Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on December 01, 2007, 08:55:04 AM
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i just wanted to write about my Aunt. I talked to her yesterday and I learned so many things.
I asked her if she accepted her emotions. She said,"Yes, Ami dear, they are just human". She said that she feels her emotions and accepts that they are part of being "human"(all of them)
She has little insecurities ,but accepts herself.
I told her how I really almost "lost my mind" b/c I felt so guilty about "bad " emotions. She gave me the simplest most beautiful answer. She said,"Ami, that's silly."
She lost her H when she was young(50). She told me about dating a guy ,but then stopping b/c she didn't love him.She told me that she tries to live with integrity ,as much as she can. I felt like I was transported from the "crazy" land of N's in to a land where things made sense.
My Aunt was always a "dream" to me. She lived 10 minutes away(walking). She was in my mind as s/thing that I could aspire to. I felt like the 'little Match Girl" when I visited her house. There was so much love and warmth ,but I was on the outside.. I used to say that if I ever had kids,I would treat them like my Aunt treated her kids--with kindness. They were precious to her. I always had my Aunt in my mind as I was raising my kids.
I realize that after all these years, she was always a port in the storm for me ,emotionally.I always aspired to be like her and it kept me safe. Even though my M cloned me,it only went so far. My GM and aunt always were beacons.
I know that I would have never gone this low if my GM were alive. I got so bad b/c my emotional world became my M ,and then my H.
With my Aunt, things are simple. She was telling me about s/one. She said that the girl did not have enough 'self". My Aunt knows that you need" enough" self. It is not "bad" to have "enough self".
She was telling me about my M. She said, "Your M does not trust herself.."She said that you have to KNOW who you are, be honest with yourself, and trust yourself.
My Aunt would never need a therapist. She simply "is" what she is. She does not have to be "more" or "less". She just" is'.
Thank you for listening . Love Ami
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Ami.... I know you're in crisis.
I know your life is uncomfortable and you're searching for ways to grow and feel better.
You seem to experience very dramatic emotional levels, which is understandable, but it's always over insights you've discovered over the last 6 months or so. You can get the same information from 10 different sources... and it's still the same information.
Then your off to your next depression, bout of dispensing advice or making shocking, yet familiar, insights you've had 10 times before.
Can you stay with something long enough to internalize it..... just a bit?
From here it seems like your twising from a rope, attempting to take pressure off yourself, which is what everyone does.
Taking pressure off, in the moment, isn't healing.
From here.... it looks like you're creating drama, the chemicals that go with perhaps.... to elevate yourself out of your depression and unhappy situation as a matter of habit?
Of course, I can't be sure but with every post of yourse I read, I feel this way to so degree.
From hereisn't the best vantage into your life..... I realize that.
btw... I'm surprised you thought your Aunt's response "Ami, that's silly" as a beautiful and simple response to sharing feelings of almost having lost your mind.
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You call that "uplifting"---?
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::going to check thread title::.
I'm sorry, Ami..... did you make a request for uplifting responses, only?
I'd call my response an honest observation.
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Gotcha---------Noted.
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I feel like I can "think" now. I feel like the Tin Man in Wizard of Oz.He got "oiled" and he could walk. I really feel like I can think with my own brain.I feel like I have been "unfrozen"
I told my Aunt that my F was a "nut" ,too . I was surprised to see it.She laughed. She "knew' that he was a "nut" .
My M's B is a "nut" ,too. The only sane one is my Aunt.My Aunt has three great kids who love her and she loves them. Her life "worked" b/c her thinking was "sane"
I told her that after all this time, I was really O.K..
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I'd call my response an honest observation.
Lighter, I'd call your response a load of toxic waste. Been saving that up, have you?
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Ami,
Your aunt sounds like a terrific lady, we all need someone like her in our lives. That safe harbor where you can go when all else is turmoil. I'm so glad you have her.
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Dear Alone,
Thank you for your kind words. You really got the 'spirit' of my thread Love Ami
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Sometimes, when traumatized people hear exasperation, they can miss the information.
I have belatedly realized that some good people who got annoyed with me actually were giving me a gift.
(I used to only hear the annoyance and promptly go deaf.)
xo
Hops
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Women. women,women.
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I'd call my response an honest observation.
Lighter, I'd call your response a load of toxic waste. Been saving that up, have you?
Oh dear.
Saving up, lol?
I've been consistently posting frank observations to Ms. Ami, since June or July of this year.
You may not agree with them, but.....
I'm certainly not guilty of saving it up. :shock:
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Lighter, you've been making personal attacks against Ami for THAT long? I see, so you just have a constant supply of bile then. IME when people are chronically " annoyed" with other people they are not dealing with their OWN issues very well. Hops, it sounds to me like you expect Ami to be grateful for getting dumped on. Ami gives nothing but love, respect and kindness to everyone, some things you might want to try working on harder yourself, Lighter.
Bill
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Pot.
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Hi-
I am eternally grateful to both Ami and Lighter for their help in a very tough situation. They are both lovely people with very different communication styles and often points of view, both exceedingly valuable and remarkably alike when one boils things down, and I admire them. They have both proven their sincerity and great worth through their consistent support and hard-won honesty, and I am absolutely certain that they both wish each other the best in life and in battling the N demons. Both are passionate about the truth and about the value of their friends on the board, and do whatever they can to give others the insight from their unique vantage point. It is easy to have misunderstandings in this type of linear communication and I often read my own posts and hope that an incorrect motive is not inferred due to the writing style, etc.
I think that when an opinion is offered on this board by a sincere person, it can be correct, incorrect, hit the mark in terms of understanding, or miss it completely, but if it is not a personal attack, it can be "composted" as Ami says, at will, without recriminations on either side. Sometimes I get advice or a wakeup call that I don't understand or want at that moment, sometimes just a ridiculous admonition by someone who is unqualified or off-base, etc. Later I can come to see the wisdom of the opinion offered, or the composting process is completed! Still, it can be valuable to examine my thoughts and actions in any case. I think Ami's Aunt would understand.
