Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Less on June 03, 2004, 06:10:57 PM
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Saw my 91 year old N mother today -I take her shopping etc. every week. On the way to her place I called on Mighty Mouse et al to be with me. As I got closer (feels like getting sucked into a swirling vortex) I called out to everyone on the board I could remember. Something about this really worked. I felt stronger than I ever have and survived the event in much better shape than usual.
thank you board. and may the Board be with you all.
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Less,
Awesome. Whatever it takes to get through the visit. I always needed a drink to see my MIL.
bunny
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Less =
That's great! I laughed when I pictured you calling us all out by name as you got sucked into the vortex. I am glad to hear you were strong and kept your cool - way to go!
Pats on the back for you!!!!!
Michelle
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but.......OH NO! 91 years old?!?
I thought that one was supposed to gain longevity through love, caring, humaneness, good diet and laughing a lot.
My N "friend" is 57 years old. I had some hopes that age would bring some humility and sense of reality. I have lost all hope now...... :wink:
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Less,
I like your idea of calling on this board in your hour of need. What a great visual!
Take Care!
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Hi Les(s),
I'm glad you found some strength from all of us to help "gird" you against the mighty vortex of NMom. She must be a real piece of work! Yikes.
So....less pain, less angst this go-round? Seems Less really is working as a name for you my Canadian friend.
MM
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Tokyojim,
Unfortunately there is a myth that N's improve with age and mellow out. Actually many of them get worse with age: crankier, more demanding, and even less inhibited in their bad behavior. Sorry.
bunny
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Bunny,
No need to say, "sorry." I need the reminder.
I have to thank this board also. It has given me good perspective. With an occasional reminder, I can now keep a distance. In addition, I also listen to the infrequent contact through my now well-established filter. Instead of listening with logic, empathy and hope, I now look at virtually all of his utterances as what they really are: Projections, fantasies and attempts to establish superiority; all this for the N supply.
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Hey Les(s),
So will you be seeing your perfect baby Mom this Thursday as well?
I'd like to hear about your visit. You should keep track of all the bad behaviour so you can write "Mothers Behaving Badly".....a cutting edge comedy about NMoms and the kids who parent them.
MM
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Hi MM _Rats! I was having fun with your idea here and then deleted it somehow. Can't find it. Where do these things go I wonder. Anyway I'll start again. Thank you for your encouragement. It took some chutzpah to get out here and it's all too easy and familiar to just be silent again.
A comedy or perhaps a horror film that would make David Cronenberg whimper. There certainly is enough material!
CLose up: sweet older woman(me!) gazing sadly at her journal. "A few years ago" she says, "I bought a beautiful journal so I could write about my spiritual journey. [cut to gardens with dappled light, gossamer butterflies, light green and gold shading, the haunting call of a loon] After one beautifully written paragraph the light began to change. I glanced down at my journal and to my horror there were splotches of black and red all over the page!" [cue: punk/industrial music, screaming, moaning, wretching, head banging] The page was full of angry, raging, blood-filled words. And so began "THE Mother Monologues -notebooks full of dark exhausting confusion. (true story)
The confusion has lifted. All those years of writing and I didn't understand what really was going on. NOW I GET it and it is so LIBERATING to be able to NAME the problem. And believe that she IS the problem, not me.
Shopping with mother could be so much more bareable if I saw it as "material." Yes, yes mother telll me more about the woman who stopped you in the street and told you that you were the most beautiful, lovely woman she has ever seen (the abridged version - this story goes on and on) And she wanted to kiss you? blah blah blah (not making this up here!) Working Title -Episode 1: Two nut cases run into each other.
Episode 2: -Perfect Mother and "Fungus Brain" (newly named, charming isn't it) Go SHopping. Episode 3: based on the true story of the World's Wittiest Woman - in which she goes to the dentist and brings untold joy and happiness to all the staff and patients. Highlight: Dentist exclaims that he soooo looks forward to her visits and simply can't wait to see her again
Episode 4: based on last week's shopping trip. The Star of the show and we all know who that is, says: " It would be boring if I was kind and mild." Don't you prefer, "The Interesting Me." Fungus brain meekly says: "Not Really." Stay tuned folks, they'll be hell to pay for that comment but
there is no turning back!!!
!
So MM, got a few short stories up your sleeve?
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previous entry "Guest" actually "Less". Maybe a little too much wine tonight - needed for calling the big NM.
