Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on December 02, 2007, 08:35:04 PM
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ami, I dislike your posts bc we are so similar. You and I hate our seleves so mcuh that we might consider the possibiity to start a thread that says amy nd lupita hate them sleves so much that we are exhausted.
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I truly believe that you two are wonderful women who let how others define you dictate how you feel. Time to make some effort to love yourselfs without feeling guilty!
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OK, I do not want to keep my thinking errors. I want to correct them. I am aware that I am filtering. I felt attacked yesterday. I am not saying that I was attacked. I am not saying that the poster attacked me. I am saying that I felt attacked.
I felt here that I was at my place of work. Where I have to defend my self, where I have to pretend, where I have to shape my self in order not to bother others.
I am not saying that I was sinlged out. I am saying that I felt singled out. That I wish that person did not post in my threads. I know I cannot prevent anybody from saying whatever, I just wish. Probably immature wishes, but I feel it.
I wish I can say how i feel with out anybody tell me that they already addressed those issues. That they already told me what to do and I am not doing it.
It is the same when a woman is aboused and we tell her she needs to get out of that relationship and she does not do it. But the board still keep saying nice things to the woman. I have never seen here somebody telling anybody "Everybody already told you you should leave that man and you are not doing it"
Or, "If your children do not love you is because you must have done something wrong"
But this is not the first time somebody tells me that I already was told what to do, and why do I keep b**ching about the same thing.
Again. I must be filtering because 99% of the people here have given me wonderful help. It is just one percent who I do not like how they talk to me. I am not saying they say something bad, I am saying it makes me feel bad.
Anyway, going back to hating our selves, it is true. It happenes to me. I do not look bad, the reason tells me I do not look bad. Suddenly when I look at the mirror I feel my chicks are too big, my legs too skinny, my stomach too big, etc. I feel shame and guilt all the time.
I am trying to say to my self, the famous self talk, "I can do it" I can protect my slef, I do not need a mother, I do not need anybody to love me. I am trying.
I do have friends. I feel lonely, even in the middle of friends. I do have people to go out. I have my dance classes. I feel lonely among people.
I do not have time to volunteer because I work three jobs, and my only pleasure is dancing. I do not want to stop dancing to volunteer somewhere.
I have may debts hospital from my surgery, i cannot stop working the three jobs. My debts were past to colection agency. I have to pay or my credit will be ruined.
Still I wish I can say how I feel with out somebody telling me that I was already told what to do and I am not doing it. I am doing many of the things I have been told. Many. I cant do all.
Again, I am not saying that I was attaked, I am saying I feel attacked, I am not saying that somebody hurt me, I am saying that I feel hurt. I feel that I am talking to my mother when somebody tells me that I already was told what to do and I am not doing it. It hurst very much.
This is the last time I am trying to talk about this. If I get the same answer, I give up.
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Hey Lup-Is it me?
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Dear Lupita,
The way that I see it is that the board is like "real"life. You can't control if s/one 'attacks" you.I think I know what you mean and I have had that same attack on many occasions.
HOWEVER,part of our learning on the board is how to handle it. THEN, you will have tools to bring in to real life.
So, with this particular attack, you can handle in ways that teach you s/thing of value. Then, you can start to put "tools" for life in your "toolbox"
Lupita ,if you stand up to this attack(in the way that fits your personality), you will grow. That is my opinion.
I ,honestly, have learned as much from the people who did not "like'" me as the people who did.
Lupita,I think that you ARE doing better b/c you are at least facing the core issues. Love Ami
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DEPRESSION and Frustration
How we deal with stress, disappointments, and frustration determines the essence of our personality.
Anger may do more harm than any other emotion. First of all it is very common and, secondly, it upsets at least two people - the aggressor and the aggressed against.
There are two problems: how to prevent or control your own anger and how to handle someone aggressing against you. The overall effects of anger are enormous. Frustration tells us: "I'm not getting what I want!" "You are not telling me what I want to hear right now!"
How do we learn to suppress aggression?
We learn to genuinely forgive others. This takes a lot of work and understanding.
Anger can be the result of hurt pride, of unreasonable expectations, or of repeated hostile fantasies.
We may unconsciously use anger to blame others for our own shortcomings, to justify oppressing others, to boost our own sagging egos, to conceal other feelings, and to handle other emotions (as when we become aggressive when we are afraid).
