Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: might mouse on June 05, 2004, 06:43:53 PM
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Hi All,
I'm starting a new thread since I started kind of appropriating Ellie's post about Evangelical Ns.
Less asked me if I had ever gotten anything like normal mothering. So Les(s), the answer is maybe. But then do I know what normal mothering is? Probably not.
There are times when I felt that my Mom really did care about me. But usually as soon as I thought that, she'd say something with a "twist". She is very covert so an example of something she'd say is this (I sent her some pictures that I was very proud of and told her how I was starting to become a pretty good photographer): "Well, your pictures are very nice. So either you are a good photographer or you have a really good camera". And every time I actually see her (which used to be 1-2 times a year when she would beg me to come and then sort of ignore me when I was there) she would throw her arms around me and hug me and then promptly tell me my breath smelled like garlic. That's strange...she says it almost every time I see her. It's like it's good to see you but I don't want to make you too comfortable so I'll just throw something off-kilter in there to keep you on guard (my husband confirms that my breath does not in fact smell like garlic).
Now those might seem like petty things but they are a constant in our relationship. She also is very competitive...I tell her about my birds..her birds are better or more prolific. She had 8 kids, I have none (she did tell me after my first of many miscarriages that I would never have kids because I was too selfish -this after joking with some of my sibs about a luncheon mean we didn't like when we were younger). That last one was only covert because she whispered it in my ear....nobody else heard.
Last time I saw her, we had a good time together. She was on good behavior as my H was there. And we stayed at a hotel (we stay at a hotel instead of the house because then she treats us like guests and doesn't ignore us). But when I got home, I made the mistake of thinking she might really like to get closer - MY BAD. I can't blame her for this one. I set myself up for that. It went downhill quickly from there as I saw that I
was never going to have the Mom I needed or wanted. She really can't seem to differentiate between us kids anyway. I spent a lifetime trying to differentiate myself from the masses (7 other sibs). But no matter how good I did my chores, looked after the younger ones, made her creative things that I would put on her bed as a present, she would always lump us in one big mass (called YOU KIDS). As in...you kids are just trying to bug me or you kids didn't do what you were supposed to do (I always did), etc. She does the same thing to this day.
I had kids teasing me in grade school and she was more concerned about why I was in the bathroom stall (trying to get away from the teasers), and it embarrassed her. She made little sounds like she was concerned. But when it really came down to it, I never felt she was ever anything but mad because she had to deal with this. I guess these little things start accruing after while. You know even as a kid something is wrong. But you can't put your finger on it. I mean we were never physically abused or sexually abused. So what did I know except that my perceptions were never validated. You are always second guessing everything when you are never, ever validated. It's a very covert crazy making thing.
Sheesh. I feel like I sound like a baby. But all of that is past now except that I need time away from her to see if there was any normal mothering. See Les(s), you just opened a big can of worms LOL. That is why I felt like I never grew up and it's important for me to finally seperate myself from her so I can gain my individuality.
I guess what I would like to know is if anyone else feels like they are still five years old in a a way? I don't feel like this anymore since I stopped talking to my Mom. But I wonder if I will ever get to the point where I can be unselfish enough to ever have anything to do with this woman again? Right now it feels good to be seperated.
Has anyone else seperated and come back and things were better (meaning you had the skills to deal - not that the N changed - I know that doesn't happen)? And I know I'm not there yet.
MM
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I feel the only solution is to separate, as did my family from our alcoholic N father. When my mother left him he showed his evil side. It was sickening how he tried to smear her to us and anyone who would listen. We lived it and knew he was lying. My youngest sister was too young to know all that we knew and he really messed with her head. I have had a hard time forgiving this. I was 18 and decided to cut contact with him. Eventually my siblings did the same. That was the only way to begin the healing process. I have never looked back or regretted this. Unfortunately my need for a father figure led me to a 12 year relationship with another N. If only I knew then about NPD. When I ended this relationship I also had to cut off contact. Each time I left all personal possessions behind. I was not allowed to have anything. Each time I started from scratch building my life again. After all it was only "stuff", I could replace objects and left with my self-respect, something that can't be bought in stores.
