face in public (always so consumed with how things LOOKED) - watch out! Her wrath was swift and severe. She could harbor a grudge for months and years on end.
I was so enmeshed with my Nmother that I was the one who sat around that table with her....for years. It wasn't so much (for me) to talk about other family members negatively, it seemed more like self-preservation. I always thought she was trying to figure out LIFE...and it took me a lonnnngggg time to come to grips with her venom and not wishing others well. It was like 'connecting the dots' for me. Evil words, evil wishes, pidgeon-holing,.....catching the patterns over time. There was a lot of what I call 'Christian Voodoo' in it....(referring to all the right words and morality and Scripture etc thrown in as 'cover') This enmeshment with her started so early, I can't sort how it came to be. I ALWAYS felt the need to 'confess', 'report', be accountable for everything and everyone in the family. Ugh. I never felt like I had a 'wicked heart' (though accused of it when I, too, would rage out of proportion at times. It always mystified me, too!) I NEVER wished anyone ill, I just wanted to 'understand' and because of her isolating me from LIFE (religion, politics, parochial schools, no friends, no music, censored books), she was my only source of 'information'. Ugh....I feel horrible in participating in this Evil before God opened my eyes. (Little did she know that all she 'taught' me...the RightThings for the WrongReasons....ultimately worked against her. The God I came to know and love was not the same one she tooted her horn about.)
If anyone critized my mother my job was to immediately came to her defence! The few times I stepped out of line and stood up to her I was immediately shot down and told to "shut your big fat mouth...when you open your mouth your brains fall out...you don't have a heart...you are killing me...you will be sorry...you have your father's bad genes....you are so stupid, selfish, negative...." the list went on and on as I was stripped naked. So I rarely stepped out of line. I always sympathized with her "pain", being alone, wondering out loud with her why every relationship she ever had ended in conflict.
When I got married the only thing I asked from my mother was for her to sing on my wedding day (she used to be a professional singer). She said she would and practised 3 months. At the reception, my mother never sang...she told me it was because "your f*n MIL told me there wasn't enough time for the song and she canceled me". I was so upset at my MIL! My MIL denyed it and said it was my mother who changed her mind at the last minute and cancelled the song. Then mother switched her tune and said, she couldn't sing b/c the DJ didn't que up her music properly....a few yrs later she admitted that she didn't want to sing....but did she EVER aplogize to my MIL? NOoooooooooooooooooooooo!
The next few years were peaceful as both my mother and father could be in the same room for family functions. It was the only time my sister and I ever felt "normal" like our husband's families. Then my father did the UNFORGIVABLE SIN....he retired early and started giving me and my sister money, gifts etc. My mother was furious and said he was bribing us for his love and we had to choose either him or her (another classic N - pathological ENVY)! WHen we refused she did it for us...she told me i was no longer her mother and she was sorry she ever had children and wasted her life on us!
Then she went on her pity-party about how all she ever did was sacrifice, take us to our piano lessons, clean up our shitty diapers...and this is how we repay her??? She DEMANDS RESPECT...and if we won't give it to her, then she's sick and tired of do-do-doing for everyone and getting nothing in return (She only does things with strings attached you see..... she'll scratch my back.... then i must massage her from head to toe)
I finally had enough and I told her what I really though of her brand of "mothering". I cited example after example of how she hurt and used us our entire lives, how she wasn't there for me or my children when I needed her the most. Enraged, she flew off (on her broomstick) and refused to speak to me...for speaking to her in a "tone" and not being respectful enough (i guess the TRUTH is not respectful ...only her lies and fantasies). After that she stopped speaking to me for several months.
During this time I found myself pregnant again. I was so tormented because my mother held onto her grudge even after i apologized for "stepping out of line" over and over and over again. She refused to see me at Christmas, any of my children's birthdays, snubbed me at my own baby shower (b/c my MIL was hosting and my N mother would not step foot inside her home), refused to call me when my baby was born (b/c she was not the FIRST to know), .
Then when my baby was only 3 wks old, I needed surgery.I was so terrified I tried to make peace with my mother before surgery. She was still cold/indifferent so i didn't even bother telling her i was going to have an operation.