Any situation that frustrates us, especially when we think someone else is to blame for our loss, is a potential trigger for anger and aggression.
What is frustration?
It is the feeling we get when we don't get what we want, when something interferes with our gaining a desired and expected goal.
Anger is feeling mad in response to frustration or injury. You don't like what has happened and usually you'd like to get revenge. Anger is an emotional-physiological-cognitive internal state; it is separate from the behavior it might prompt. In some instances, angry emotions are beneficial; if we are being taken advantage of, anger motivates us to take action (not necessarily aggressive) to correct the situation.
Recognizing anger
We know when we are very mad, but anger and aggression come in many forms, some quite subtle. Look inside yourself for more anger. This list (Madlow, 1972) of behaviors and verbal comments said to others or only thought to ourselves may help you uncover some resentments you were not aware of ...
Direct behavioral signs:
- ASSAULTIVE
- AGGRESSION Overly critical, fault finding, name-calling, whining, sarcasm, prejudice, flashes of temper;
- HURTFUL
- REBELLIOUS
- DIRECT Verbal or cognitive signs
- OPEN HATRED + INSULTS
- CONTEMPT + DISGUST
- CRITICAL
- SUSPICIOUS
- BLAMING
- VENGEFUL
- NAME CALLING
- LESS INTENSE BUT CLEAR "Well, I'm a little annoyed with [fill in blank] "I'm fed up with [fill in blank]
Thinly veiled behavioral signs:
- Distrustful, skeptical
- Argumentative, irritable, indirectly challenging
- Resentful, jealous, envious
- Disruptive, uncooperative, or distracting actions
- Unforgiving or unsympathetic attitude
- Sulky, sullen, pouting
- Passively resistant, interferes with progress
- Given to sarcasm, cynical humor, and teasing
- Judgmental attitude
Thinly veiled verbal signs:
- "No, I'm not mad - I'm just disappointed / annoyed / disgusted / put out / irritated."
- "You don't know what you're talking about."
Indirect behavioral signs:
- WITHDRAWAL
- PSYCHOSOMATIC DISORDERS Tiredness, anxiety, high blood pressure, heart disease.
Actually, college students with high hostility scores had, 20 years later, become more overweight with higher cholesterol and hypertension, had drunk more coffee and alcohol, had smoked more cigarettes, and generally had poorer health (Friedman, 1991).
Signs of Anger
- Depression and guilt
- Serious mental illness
- Self-defeating or addictive behavior, such as drinking, over-eating, or drugs
- Vigorous, distracting activity (exercising or cleaning)
- Excessively submissive, deferring behavior; or
- Crying.
HIDDEN ANGER
It is obvious from these "signs of anger" that anger is frequently a concealed or disguised emotion. And why not? Getting mad is scary ... and potentially dangerous.
One common way of expressing suppressed anger has been given a special name: passive-aggressiveness.
It is releasing your anger by being passive or subtly oppositional. For example, such a person may be "tired," unresponsive, act like he/she "doesn't understand," be late frequently, exaggerate others' faults, pretend to agree ("sure, whatever"), be tearful, be argumentative, be forgetful, deny anger ("Nothing's wrong ..."), procrastinate, and frequently be clumsy or sick (Hankins, 1993).
There is another related form of concealed anger: feeling like a victim.
Feeling victimized assumes that someone or some situation has mistreated you. But a person who specializes in constantly feeling like a victim may not identify or accuse his/her abuser. Instead, he/she generally feels that the world is against him/her, that others vaguely intend to make him/her miserable.
Victims usually feel helpless; therefore, they take little responsibility for what has happened to them. They think they were terribly mistreated in the past but they now seem unable to accept love and support,
e.g. if you offer them help, they never get enough or if you try to cheer them up, it seldom works.
A victim is much more likely to sulk, pout, look unhappy, or lay a guilt trip on something than to get angry.
They play games: "Why does it always happen to me?" or "Yes, but ..." (No-one's ideas or suggestions will do any good).
The self-pitying, pessimistic, sad, jealous victim is surely sitting on a mass of hostility.
Both the passive-aggressive and the victim are likely to be aware of their anger, even though it is largely denied.
Anger expresses itself in many forms:
- Cynic;
- Naysayer;
- Critic;
- Bigot, etc.
Potter-Efron & Potter-Efron (1995) describe ten different styles of expressing anger; this may help you identify your type and help you stop it.