Love,
Changing
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I have to say that I feel like Lighter has been launching personal attacks on me from the beginning. Why? I must rub her the wrong way.I am simply trying to heal in the best way that I know how.I DO NOT appreciate her attacks even though I do not aggressively fight back..
On several occasions,s/one has come to my defense as my friend Bill has in this case. The last time,it was Sally.Before that,it was s/one else.I can't remember ,now.
I really do not like to lower myself to get in to a playground brawl with another woman and that is why I don't stand up. However,I DO appreciate when s/one comes to my defense . I appreciate it very,very much .I feel honored that s/one would care enough to stand up for me. Ami
I agree that Hops is wanting me to simply let garbage be dumped on me and stay quiet about it---for the record.
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Hmmmm... let me see if I have this straight.
AMI advice = priceless wisdom
Advice to Ami = Attack from someone who's threatened by her healing journey, unless the advice resonates with her.
I have one question Ami. When you ticked Jack off with your sage advice..... did you have evil intentions?
Were you attacking her?
Or......were you giving her your gut level honest opinion bc you thought she'd benefit from it?
That wasn't a rhetorical question, btw.
I'll be looking forward to your response bc the question resonates with me.
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What happened with her(since you're asking,of course) was that you bullied her off the board. She was angry with me b/c I was trying to convince her to come back on when she didn't feel safe. Ami
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Lighter clearly doesn't like how Ami processes, it obviously 'annoys' her. From my POV, I have found Lighter's processing style quite annoying at times, downright irritating even, but I have not personally attacked her for it and I won't. I usually just stop reading, like Ami says, 'walk on by.' This time I was SO irritated I didn't.
Bill
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What happened with her(since you're asking,of course) was that you bullied her off the board. She was angry with me b/c I was trying to convince her to come back on when she didn't feel safe. Ami
Ummmm.... Dr. G banned her from the board.... I didn't bully her off.
She was sending personal messages to CertainHope that were considered No No's. Nothing to do with me :shock:
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That was the CONCLUSION to the situation that STARTED with you bullying her. I told her to ignore it LIKE I do, but she was too vulnerable to do so.
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Ami, that response made no sense whatsoever.
I read your post about your disagreement with Jack.
I read Jack's response to your post.
The disagreement had nothing to do with me, as I recall.
I can't see why you'd be begging her to come back to the board, in any case, after Dr. G banned her.
I suppose that might tick me off too, if you really did that.
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Lighter
You obviously want to obfuscate the issue.
The events BEGAN with you bullying Jack. They ENDED with Jac 'losing it" (having been molested since she was 5. Her ego was not really strong).
I tried (behind the scenes)to tell her that she would encounter the "same" type of bullying anywhere in real life and to just "deal" with it. She was angry that I did not TAKE your bullying more seriously. I chose simply to ignore it and try to be "friends" with you. She thought that I "sold out" and that was part of her discomfort ,too. So, maybe you should not have started the discussion ,Lighter. I would be happy to end it now,if you care to.
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Ummmm.... please don't obfuscate your statement "What happened with her(since you're asking,of course) was that you bullied her off the board. She was angry with me b/c I was trying to convince her to come back on when she didn't feel safe." Ami
You couldn't have been badgering her to return to the board bc she was banned by Dr. G.
Not bc she was feeling unsafe.
Why would you make a statement like that on the board when it's not true?
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I for one am having a hard time seeing how Lighter's 'sharp tongue' accomplished anything here except create a lot of unnecessary acrimony. My vote is that Lighter refrain from making personal attacks and we don't need to go here in the first place. Just my two cents.
Bill
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Ami....... I don't think anyone receives responses that always/only make them feel warm and fuzzy.
If that's all you see me posting.... I've checked my honesty at the sign in screen.
I don't always receive input that flatters me either..... as is the case with Bill's timely response.
I may not agree with him but I certainly respect his honesty.
Thank you Bill, duly noted, I hear you.
I don't feel you;ve represented the Jack situation honestly, but hey..... maybe that's truly how you remember it, Ami.
Carrying on like I've been shot, bc I disagree with you, does no one any good so......
I'll provide some examples for my original response to you and hope you take away something of value.
You may be dependent on drama, to some extent. You may need to get past that, or not. Not sure but here are some of your Thread Titles, that raise my radar about such things, as follow:
Is It Really O.K. to Let N Thoughts and Emotions Just Go By--Part 4
Watching the "Layer of Selfishness " Go By
Beat Up, Wrung Out, Exhausted---I Can't believe How Much I Hate Myself
I am Afraid of My Emotions and Afraid of My Thoughts
How Do You Love Yourself When You Think N Feelings and Thoughts?
I am so used to abuse that I don't even see it anymore
Loving Myself------ very "weird"
If I'm wrong... composte away, as you suggest to others on the board.
Makes sense to me.
In the meantime..... I'll continue to post as accurately as I can, which isn't easy, if you want the truth.
((Shunned,)) sorry the disagreements are so painful for you. I apologize, for my part.
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THIS IS OVER--as far as I am concerned.
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No need to shout..... :shock:
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No need to shout? Lighter, you are too much.
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I'd call my response an honest observation.
Lighter, I'd call your response a load of toxic waste. Been saving that up, have you?
ROTFL
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IME when people are chronically " annoyed" with other people they are not dealing with their OWN issues very well. Hops, it sounds to me like you expect Ami to be grateful for getting dumped on. Ami gives nothing but love, respect and kindness to everyone, some things you might want to try working on harder yourself, Lighter.
Bill
go Bill
Lighter,
I get where you are coming from and I can't judge because I too have been there. I used to criticize others under the guise of carring. I found it easier to look outward and seek other targets than myself. I understand...Everyone is here for you and AMI.