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mighty mouse
Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
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It's been over 20 years since I cut off contact with my Dad who died in 1998. The pain he caused is a faded memory now. I do remember how he abused the title of parent. They made you feel obligated to them in their cruel way. The only way to get over it is to break off all contact. Even my ex-N had a way of making me feel like I was 5. Its their way of controlling you into dependence on them. Don't let it happen, its what they want. Remember, emotionally you are more mature than them. The longer you are away from them the stronger you will get. If you aren't sure stay away. They are counting on your weakness. Don't become their prey. Life is too short.
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shixie,
You are right. Life is too short.
N's are twisted.
Thanks for your words
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Good idea to start a new thread -and a challenging topic. What is "normal" mothering and did you get any!? I was watching a mother racoon with her babies yesterday. The babies were really struggling to keep up with mom. I was amazed to see her continually go back and check on their progress, move on a little then circle back again. That looked like good mothering to me! Gentle encouragement and guidance.
With the proliferation of parenting books and messed up kids I sometimes get the feeling that there isn't much natural parenting instinct left. It's a really tough job ( it certainly was for me) But there are some basics that most people should be able to manage most of the time if they don't have a full blown PD of some sort. MM: "Either you are a good photographer or you have a really good camera." eee god! Do you think she thought she was being funny? Do you think she actually thought she was complimenting you? What did you say, if anything? It's very familiar and in my family anyone who couldn't take the "dry wit" of the family as it was called ( I prefer caustic witlessness) was 'too sensitive'. I never said anything but am building up to say: "What do you mean by that?' "That was a very hurtful remark - did you realize that?" Is it possible to educate N'.s I wonder. I guess I've always thought that silence minimizes the damage but I want to try something else.
Validation - it's so important, up there with water and food I think. and perhaps the most important way that we convey our love.
Shixie: "They are counting on your weakness, Don't become their prey." Oh, the truth of that. How much of this I wonder operates at an unconscious level - they do things to feed the black hole.
Flower: Absolutely we are survivors - so far from childish - rehashing unresolved and confusing childhood events has helped me grow into strength I never knew I had.
MM -your last question - I think that may be happening to me right now. Early days but something is different - oh yes, me. I'm stronger.
Less
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There is "childish" and there is "child-like."
Sorry this is going to be dry:
Because of early formational interactions with N parents, we have pockets of "child-like" cognition. Some of our neurological development was traumatized/frozen and some cognition/emotion remains in a child-like state. This could cause problems with becoming triggered easily and reacting impulsively rather than thinking of options (which is more adult and less child-like).
And there is "child-like" as in an innocent, imaginative, creative, spontanaeity. This is something we don't want to lose or reject.
bunny
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Hi All,
Bunny, I wonder if any of that child like cognition that's frozen in time can be unfrozen? It seems to be getting much better for me since my split with NMom.
Les(s), regarding your question of if my Mom thought she was complimenting me or making a funny......I don't think either one. I think it was her (I'm going to say unconscious) one-down manship. I say that because she doesn't seem to remember anything mean she says. She is very clever at honing in on something that may be important to a person and exploiting it. She doesn't seem to know she does it. I think there is a weird disconnect there. Maybe Bunny can elucidate on this more if it's a common characteristic of Ns. And it seems like it is from some of the posts I've read.
Flower and Shixie, I think you are right. I need to keep seperate for now and maybe forever.
Les(s), you mentioned on another thread that your Mom calls you names like stupid and moron and that's she starting to now call herself those names. I'd say she was calling herself those names all along (projecting them on you). And maybe the Ns live a long time because it's their punishment to live in their perfect little boxes (good visual). It must be tiring to always maintain a facade of perfection. For a normal person engaging in that kind of activity it would eat away at the soul I would think. Maybe they were normal once. It ALMOST makes me feel sorry for them.
MM
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Wow, MM, your mother sounds and awful lot like mine!! It was eerie reading your post as it sounded just like my own mother. The only difference being that mine was also physically abusive. In a way that was a good thing as it made the abuse so OBVIOUS. But with you it's more subtle but just as insidious.
There are times when I felt that my Mom really did care about me. But usually as soon as I thought that, she'd say something with a "twist".
my mom does the exact same thing. I'll tell her about my kids and she'll throw in how my nephew and niece (by my sister who she favors over me) do something 'better'.
She also is very competitive...I tell her about my birds..her birds are better or more prolific. She had 8 kids, I have none
Mine too. Her 'parenting' was always better than whatever I'm doing (yeah sure mom, slapping me around, whipping me with belts, brooms, brushes, etc and calling me evil is great parenting). Also, like yours, mine has 9 kids.