3 days later of not eating, not sleeping, i called my mother up and begged her to forgive me. She told me that I would be fine after the operation. Then in the car my mother said it was too bad that it took something like this for me to see how much i needed a mother - how much i needed HER! "Now you see what the natural order of things is" she told me "the only thing I must revere MORE than her is....GOD...." (wow! That's the pedestal she thinks she deserves to be on). I couldn't believe it. My husband was somewhere low on the list . So were my children. She confessed that the operation was an answer to her prayers (sick!) Then my mother told me that i brought everything upon myself with my negative thinking and from being so stressed from not having her in my life. (She really does think highly of herself, no????)
After my operation, when i called my mother, to tell her i would make a full recovery, she said, "That's nice"..."now you are probably going to go back to your old ways". Click. She refused to spend Christmas with us. Ignores her grandchildren. Returns all letters. Refuses to answer phone calls.
Lately, i found out she has been spreading venomous lies about me and my husband to distant relatives (ones i only see every 5-10 yrs). When she was confronted about her gossip, she snapped that it was all TRUE.... when pressed further she claimed that yes, she did exaggerate, but that we deserved it and her actions were fully justified. Now she is denying ever having spread such hate in the first place (which i don't believe since she keeps her mental rolladex updated on every thing anyone has ever told her).
-
Dear Isabella,
I want to say that I am not involved in your issues with Laura. I am not "taking sides in any way" I simply feel very profoundly for how you have suffered.. My heart aches for you-----so much pain. I am speechless. I am so,very sorry. Love Ami
((((((((((Isabella)))))))))))))
-
Ami,
I'm not sure why you do this, but this is the 2nd time it's happened. On one hand you seem to be coming to my defense and validating me, and then, you read what my attacker posts about her own life, and suddenly you jump and say that you are not "involved" in their issues with me...you did this before with jodi and dove too, remember? I'm not sure what the deal is here, but why would you defend me and then in the next breath, in order to sympathize with isabella, reassure her that you are not involved in the issues with her and me. please explain if you will.
I want to address the point that thoughts don't mean that the person WILL do anything. Thoughts and actions are two different things.
We can express all kinds of thoughts here.I have wanted to kill my M(and other people's M's) with my marble coffee table.
I think that Laura expressing wanting to hurt her D(pregnant or not) does not mean that she will.
I think that you are confusing the difference between thoughts and actions. That is how I see it,anyway. Ami
Dear Isabella,
I want to say that I am not involved in your issues with Laura. I am not "taking sides in any way" I simply feel very profoundly for how you have suffered.. My heart aches for you-----so much pain. I am speechless. I am so,very sorry. Love Ami
((((((((((Isabella)))))))))))))
Isabella, my post to you follows.
Laura
-
Hi Isabella-
It is a shame that your parents, blessed with children who only want to love and be loved, have thrown such a precious opportuniy away- and hurt their innocent daughter in the process. Adding to that a stepfather who may have made a positive difference, instead causing more pain to defenseles youngsters. They all deserve to be clapped in irons and made to scrub your floors for fifty years to life on their knees- it is not the chores, so much as the intentional way that they were used to hurt you that is the real crime here.
Almost equally terrible is the pain inflicted upon you as an adult. It has been hard for me to see that this dynamic in my life is the shame of my N parents, and not mine. I would never even tell anyone about my fractured family, and I guess that I seemed normal enough that no one asked. But I still felt the shame and pain, and did not learn how to think differently about myself and my own rights as an individual. When I opened up here, I was met with acceptance and support, and it truly changed my life and thought patterns.
Now I am in the process of undoing so much that I did wrong, especially an abusive marriage that I thought that I could fix by dint of sheer will. I am so much happier now, and feel that I have just started living again, and am excited about my future. I love what you said about telling the truth to your mother, and her flying off on her broomstick!!! :lol: It worked just like a magic spell!
When I spoke truth to my family and husband, they disappeared as well- its's a good thing to know for self- preservation- they require that the family secret be kept at all costs, including and especially your life and sanity!If you want them to skulk away, simply speak the truth out loud! What a wonderful thing!
You sound as if you have come a long way all on your own,and I hope that you find support and help here that will make the journey easier!!!How cool is it that you have lsweet ittle ones to lavish your love and wisdom on, and do not have to waste yourself on a fruitless pursuit to make your mother OK. You can concentrate on having a happy and healthy home and in pursuing your purpose in life!!! Maybe experience the mothering that was cruelly withheld from you in your own caring love for your babies!Thank you for sharing and best wishes to you and your loved ones. (((((Isabella)))))
Love,
Changing
-
Isabella,
It appears that you and I have very similar backgrounds, although with different names and faces involved. My heart breaks for you, as I too, have walked in similar shoes. You have been through so much that a child never should have had to endure. I am sorry that you had such callous, evil, manipulative, controllers who called themselves "parents" raise you.