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Hi-
I am eternally grateful to both Ami and Lighter for their help in a very tough situation. They are both lovely people with very different communication styles and often points of view, both exceedingly valuable and remarkably alike when one boils things down, and I admire them. They have both proven their sincerity and great worth through their consistent support and hard-won honesty, and I am absolutely certain that they both wish each other the best in life and in battling the N demons. Both are passionate about the truth and about the value of their friends on the board, and do whatever they can to give others the insight from their unique vantage point. It is easy to have misunderstandings in this type of linear communication and I often read my own posts and hope that an incorrect motive is not inferred due to the writing style, etc.
I think that when an opinion is offered on this board by a sincere person, it can be correct, incorrect, hit the mark in terms of understanding, or miss it completely, but if it is not a personal attack, it can be "composted" as Ami says, at will, without recriminations on either side. Sometimes I get advice or a wakeup call that I don't understand or want at that moment, sometimes just a ridiculous admonition by someone who is unqualified or off-base, etc. Later I can come to see the wisdom of the opinion offered, or the composting process is completed! Still, it can be valuable to examine my thoughts and actions in any case. I think Ami's Aunt would understand.
Love,
Changing
I'm taking notes of diplomacy lessons from you, Changing.
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You are stirring the pot Gabben. Ami said IT'S OVER. Lighters intentions were good. Sometimes people need to see what they won't look at to heal. Let them work it out.
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Please,with all due respect, don't say that to Lise b/c I really could use a 'friend'.I am feeling very vulnerable, to tell you the truth. Thanks Ami
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I'll provide some examples for my original response to you and hope you take away something of value.
You may be dependent on drama, to some extent. You may need to get past that, or not. Not sure but here are some of your Thread Titles, that raise my radar about such things, as follow:
Is It Really O.K. to Let N Thoughts and Emotions Just Go By--Part 4
Watching the "Layer of Selfishness " Go By
Beat Up, Wrung Out, Exhausted---I Can't believe How Much I Hate Myself
I am Afraid of My Emotions and Afraid of My Thoughts
How Do You Love Yourself When You Think N Feelings and Thoughts?
I am so used to abuse that I don't even see it anymore
Loving Myself------ very "weird"
If I'm wrong... composte away, as you suggest to others on the board.
Makes sense to me.
In the meantime..... I'll continue to post as accurately as I can, which isn't easy, if you want the truth.
((Shunned,)) sorry the disagreements are so painful for you. I apologize, for my part.
This really hurt for me to read and I practically had tears in my eyes for Ami.
Lighter,
Ami is suffering and trying her hardest to heal. That is more than most people. in this world. The very fact that you needed to take her posts and practically wring her out in shame angers me.
This is HER process and until we walk in someone else's shoes we are not to judge. Some of us have more wounds than others and some of us are at different stages.
Question: even if there IS truth to your insights is it really effective to communicate them to Ami the way that you have?
WE who have had our voices squished, stomped, rejected, so on and so forth the last thing we need is to be further squished.
My T lets me rant and rehash and rant and rehash, she knows that under my layers is a great deal of hurt and a head full of N crap that my mom gave me.
We let go of things when WE are ready not when others tell us to.
Lise
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Thank you ,Lise
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You are stirring the pot Gabben. Ami said IT'S OVER. Lighters intentions were good. Sometimes people need to see what they won't look at to heal. Let them work it out.
Hi paps,
I have not had chance to get on this board for awhile and read. Ami is someone who reaches out to me when I am hurting and we seem to have connected well. I could not read through her thread without expressing my emotions. Sure, I may be stirring the pot but I know that Ami would value my input here.
Lise
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Very well said, Lise. This is exactly the way I see it too.
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Well I wasn't sure about posting on this topic, since it's a minefield around here and I want to keep all my limbs virtual and otherwise, but... Ami I think your posts nail the emotional reality of the ACON situation time and time again, including the titles. It is not my perception that your approach to topics is drama dependent, but I suspect I have a different way of measuring drama dependence based on my quixotic personal experience.
Further, practically everyone here, certainly including me, (and everyone in my real life as well) could be construed as being 'stuck' at where they are. You and I and everyone are where you are and you can wish yourself elsewhere, but you have to walk every step of the road. I can't hop skip and jump around. Or, in the words of a quote I found very inspirational a few years ago "If you have fallen down in the mud, you can't get up off the floor of the Taj Mahal. You have to figure out how to get up out of the mud, because that is where you are. When we slip in the Taj Mahal, we will have the luxury of getting up off of marble floors and won't we be special then?"
When there is an emotional charge attached to an issue, then I find I just need to go through it until the knot is untied and the charge is dissipated. If Ami needs to post 50 posts meditating on different aspects of caring relationships and how that looks to the outsider and where she's been and where she is and where she's headed, then that's fine with me. I mean, is there a cap on that?
For me, I have spent major time focused on one or some set of things in past. I filled a jumbo journal at the time I had emotional flooding 10 years ago - all on one subject. And I talked the ears off of several unfortunate and patient individuals. Eventually I moved on. Eventually I was done. Eventually I consolidated the learning and had a radically different perspective than before.
Now besides that, I will wave a red cloth around and declare that I disagree with every single person here. Yeah that's right - all of you. Whaddya think of that huh?
All I ask is for a 10 minute head start and a rental car with a full tank. Thx!
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Thank you ,Iphi.I know that I am learning some big lesson ,here. What it is exactly----I don't know Ami
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Dear Bill, Lise, Iphi,
Thanks for your caring responses.One thing about the board,it always teaches you "new" lessons. My new one for now is that until Dr G kicks me off ,I have to keep trying to find my voice in the best way that I know how.
I am sure that my "going over the same thing"again and again gets annoying. Obviously,I am not TRYING to be annoying. I am simply just trying to "swim" to the surface under the layers of lies.
I have a passion to get there. It is my overriding passion.
I apologize,in advance, for any annoyances I provide.
If I were on the outside looking in,I may get annoyed to.
I understand.