Depression is a critical message that you must change your way of living, thinking or behaving.
Depression is an important opportunity to reevaluate your priorities, and not a "disease" to be smothered or feared; depression is inverted anger, nothing more, so take the time to discover that with which you are angry.
Work through your depression rather than hold onto it as if it were a prized possession.
YOU ARE NOT YOUR DEPRESSION.
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Self Hatred and Understanding
Theodore Rubin (1975) discusses self-hatred, defined as disliking any part of our selves.
It involves all of our distortions of our real self, any self-put down, or any exaggeration of one's goodness or ability. When we distort or deny what we really are, it suggests we don't like ourselves. This dislike of self starts in infancy.
Babies have all kinds of habits, needs, and emotions that parents prohibit. As a child, we all learned that parts of ourselves were "bad". This self-hatred becomes automated in the form of depression, which both punishes us and drowns out other feelings, too.
Parents who are rejecting, neglectful, overdemanding, overprotective, overly punitive, or overbearing increase the self-hatred in a child.
"I'm not good enough" becomes a central part of the self-concept.
Such a child may be a "good girl / boy" but fear and rage may exist within, even when feeling empty and lifeless. Sometimes the self-hatred is conscious but the connection between self-criticism and other problems (depression, anxiety, fatigue) is unconscious.
Sometimes the self-hatred is unconscious and we feel badly without knowing why.
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Dear Lupita,
Quite often, I've been able to relate to the thoughts and emotions you express in your posts.
I'm not generally as expressive about it, but that doesn't mean the feelings aren't there, you know?
One thing's for sure... that vicious circle of stinkin thinkin can definitely become an engrained rut in my brain!!
A couple things that help me are:
Recognizing that I'm not the sum total of my feelings (I really like bornfree's post)...
that I can acknowledge my feelings and yet choose to forcefully put away those which don't line up with who God says I am in Christ.
and
Guarding my heart.
That means I don't fill myself up with my own feelings or with those of others.
In other words, I really need to be cautious about reading/listening to/exposing myself to stuff and people that bring me down. Not all connections are positive ones. Just because I feel uncomfortable around someone doesn't mean that person is bad for me....
and just because I feel a kinship with another person doesn't mean that person is good for me...
you know what I mean?
Some of the stuff which feels most familiar is exactly that which I need to set aside in order to get on with my own life, renewing my mind and not being magnetically drawn back into that old whirlpool of poor thinking.
Thinking of you with love,
Carolyn
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Well... that was an interesting read, bornfree. I think everyone will take something away from that article. Thanks.
Ami....
Lupita said she felt attacked, she didn't assume she was attacked.
She's acknowledging that she has some work to do on the way she filters input from other people.
Thats the point.
You, on the other hand, are stirring the pot when you write " You can't control if s/one 'attacks" you.I think I know what you mean and I have had that same attack on many occasions."
No one is attacking Lupita..... everyone posting to her yesterday was trying to help her.
::whispering:: I don't dislike you, Ami. I really do want you to feel better.... not attacked.
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I'm not sure what you've accepted but......
I hope you can soften your position regarding my feelings toward you.
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Lupita,
I am sorry if I said anything that made you feel bad yesterday. That was never my intent. If I am the one that you don't want posting on your threads, let me know and I will stop.
I have had enough pain in my life that the last thing I want to do is cause anyone any pain.
One last thing I would like to say, I don't entirely agree that you need no one or that you need no one to love you:
I am trying to say to my self, the famous self talk, "I can do it" I can protect my slef, I do not need a mother, I do not need anybody to love me. I am trying.
This is just my opinion, but we do need someone and we need someone to love us - ourselves.
Having been raised without that, it is very foreign, in a sense we have to replace what was never given to us from our parents. That is what I was trying to say yesterday.
Again, I am very sorry if you have felt hurt at anything I have said. If you don't want me to post on your threads I will stop immediately.
Much love,
Peace
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Born, thank you so much for your answers. I have not finished the cognitive therapy bu Burns MD. Then I will work on the depression book, you will not waste your time buy suggesting the book about the kinds of depression, and thank you so much for your time. Your post is useful for everybody here.
Thank you Lighter, as always youa re very supportive.
FP, never you, you are wonderful. Your post was wonderful and very related to me.
It is just that I am over sensitive to be judged and to be told what to do, you never told me that I had been already told what to do and I was not doing it. Thank you FP please, keep writing to me.