I'd like to share with you the similar things that I've been through, but I do not want you to feel that I am minimizing your situation in any way, shape or form, nor am I wanting to turn things back on to "me." I want you to know that i understand a lot of what you have shared with us because I actually lived it.
Isabella,
I'm the oldest daughter of 3 as well. My mother was married twice...the first time to a man who refused to work because he was busy trying to become the next Elvis (grandiose). The second was OCD, OCPD and eventually paranoid/schizophrenic. My mother divorced when I was 3, but dad had visiting rights in which he possibly molested me and/or brother. Remarried when I was 7 and I determined that this man was NOT going to replace my "dream daddy." (first dad who spoiled me rotten to make up for the divorce).
I was abused from the time I was about 10 by my step-dad. my nose was finally broken when he flung me into the wall after I tried to defend myself from his fists. i went to live with my grandma at age 16.
I could reallllllllllllly relate to the whole "white glove" thing, as my step father used white gloves and white lint-free rags to test our dusting of the windowsills (where the sun shone in and always would remain dusty). I spent my childhood literally having to SNEAK food and sneak out of the house to play when my step-dad was not around.
I had a grandfather and step-father standing over me when I'd do dishes, saying "oh quit complaining. you waste more time complaining than if you just did them." of course, once again, like in your situation, WE hAD A DISHWASHER THAT I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO USE!
Along with these chores, my brother and I had to pick up step-father's cigarette butts and chestnuts that stained our skin and we could not miss 1 of them or we had to go back out and do it over again. same with raking leaves, sweeping driveway, etc. i learned to HATE WORK WITH A PASSION! I still struggle with it today.
I was not forced to see my father after the divorces, but I was the one in the family who was a Christian and wanted to walk in love with people, so I stuck by both of them. unfortunately it was paranoid/schiz, ocd, ocpd step dad who tried to get me to LIE to my mother about him being in her neighborhood (she had an order of protection that said he was not to be in the area cause he was a threat to her and my siblings)...the last time I had with stepdad, was when he was supposed to pick up my daughters and me and take us out to eat stacks of hamburgers with him...I got angry and said "how COULD you insist that I lie to mom." he said "it's not really lying. you just don't TELL her." I told him "I will NEVER lie for you or anyone else. Goodbye!" the next time I saw him was in a casket.
She has a knack for taking ANY situation and twisting it around so you are at fault and you end up apoligizing for making HER feel bad. She has NEVER ONCE apologized for anything to anyone ever. If she does say sorry, its in the most slimey most ingenious, "i'm sorry, you feel like that...i'm sorry you forced me to do x"...puke!
here, you described my daughter that i've been telling about. ANy time she is nasty she will say "well, if you would have done what I told you to, I wouldn't HAVE to yell at you." (as though SHE is the parent and I am her child)
As a child, i was doted on pretty much, because I was the one who was mentally 'slow" and had temper tantrums and did poorly in school and socially. i was fed food, crooned to, and i soon learned how to get what i wanted from my mother and grandmother. At tHAT time, I was very very manipulative.
The words i despise even to this day are "YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF" or "I'm gonna KILL YOU!" My mother raised me with those threats and accusations. I have since learned that I will NOT say anything to my child that i am not prepared to carry out. there is a story in the bible about a guy who made a vow to kill the first thing that crossed his path if God would turn things in his favor...he ended up murdering his own daughter. words are POWERFUL. Let's not say anything we wouldn't DO.
I ran into awful stuff at my wedding too, between my controlling foster mother, mother and husband. It was quite a fiasco, so I can relate to that as well!
My mother would say 'DAMN YOU" frequently when she'd get upset at things my brother and I did. I do NOT tell my children that I wish they were never born! EVER.
Then she went on her pity-party about how all she ever did was sacrifice, take us to our piano lessons, clean up our shitty diapers...
I am guilty of replicating this behavior. My own mother played the 'after all I did for you" card with us. Unfortunately that is a hard thing to combat. As a parent, one really feels that her children "owe" her at least a semblance of respect, because INDEED, a mother does a lot for her children.