Now those might seem like petty things but they are a constant in our relationship.
They do not sound petty at all to me. And I can honestly say that these subtleties are probably the most destructive as they make you question yourself (i.e. am I the crazy one here?). With the more obvious abuse you don't question who's wrong. I always found this type of stuff more destructive than physical abuse.
She really can't seem to differentiate between us kids anyway. I spent a lifetime trying to differentiate myself from the masses (7 other sibs). But no matter how good I did my chores, looked after the younger ones, made her creative things that I would put on her bed as a present, she would always lump us in one big mass (called YOU KIDS).
I did the same thing! And my mother always called us "you kids" too!
Has anyone else seperated and come back and things were better (meaning you had the skills to deal - not that the N changed - I know that doesn't happen)
Yes. I moved away for five years. When I came back I was stronger and able to deal better with her. I'm still getting stronger, though. My goal is to minimize contact and to let her attacks slide off of me like rain on a duck. I know that it's possible. Take care, -E
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You know, I pondered on this one. Normal mothering to me is the complete opposite of what I had. That makes it very hard to understand why some people want to have children. Normal mothering to me is sacrificing anything and everything you have to make your children your number one priority. You let them win every now and then when you play games with them because it makes them feel like a winner. A hell of a mother gets angry when they lose. A normal mother would sacrifice their life for their children. There isnt a person on this earth that is more important to me then my children. I would give me life for them and I would expect that most mothers would.
I can speak for myself, when push came to shove with my mom, she shoved her children to save her self. She would feed us kids to the wolves rather then fight them off. I actually know that my mom was not a N, she just did not have a maternal bone in her body. I have told her how i felt about her as a mother and I also shared with her what it was like to be an eight year old when you realized that you were a burden, not a blessing. I think in a way that saved my soul. I never depended on her as a mother so I was never let down.
It felt very good to say my peace with her when I got older. My mom once told me that I would regret how I treated her when she died. It did not take a second for my response and I can honestly say that it was how I felt for many years about that woman. I simply stated to her,"when you die, I am sure I will shed some tears, but ya know what? Those tears will be for the mother I should have had, not the mother you couldnt even attempt to be. You were never a mother to me, you were someone who gave me the will to be a better person. I vowed I would never be the person you are, and that gave me all the guidance I needed."
Of course, lol, she then told me that us kids never thought that if she would have better kids, she would have been a better mother. My reply back, you are one sick pup lady. I dont even call her mom, I call her Judy and it feels so natural. When the woman attempts to hug me, it makes my skin crawl.
So to hope that your mother would love you like you know you deserved, well, simply put, it is not in her realm. Some people have very little maternal instincts. Giving birth does not make you a mother, giving nurturing earns that title.
I can also tell you that the further away that woman is from me, the better off I am. The minute she enters the room that I am in, my mood literally changes for the worse. She gave birth to me and it was not by my choice. Believe me I had to hear the horrible details for my entire 39yrs. I hope you can one day feel grateful that she gave you life, but I also hope that you realize that she cursed the life she gave you by her lack of mothering. Let her go as a mother and I promise you ll find yourself.
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Can't believe what I am learning here - there is so much truth in all the posts.
Yes MM yes. -one-downmanship. It's been there all my life. No need to find a 'reasonable' explanation. I instinctively never mention any accomplishments, events, friends in my life - gives her a target.
I wish I wasn't responsible for her. She is like a black widow spider to me - sting, paralyze and suck the juices out.
God you guys are good! LOL
Less
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E,
I remember you writing in another post that you had 9 "kids" in your family. And I'm sure you "kids" sat around and thought up ways to bug your Mom, right? That's why you are EVIL.....LOL. Maybe a spawn of the devil NMom?
I'm not sure (still referring to another thread here, sorry), but did you say that you were the peacemaker in the family? That may have been someone else. But that was my role and of course I wasn't any good at it since with Ns everything is a moving target.....love, approval, peace. It gave me a feeling that I couldn't accomplish anything. I have overcome that though. I realize it's up to me now to change the tape in my head. But I lived with the feeling that I couldn't complete a task all the way through.
Where are you in the mix...oldest, youngest or in between? And did you have to not only parent your parent, but younger sibs as well?
Thanks for pointing out the insidiousness of the covert N. If she was slapping me around and stuff, I could identify clear abuse. But with these clever sons of gun like my Mom, it was really crazy making. And she was one of these types who perpetuated the myth of the perfect family. It took me years to unravel that one.
She and my Dad were extremely proud of the physical comforts they could give us. And they did. We never went without dental work, decent clothes, etc.. So I guess they saw those things as being more important than actually interacting with us. And they did work hard. So it's hard to really say they did anything wrong in most people's eyes. If I hadn't read "People of the Lie" and "The Narcissistic Family" I would have thought all of this was just in my head. But my sibs are aware to varying degrees of the havoc that went on in our house, but I don't think any but maybe one or two have come to my conclusion. What about your siblings. Anybody still attached? Or have they cut the ties mostly too?
MM
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MM, I was more of the scapegoat in my family than the peacemaker. I was the quiet, shy, never got in trouble kid who was an easy target for my raging Nmom. The rest of my family basically would tell her off. I was too sensitive to do this. I felt horrible making her feel bad. I preferred the abuse to knowing that she was hurting. Horrible way for a kid to live.
Where are you in the mix...oldest, youngest or in between? And did you have to not only parent your parent, but younger sibs as well?
I am third from the oldest. And, yes, I had to parent my parent. My other sisters parented the younger sibs in general but I parented my youngest brother. I was generally isolated from the other kids for one reason or another (my Nmom usually didn't want my 'influence' on them. Still have no idea what that means. I never even got a bad grade, much less had a problem with anyone outside of the family). I was always surprised when ever I'd go over a friend's house and their moms would love me. I always thought that I was unloveable and that they just felt sorry for me or something.
But with these clever sons of gun like my Mom, it was really crazy making. And she was one of these types who perpetuated the myth of the perfect family. It took me years to unravel that one
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I always found the crazy making the worst thing. I spent years thinking that there was something wrong with me. In fact, still I think this but just not to the same extent. I know what you mean about the myth of the perfect family. My mother did the same thing. It's completely bizarre and just another form of crazy making.
What about your siblings. Anybody still attached? Or have they cut the ties mostly too?
Pretty much everyone else knows my mother is 'crazy'. Half are hyper attached (i.e. my 35 yr old brother goes over for lunch every day and my mother still does his laundry. And another sister has my mother raise her kids for her basically). But my youngest brother has basically cut off all ties. Also, me and a few other siblings minimize contact with her. What it comes down to is that we 'do' love her despite it all. We just can't get too close or we get zapped. Take care, -E
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Dear Bunny:
Because of early formational interactions with N parents, we have pockets of "child-like" cognition. Some of our neurological development was traumatized/frozen and some cognition/emotion remains in a child-like state. This could cause problems with becoming triggered easily and reacting impulsively rather than thinking of options (which is more adult and less child-like
fascinating and describes what I think of myself. Where can I get more info on the effect on children of Ns, in this sort of vein? i.e. causes, effects and hopefully how to either manage effects or grow up out of them...any suggestions gratefully received! Thank you, P
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Therapy's purpose is to get development going again. Generally it's a combo of insight, internalizing the therapist's adult parts, and making efforts to practice adult behaviors. We all have "pockets of disorganization" that won't go away completely but they can get smaller and more manageable.
bunny
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I dont know if anyone had time to watch Oprah today, well actually, let me put it this way. I DIDN'T have time, but I DID watch it, LOL, heehee. Ok, now that I told on myself, I will continue with what I wanted to share with yall.
Oprah had the dude that plays spiderman, can't think of his name, and if I heard it, I was probably crunching on my potato chips so loud I missed it anyway, lol. She had him on there and she also had every day heroes that had went way above and beyond to save or help someone. There was a mother on there who had gone on a trip with her husband and children. The kids ran ahead of the parents and jumped into their SUV. The SUV was parked on a decline and as the kids jumped in, it immediately began to roll down the hill towards a cliff's edge. The mother stated that she thought to herself, "I can not live if my children die." She responded very quickly and decided the only thing she could do to slow the vehicle down before it went off of the cliff was to throw herself in front of the moving vehicle in hopes of atleast slowing it down.