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Hi Les(s),
I don't beleive I have near as many stories as you do. I moved away from my family home at 18 (early escape) and never went back except for visits about twice a year (now down to 0 times a year). That was 28 years ago. So I haven't had to interact with NMom on a daily/weekly basis as you've had to. And I have 7 other sibs that my Mom can project onto. Although I beleive I was one of her favorites since I was quiet and shy (little did she know what was in my head) and was pretty obedient (I got to be a first class sneak though since she didn't really pay much attention to me as a person).
Does your Mom insult your siblings the way she does you? Or are you her main target? Or maybe she despises anyone who would belong to a club with her as a member? I beleive she must have a lot of self hate contrary to the image she tries to project. She sounds like an A class drag....name calling really is very infantile and primitive. Ooops. I just called your Mom a drag...must be I'm regressing. LOL.
I was wondering if there were any sort of visiting nurse's type organization that could help her do her weekly shopping? Or if you could shop on-line and have it delivered to her? I'm just trying to think of ways for you to minimize your contact with her. You've probably thought about these things hundreds of times already. I was just curious. But I don't want to bust any boundries since you've suffered that for years with this 91 year old beauty queen.
I might be able to come up with a good script for my NPD sister. Now she is a real head case. I could call it "How to get your professor/high school teacher or imaginary friend fired from his job". And she has gotten a high school teacher fired, tried to get a professor fired (and it back fired on her since she was thrown out of Harvard) and now she has a man in her university that she emails and says he's a great friend (great friend asked her to stop emailing and reported her as being suicidal to her superior). Bunny said very rightly that she may be delusional. So, yes..I'd have great fodder for stories/scripts with her. NMom is too covert and clever. It's too exhausting to even try to describe her stuff.
So the good new is...your NMom gives you more overt, over the top stuff which would better translate to a sitcom. And the bad news is the same. Good luck to you dear Canadian friend. You seem to have developed a very fine sense of humor.
BTW I really enjoy your writing style..you have flair. And may the board be with you again this week.
MM
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Hi,
I think it is appalling of me to write under the influence but I need a drink before I call my Nm (I think Bunny may have mentioned that too!) Soooo will try to muddle through here.
thank you for acknowledging my writing. it's slippping off the edge at the moment (please excuse) but it has been a comfort and release for me over the years. I actually stumbled into writing as a bit of a career 20 or so years ago - actually wrote some books and wrote lots of special features for science books. That was fun. No scientist here and but enjoy mucking around. ( So my mother doesn' know this about me - my sister called a few years ago and said -hey! I just noticed that you've written a book -why didn't you tell me! - who knows why....
Are you in any way quiet and shy now? Do you feel like your personality has changed and evolved? Significantly? Maybe it's just the name but you are bold and courageous in my e-mail eyes.
ha! that Groucho Marx joke! (I think?) You know, my mother wouldn't dare insult my brother and sister the way she does me. Being the youngest I think I was culled from the herd and groomed for this special job.
I saw a therapist today who was pretty good at connecting the dots. She thinks my mother was probably " sexualized" as a child - maybe a bit like the tragic little girl in Colorado ( Jon Bennet Ramsay?) At other times I think she may be a rare case of someone who really truly, deeply believes that she is God's gift to the world. It is so over the top. I am starting to get help for the sexual part of all this but am reluctant to post anything too much about it though.
I am beginning to appreciate the difference between overt and covert N. The covert drives you insane - totally exhausting as you say. When did you start to really sort this out for yourself? I am only just realizing that in some ways it's a blessing that my mother has lived so long because I get a chance to see her in action through adult/aware eyes. It's a real opportunity to come to grips with it all.
I appreciate your problem solving with me. I haven't actually considered on-line shopping but what an idea! Part of the shopping trip is about just getting out and about. Perhaps the most important step is that my mother is talking about a retirement home and this week anyway not laying the usual guilt trips on me. I have had to say to her point blank - we can't live together. (oh my god, oh my god) Someone said to me -"It's her or you." I know it would be the end of me if I had to live with her.
Are you free and clear of your sister now? I've read your posts about the stalking. What did/does she need from you I wonder.
Take care MM and may the board be with you too.
Less
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Les(s),
You are correct in ascertaining that I am not a withering daisy. In fact my oldest sister (who did most of my actual mothering) described me in a recent email as independent, feisty and beautiful -I think inside is what she meant although I'm no mud fence LOL.