I do not do things with strings attached, although i've been accused of it by ND.
When my ND told me how she felt about past things where I screwed up, i attentively listened and considered her feelings. I did not DENY, MAKE EXCUSES FOR, BLAME when she shared with me. It was her openness that caused me to really work on me.
i have 4 daughters...first one lived a life of promiscuity that I didn't find out the extent of till recently, since I spent a lot of time dealing with psychological junk in myself with counselors, etc. 18 yr old, pregnant and you know her situation, 13 year old is doing fine but struggles socially a bit, 8 year old tries to be the joker of the family and keep everyone's attention on her.
My mother hasn't been with me for ANY type of surgeries. She lives far away in another state. she has often gone to visit my half-sister who lives not far from me, but NEVEr come here because we are poor and don't live the way she is accustomed to...she's a lawyer and my husband is too much like her 2nd husband...ocd
3 days later of not eating, not sleeping, i called my mother up and begged her to forgive me. She told me that I would be fine after the operation. Then in the car my mother said it was too bad that it took something like this for me to see how much i needed a mother - how much i needed HER! "Now you see what the natural order of things is" she told me "the only thing I must revere MORE than her is....GOD...." (wow! That's the pedestal she thinks she deserves to be on). I couldn't believe it. My husband was somewhere low on the list . So were my children. She confessed that the operation was an answer to her prayers (sick!) Then my mother told me that i brought everything upon myself with my negative thinking and from being so stressed from not having her in my life. (She really does think highly of herself, no????)
Ok, Isabella, this is just WRONG WRONG WRONG! I have not done this to my children at all, except in jest when we were all playing around saying how 'wonderful" we are to each other. As far as telling ANY of my daughters that I was glad they got sick or wounded and that they deserved it, HOW HORRID! I am the person who rushes them to the hospital with serious illnesses when their father says "oh, they'll be fine. the doctor's just gonna tell you it's _________" (he tries to diagnose people himself based on something he read or heard or saw on tv). i almost DIED when he told me "oh you'll be fine" and I turned out to be severely dehydrated with mastitis that was going into a staph infection. I'm not the one who treats my children badly, especially when they are ill or hurt. No way.
I will NOT refuse to spend time with my children unless there are abuses going on toward me when i'm with them. For instance, if I visit my daughter's future mother in law and she verbally abuses me, I will distance myself and then I will choose to possibly opt OUT of a future invitation...that is called setting boundaries and it's healthy.
I do NOT lie. My ND has lied since she could talk, and then, even when a room full of people HEAR what she just said, she will vehemently swear that we are all nuts, she never said that, she didn't mean it, or she was just joking.
Maybe now you will see that my background is similar to yours and that I understand WHY you'd be appalled at someone for thinking mean thoughts and possibly carrying them out. The thing is, those were only feelings that i did NOT express to her nor did I ACT upon them. i do my best to have peace in my household. It is her moodswings and undealt with issues that make life hard. I am already dealing with mine and have been for years.
Again, i'm so sorry you had that sort of past and/or present. I forgive you for misunderstanding my situation and maybe being triggered by it. i applaud you for standing up to me as you probaby want to do with N mother, but I again will assure you that, although i have problems which i admitted readily here, I am not your Nmother nor am I AN N mother in any way, shape or form.
Blessya, Isabella
All God's best to you,
~Laura
-
Dear Laura,
Your heart goes out to Isabella --right? Why did you think that I was "betraying' you when my heart did,also.? Ami
-
When I read Isabella's story, I again felt as if I was her. Her mom is very similar to mine and it invokes great fury in me FOR HER. This is not a "take sides" situation. I can understand why Isabella felt strong emotions at Laura's post. I can also understand why Laura was appalled at the reprimand. Ami, you are within your rights to empathize with Isabella AND love and honor Laura. A lof of us have horrible nmoms. Sometimes it even makes Izzie uncomfortable when we bash our moms because she has issues with her daughter. And now that Laura has issues with her daughter we can unfortunately look at her as another "bad" mom because we have dealt with bad moms our whole life. It is almost like triangulation only with more than three people playing the game.........
We all have been wounded. We all have our issues. Some of us have more than one N. Probably because if we have an N mom we attract N type people. But just like the Autism Spectrum Disorder, I will call this Narcissism Spectrum Disorder. Different levels of N. Different categories. Different strengths. Different weaknesses. Different genders. Different places on our family tree or friendships.....