Overcomer, no no no, you are a wonderful person.
It must be my fault because I feel very sensitive. I am in constant pain.
Ami, I do not think I was attacked, I felt attacked. Some posts are really trggering to me, very much. That is why I am oversensitive.
Some posts make me feel that I am with my mother, and that is very sad to me, extremely sad, and I have been very depressed. That is why I did not post for all last week.
Thank you so much dear friends for helping me.
God bless you.
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Hi Lupita,
I have been following this post but I have not known what to say until I read your last post:
"It must be my fault because I feel very sensitive. I am in constant pain."
This jumped out at me; first because I heart cares and I hear your pain and second because I think I know how this feels. When I am in intense pain I can often perceive others remarks as more harsh and more critical than they seem. It is because my pain pushes my deepest mom button that any negative feelings, pain, hurt (over feeling unacceptable or a feeling of rejection in my life) can cause me to become super duper sensitive. I become like an open wound, very susceptible to infection. My feelings, expression and desires were so made ashamed by my mom.
I do not know if this resonates with you too or if this is where you are.
I hope that you can find some comfort in my words.
Warmth,
Lise
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I must admit that I wish you peace-both you and Ami. But I will never slam you for taking awhile to get there. As long as you guys are making progress that is all you can hope for!
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It ia all "over' as far as I am concerned ,Kelly. Ami
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Over? Ami? It does not seem to be over-we all are on a journey which is never truly over.
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I love this, Hope...thank you:
Guarding my heart.
That means I don't fill myself up with my own feelings or with those of others.
It makes such sense to me.
Growth takes space, maturity takes space, just like a tree.
If I want my heart to grow wise, I need to let my emotions pulse through it the way blood pulses through my heart, never stopping and stagnating and clotting. They come, and they go...but they are not me. Not my ...umm... soul.
xo
(you don't appear often, dear, but you don't mess around when you do!)
much love,
Hops
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Lupita,
Thank you for taking the time to explain in the midst of your own pain. I was concerned that I had triggered you by something I wrote.
You said that you were over sensitive a number of times in your post. I don't know if I am reading too far into what you wrote, but it sounded like you were upset with yourself for being over sensitive?
Lupita, it is how you feel, and there is nothing wrong with how you feel. (Depending on how it is said to me, I too get triggered by being judged or told what to do.)
You are an MD, so you most likely know what can happen with nerve damage or the changes that can happen in the brain following trauma, so what I am going to say is probably old news to you (please ignore if so).
In any case, I had an interesting thing happen once - severed a nerve in my foot (along with a tendon or 2), and my nervous system had the most bizarre reaction. It became hypersensitive. Essentially, the nerve was cut-off so I shouldn’t have felt anything, and yet – the slightest touch in that area of my foot would double me up in pain.
It wasn't until I had a great physical therapist that I was able to learn to desensitize my foot. She touched both feet in exactly the same spot, and in the normal foot it was just a slight feeling; whereas, in the foot with the nerve damage I had pain radiating up my leg. It was a very weird sensation in my brain - the same exact spot and yet 2 such different levels of feeling. That did it though – she retrained my brain.
I learned from my experience with my foot that the nervous system is a funny thing. I think that emotional trauma does the same thing to our brains. Our brains become hypersensitive to external stimuli, stimuli that are threatening to us in some way, and usually associated with the original trauma. Our brain goes into a fight/flight survival reaction, whereas, the brains of people who have not been traumatized don’t experience that degree of reaction.
I haven't researched this but I read somewhere that newer brain scans (I think PET scans) are now showing this – where people who suffer from anxiety or other disorders are showing greater brain activity in certain regions of the brain.
Now, the only problem for me has been that I have only 1 brain. How do I desensitize it? Short-term antidepressants might work. Suppress the activity for awhile while the brain re-sets itself (no tomatoes please Ami I know you don’t like meds :: smile :: ). I was on one for a while and it did help, but I stopped taking it because I didn't like the side-effects.
In any case, I guess I am trying to say that I hope you are not beating yourself up for being sensitive or being too hard on yourself. It is not fair to you; you have been through so much and your brain is reacting just as it should given what you have experienced, and, at least IME, it is very difficult to re-set the brain.