Anyway, I have a difficult time with describing my personality. If you have studied MBTI personality typing, I am an INTJ. I am introverted (I can be a situational extravert for a short time) abstract in thinking - i.e. value concepts, ideas and theories over concrete subjects, and rational and knowledge seeking.
People tend to think my type is emotionless which is only how we present to the world. In fact my type is very romantic and feels rejection accutely (I think because we don't expect to be liked). Sounds like an N in some ways. But luckily I am almost teflonlike when it comes to criticism because I usually don't know I've been "dissed" until well after the fact LOL! That's because my type is not very people or emotion oriented. I don't get jealous either. Not because of any wonderful trait I've developed - I just don't have it in me. My Mom liked to use the phrase "book smart, people stupid" which is no inane because she is soooo not people smart. And I've never claimed to be people smart because I wasn't born to be - although I have sometimes uncanny intuition when it comes to people.
Sheesh, that's probably way more than you bargained for. I could sit around all day and talk about personality typing. It's a fascinating subject to me (nobody else seems that thrilled with it - especially more concrete types). But with getting older, I think most people become more well rounded and I certainly have. I've tried developing some of my lesser skills and actually express myself better in writing than in person. That's why this forum is so great. And I admire the intellectual level here.
As to what my sister wants with me? Ahhhhh. Nsupply. That's all I'm good for. She used to call me constantly....never asked about me. It's always been only about her. I decided to challenge her one day and that's when the dam broke (as I knew it would based on her past). But I was ready to live without her. I had already made that decision when I challenged her and I unfortunately got my answer. She had me for Nsupply for so long, I think she attempted to get it back because she has alienated so many other people. Man....the woman doesn't even know me. It hurts to realize that after all these years. But I started putting the pieces of her and my Mom together about 10-12 years ago. Living with my wonderful H has helped lead me in that direction (seeing what normal relations were).
Stop me before I post anymore tonight!!! It's that time of night when the primative brain starts to take over. I hope I'm half way coherent.
MM
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No, no not more than I bargained for, not in the least, but Night Mouse, when do you sleep?!
INTJ Eh? Pleased to meet you. I am (gasp) an INFP....and very much to the "withering daisy" end of the spectrum I think! I recall another post about INFP's being N's. At least a query... from you, non? Oh, mon dieu! (wrist to forehead) do you think it might be? I guess it's true that N's can beget N's. Certainly being raised by an N and alcoholic father created such self-doubt that it seems I monitored every breath I took, for fear of offending. I guess that's not N just F (fear)
Yes, just living opens up other parts of ourselves. Very interesting - you feel rejection acutely but don't get jealous. So these are not necessarily linked? Do you think that as people start resolve some of their stuff that the Meyers Briggs's results might change? Time to be retested! Maybe I'm morphing into an EGAD. Expressive, Girl, Angry, Determined! And clearly you are already REAL. Romantic, Expressive, Attractive (no mud fence!-LOL) and hmm, and, oh yes, Little!! Would like to say Liberated. Sounds like you are at least part way there... you think? Can't seem to stop horsing around. Becoming Silly. a real SEGAD.
LESS (Loose, Energized, Silly, Silly)
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Ah My Canadian friend!!!
Pleased to meet an INFP such as yourself. Actually we abstract thinkers are usually attracted to one another.
Since my NPD sister is an INFP, I queried the board about that type being Ns. I thought maybe it had something to do with the sensitive nature. But I got a few replies that indicated Ns could probably be any type. All this time I had it in my head that my sister was the way she was because of her personality type......not a personality disorder! That's my only linkage and not very scientific of course.
Another site I went on mentioned they thought the extraverted types were more prone to be Ns, but I don't think so. People tend to confuse introversion as being interested in ideas and not people. But I think Keirsey got it right that it's actually the abstract thinkers that are that way regardless of being extroverted or introverted. I know many ISTJs and they are not necessarily inward looking people. But I do find them very nice. My H is ISTJ. And he keeps me from being so lawless. We NT types aren't known for following rules unless they make sense to us.
Although my Mom was an N to everyone, she did seem to favor me. Maybe because I didn't talk much as a kid (I was busy with my own little world) and I didn't talk back much. What she didn't know was what was in my head. The INTJ will pretty much not say anything to people who are irrational or don't make sense. We just store it in our little heads and don't take the person very seriously. I remember specific instances when my Mom said something pretty lame "you kids are just trying to bug me" -I just thought she was irrational.