-
Thank you ,Kelly. I thought long and hard before I posted ,but I saw it the way that you do. I was not "dissing' Laura (in my mind) at all by having empathy for Isabella.
I know that we can be sensitive(I put myself top on this list). So, I can see how Laura might have felt snubbed,but I did not mean to "disrespect' her in any way.
I hope that she sees it like that. I really do. Love Ami
-
Yes, Ami, my heart did and does go out to Isabella for the abuse she suffered. I mean to take NOTHING away from her pain by sharing what I did about my common past.
i appreciate that you did not wish to devalue me in anyway, Ami. I guess you have a different way of displaying empathy and sympathy than I do, and that is ok.
Point is, isabella went through utter HAVOC in her life and has opened up about it and again, I say, my heart goes out to you, Isabella.
I am sorry that I remind people of their N mothers because of my angry feelings or fleeting angry thoughts. I am one who has reported people for abusing their children. I am not an abuser personally, but I have been dealing with some bottled anger at times as many of you know.
~Laura
~Laura
-
Dear Bean-
I think that you are so right, and articulated our purpose wel and succinctlyl- To help each other!
Love and Thanks,
Changing
-
I cannot even image the pain all of you are feeling, I lost my mother when I was 5 and maybe it was a blessing. I know that I have found people on this board that seem to understand my feelings and emotions and certainly do not want to think that I will be attacked for them. Standing up for oneself and attacking are two different things.
Laura, you were quite gracious in sharing your story with Isabella.As was she. I only hope this becomes a friendship of sorts since it sounds like the two of you have so much to share. All of you have helped me so much when I needed it, I hate to see us turning on one another which we can least afford. I know that I always try to be the peacemaker in my family and I feel as if this is a family to me.
Ami, you and I are so similar as trying to be the peacemaker, God bless you.
-
Dear alone
Do you remember your mother at all? Do you remember getting over it? Do you know what she was like?
I'd really appreciate what you can tell me, as I was in the car accident when my daughter was 5 and was gone a year, but had short visits all along.
Thanks
Izzy
-
alone,
I have nothing personally against Isabella at all. I do not know her, other than what she shared, but, now that i've read her story, her feelings about my anger make perfect sense. Anger was something that was very much used as a weapon on her by her dysfunctional mother. I am relieved to know that I was never cruel like that to my children, although admittedly I've made mistakes and had some wrong behaviors in trying to be a "perfect" mom in the past.
No, at this point, the roles are very distorted in my family...the 18 year old treats me as though I'm HER child and she is the N mother. People who have not lived with domineering, controlling, mouth teens, would not really get the gist of what life is like with mine. Daily responses when I correct her for mistreating her sister, go something like "I will do whatever I want. This is my house and I don't have to listen to you." Now, tell me that if you heard that every time you confronted the 18 year old for being mean to her siblings or the pets, you might not feel some real anger and maybe even want to whack the girl. My FEELINGS are justifiable and normal...there were no actions accompanying them whatsoever, which makes me NOT a cruel or N parent, I'd say.
Isabella, i pray you find peace and some supporters in your life who can walk with you through your own healing times.
Blessya,
~Laura
-
Hi Izzy-
My mother left us before I was 5 and I still remember so much of the time before. I remember riding in the car with her, going to the beach, playing "Isadora Duncan" in the backyard while she played the piano, visiting my grandma with her, having my photograph taken with my brother, etc., and many things that she said to me.
Oh Izzy it seems that you are haunted by that fateful year that you were away from your beloved daughter- I am sure that she missed you, but she also knew that you didn't leave like my mother, but were making a courageous effort to get back to her and provide a home. This is what the real crux of the matter is- there is no doubt that she knew that every fiber in you wanted to come home and be a family- and you did, Izzy! And so very well, too. She is lovely and educated and strong enough to have survived a super-N. You did this, you fortified and taught her, she is not lost or damaged, and you need not feel anxiety about what you did after your accident- you should feel proud and content- I am certainly proud of you Izzy. (((((Izzy)))))
Love and the Utmost Respect,
Changing
-
Thank you so much, changing.
You are a doll, and you can remember all that?
My daughter says she doesn't remember anything except for riding me down the street on the back of her tricycle. Yet we had car rides, visits to friends and A&W days and DQ sundae days and movies, dining out, skating, swimmimg. It just surprises me that nothing registered, but then under the circumstances maybe better, as I was walking--that might be the 'block'.