However, I think that I must simply go forward,as I am.
Of course ,no one has to read . Maybe I will even beat the record of an old "poster" who posted all his threads and was the ONLY one who answered them all( lol) Ami
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Ami,
One of the main reasons I like posting here is because my friends are tired of hearing about N. I felt safe rehashing emotions, trying to sort them out and such. Like I've said before I always try to be the peace maker, but I truly respect you and most opinions that I have read on this board. Those I don't, I dismiss and move on. Truly I know myself, I just need a sounding board and opinions of others help. Keep on rehashing, that's what will get us to the other side. I'm right there with you.
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Thank you so much, Alone. It means a great deal to me. Love Ami
(((((((((Alone)))))))))))
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I guess that I learned the lesson that I HAVE to have the me that is "me" whatever stage I am in-- no matter if anyone else "likes" me.
It is like that poem--- about "walking in your own way". That is another part of the lesson. You can't count on "popularity".
It is about defining your core. You hope s/one will come along,but it may not happen and then--you STILL need to go forward. Probably ,as you keep walking, you WILL not be alone but you have to be WILLING to. That is the key,I think. Love Ami
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Loving Ami and Loving Aunt, a gift of love. (((seasons)))
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Loving Ami and Loving Aunt, a gift of love. (((seasons)))
Thank you, dear friend,
I really appreciate it. Love Ami
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Ami... this isn't about being popular..... even if there was a most popular board resident rock star position..... which there isn't.
This is about people keeping up with other posters, caring about them and using their voices.
When you accuse other posters of being N's or having an attack agenda against you ( makes no sense...) it's a slap in the face to giving voice to everyone who posts here.
You're free to embrace certain views and opinions and discard certain others, like everyone.... and you're also free to fall down and assume a wounded victim position, I guess.
But encouraging Gabben, the newbie poster to defend you [/i] from posters who've been here since before you arrived is bad ju ju.
Hops isn't trying to bury you under garbage and Ive been posting here since before you arrived. I only knew enough about you,to give advice,when I took Lighter as my screename.) I guess you liked me fine as long as I was just posting support.... and you thought I liked you.
It's true, there's always someone to defend Ami from opinions that don't sit well with her. I think that's part of your genius... but I don't think it's serving you well on this leg of your journey. I think everyone here needs support and advice.
Popular and praised is a fine goal, Ami. I may need to take a step back and realize this board's for everyone..... even those who want support in remaining exactly where they are.
Like Izzy says..... she can't relate to certain threads and she just stays away.
I guess I have enough information from you, at this point, to figure out that advice isn't what you're here for.
You're here for support. ::nodding::
I just have to reconcile it with the disparity of your words... you really sounded like you wanted to move past and feel better. I don't I believe that any more.... I know I did this morning. Eh, who am I kidding, disparity of words and deeds makes me throw up in my mouth. Yup. I don't like it, Ami. That doesn't mean I don't like you but..... I'm so far wanting to put up with someone saying one thing and doing another..... I don't want to come here and do it too, KWIM?
Guess I'm just working this through as I go..... needed to be done for the boards peace of mind I suppose.
SUPPORT ONLY.... it would be nice if you'd include that in your thread's titles somewhere... save us some drama.... which I care about.
Whew... I don't have to go into any of that "good intentions can be attached to things you don't want to hear" crap.
Tell Bill Cheney and Gabben Rumsfeld they're very nice supporters.... you don't need no stinkin advisors, lol.
In the meantime, you don't have to bother clearing up that factually flawed statement you made about my bullying Jac off the board.... ::hand over forehead:: You were just trying to talk her back into feeling safe on the board. :shock:
It's wrong and it casts a very evil light on me but.... somehow.... I don't think you'll lose any sleep over it.
Sorry I threatened you so much you felt the need to do that.... ghastly to tell fibs that far off the mark.
I feel so much better...... clarity is a very good thing.
I'm going to go to a funeral parlor now..... an aquaintance passed away Sat. She got sick Friday. Sudden. 7yo son. 4yo son. 2yo daughter. My oldest had a crush on her oldest when they were 4. I can't believe she's gone.... that her children are motherless..... she was the breadwinner too. Terrible terrible.
Kind'a makes it easier to put things like this behind, dont'cha think?
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But encouraging Gabben, the newbie poster to defend you [/i] from posters who've been here since before you arrived is bad ju ju.
Ami never encouraged me and as a matter of fact she strongly discouraged me in order to protect me from getting stomped on. I have the IM to prove it.
I can see who Ami is. I make my own decisions about what I want to do here. I don't care about being liked or popular. Gave that up a long time ago. I just want to quit smoking and give support and get some too.
I don't care if people don't like me -- I know who I am and I know what I do as well I am starting to like me now. I think I am OK.
All that I wrote was just from my own heart and thinking.
Peace,
Lise
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Lighter
Do you want to just end it here? We each have many issues to heal. Want to just call it quits "hurting ' each other. We need help in our lives ----Let's not "eat each other up". What do you say? Amil
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Wow you guys. I have not kept up with this thread because it seemed such a benign topic-but so many pages? I had to read. I was watching a soap opera but I have to say this is more entertaining than the soap! Sorry but I am laughing! Changing is THE nicest person EVER! Ami, You keep on lamenting. Lighter, your observations are often insightful and you have every right to state them. I personally never let ANYONE push my buttons. I take what I need and leave the rest!
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Ho hum, this really isn't ANY different than the all male boards I've been on since about 1994. Same stupid crap. Same juvenile flame wars that serve no other purpose than to vent someone's spleen and entertain the bored(board, isn't that cute). Squabble, squabble, squabble over petty personality dislikes. Always one bully with a mouth trying to pick fights because someone they don't like is getting too much attention and this is a great way to get it for themselves. And other people that think it's all put on for their own personal amusement. No difference. Oh what fun.