But I am a very competent person and played a peacemaker role in the family (that should have been an NF role I think). The INTJs don't like fighting and emotional messiness (my parents fought a whole lot). And we like privacy as well. That family wore me out and messed up my world as we were always in a state of chaos. Even a calm rational can only take so much! We have feelings too....
I should have said we don't feel rejection acutely as much as know we are likely to be rejected (not really true for me anymore). I think rationals are about 5-6 % of the populace and people (except for the idealists) don't really dig us much.
I'm so excited to meet a really nice INFP. I wonder if your type had anything to do with why the beauty queen picked you to dump her Nness on? Have you wondered about this?
MM
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Les(s),
You're not nipping the wine THIS afternoon are ya LOL? Just in a loosy, goosy mood? Good on ya mate.
MM
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Nope -but I considered moving the 5 o'clock rule back a few hours today. Soooo, I believe you mentioned that you are uncannily intuitive about people sometimes! Ahem! Spoooky. Convinced me. I was just being a bit of a "wag" as they say in Auz. Sometimes I manage to get the editor off my shoulder and then I DO feel like I've had a wee nip.
Now I'm going to go find a web site and bone up on personality types. Good question about N and dumping. I feel I was so sealed up as a child that I sometimes wonder if I might have been much more vibrant and outgoing with different parenting -well I guess the answer is yes - perhaps a whole different set of letters. You went from shy and quiet to, well, to feisty! I was the last born and most resembled my mother physically- feeding the emeshment problem I guess -To this day I get the feeling that she doesn't know that I am a separate individual. I guess as long as I know it...
"We just store it in our heads and don't take it very seriously" - god Iwish I'd known that not taking it seriously was an option. And yet she still made you crazy.
I'm also going to look at Amazon and order up some books -I've been noting what books other people mention. Any favourites? The language is so powerful. "N supply" you said. I feel so liberated when there is a name for these behaviours and ways of thinking. Les(s)
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"We just store it in our heads and don't take it very seriously" - god Iwish I'd known that not taking it seriously was an option. And yet she still made you crazy.
In a word..yes. My thoughts weren't validated by anyone. Even when you know something on a rational level....you are still dealing with a parent. So you question yourself. And Ns are so crazymaking, they have a store of ammunition you can never match. And then there is the emotional component of needing love and approval.
I'm also going to look at Amazon and order up some books -I've been noting what books other people mention. Any favourites? The language is so powerful. "N supply" you said. I feel so liberated when there is a name for these behaviours and ways of thinking. Les(s)
For personality typing I like the book "Please Understand Me" by David Kiersey (not sure of the spelling of his name but that's close). And a book that Dr. Grossman recommended to me is "The Narcissistic Family" by the Pressmans (husband and wife team). There are other books as well. But I liked these two a lot.
And to answer another question, I do sleep between 2:00 am and about 9:00 or 10:00 am CST. I'm not so mighty I can go without my Zzzzs LOL.
MM
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S'cuse the probing MM and just tell me to back off but are you close to any of your sibs? Do you talk about your childhood with any of them? I think everyone in my family just buried themselves as deep as they could but now as older adults surprising, validating things are being said. Less
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Les(s),
I was going to ask you the same thing...about the siblings.
Actually my oldest sister who still lives near my Mom and is a very dear person has talked to me about my Mom. She knows I'm not buying the party line about our family being perfect and is proud of me for declaring my independence. My next oldest sister has had a problem with my Mom for years and just sort of minimizes contact. My third oldest sister has called my Mom on her guilt tripping and has always mantained quite a distant relationship....she doesn't visit much.
The next oldest, who is my brother is now my Mom's main Nsupply. He used to tell his (now ex)wife that my Mom didn't love him. But he has done a 180 now that he's divorced (my Mom is happy about the divorce and has nothing good to say about the ex wife). He visits her often and they seem like two peas in a pod. My brother BTW is someone who I've never card for much as he is overbearing and a jerk. He doesn't acknowledge people and did some really destructive things when he divorced my SIL. He had an affair and was never home, he stuck her with the kids on food stamps while he got his MD. And then after he became a doctor, all of a sudden he's too good for the wife, and now my Mom's prouder than ever........! What, you say?
Then there's me...you sort of know my story in a small way. Then there's my next younger brother. He's a nice man. But he's got some problems wanting to be everyone's knight or what I call a rescue ranger. Then there's my younger sister who has full blown NPD. Then there is the youngest. He was pretty spoiled growing up, but he seems to be managing well.