Haunted, yes, but not in a detrimental way--let's say, terribly curious about 5 year old children, as I can remember things too.
I think about a lot of things but they 'don't bring me down'
Love
the convoluted Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Dear Izzy,
I have some very vague memories that I wonder if they are real or not. The only one I am sure of, my mother was going on a date (my dad was overseas in the Korean War and they were still married) and she had taken me to the store across the street to get us cokes (I guess a reward for her not being there) and I had to walk across a busy street with the coke bottles and fell somewhere in the middle. She stood on the side of the street yelling at me to get up, but never came to help (I had to have been 4 or 5 at the time. The next memory was of my great aunt getting the phone call that my mother was dead and her screaming like a banshee. My father returned home for the funeral and to care for us kids (4). My mother had gone to a party with the boyfriend and left on her own...? She fell down, hit her head, and froze to death. The day of the funeral, the boyfriend showed up to make up with my mom, he didn't know obviously. He and my father got into a brawl in the front yard. Those are the only memories I have of my mother, so you can see why I thought it was a blessing. Now in hindsight, I don't know what she suffered to become the person she was.
As children we were always told how fortunate we were that our father kept us and raised us (I know that was hard), but I often felt it was more a badge of honor than the fact he really wanted us.
Changing, I believe if I had the good memories that you had there would be more ability to recall.
Laura, I never felt you attacked anyone on this board and can understand your feelings. So often I say things that if taken in the context they are said, I would be accused of wanting revenge, but I know I will never follow thru and am just venting as were you.
-
Dear Alone-
I am so sorry about the loss of your mother and the sadness of your childhood (((((Alone))))). I pray that you make wonderful memories of love and living for the rest of your life for yourself and others- you deserve it!!!!
Love and Many Hugs,
Changing
-
Changing, I'm so sorry for your loss of a true mother. That must have been a really hard thing to go through and heal from. I'm sure you have already come far in that process.
Izzy, that is such a sad thing to go through in your young life! My heart goes out to you as well.
Alone,
Thank you for validating me. The thing was, I merely "thought" those angry thoughts toward my daughter. I never spoke them out loud nor did I carry through with them.
If anyone has ever seen a movie where a person's thoughts could be heard, we'd all realize that it's a good thing that some of ours are NOT. That's the gift of God...to be able to keep things inside sometimes. It's not only just something that some people do to their detriment (example: she bottles her feelings and needs to learn to express them)...it's often for our own protection.
It was in speaking what i was thinking out loud about my abusive step-father, that got me backhanded and thrown into a wall. Thoughts and feelings are ok and healthy...it's what we do with them that may not be.
Changing, I'm so sorry for your loss of a true mother. That must have been a really hard thing to go through and heal from. I'm sure you have already come far in that process.
Izzy, that is such a sad thing to go through in your young life! My heart goes out to you as well.
~Laura
-
Hi Izzy-
Could you teach me about how to post those snazzy pictures (I don't even know what they are called) at the bottom left hand corner of your posts, after law school finals are over? I would just love to know how (not as smart as you are, so it may take time, but I will apply myself)!
Love From a Technologically Challenged,
Changing
-
My heart reaches out with love, understanding, and compassion, to each and everyone of us who have been hurt so very deeply at the hands of those we loved and needed, with hope for our future.
May God bless us, and guide us, with His grace and mercy; one and all.
Much Love,
Leah
-
CB, you have not lost a voice with me at all. i read what you wrote.
As far as my being upset when someone posts to defend my adversary, of course I'd be upset. Pretty much anyone would be upset when they see a friend being kind to someone who just attacked them. My gosh!
i am not one to stay quiet when someone accuses me of things I haven't thought, felt or said nor when they "Should" me. if I'm guilty, then FINE, I will/have admitted that on posts many times. I've shared my own shortcomings regarding parenting my daughter. I am not absolved from admitting fault of my own.
CB: (I ran across a journal of my husbands that outlined all that he thought about me and wanted to do to me--he felt that writing it and not doing it was okay.
Actually, someone writing in a journal IS ok. It was not written for you to read. Some might say that was a violation of his privacy. I have read my daughter's journal, therefore, I do not agree that it is a violation of privacy at all times, personally. I will say however, something someone once told me. "If you are going to eavesdrop on someone's convo, read their private thoughts, don't be surprised if you find out they are saying negative things about you." In other words, when we read someone's private journal, it makes no sense that we'd be shocked at what we see about us there.