That is exactly what she did. She threw herself in front of that moving vehicle and as it ran over her entire body, it lost some of its momentum which slowed it down. This allowed for the grandpa to jump in and apply the emergency brake. They stated it was about 2 seconds from going over the cliff.
Because of doing this, the mother is parallyzed from the waist down. It broke her back in several places when the SUV rolled over her. She stated that she would rather be parallyzed from the waist down then to live without the children. She then stated that she can live with her legs not moving, she just knew she would be parallyzed with grief for the rest of her life if the kids would have died.
It hit me like a ton of bricks. I thought of this thread and I smiled and thought, now that is what Normal Mothering is and should be. I would die for my kids, obviously this woman thought on the same level as normal people do.
I have a feeling that N mothers would first glance down to see what shoes they had on, how far they had to run to help the brats who were to impatient to wait for her because they are selfish, who was she going to spank first or which one of the brats was she going to belittle because she had to exert her precious self and etc.
Huh, a woman who risk her life to save her children versus someone who has to out of their way to get the brats that were to selfish to wait. What a great comparison for this thread.
Sniff, Sniff. I did stop eating my chips during that part. LOL!! You would think I was a queen and was entitled to lounge around and eat bon bons if yall would have seen me today. You name it, I eat it as I did nothing but park on the sectional, lol, oh well, we all deserve those days.
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DOH!!, I had to go get a coke, lol, to wash down the chips probly, lol. I must have been to slow, it logged me as guest, that was me yall. Dang, cant a girl move slowly when her belly's to full. Tisk, Tisk.
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Dear Guest,
Your explanation of the 'Normal' mom from Oprah hits to the core. My own mother would have watched us go over the cliff, sobbing greatly, but live the rest of her life through the comfort of others, and relishing the fact that she is now the center of attention for something so horrible to happen to her family!
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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
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The N's in my family have always been men. I am thankful for my normal mother. My heart goes out to all of you with N mother's.
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A good friend of mine was killed in a car accident recently. Sometimes we would talk about our mothers not realizing that they were N mothers but marvelling at the similarities. At her memorial service I paid particular attn. to her parents. Her father, as expected, was frail and devastated. Her mother seemed a little weepy but managed to bolt down a lot of food and be quite social. She said to another friend of mine: "Well you'll have to come by and be my daughter now." Spoken like a true N I think. This friend is now trying to fill the void. She knows that the daughter-mother relationship was very troubled but has stepped in and already seems trapped. The father was a gem and so I'm happy he will be getting some comfort.
It is also some comfort I suppose to know that this N condition is a deficiency that nobody actually asks for.[still need to get the books so excuse the ignorance] It's a full blown syndrome that seems to take up residence in its host, with similiar manifestations in all N's. I too think my N mother would actually like nothing better than for my H and Children to somehow just sadly [cue the crocodile tears] disappear so she could possess me fully again.
Perhaps it's true that we can all parent and love the child within us.
Your stories touch me deeply - little fuzzy toothless Flower, Ellie with your oh so dramatically sad mother. Just want to gather You all up, MM, Bunny, Portia, Shixie, Guest, Jaded and anyone else writing on the board or just reading this for the first time... for a big cosmic cyberspace hug.
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Less,
Your words are comforting. We all feel such pain from the Ns in our lives.
I too have said my parents would love for my H to die so they can step back into my life and consume me and my children. I know this so strongly that we changed our will to x out all my family members so they could not touch my children in an unfortunate event.
My daughter spent 3 weeks with my parents when she was 3 (only because a snow storm prevented us from driving 4 hours to get her) and my mother would call, put her on the phone and boldly tell her (my daughter) to tell me "she didin't love me anymore, she wanted to live with her grandma." My daughter was so young she didn't comprehend so she said what she was told. She told me later in her life that she remembered standing at their front door crying for me, but my mother dragged her away from the door and fussed at her for crying. She told her her mother and daddy didn't want her anymore - that they left her there and would not come back for her - that she only had them for parents now. She never wants to see them again!
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oops - so sorry - I put Less's name where mine shoud go. The above post is from Ellie. So sorry Less.
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You know what I was thinking today. Just because a woman gives a child life, it does not make her a mommy. A mommy gives a child the love, nurturing, and skills that enable them to LIVE that LIFE to the fullest.
Almost all mammals can breed. It is what you do afterwards that determines their destiny.