I don't talk with these people on a regular basis mind you. Just every once in a while. My Mom was good at keeping chasms going between one or the other of us for a long time. We are not close but I have enough information that they have suffered as well. My third oldest sister is also an alcoholic although a highly functioning and intelligent one. She burned out in college after trying to dance as fast as she could (over achiever big time). In fact we are all pretty much that way....needing approval that's a moving target is a hard way to come up. But now that my brother is an MD, he seems to have hit the magic button finally. Even my NPD sister who is a PHD couldn't hit the button. I guess being an MD is more prestigous than a PHD is (according to my Mom anyway).
My NPD sister (after getting published but not attaining a professorial postion like she wanted) has told my Mom that maybe she will be the one to cure cancer (grandisoity). She doesn't work in onocology so I'm not sure what that business is all about. But she's the next best Nsupply for my Mom since she's single (as you know, you're not much good if your main attention goes to your own family). Also my sister is willing to do my Mom's dirty work (see my post on triangulation).
You mentioned that your Mom wouldn't dare insult your sibs like she does you. But I wondered why they bolted (escaped as you mentioned in another post). If you don't mind elucidating, I would be interested to know.
BTW how was your visit (assuming you had one this week)? And if you did, was the board called upon again?
MM
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Forgot to metion that my NPD sister and I used to be "close" until about 4 years ago.
I starting getting the fact that our conversations were very one sided and then I would tell my husband about the outrageous stuff she would tell me.....what happened is I started getting healthier and she was in the same place. After a while I started seeing a big difference in our world views and she seemed like an alien.
My second and third oldest sis were tight at one time but have split ways and everyone else is okay with one another. Just not close.
MM
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Well I'm going to have to learn how to use the quote option so I can comment more effectively. Hooray for your oldest sister. So glad she is supportive. What a huge thing that is to have an older sister that is proud of you. And your next 2 older sisters seem to have the picture too.
Well, well, my- son- the -doctor - what is it about mothers and their doctor sons. Also a sadly familiar story about the doctor who leaves the wife and kids when he's launched - on food stamps even, really awful. I hope your SIL is managing now. So you are the fifth. Da, da dada - little musical joke. Then Rescue Ranger - sounds like he carries quite a load, your NDP sister [so MD trumps PHD- is NDP sister aware of this?] and the youngest. Got it! No wonder you are interested in personality types. You've got the full gamit in your family.
Read your triangulation post - ahhh so that's what's been happening to me over the years. Major wedges driven in.
About 2 years ago around the time I lost my voice I bloody nearly lost my mind. My older sister came to visit and something about my state - opened her up. She is usually very distant and crisp, very defended, very guarded. But she listened and listened to me and didn't tell me I was exaggerating, just listened and acknowledged that much of what I was saying was true for her too and the bits she didn't get (sexual abuse) she didn't dismiss. We didn't know about N's. It makes everything so much clearer. Because my F was an alcoholic and M "very heavy drinker?" maybe we thought that was it. Her listening was a real turning point for me. So slowly we let out bits of the story. Recently she told me that she had to send her boyfriends away when she was young because our M would go after them all. THis was my experience too - NM was an indiscriminate sexual predator of sorts.( perhaps I've said this already)
So the stories are coming out - too bad we couldn't help each other at the time but kids just don't have enough life knowledge to manage it usually. MY brother too (at 64) is beginning to think about it all. -sort of "What the..!Did she really do/say that? His specialty is telling hair raising stories about our father (dead) at Christmas. Remember the time when....(the younger generation is suitably shocked!) But my sister and I are not close. I hope somehow to be more supportive of her in the future -she is pretty tightly sealed up and 3000 miles away.
YEs, went shopping today. I'm not sure what to think but I know I am stronger since "coming to the board." I'm verbally more in control and just generally more detached without being cruel. It is the position I have been searching for. I also maintained a safe physical space for myself today without being too rejecting. Did the hug thing and so forth but was very clear with my body language what was no longer ok. I thought she'd make a big fuss but I think she knows exactly what she has been doing and just needed me to draw the line. So slow So slow!! But getting there.