Ya know, in a very real way, this Voicelessness board is a journal of a sort. If any N's in our lives ever came and read this, they'd be SHOCKED at what they read too, I'm certain. it's just how it is.
As far as Isabella's story, I think I expressed how deeply hurt I felt for her. As far as being presumptuous in sharing my own story, similar to hers, that was a matter of opinion. I had already clarified to her that i was not trying to diminish her pain, but only identifying with it, so that she felt that I understood.
That's all for now, CB, but whether or not you/I like what the other one says, with me, you still have a voice.
~Laura
-
Hi CB-
I hope all is well with you! You have always been so fair, just and kind with everyone and I appreciate how you communicated acceptance when I posted,especially the posts that were tough to send. I hope that you have a lovely week!
Love and Thanks,
Changing
-
Hi everyone, including changing, alone and reallyMe
Of Course! Definitely, changing, I will teach you how to insert those Snazzy Pictures that are usually referred to as .gifs (JIFFS) or .jpgs (JAYPEGS) They are the formats that use the least space over some other forms of icons (pictures)
I had my cast off today and it's a bit scary as I still am now allowed to bear weight on that leg. The Dr. wanted that then I go back in a week for an x-ray. I took a picture and it shows my right leg slathered with ointment that Dave gave me. It has been on for an hour now and is just beginning to sink into my skin, There is a sore on my heal so that is bandaged. Now I have to worry about a shoe as Dave had to 'force' my shoe on today, and snow is forecast for tonight/tomorrow. No way can I force my snowboot on that foot.
alone, I felt so bad for you with the memories of your mother. I couldn't quite figure out if your father showed you love and attention after your mother's sad death. Nobody gets out of this life alive, eh? and I think no one gets through this life without something heartbreaking along the way. However, we know that we get our weird/odd/familial traits/etc., from our parents, from the day we are born, and some people say this can happen in the womb, too. Therefore we know what we can pass on to our children, good or bad.
reallyMe I experienced much as a little girl, but I still think, because I am disconnected, that that is what saved me from feeling the oh so painful happenings and the disconnection still saves from the memories. I know in my head but do not feel in my heart and I don't want the pain, at my age! I think when I am cremated there will be a 'black box' of feelings that won't burn, as in aircraft!
So if you read all of this, I am attaching a picture--still swelling after one week short of 3 months.
Love Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Those are lovely leggliphics, Izz.
Be kind and extra cautious when you step out...
Do you HAVE to go out in snow tomorrow?
Carefulllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll !
xxoo
Hops
-
hi Hops
Thanks, and
My boss just called with things to bring, so I think I will not have make the Office trip on Wed. (if it snows) but I need some groceries---now what I need is like natchos, salsa,---uhhhhhhhhhh-- i guess the trip can wait--
Usually when it snows here, the sun comes out the next day and all is melted by noon.
It is so much better for me than back in Ontario where I had to jump 6' snowbanks for 6 months.
--just a little jumpy after the cast came off.
Love
Izzy
-
Hi Izzy,
So glad to know that you don't have to battle with the 'snow' elements tomorrow.
Bet you feel so much lighter with that cast off :)
Legs look most handsome dear Izzy!
Take gentle care.
Love, Leah
-
You know when I posted my story, I realized how sad it sounded. Don't get me wrong I didn't have the best childhood, but it certainly was better than alot I have heard of. My father never raised a hand to us or his voice, he was just not emotionally available. I have to take in to consideration that he was raised that way and he was raising four children on his own. My oldest brother was not my father's biological son and later in life I found out my younger brother wasn't either, but he still doesn't know. We were a weird group, but with my father being in the service I traveled all over the world and met some pretty fantastic people.I often wonder if I could have done it, don't think so.
I use to have dreams that my mother tried to come explain things to me at night, but I would wake up screaming. I quit having the dreams in my early twenties when I finally realized she wasn't a bad person, just confused like all of us. Once I let go of my anger she never returned (if in fact she had been there).
-
Izzy..... gotta be careful with those pegs from now on.