You are a wonderful person Lupita. You have accomplished so much in your life despite incredible odds – odds that would have broken most people, IMO. In fact, IMO, you have accomplished more in your life than most people I know who have had gentler upbringings.
Please be gentle with yourself. If you have trouble with this, maybe think of how gentle you would be with your son were he going through the same things as you. Take that knowledge and apply it to you as well.
Another thing that might help....Make a deal with yourself – every time a negative thought comes into your head in the next week – instead of feeling bad about it, give that negative thought a mental hug and say thanks for protecting me. Sounds bizarre doesn’t it? Oddly enough that is what my T taught me. Those negative thoughts were at one time a desperately needed protective mechanism when you were a child that have continued into adulthood.
Also - every time a good thought or feeling comes up, congratulate yourself for remembering to feel good.
I have been trying this also and think it is helping.
Much love,
Peace
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every time a negative thought comes into your head in the next week – instead of feeling bad about it, give that negative thought a mental hug and say thanks for protecting me. Sounds bizarre doesn’t it? Oddly enough that is what my T taught me. Those negative thoughts were at one time a desperately needed protective mechanism when you were a child that have continued into adulthood.
Also - every time a good thought or feeling comes up, congratulate yourself for remembering to feel good.
What wonderful advice, Peace.
Seems to me that all our reactions in the present really DO represent something adaptive and smart and creative. It was adapative and smart and creative in the past to be who we became. It's only now, on the threshold of letting the past become (and stay) the past, that we trip over them, wrestle and struggle.
One day, we can say thank you and say goodbye. When it becomes peaceful to say goodbye, let things go, we're there.
I think.
love
Hops
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Dear FP, I agree with you. Thank you for your post. It is not the zise of the stimulus, but what the stimulus is triggering and our treshold. Our treshold for stimulation (triggering) is very low. The umbral is low and the neurones discharge higher electrical charges. So, we feel as extremely painful stimulus that otherwise would not be painful for others. The same muscles are inutilized with excess of stimulus like in tetanus, or lack of of it like in polio, same with our mind.
But I am working on it. I am reading the Burns book, I am still in identifying the distortion, then identifyl yous assumpions, then dispute it.
It is easy to agree with the book. It is difficult to do it.
Needing aproval, the advantages are that you will work hard to get sympathy, the disadvantages that you will be in a treadmill constantly working for the aproval that you so much need and if you do not get it you will feel extremely frustrated. So, I am there. IN the analizis. Then you ask how true is what you are thinking. Give it a grade from 0 to 100. Then you can see that there are shades not black an white. Besides your self esteem cannot depend of the feelings of other people since we cannot control what other people feel.
I cannot say that nobody loves me. I have my son and there are some people that in some way care about me.
So, I am not as abandoned as I feel. Plus, I do not need that somebody else take care of me. I can take care of my self.
And I know I am a good teacher, very good teacher, although nobody tells me or thanks me.
So, there is where I am. I am not as depressed as I was last week. It is better. Not much better but better. That is improvement and I have to be grateful for that.
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Once you practice 'knowing' your truths.... you get better at believing them.
You feel stronger about them and eventually they're part of you.
It sort of sneaks up on you..... (((Lupita)))
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Lupita,
I am so glad to hear that you are doing better this week.
((((((Lupita))))))
Hops
Seems to me that all our reactions in the present really DO represent something adaptive and smart and creative. It was adapative and smart and creative in the past to be who we became. It's only now, on the threshold of letting the past become (and stay) the past, that we trip over them, wrestle and struggle.
Yes, yes, yes!!! (Can you tell I really agree?) :D
One day, we can say thank you and say goodbye. When it becomes peaceful to say goodbye, let things go, we're there.
I think so too.
Much love to you both,
Peace
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When it becomes peaceful to say goodbye, let things go, we're there.
((((((((Hops)))))))) Yes, I think so, too... and also, for me (especially lately)... it'a become the same with feeling peaceful to say nothing at all!
Such a relief...
and thank you from my heart for your encouragement and sweet thoughts earlier on in this thread, dear Hops... that made me smile, really.
Love to you and daily consideration, with hope,
Carolyn
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Making you smile makes my day, Hope...
Hops
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It'a become the same with feeling peaceful to say nothing at all!
Sweet gentle droplets of maturity and wisdom.
Inner peace and calm as one serenely prevails.
Shimmers of light dancing upon the still waters.
Simple bliss.
Love to ((( all )))
Leah