...I think this degree of honesty just roots you in yourself. I am so grateful to Dr. Grossman for setting up the board. Thanks! And thanks for listening MM (and anyone esle who made it this far!) Less
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Hi Les(s),
We seem to have our own little thread going here. 8)
Anyway, several things you mentioned in past posts made me think. You mentioned your INFP status. You do know that you are a rather elite group being such a small percentage of the population? Of course I am too with my INTJ status. Beleive me, there are times when I wish I was different. But I don't know how much that has to do with the actual type or the NMom quotient. I tend to think with even a bit of real attention, I would have flourished with my type. But it's tough being INTJ and female. I used to always hang with the guys in school because I related to them better. I needed a lot of things I just never got and didn't have naturally (it would have helped if ANYONE was paying attention). But being in a such a small percentage group of the entire population is hard especially with the more concrete types (I've had to become more concrete as I've gotten older, what about you?).
As far as you being vibrant, why my goodness!!!!!!!You seem vibrant to me, especially the way you write. Remember, you are a swan among ducks....as David Kiersey says. He is a rational married for over 50 years to his idealist. What type is your H if you don't mind me asking?
Yes, I am interested in personality typing. Probably because I was so much different than others and I didn't understand why. I always knew I was extremely independent even though I wasn't very social. And I was never a big talker. I cut myself one time from a knife in the dishwasher and I didn't say much even though I had a big gash. My Mom got extremely upset with me for being what she called "so closed mouth". What she didn't understand was that I didn't even see the big gash and was concentrating on the smaller one below it which did hurt some (the big one didn't hurt). Got out of gym class though :D . To this day I will be at times a cauldron of emotions and nobody can see. They think I'm calm and collected. And at times I think I've said something when I actually haven't but meant to. Weird type, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like you, I wish that my sibs and I talked more about our experiences. It's sort of like a house where one or all of the kids are being sexually abused and none of the others know about it. It's almost an unspoken thing that you aren't supposed to say anything. And then there is the manipulation by the parents. Your Mom trying to usurp you and your sister's dates is chilling.
You mentioned that you are now more verbally in control. I can be that way in writing to my Mom. But I can't be that way on the phone since she's gets sooooo defensive at the drop of a hat. But I've become much more verbally in control with others since I've cut off contact. I am also much more free to express joy and laughter. It got on my Mom's nerves if we laughed or giggled too much when I was at home. I'm not sure what that was all about.
Do you remember that book "The Greatest Generation"? I wish I could meet some of the great people of that era. I know they probably exist. But the ones I know seem to be a pretty self congradulatory lot. Have you met any of these "great" people? Or are you just a low down "boomer" like myself? LOL. I don't know if "boomers" is a term used in Canada.
MM
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Hi, Mighty Mouse
I sure wish I hadn't been off this board for so long as your posts have just hit me right between the eyeballs. As evidenced from my "WTF" posts today, today has been a total calamity and reading this thread has been a real lifeline.
I'm a female INTJ and dear God do I ever relate to your comments about your childhood. It's one thing to read about the personality types but you've really drawn the connections between the data and how it applies to real life - particularly an ACON's real life. We are very rare and I totally with why things are especially difficult for us. We are an anomaly in most people's eyes and it's no wonder my Nmother has an especially morbid contempt for me.
Oh well, just wanted to let you know how much I appreciated reading ya. One of you was talking about a drink. lol...I think I could use two right now! Really stiff ones at that!
God bless
Rojo
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Les(s),
An addendum to my third to last post...about the author David Keirsey (I kept spelling his name wrong. And the book I mentioned is actually "Please Understand Me II". He had a first book, but the second is more comprehensive.
MM
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Rojo,
God bless America (and nobody else) - just being silly using a quote from a Chris Rock movie. But cheese and rice......I've never met another INTJ anywhere!!!!
It is hard being an INTJ and female. Thanks for the validation.
So nice to know another one of us exists. Actually I was reading some posts from last year and another person mentioned they were an INTJ as well. I think there are a lot of INFPs on this board also. It would be interesting to know what percentage of this board consists of the "abstract thinkers" - rationals and idealists. We seem to get on very well. Maybe that's why this board is so attractive to me. Other boards are so not intelligent. I find the people on this board to be very articulate and have a lot of valuable insights as well.
Thanks. And luck with your artistic pursuits. I myself like to express my creativity with interior design/decorating. Weird maybe for an INTJ. But as the literature says we can excell at anything that takes our interest.
BTW I don't like crowds either. And I am a very private person and like a lot of alone time. Lots of it. We can extravert in our own way and one way is through this board. I'm a lot chattier here than most places. I don't think there's anything wrong with you at all not liking the crowds....yuck.
Saps the life out of me. If you are like me, we have a very few special people that we get on with and any more than that are just too many.
I hope to talk with you more later.
MM