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I would not call it fun but I would call it funny. Everyone seems to have a valid point. Just like my ex and I used to do. We would end up arguing and start yelling and then towards the end of the fight we would realize that we were agreeing at the top of our lungs!
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Overcomer, I don't see anything 'valid' about bullying other people.
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Oh Don't listen OC
He jest wants to start a squabble with you
Oh, OC, don'tcha cry now
His drawers're in a knot and the blood ain't gettin' through
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Hi Iz. thanks for trying to protect me but I do not need it. Am-I love ya. lol I guess you could call me the comic relief. I agree some people can get a bit edgy around here but you just gotta let people work through their stuff in the way they see fit. I have stated it before and I will say it again now-on email or on an online community like this you read the written word. You cannot hear inflection in voices nor can you read body language so you cannot really know the intent.
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Izzy,
I think that was an "uncalled for' comment. I think that you should remove it and replace it with an opinion, if you care to, and not an"uncalled for"insult . Ami
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Hi Bill,
I also have read several of your recent posts as baiting, using hostility and sarcasm to exacerbate conflicts.
The tone of them strikes me that way, anyway.
I have read many of your previous posts as thoughtful, helpful, and insightful.
So there's Bill A and Bill B, as with all of us...
Hope to see more of Bill B again soon, I am learning from you.
How are things going for you, Bill? Have you found new friends since the Randy debacle?
I hope so.
peace,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
. I think that it is an unfair characterization of Bill .
He used his voice when he saw bullying---that was all. I don't see anything inappropriate in that---not at all.
Remember Kitty Genovese. Of course, she was getting killed. However,it is nice when someone does stand up to something that is WRONG. It shows character--not weakness.
I have been ignoring little snipes at me for a long time. Someone else had a stronger voice and just stepped in.
It is nice that sometimes someone will step out from the "crowd" and DO something.
That is just the difference between people. I ignored . Maybe,I was wrong. I respect someone who will stand up. What's wrong with standing up, Hops.? Ami
Hops--I think that it is unfair of you to "throw" Randy in to it.It is a "low" blow .I bet that you really didn't mean to hit that low.
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Dear Hops,
. I think that it is an unfair characterization of Bill .
He used his voice when he saw bullying---that was all. I don't see anything inappropriate in that---not at all.
Remember Kitty Genovese. Of course, she was getting killed. However,it is nice when someone does stand up to something that is WRONG. It shows character--not weakness.
I have been ignoring little snipes at me for a long time. Someone else had a stronger voice and just stepped in.
It is nice that sometimes someone will step out from the "crowd" and DO something.
That is just the difference between people. I ignored . Maybe,I was wrong. I respect someone who will stand up. What's wrong with standing up, Hops.? Ami
Dear Ami,
There is a wonderful old saying, maybe it is a proverb .... "there are none so blind as those who will not see"
There was only ever caring, insightful posts by those who could see and were becoming increasingly concerned for the welfare of a friend here on board, and I include myself.
Try and stand back a little dear Ami.
Mindful of your last 3 postings on the tread "Things I Don't Like"
Love & Peaceful thoughts.
May God bless and guide you.
Sincerely yours,
Leah
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Not a thing, Ami.
I think it's good to defend someone. And it's good to have friends who respect and understand your process,
as so many do here. Including Bill. (Bill B... :))
I do not experience Lighter as a bully, though.
I think she's blunt sometimes, a little disrespectful when frustrated.
But I hear caring underneath all the effort. She's worked hard to help people here, including you, imo.
Sometimes people in my life who've been very blunt with me
have spoken big truths to me. Whether they were doing it perfectly or not.
I
did
not
like
it
no
I
did
not
like
it
at
all
...but in hindsight, my wounded feelings/ego turned out to not be an accurate measure of what they were doing.
I still might not like some people much, but they left gifts for me in their wake...
Does that make sense?
Hops
PS to Bill--I'm not trying to "enemy-ize" you. Not at all. I went to camp, didn't like it. Don't want no enemies!
Just wanted to say what I see.
It's only my eyes. So if you don't think I'm seeing anything valid in it, that's okay.
Pax,
Hops
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You and I will have to disagree here, Hops.
IF someone else sees an inappropriate action and calls it by it's name(nastiness, bullying) WHY is THAT person WRONG? Ami
I KNOW that you value integrity--Hops. This is integrity--- that is how I see it.
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I believe you, Ami.
I don't think there's anything wrong with calling something inappropriate that you believe is.
There's a line between neutrally saying, I think that's inappropriate, and saying
YOU are a bully.
It's like the difference between those I statements and You statements.
One owns your own opinions and feelings, the other labels another person as bad.
So, and I'm not remembering the exact train of dialogue, but instead of:
Lighter: blunt frustrated post about this and that, challenging you, describing your pattern as she sees it
Bill: Lighter, you are a bully, bad person, with bad intent
Ami: And you're a woman
maybe it could work better this way:
Lighter: Less blunt, sensitive and diplomatic post that challenges you and describes your pattern as she sees it
Bill: silence
Ami: ? (free to consider what Lighter was trying to give you, w/o distraction)
I may not be analysing all this very well and it may not be helpful but I hope it is
And if we need to disagree that's okay too. There's room for that w/o heat.
Must go to work...
xo
Hops
PS--I think the debate about Lighter and Jac is a tangent that got throw in to blow smoke--not related, imo, so in her very latest posts, she sounds hurt about that to me...so her tone's amped up
Okay, now I will try to mind my own business
while still opining about everything :shock:
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Hops,
Lighter was asking ME what the problem was with Jac. That can be a problem when you try to intrude on someone else's space in an inappropriate way.You GET the answer and you don't like it very much. Ami
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Hmmm.
In my past, inappropriate was often a shaming word. Or I used to respond to it that way.
Another thing I observe in myself is when I get lastworditis the only cure is for me to let go.
(For me, lastworditis signals insecurity about not being understood, or being disliked. Letting go feels good in that sense. Letting it all be okay, whether there's perfect understanding or not...)
Hope this all has helped in some way, visible now or not.
Hops
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Fools rush in, so here goes,
I believe I have a very good relationship with both Ami and Lighter (at least until this post). I think I understand both points of view.
My only suggestion, and it is one I try to adhere to myself, is for those of us not raised by Ns to be very circumspect in our criticism or advice to those who were.
Encountering an N as an adult does not necessarily give us the ability to know what it is like to have been raised by one or the long term and persistent effort it takes to recover from it.
And even someone raised by an N should be careful in the application of 'tough love'. Not everyone heals at the same pace or in the way we might like and some people don't heal at all.
Lighter, on the one hand you are concerned that Ami has made little or no progress and on the other you say you have been posting frank responses to her since June or July. Since they have apparently not helped her progress any perhaps you might reconsider their value in her particular case?
mud
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Hops, you are projecting your own emotions onto me again, but that's ok. I've never baited anyone here ONCE, not yet, but that may change. Flame wars are flame wars after all. Obviously none of you have been on male boards before. All this crap being thrown at Ami "for her own good" does nothing but make her defensive and upset. I liken what Lighter does with Ami akin to criticizing a stutterer for stuttering. What brilliant, razor sharp insight! How helpful!! All Lighter does is unearth Ami's 'symptoms' and throw them back in her face. She doesn't have a clue about what Ami is going through, not the smallest and not one thing she says is the least bit helpful to Ami, regardless of what she claims her intentions are. And it is truly amazing some of the things she projects onto Ami that don't have the slightest thing to do with Ami, but are entirely Lighter's issues. She has been politely asked to cease and desist many times but keeps going and going like the energizer bunny. I have not been so polite with her and I am feeling even less so by the minute. The Cheney/Rumsfeld stuff is typical of her abrasive style and is pure flame war material.
Izzy, I read you as a 'mean drunk.' If that's true, I hope you find a way to get sober, if it's not true, my apologies for reading you wrong, but that just makes us even. In either event you still owe me an apology.
Bill
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Thank you Bill and Mud Ami
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Ami: SInce you started the thread I will address this post to you. Imagine I have been so busy moving out of my old house (finished yesterday...yes, back to the chiro today.) FINALLY.....time to get caught up on the board. Ami's post about her aunt was nice but I got behind so didn't even read anymore. So I read the whole thing yesterday. Start to finish. I did not ride the roller coaster of emotion AT ALL. So that is why I thought it was kinda funny. I saw this nice thread about Ami's aunt and how SHE is normal but her sister (Ami's awful N mom) is not. Then it takes a turn and there are slams back and forth. You have to admit if you were not involved it was a bit funny.
Bill. Ami and I are dear friends. I don't think she took my post wrong. In fact, she and I had a chuckle about my post. But I appreciate you trying to stick up for Ami. I want Ami to get over all her crap, too. But I have been playing this get better game diligently for six years and it still rears it's ugly head periodically. I remember in the first few months of my realization that my mom was truly Narcissistic and that she was more concerned for anybody and everybody but me...........I lay in bed in a deep depression for months. I cried. I yelled and screamed at her. It was awful!!! And then I was labelled as unstable. So everyone thought I was the problem for a very long time. But I kept digging and did a bunch of research and I know now that I am NOT the problem.
I hate bullying, too. But I also am a very blunt person (learned behaviour........I finally am not afraid.....) and when I see it in another person it doesn't take me aback. I am sure it does others, however.
I'll take advise from everyone one of you.....even tough love. Ami, on the other hand, needs a little more understanding as she is going through these very hurtful stages of uncovering her core (as she puts it....) She is doing inner child stuff. That stuff sucks!! It is a lot to go through.....
Much love to all of you. Ami. Hops. Lighter. Izzy. Bill. Mud. CHanging.....Leah....who am I forgetting............all of you!!!
'
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Izzy, I read you as a 'mean drunk.' If that's true, I hope you find a way to get sober, if it's not true, my apologies for reading you wrong, but that just makes us even. In either event you still owe me an apology.
Bill
if it's not true, my apologies for reading you wrong
In either event you still owe me an apology
For what? a silly little verse implying the blood isn't getting thru to your brain?
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Izzy,
When I made a comment about "sitting in a dark room "in a chair:" you were very offended, even though it had no bearing on you.
I think that your comment WAS directed to Bill.I am sure that you would not like a similar one directed to you . Ami
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Izzy, I don't care enough about your opinion to argue with you. Cheers!
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I love ya Izzy.........you have a comedian bone too!!
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There is a wonderful old saying, maybe it is a proverb .... "there are none so blind as those who will not see"
There is also another wonderful old saying..."those without sin cast the first stone." This comes from the Gospel.
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There is also another wonderful old saying..."those without sin cast the first stone." This comes from the Gospel.
Gabben... is God good with the second and third stones? :shock:
Leah.... I'm resonating with you lately.
The thread on THE EMPORORS NEW CLOTHES really has impacted the last two days of my life. Remaining focused and in the moment is a wonderful thing. Thanks to you and Shunned for that reminder.
Hops.... your example of positive communication was spot on. I always learn something from your posts, even if it's a reminder of something I already know. Thanks.
Mud... If you read any ambiguity in my last post, let me clear it up.
Ami's free to continue her quest for lint, without further suggestions from me.
If I take the time to venture any advice.. it'll be for someone who's open to hearing it.
Izz... do you suppose Bill sees the irony involved in making accusations....
then turning around and making accusations?
I just love his little Cheney accent, lol; )
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Ami's free to continue her quest for lint, without further suggestions from me.
If I take the time to venture any advice.. it'll be for someone who's open to hearing it.
Lighter, you DO have a sense of humor! I'll believe this when I see it! Whenever have you ever been able to restrain yourself? It will be a first.
zz... do you suppose Bill sees the irony involved in making accusations....
then turning around and making accusations?
This really makes me question your sobriety even more Lighter. Is this your famous 'clarity?' Are you accusing me of accusing my own accusations?? I think both you and Izzy are hitting the sauce too much.
I just love his little Cheney accent, lol; )
Totally incomprehensible. Just a clueless Brit I guess.
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I am not sure but I think I am seeing a lot of pot calling the kettle black in this thread.
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Just a clueless Brit I guess
Verbal Abuse and Hatred on a Voicelessness and Emotional Abuse Message Board ????!!!!!
:shock:
Wake Up and Shake Up
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Gosh, me? Lighter started a flame war. She has said things every bit as disrespectful and inflamatory to Ami, whom I consider to be good friend. The abuse began with Lighter, no question in my mind at all. Ami did not ONCE ask for all the so-called 'advice' Lighter kept trying to shove down her throat. The first rule when you start a flame war like Lighter did, is that you are ASKING for retaliation from someone. Hatred? I don't hate anybody. When someone starts a conflict it generates anger, not the same thing as hatred at all. Calling it hatred is itself inflamatory.
I come from a long background of being on all male boards. The rules are quite different. Guys don't trash other people while pretending they are only trying to help. They wouldn't get away with it. Males fight far more honestly and openly IMO that has happened on this board. But the fights are long and brutal and virtually ANYTHING goes. You start something you better expect the worst because you'll probably get it. What you DON'T do is start a fight and then whine when the bricks start flying because they will.
Bill
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Very true . Men are much more up front(IMO) Ami
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You're right, Bill.
Women are the only posters who name call, finger point, criticize posts they haven't read, make assumptions about other poster's motives, project and use dramatic language like 'abuse, hatred, pure flame war and retaliation"
Ummmmm, who knew? :shock:
Thanks be to God you're here to show us how men post... ::nod::
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In my mind Lighter, the blame rests with the person that STARTED the entire thing, which in this case was YOU. You were politely asked several times to stop your behavior and you wouldn't do it. Sure once the brawl starts, anything is fair--that's just he way fights are, what in the world do you expect? Projection--sure, we all do it, me too, never said I didn't. But I will take only what I think belongs to me, no more. HOWEVER, abuse IS abuse, it's not just 'drama.' A flame war is a flame war. it's a fact of life. It's why I quit the male boards, it was continuous, unending, completely disruptive and unproductive. I did NOT like you introducing it into what I thought was a peaceful situation. (I was mistaken about the peace) I did not introduce the word 'hatred,' *I* was accused of it. See a difference? I don't understand your reference to criticizing posts I haven't read. What does that refer to?
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Just so I will know, who is from Britain?
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Posts: 1808
Re: Verbal Abuse
« Reply #1 on: Today at 05:10:55 PM »
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lighter
Izz... do you suppose Bill sees the irony involved in making accusations....
then turning around and making accusations?
The list says name-calling is verbal abuse. AHA!
Sir William is the Brit who is name-calling
Izzy
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He is? Who else is from England? Leah?
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You may assume all my posts to Ami were attacks.... you;ve done that in fact.... without benefit of reading them.
You assume she was attacked, not just feeling attacked.
She doesn't even know what screenames I've posted under so how could you?
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I am trying Am but no one will tell me.
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Overcomer.... I can't tell if Wiltay's a Brit or if he's calling me a Brit.
I assume he's British but it's hard to say from his post.
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Hi everyone,
Since I can see no new ground broken here, everybody has 12 more hours to say their last piece, then this thread will be locked.
Best,
Richard
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I want to thank every person who generously gave me so much love and affection. Honestly ,it was mind--blowing .. On the board, there are always "life experiences' to be learned. I have had SO many so far. All of them are 'new' and unexpected.
They prepare me for life-- and I NEED preparation.
This experience was one of love .I was the recipient of so many people's love.I felt a new part of my heart open.
Thank you so very, much.
Lighter, I hope that you can go on in your way ,as I go on mine. Love Ami
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Awww, man, Ami.....
Get WIltay and those 2 little dogs of yours into Westside Story costumes.... you're Jets....
::Affecting Peurto Rican Accent:: My turn to be a Shark 8)
TONIGHT.....
WE RUMBLE!
::whispering::
Right after Dr. G's goes nitey nite.
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I'm just getting back in. Lighter, just when I see a shred of something to like in you you become totally obnoxious and start throwing flames again. Don't you understand YET what a flame is? But fine, we are in a flame war which YOU started so by the rules of the game throwing more flames and NAME-CALLING is expected from you since obviously an intelligent conversation isn't going to be possible with you, ever. Ami certainly never succeeded and she tried a lot harder than I have. The reference to Brit is the fact that it seems evident that you are from a different country and obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about when you compare me to Cheney. The deliberate insult is that you are an ignorant foreigner without a clue. You might not even be a foreigner, but you are certainly ignorant. You made a basically stupid,nonsensical reference that means nothing to me, except it is clearly meant to be an insulting, NAME-CALLING FLAME which you have made at least twice now. Are you keeping score Izzy? I think she's way ahead of me (so far!!). If I thought you were from Australia I would have said Aussie. It was just a guess, from some expressions you have made that are obviously not US origin. I happen to be a Brit on both sides of my family and I still probably have some distant relatives over there.
I have read ALL of your recent postings to Ami and they ALL been attacks. There has not been one benevolent, believably good-natured comment in the whole bunch. Ami saw them as hostile, I saw them as hostile and other people who are not part of this current conversation saw them as hostile. But you say they were 'advice." Sure Lighter, whatever you say. I also remember very briefly scanning some of your snipes against Ami a few months ago and that's what they were SNIPING. Ami also told me you have been taking shots at her from almost day one and I have every reason to believe her from what I have seen with my own two eyes. So basically you have a long pattern of sniping, harassment and personal attacks against Ami that go back a long ways. And now you say you have posted under different screen names so the list is probably much longer.
Ok, Lighter your turn. Isn't this fun? Are you learning anything? Are you digging this flame-war stuff? Are you enjoying being on the receiving end of it for a change? Give me your best shot--you PRs obviously can't hit the broadside of a barn!
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OK, my turn.
Are any of you Americans aware that outside of the US, many, many people think that Americans are shallow and ignorant?
Just an observation. :)
Janet.
From Britain.
Very glad I'm not American at the moment.
Good luck to the lot of you.
No, I'm certainly not 'jealous' of your 'freedom'.
Or your 'success' (where?).
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Wiltay......
I'm not the only one who thinks Ami might have a lesson in some of the posts she thinks are attacks.
I'm not the only one who's tried to help her see something beyond herself, though you would have a point if it were true.
You call it sniping..... (you wouldn't last a minute on a woman dominated parenting board, btw if you call this a war) well....
you say Tomatoe I say tomato and I guess we'll just have to disagree there.
About the Cheney remark..... I'll explain it like this....
Ami * Little Bush
WIltay * Cheney
Newbie * Rumsfeld
Hops * C. Powell
Overcomer * Mike Luckovitch
Lighter * The Dixie Chics (when your this evil..... you can be a whole gaggle of bad girls :shock:)
WIltay.... I don't see this as a flame war..... I'm going to go back to what I was doing,
(after I first adjust Ami's crown, hand her a bouqet....)
She's lovely..... even if she isn't always having the biggest and best discoveries, Wiltay.
I think that's a mark her mother left on her, maybe she feels she's not entitled to have feelings unless their huge or over the top important?
Not entirely sure but.... notice I didn't call her any names, state that I was emperically correct or condemn her in any way.
Perfection is a terrible curse, I hear.
I will say this....
her acceptance speech......
was flawless.
::nodding::
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Just so I will know, who is from Britain?
He is? Who else is from England? Leah?
I am trying Am but no one will tell me.
On the board, there are always "life experiences' to be learned. I have had SO many so far. All of them are 'new' and unexpected.
Likewise, here on the board, I have learned much recently, though none of it was unexpected.
In particular, the abrupt discourteous PM message out of the blue yesterday, and the flow of postings thereafter, on the board.
Grateful for precious affirmation and validation of discernment.
Love, Leah
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Leah? I hope it was not me. The only reason I kept asking about Brits is because Bill made a comment about that and I could not for the life of me figure out who he was referring to. And Janet? I will bet you feel that way. I see people from England as much more refined and I am proud to say my dad is a pure bred Brit.
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Oy, Leah. Sorry about that.
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I want to say that I got caught up in the middle of this yesterday and I should have kept my observations to myself. It was probably rude to laugh in the middle of a conflict. My hopes are that everyone involved will cool off and learn from their mistakes and I am grateful to Dr Grossman for locking this thread.
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It was probably rude to laugh in the middle of a conflict.
But Mike Luckovitch always makes us laugh in the midst of conflict :shock:
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Advice is given all the time on this board. It’s part of what the boards about. Lighter was not wrong to state what she saw and to voice it. And Ami wasn’t wrong to say that Lighters advice wasn’t helpful to her. Lighter didn’t bring the situation about Jac up to discuss it, and Lighter didn’t bully Jac. She asked Ami what the difference was in Ami giving advice to Jac and Lighter giving advice to Ami. Her point being the giving of advice is common here.
The problem was the so called support. Insulting another because your friend is offended isn’t support. There’s lots of a terms for went on here, mobbing, flaming, namecalling, stirring the pot etc. Nothing in this thread has been about recovery and this is suppose to be a board for recovery.
“I appreciate your concern Lighter, but I need to work out my issues my own way” was all that was needed. Instead we have groups that formed against each other, and all sorts of other unhealthy tactics that are normally used by abusers and not those trying to recover from abuse.
The real question that needs to be answered on this thread is why are these tactics are being used here and what can we do to put them to a stop. They help no one that is serious about recovery.
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I did not even know who Mike was until I googled him. I guess I am the comedy in the midst of tragedy!
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Paps, I have said that to Lighter on MANY occasions--to no avail---but I do not want to start the thing up again. This is just to set the record straight--since you asked. Ami
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Yup yup yup..... Paps.
Overcomer..... did you see his cartoon where the Priest asks if his outfit makes him look too gay, lol?
Hysterical and his job's to make people laugh at (themselves and each other) in the midst of conflict. Sometimes he just points and invites contemplation.
You could be in worse company, I don't think you did anything wrong, my dear.
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Me either.,Kelly!!!
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Advice is given all the time on this board. It’s part of what the boards about. Lighter was not wrong to state what she saw and to voice it. And Ami wasn’t wrong to say that Lighters advice wasn’t helpful to her. Lighter didn’t bring the situation about Jac up to discuss it, and Lighter didn’t bully Jac. She asked Ami what the difference was in Ami giving advice to Jac and Lighter giving advice to Ami. Her point being the giving of advice is common here.
The problem was the so called support. Insulting another because your friend is offended isn’t support. There’s lots of a terms for went on here, mobbing, flaming, namecalling, stirring the pot etc. Nothing in this thread has been about recovery and this is suppose to be a board for recovery.
“I appreciate your concern Lighter, but I need to work out my issues my own way” was all that was needed. Instead we have groups that formed against each other, and all sorts of other unhealthy tactics that are normally used by abusers and not those trying to recover from abuse.
The real question that needs to be answered on this thread is why are these tactics are being used here and what can we do to put them to a stop. They help no one that is serious about recovery.
May commonsense prevail
Sincerely,
Leah
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All I can say is Doc G is way more accomodating than I would be and I like Dick Cheney.
mud
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Mud,
" I like Dick Cheney. "
You've just proved the theory. :shock:
Janet
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Hi janet,
You've just proved the theory
If you mean the theory that Americans in general are shallow and ignorant or that a person's political beliefs determine whether one is then I guess we value people by rather different criteria.
mud
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Hi everybody,
This thread is now locked per my previous post.
Best,
Richard