-
Mizzy Izzy-
What Lighter said- watch those Jiffs and Jaypegs!!!I'm glad to see the cast off (castoff) Dear. I have assorted "Frankenboots" with Velcro as well as sandals for those times when a shoe won't go on- I don't know what to do about snow- Are there snow boots that wrap? Hope your bone mass in the leg and foot is still good- mine looked like faint shadows on the first films after the final cast was off ( about a year). Greens are a good source of easily assimilated bone building nutrients, so eat some if you can my sweet. Then you will be "Strong as Bull" in the bone department. ( No leaching chemical intake for a while- no coffee, soda, etc) Of course, when the doctor approves , the weight bearing will also get the bone mass back on track ( loss of bone mass is supposed to be one of the deleterious effects of space travel/weightlessness)
I wish that I could bring you some homemade salsa and chips- better than commercial, and maybe some guacamole, I do have a tasty recipe. Maybe some of your cute guy friends will pop by with some of you favorite snacks and watch football or hockey with you! How is Dave, by the way?
Thank you for agreeing to teach me about the "Snazzy pictures". I have a built-in camera in my laptop as well as a microphone, perhaps I may even put them to good use one day! That will be after I have completely mastered the felony murder rule and all aspects of homicide, as well as torts and the battle of the forms of contracts! Please take special care of that newly unwrapped leg!
Love From A Snowless Part of America,
Changing
-
CB,
I am sorry for the misunderstanding about the journal.
-
Hi changing,
Thank you for caring.
Snowboots. The first winter out of the hospital, I found a pair of 'kneehigh' boots that had 2 zippers on each, on each side. I could set my foot into the boot, no problem and zip my legs in. They were totally flat-heeled and lasted me a long long time. Soft black 'leather' that would not damage my tender skin.
Finally they gave out andthat was when there was nothing but high-heeled boots. Heels! No way I'd break an ankle.
Finally I found a pair of flat heeled tan 'suede kneehighs' that I could get my foot into, that laced up the front like native foorwear. They were very satisfactory and I wore them for years then the lacings broke. I searched but couldn't find replacements, but they also looked good turning the top down to show a band of 'fur lining'.
Well that covered 38 years as I am still wearing the tan ones! Ha Cheap Date!
I have to push fairly hard to get my feet in as I cannot wiggle my ankles and I think that hard push would be too much for a leg I am not to bear weight on.
Dave is fine. He is so sweet to me and gave me a tube of creme for extra dry skin, Atrac-Tain. It is so thick that yesterday's application is still visible this morning, so I will wash it off and use less afterward--but I was covering up much dry skin that I didn't want falling all over my carpet.
now, my girl, study hard and do well. You will be some lawyer with your background!
Love Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Izzy-
I hope you find some new flat-footed double zip boots for times like these.- I will look too. Thank you for supporting my study! You are such a precious part of my life.
Love,
Changing
-
Ummmmm, Izzy.
Who's Dave?
-
Izzz,
Footsmart.com
Great catalog, I think you might find something.
Are you familiar with zappos.com
xo
Hops
-
Methinks minnetonka tall moccasins sound almost right, except I don't think they have zippers, but I do think a shoe repair place would add zippers without trouble. Also, I had a friend who ordered a tall moccasins kit through the mail (pre-internet days) and made them herself. They have normal colors too but these look fun!
(http://z.about.com/d/shoes/1/0/K/4/090105_minnetonka_moccasins_shoes.jpg)(http://z.about.com/d/shoes/1/0/m/5/minnetonka_moccasins_boots.jpg)
-
Ooooh! *drools* I love the green pair.
THere are snow boots that wrap and have flat heels. I found a pair last winter, and I almost bought them. I decided I probably wouldn't wear them and finally passed. I think I found them at Famous Footwear or Supermarket of Shoes or someplace like that. If you have DSW warehouse near you they might have something.
-
lighter
Did you forget about my male nurse in ambulatory care? That's my Dave.
Thanks Hops
OOOOOOOhh great Iphi
The foot style looks great-- no seams to prevent my foot from getting in. They are so snazzy. Changing is looking too.
Great to know that some are still out there
I thought I was going to be stuck with these
Love Izzy
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I'm so glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when I saw your post, Izzy, lol. I would have had a nosefull of coffee had that been the case.
I'm still picturing you in those tall black CMFM boots.... wheeling around the supermarket.
And..... I forgot your ambul guy's name was DAVE. For a minute there I thought he might have been the welldressed homeless guy.
Had to ask :shock: