Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: surviver on June 07, 2004, 11:03:08 AM
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I found this site about a month ago. I am a male surviver of an 8 yr. relationship (w/2 engagement phases) with an abusive female somatic N. She was picture perfect at the beginning. The first half of the relationship we were very long distance..seeing each other 6 nights per month. The extended honeymoon was grand, and I never picked up the signals or clues to her NPD or her abusivness and destructive nature. When I moved back home and proposed to her ...she within weeks started to dynamite and sabotage the relationship, criticize me, my kids, my entire life in general, she honestly tried to destroy me. I was always trying to figure out what happened, what was going on here, i used to get the worst headaches and I was always so damn confused. She convinced me that our problems were because of me, my kids, my x wife, yet I knew that they were not, yet I succombed to her abuse, for I was afraid to lose her...She did the push pull and it went on (i unfortunately allowed it) for almost 4 years, we must have pushed pulled - on again off again over 100 times...from 2 days apart, to three months, it was insane, I was insane for tolerating it. I finally somehow had the energy left in me to end it and throw her out of my home, we were engaged at the time. Within 1 week she found a newly separtated man and moved in with him. I was stunned beyond my own ability to believe it....I went into PTSD and it lasted for almost 4 months, no sleep, high anxiety, horrible dreams...to whole terrible process. I found a website for CP and Narcissism and was floored with what I found. I was sick to my stomach coming to the realization that I was a victum of the darkest form of abuse imaginable to the loving human soul and loving heart of a man.
It has been 8 months now of hard work and healing. Even with the news of her new found man, I never made contact with her. I knew I had to run to save my life. Everything is clear now, I am about 95% clear of the greiving...still have a little residual to get through.....but the bottom line is I now know the TRUTH about her, I known that she will never change and that all her relationships regardless of the image she tries to portray them in are all just big complete LIES...and I thank GOD to this day that he never answered my prayers to marry this woman.
So one of my final questions is: Do the N's ever get what's coming to them? i.e. what goes around comes around?
Would love to hear the thoughts and experience from this board.
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Hi surviver,
You asked this million dollar question:
So one of my final questions is: Do the N's ever get what's coming to them? i.e. what goes around comes around?
I personally feel that they do not get half of the pain, abuse, confusion, nor the emotional scars that they dish out to everyone who crosses their paths. I think these people spend their hole lives trying to find the perfect mate, the perfect job, the perfect kids, the perfect you name it. They are on a constant search for happiness. Expecting others to make them happy, when all the while they are so miserable inside that they just think the whole world sucks and that nobody is capable of holding up to their end of the bargain. Well, the way I finally figured out that a relationship with a N was a losing deal is when I thought to myself, damn Mindy, youre losing yourself in this realtionship, he is draining everything from you. Ahha, if you have a checking account, you have to deposit from time to time to keep it afloat. If you constantly withdraw and do not deposit, eventually you overdraw.
The N just kept taking those funds out of my heart and soul. He never once thought that he should deposit in my emotional bank. Eventually you begin to lose touch with reality and you begin to believe that maybe it is you. Maybe you did say the things they said you did, maybe you did give them that shitty look or the tone in your voice was harsh, so maybe they did have the right to jump you about something you did or said.
I finally wised up one day and the second he began his chit, I turned on a recorder. I ended up leaving the house and drove to the nearest parking lot and I just sat and listened to your argument. I was shocked. I heard every dang way of manipulation possible from him. It amazes me that N actually attempt, and succeed at times, to twist minds the way they do.
You mentioned that within a short amount of time, your ex-N had shacked up with another man. All I have to say is, if he thinks he has himself a winner, ummm, you came out the winner here. I hope that you dont for one minute think that she has changed for him. Their relationship is hunky dorey because you know better. I mean for god sake, how deeply could you love someone if you have the ability to walk away and not blink an eye. Love is a very deep thing and to N love is only a word to use when they need to manipulate. Their relationship is probably rapidly going down hill just the way yours did. I would venture to bet that one day you will get a call from that dude. He will call to get your input on the mac truck that just plowed him over like she did you.
Congratulations on your recovery. It is a long, hard process but you know, you gain so much insight during that time. I always tried to think of a word that would best describe what it would be like to be a N. The best word I could come up with was PURGATORY. I actually looked up the true definition and lord and behold, this is what I found.
"a place or state of temporary suffering or misery "
Replace that temporary with permanent and it pretty much describes the turmoil they have constantly. So to answer your question, your ex-N already did get what comes around goes around, she lost you, so the only loser there was her, you walked away like a big fat cat. She will live a life of hell inside her head, that seems like a pretty good come around to me.
You will find that special lady that gives back as much as you give. I know it seems hard to imagine right now, but there are good people out there and you just happened to find a rotten apple. That only makes the perfect woman more perfect. If you never experience sadness, how would you ever know how wonderful happiness feels? :wink:
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Hey Jaded...thank you, your response was awesome and dead on in point and fact.
I sincerely appreciate your comments
:-)
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So one of my final questions is: Do the N's ever get what's coming to them? i.e. what goes around comes around?
Their lives are miserably unhappy, confused, chaotic, there is no joy. And they don't know what true achievement feels like. So I would say that they are continually getting what's coming to them. If you want to know whether she will be punished specifically for her behavior toward you, who knows. The best revenge is for you to get happiness out of your life.
bunny
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TY surviver. I know it is very hard to gather up all of the information about the events that took place with her, also about NPD to put them all together in order to figure out what in the hell just happened to you. It took me weeks just to stop crying and then months to figure out which way was up. This board allowed me to have the sense to realize that it was not me and that everything that i had experienced with my N was right on Q with everyone else who has experienced this frazzle.
Nobody can make the pain go away. There isnt a word that anybody could whisper that would make sense of it all because you just have to grasp it first, then let reality set in, then move the hell way beyond it. So many people told me that they had never seen me so vulnerable, sad, confused, and ya know what, its because I had never been before that time in my life. Did any of your friends or family suggest you just quickly move on and forget she ever existed??? Mine sure did. I cant tell you how many people would tell me to just forget about him, hes not worth it. Ya they were right, lol, he wasnt worth the crying, nerve stimulating experience that I went through but I gained so so much insight about myself. The N that was in my life, well thats another story and it is very, very long and I could raise alot of eyebrows with it, but I am not ready to head down that road yet.
You keep plugging along and surround yourself with those who truly care about you. It might be little comfort, but atleast its comfort. I dumped alot of friends over this incident. I had some that just had to do the "I told you so" thing. Screw that, lol, had enough of that with him. Any person that could say that at a time like that, who needs um anyway. Love and support is what got me through the ordeal. Nobody had to tell me the "I told you so's" I already figured it out but just didnt not have the emotional strength to do what I should have done.
Oh what a tangled web they weave, when N practice to deceive. Hey, that actually can be my new motto!! :lol:
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Dear Bunny and Jaded
Thank you again for your replys, I appreciate your wisdom very much.
It is such a shocking reality when it finally hits you. I remain surprised with myself that when I was in the middle of this toxic relationship, always trying to figure out what was wrong with me, my life, my kids, shutting off all communication with my x wife to the detriment of my children...all for the N, that I never once inquired with the web to ask "what's going on here". Although, my sisters knew and they tried to tell me several times to "loose her fast..she's a sick woman" I obviously and unfortunatley ignored them.....I simply had no idea what narcissism really and truly was nor had i any idea about commitmentpobia.....it was all stunning to me.
One of the most difficult components of the healing proicess for me has been overcoming the self-doubt that I somehow developed. I have NEVER had an issue with self doubt in my life. So when she bolted with the new guy..I was so beaten up and depleted that I immediately said to myself...she has the perfect situation now...away from me and all my burdens....then I found the website for CP and narcissism...and like the GOD send that it was...I realized how I had been so horribly abused by her. It literally shook me. I then did a lot of research on PTSD, and the first thing that you read is PTSD does not happen unless a traumatic physical event has occurred or sustained emotional abuse has occurred. I was the later.
What a head trip this has been. Thank you all for listening to yet another N game and victim.
Just a double check question...has what I have portrayed to you on this site typify the N abuse and destruction of relationships that you all have experienced?
Best to you all
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Do they get what they deserve? I personally feel they deserve to be alone so they can not hurt anyone. In my case that is pretty much what happened. With my father, who was completely incapable of taking care of himself, lost first his family. Then the house which he refused to give half to my mom when she left. He never took care of it anyway. Then his health with COPD and chirrosis, from years of smoking and drinking. Any friends he had, either felt sorry for him or disgusted by his bitter stories, spent minimal time if any with him. He ended up living in a hotel and died there a bitter, sick and lonely old man.
With my ex, within 5 years of leaving him died from cancer. I feel sorry for his son, who cared for him and believed all of his lies. His daughter was estranged from him. His house fell into disrepair. His lies and bitterness continued. I asked his daughter if he wanted to make peace with me before he died. She said he didn't. At first I was hurt, but not anymore. He didn't have an opportunity to pour salt into my still open wounds. I feel sorry for his kids. They're left to pick up their lives. But at least he can not create any new damage. In a strange way I felt relief after they died.
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Hi surviver,
"Just a double check question...has what I have portrayed to you on this site typify the N abuse and destruction of relationships that you all have experienced? "
You described perfectly what most experience as a result of a relationship with a N. I found one thing fascinating that you wrote about. PTSD is a common side effect that occurs with a Narcissitic relationship. I also experienced this and it took me awhile to realize what it was that I was experiencing despite my medical background.
As you also mentioned, my self worth began to be questioned by myself. Even though I have a very skilled profession (I am a trauma flight nurse), I began to wonder if I was worth anything, if I was only acting the role of a worthy human being. I think back to times when my N would say, oh you think youre so F"N smart dont you, well your smarts aint gotcha nowhere, cause youre a wanna be." Ummmm, a wanna be what is what I always wondered. I just didnt know how to put all of this crap in its proper place. I remember thinking at the time, huh, I believe it is you who wanna be something so you try to knock me down to your level.
I am schooling right now for my masters in forensics. He used to tell me that I was so so so selfish because all I ever did was study. In a heated arguement, he told me I would do great with working with dead people because I was a cold Fn you know what. That was because I wouldnt agree to forget all of the horrible things he had said to me during an attack, and I wouldnt fall graciously into his love shack that night.
It came to a point and I decided to not put up with his verbal or emotional abuse. I began to throw back hurtful things and man oh man did the chit hit the fan. Got my rib broke over one encounter with him. Even after all of that, I could not find the ability to get the hell out of dodge. I had alot of factors that differed from yours. My main reasoning for staying was he had a 5 yr old precious little girl who I had raised for 2 1/2 yrs. I just couldnt pull myself away from this little girl who came to know me as her mommy. I fought like hell for her and continued to do so after the relationship ended. I often wonder why I couldnt realize that enough was enough and it was time to save my own soul.
That actually refers to the post about normal mothering. I loved that little girl as much as I love my own children so I toughed out what I had to in order for her to have hopes and dreams. So I have no regrets about how long or why I stayed for so long. I gave her love which allowed her to dare to dream of a good future.
The only thing I believe that differs between folks that have been through a N encounter is the amount of will and the ability of each individual to move emotionally and mentally on. I have fought many battles in my life to get where I was before I met him. I just happened to have a tremendous amount of determination and stubbornous. I was not about to let this man hold me in this mental hell 4-ever.
Following our breakup, I realized I had to do what I needed to do to guarantee that precious little girls safety. I went through great measures to ensure that her safety would be maintained. Heck, LOL, he even went as far as attempting to put a restraining order on me. I had 2 choices at that point. #1-I could walk away with the damage he had caused me in order to preserve what was left of me, or #2-The same as number 1 only I had to also fight for a little girl who had every damn right to live a happy, safe, and stable emotional life. I chose #2 and fought my ars off for her. This through him into a crisis as some N can have happen. I read up on everything and by golly, I mean even how to handle a N with success while seeking revenge.
LOL, I betcha he didnt know this dog's bite could be so harsh. I was like a pitbull and I wouldnt change a thing about it.
The damage that these relationships cause can be a wonderful learning experience about yourself. I had to see it this way or he would have won. He would have trapped me into this emotional hell 4-ever. It wasnt worth it to me to give him what he had been seeking during the entire relationship. I finally realize that his intentions were to drag me into his mental hell. Ummm, no thank you! I would rather die an old maid then to ever ever ever ever let this happen to me again. My determination and will to live was way to strong to allow someone else to stomp it out. :twisted:
Journaling helped me so much. I look back at some of my writings and I see a person that I dont even recognize. I see an addict in some of writings. Well hells bells, having addictions hurts noone but the addict. Over time the real Mindy began to surface in my journaling. It was such a bittersweet feeling but then I would rather have that then to just plain ole stay bitter.
You seem like you are way on your way to finding the old you. I meant the old you who is wiser.
Psssssss........Hi bunny!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone, if I did. Was the addict remark about my post? N's frequently have substance abuse problems from what I have read. They hurt more than themselves, they destroy families. Its a double injury. Even if you take the alcohol away they still have NPD. I too am hoping to find answers in my writing.
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Shixie,
I had to read your post about 7 times to try to find something that would or could offend anyone. Hun, I can only speak for myself here, but I did not see one thing that could possibly upset me. Only thing that upset me was that I had to read it 7 times without my glasses, lol. They were upstairs and to be quite honest about it, I was bein lazy.
You know Shix, the good thing about this world is that no matter who you try to please, there is absolutely no way of pleasin um all. You shared your experience and by gosh I believe that is what this message board is all about. Sharing your experiences and finally finding what it is that you had been searching for your entire lifetime. That would be gaining your own voice.
I have read some things on this board that I do not necessarity agree with but I am an adult and I realize that everyone has the right to voice their own opinions. If you want to know something, pssst, you are exactly right about the addictions that some N individuals have. I believe alcohol, drugs, sex, abusive patters, etc. are just a way of dealing with, or should I say not dealing with their anger and the ghosts that haunt them from within.
I guess then if anyone was offended by your statement, they are only denying what most experts state.
I hope Im the one that doesnt offend anyone with my statements, lol. But then again, that wouldnt be the first time and it aint gonna be the last. But as the old saying goes "Opinions are like arsholes, everyone has one, its just a matter of knowing when to share it that counts."
Kudos to you expressing how you feel!!
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Guest above, uhha, that would be Jaded :lol:
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Thank you for your response. Since learning about NPD I look at things differently. I often wonder if substance abuse gets the blame for bad behavior when it in reality is NPD. Curing the addiction doesn't always change the person. Thanks again for responding. :)
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Shixie and Jaded,
My closest friend used to point out to me that my family (non drinkers) resembled that of a "dry drunk". So yes...I would say that NPD is probably the culprit because it so mirrors that of an alcoholic's (or substance abusing) family.
And I am always asking people on the board if I offended because as we all seem to know, it is extremely easy to offend an individual with NPD. I always think everything out of my mouth will offend someone! I hope I didn't offend anyone here LOL.
MM
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Thank you for your response. Since learning about NPD I look at things differently. I often wonder if substance abuse gets the blame for bad behavior when it in reality is NPD. Curing the addiction doesn't always change the person. Thanks again for responding. :)
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MM,
Your statement is so so true. Dealing with a N makes you stop, think, cross your fingers, and hope they take what you say right with your breath held. It does carry over to other people that cross your path. I used to think about every word so not to offend him. Funny how they don't practice what they preach. Their words come out faster and crueler then a damn fightin alley cat.
Then they expect you to just get over it. If you dont, they start slinging the next round of horse chit at ya. I often wondered how N can lay their head down at night.
Boy, what a whicked way to have to live your life.
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Don´t you think that being condemned to a life of unreality and unhappiness is a pretty hard thing to bear? A human being must have been deprived of waaaaay too much before s/he becomes what s/he becomes. I recently left my partner of four years because I could see that I was hurting him. I´ve been told for sooooooo many years that I have no feelings that now I believe it. I believe myself to be a cancer to other human beings and so I stay away from them as much as possible. Is that right? If you really believe that she feels no pain then you are fooling yourself. I´m almost certain that she´s in constant pain. Joy, warmth, companionship, fulfillment - these are the things that make life worth living. To believe that you will never be good enough - as I do despite what people may think to the contrary - is a horrible fate. YOU are the lucky one in this equation... I hope I don´t sound hostile, but have pity for her. just my two cents
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Clueless,
The fact that you can cognitively comprehend how others are affected by you makes me believe that you can learn how to be a contributing factor in a relationship.
I just so happen to be in a relationship with a N. I am not going to sit here and try to make everyone think that it is an easy path to travel on because actually it is quite the contrary. We dated for two years when he abruptly ended the relationship. After I searched the globe all over to try to find an answer to the many questions that were filling my head, I stumbled upon N.
After being apart for several months, I had an opportunity to talk to him and I approached him in a manner that N respond to. I was very monotone, I didnt let my emotions run the conversation. I stated that I believed he was a N and I gave him a little bit of how I perceived him to fit into this personality disorder. Upon researching N he also came to the same conclusion. He has made tremendous progress and to hear his perception of the world and to know the pain he has suffered in silence over the years was a big learning experience for both him and I.
As I mentioned before, this road has not been an easy one to travel but I will tell you this much, unconditional love is excepting those you love for who they are. It is not a free ticket to abuse those you love, it is a chance to be loved for who you truly are. I think that when I presented that opportunity to him, for the first time in his life, he felt he was truly loved and accepted despite his flaws. I am all for giving a person a second a second chance to prove they are worthy. I do not believe in repeated mistakes over and over again. As long as he continues to be aware of those who surrounds him, he continues to see the world through a different set of eyes.
There have been times he has reverted back to his ways. I remain firm on what I will and will not tolerate and he continues to climb his way back up after he falls.
Just the fact that you could write what you did shows to me that you are not so far gone that you cant find your way back. Peace and tranquility is the reward you shall receive. Wouldnt you love to silence those deamons inside your head and your soul??
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Hi Clueless,
Sorry for being a dolt, but I need some clarity. Are you saying you are Narcissist?
Sonia
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Hi guest,
Nice to hear from you. I don´t know how to put the pieces back together, but I know that the fact that other people have told me I have no feelings since the age of 14 ( I am now 29) has really made me afraid of relationships. My mother died when I was 14 and a load of other sh!t happened. I always try to WARN people (even before I heard of N) to stay away from me, and lots STILL come into my life. & yrs ago had a major breakdown and ever since then self esteem SO LOW avoided friends, pretty much gave up on life (Also constantly exhausted etc.) I´m now SO frightened of myself and the abuse I inflict I´ve pretty much given up all my friends. My ex made me feel xtremely scared cause he looked at me with SO MUCH LOVE. I´m scared scared scared to trust anymore... but I wanna live, and love, and BE HAPPY and human if I can be, but it´s a long road. At the mo I´m in a kind of " if this then that phase" and it´s awful... but I´m gonna get help, and I´ve learned a lot and I hope I make up some of the damage some day...
Good luck with your partner, he´s a lucky guy. And take care of yourself too. Thanks so much for writing to me, it means a lot.
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Hi sonia,
I´ve not been diagnosed as an N, but as dissociative, but what I´ve been thru and heard makes me believe I´m an N anyway.
Since my mum died 16 yrs ago people I´ve met have constantly told me that I have no emotions. It´s true that I find emotional ties extremely hard to maintain, I have low self esteem at the moment (major breakdown 6 yrs ago) and I withdrew from almost everyone cause I was so scared of what happened. I couldn´t hear my ex cause I was too scared to get close. If he said s´thing nice I´d get annoyed cause felt I wasn´t good enuogh for my own standards, but what he thought didn´t count as it were. The thing is I left him because I was being indescribably cruel to him because I can´t feel properly. But if you think I don´t feel pain... I do. Everytime he looked at me with love in his eyes I was in pain because I knew I could only hurt him - by being defensive, by ignoring him, by being unhappy. I know I loved him because I used up all my energy trying to block him out (NOT consciously!) It literally made me tired! So just remember, everyone feels pain, somewhere, and try not to be too harsh. N´s know what they are and they know what they´re missing and they know that their lives are hell.
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So just remember, everyone feels pain, somewhere, and try not to be too harsh. N´s know what they are and they know what they´re missing and they know that their lives are hell.
Sorry Clueless,
I'm not of the opinion that Ns have that much awareness. Or at least an awareness that they can change. That's what's so frustrating. My NPD sister can acknowledge that she's extremely selfish and self absorbsed, but seems to have no wish to change. If it's that painful, why not at least wish to change? In fact she stubbornly refuses to make any changes except in her appearance which is superficial.
Can anyone else weigh in on this?
Sonia
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Dear Clueless, you are not an N. I have pity and feel bad for Ns. I don't blame them for their disorders. But you are not an N.
From what I've read, Ns are created in the first two years of life, not at the age of 14. If you were a real NPD person, you wouldn't even 'know' it properly. You don't sound anything like an N. You sound like you have a life ahead of you. And if you want to argue with me, go ahead, you won't hurt me, whatever you say. This is an anonymous message board. So you don't have to worry about hurting anyone who appears to try and get close to you, because we can't. Does that make sense?
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Jaded, you always spit it out just like it is. Good take on all.
Do Narcissists get theirs? They are miserable, tortured people, so what do you think? Who else but someone that feels very, very badly about themselves would have to use their children and significant others as whipping boys?
Of course, that is little comfort to those of us who were "victims," but that's the way it is.
It is up to each of us to protect our own mental health. And, once you are an adult, you have to take care of yourself--a narcissist can't and won't help you at all as they are too sick to even help themselves. Just read this board where there are dozens of examples of that one.
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From what I've read, Ns are created in the first two years of life, not at the age of 14
Actually I've read that narcissistic injury can occur up to a much later date - up to the teens. My sister had something that happened to her at 15 that I beleive set her course as an N. And then my Dad got sick and that made it worse. But of course I'm not an expert.
Sonia
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Hey Sonia,
Took years for me to even acknowledge that I was selfish. I thought if I gave people everything they wanted that was the same as love. What do they want from me I wondered? I'm nothing special... far from it. I'm good at certain things and the rest is just over sentimental nonsense from their part.
If things go wrong I just blame everything on myself, regardless of what's going on. Either I'm blameless or I'm not. I can't interact properly with people. I want to please, and I want to change, but I'm soooooo defensive it's not funny. People who love me scare me.
Now I know that my behaviour is selfish, but the hatred I feel for myself since breakdown is all consuming.... I think N's want to change, but believe there's no point in trying or something... don't know about your sister, but what I see on the subject is also pretty demoralising for those w. NPD.
Also, lot of stuff happened to me when younger. I have 5 brothers (i'm 5th child, only girl) and my oldest 2 brothers left to go to another country and family when Iwas 4 yrs. old. Best friend died at age 6, next 2 brothers left at age 7, moved house a lot, came to new country at 12, then mum died. What I mean is that I've been aware of people saying I have no feelings since the age of 14. I do think my mum's death was just the last straw. I do remember crying when I was about 13 cause some kids were mean to me at school, so I did have some feelings until that age. Hope this isn't too confusing!
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Clueless,
You have empathy for other people. This rules out NPD right off the bat. People with severe narcissism literally cannot walk a mile in someone else's shoes. They cannot imagine how another person feels, let alone care about it. Other people's feelings, to them, are merely a projection of their own needs, demands, and fantasies. I don't think you're in this category. You clearly have empathy and compassion for other people, including narcissists.
Dissociating isn't a classic sign of narcissism. It may be a sign of something else (PTSD for example) and it could be explored in therapy.
Selfishness is a very important thing in appropriate doses. People who want to be "unselfish" usually are the most selfish of all, because they drive everyone crazy by being unable to make decisions, form opinions, tell us what they want, etc. Give me a healthily selfish, assertive person any day. It's true that pathological selfishness is a big problem. I doubt you're in that category.
Being extremely defensive is a problem as you point out. But it's not a permanent condition. With good therapy, it can be diminished greatly. I used to be as prickly as a cactus before I developed more mature defenses. Now I am able to tolerate much more because I'm not as vulnerable and fearful. It's mainly about learning better ways of protecting and enforcing boundaries. It's doable.
Are you in therapy...? Sorry if you already mentioned it and I overlooked it.
bunny
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Oh bunny,
Do I have empathy? Sometimes people I knew used to say that I was compassionate, but if you give a helping hand or a listening ear without your whole heart is that the same thing? I'd meet people and think " hey, for some reason this person seems to like me. They keep on talking to me... and if they were going through something (parents putting on the pressure, lonely or something) I'd listen and try to help. But since my mum died I still had this feeling like " what do they really know about anything? Their parents are still alive, or their 'problems' are trivial - if only they knew how good they have it." I wouldn't let anyone help me with my pain because I had learned not to express emotion so well that I wasn't even aware of my pain.
Since her death I've supressed all my feelings with hard work at school (top notch student) travelling, and since the breakdown with alcohol and cigarettes. I've been in therapy for 4 years, but the shrinks came up with the diagnosis of dissociation/ depersonalisation. I have a very black/white view of the world. My attitude is: if I hadn't done this, then that wouldn't have happened etc.I'm a control freak. It's also true that I have a tendency NOT to listen to others, and to believe my own opinion at all times, so maybe I'm trying to convince myself that I'm an N! But why wiould a healthy person WANT to do that?
Since the breakdown I've experienced such intense feelings of shame that I've virtually turned myself into a recluse. I just cannot communicate with people anymore. All I do is react defensively, extremely negavtively - like I said, only MY opinion counts. Even if not an N, feel extremely low. Empty. Afraid/ paranoid. Don't have one stable identity, or so it seems. I'm obsessed with the breakdown rather than continuing with my actual life.
Anyway, nice to hear from you, thanks for support/ encouragement,
clueless
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Do I have empathy? Sometimes people I knew used to say that I was compassionate, but if you give a helping hand or a listening ear without your whole heart is that the same thing? I'd meet people and think " hey, for some reason this person seems to like me. They keep on talking to me... and if they were going through something (parents putting on the pressure, lonely or something) I'd listen and try to help. But since my mum died I still had this feeling like " what do they really know about anything? Their parents are still alive, or their 'problems' are trivial - if only they knew how good they have it." I wouldn't let anyone help me with my pain because I had learned not to express emotion so well that I wasn't even aware of my pain.
Empathy/compassion doesn't mean you only think positive thoughts while listening. You can also feel angry and judgmental toward the person. Empathy is understanding that person's situation, even if you don't think it's as bad as they think it is. Compassion means you won't further punish them if you happen to feel resentful. You hold back and treat them respectfully instead. For me, empathy and compassion are not easy. I sometimes feel like, Yeah, yeah, cut to the chase, when they're talking. These are my own defenses against anxiety. It doesn't mean I don't have empathy or compassion. But I'm feeling anxious.
I've been in therapy for 4 years, but the shrinks came up with the diagnosis of dissociation/ depersonalisation. I have a very black/white view of the world. My attitude is: if I hadn't done this, then that wouldn't have happened etc.I'm a control freak. It's also true that I have a tendency NOT to listen to others, and to believe my own opinion at all times, so maybe I'm trying to convince myself that I'm an N! But why wiould a healthy person WANT to do that?
Maybe you're trying to hold yourself together with some rigid thoughts. If it works, keep doing it until you get the right kind of help to find a better way.
What does the diagnosis mean in terms of getting you some help? Let's say you dissociate and depersonalize. How do they work with it?
Since the breakdown I've experienced such intense feelings of shame that I've virtually turned myself into a recluse. I just cannot communicate with people anymore. All I do is react defensively, extremely negavtively - like I said, only MY opinion counts. Even if not an N, feel extremely low. Empty. Afraid/ paranoid. Don't have one stable identity, or so it seems. I'm obsessed with the breakdown rather than continuing with my actual life.?
It sounds like you'd like some better ways to deal with other people because this is no longer working too well. Although in this exchange with me, you strike me as a reasonable person.
bunny
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Gosh Clueless,
It seems like you would have seperation anxiety after losing so many people. And moving around a lot and to a new country. That's a lot of stuff to pile on. You must not have felt rooted anywhere.
Although I beleive in therapy, I do know that sometimes they get stuck in a way of thinking and can't offer anymore than they could 4-5 weeks into the process. When I was younger I had some therapy, but because my Husband's TV station kept changing hands, we always had new insurance providers. What I found by going to many therapists is that they all together gave me a better experience than just one person did.
Of course you may not want to change therapists since you've had so many changes in your life situations. But it helped me is all I'm saying.
Good luck to you on your journey.
MM
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all your support! I have yet another layer to add: the breakdown happened after I'd spent 5 yrs living in yet another country where I'd built up a new life. Then I came home (after a failed relationship and a lot of other stuff) only to find myself living w. a woman who could not cope w. being alone. She was extremely jealous/possessive and SHE really rammmed in the no feeling stuff - even though I'd just had a major breakdown and was confused and TIRED! Couldn't get away from her for 4 yrs., ex-boyfriend v. loving but also jealous, which scared me too. All I know is that I'm very scared of feeling what I really think I feel: when I lived with that woman she'd ignore everything I said and tell me " what was best" for me. If I said anything she didn't like she always had the " you have no feelings anyway" reply, even though I was in full blown mourning for all the friends I'd lest in England. I felt like I'd died, but she kept putting the boot in. The thing is, I believe I have some major issues, but after 4 yrs of her I didn't know which way was up anymore. Now I think I'm just like her, except that I'm the passive version to her aggressive version...
I don't know... I see other people, and they are happy and loving and I'm just negative and afraid - aarghhhh!
As for the depersonalistaion, what happens is that I have a different persona for different people, and that's something I've had for yrs. If i was in a room with my ex, my school friends and my family I'd literally go nuts. With my ex, who was very loving and kind but needing a little reassurance Inormal) I' d be overly critical, distant, dismissive. With his friends I was catatonic or extremely restless. And NEVER talked about what I was actually feeling at the time...
Wanna go back into therapy, REALLY discuss issues: first few yrs I just gave the "story" version of my life: when I was 4 this happened, when 6 this happened and btw I disn't need a breakdown/therapy cause I don't have time. I've been thru shit but now I dish it out and I don't like it...
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when I lived with that woman she'd ignore everything I said and tell me " what was best" for me. If I said anything she didn't like she always had the " you have no feelings anyway" reply, even though I was in full blown mourning for all the friends I'd lest in England. I felt like I'd died, but she kept putting the boot in. The thing is, I believe I have some major issues, but after 4 yrs of her I didn't know which way was up anymore. Now I think I'm just like her, except that I'm the passive version to her aggressive version.
This woman was obviously manipulative and a horror to live with. Unfortunately she traumatized you further.
I don't know... I see other people, and they are happy and loving and I'm just negative and afraid - aarghhhh!
What makes you think people are so happy? Most of them are not.
As for the depersonalistaion, what happens is that I have a different persona for different people, and that's something I've had for yrs. If i was in a room with my ex, my school friends and my family I'd literally go nuts. With my ex, who was very loving and kind but needing a little reassurance Inormal) I' d be overly critical, distant, dismissive. With his friends I was catatonic or extremely restless. And NEVER talked about what I was actually feeling at the time...
hmm, this isn't depersonalisation as I understand it. My understanding of it is a state where one feels unreal and can't access reality as we usually know it. What you're describing doesn't sound quite like that, but more like turning off your real self and feeling numb, frozen, or possibly enraged or hostile.
If you're dishing out s*** to people whom you feel don't deserve it, you can absolutely work on that.
bunny
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Sorry but I think this thread has gotten way off the original topic.
Clueless,
I do beleive you have a right to be angry. But not to dole out s**t as you say. Sometimes we need to require more of ourselves.
Yes. That's a judgement. I'm not trying to be a contrarian. It's just a thought that will possibly get you out of your current mode of thinking. It sounds like you need to read about setting boundries so people won't run over you.
You could start a new thread also.
Sid
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sidney,
As I recall, I believe that it was clueless speaking his peace. Why in the hell you thought you could dictate the course of the thread is beyond me. You know what, if you think it is getting way out of hand, then perhaps you should pass this one up.
You sounded bossy and very very insensitive on your post.
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Hey all,
I don't like dishing out s**t to people, so I try not to. What do you do? I LEFT MY EX because i was HURTING HIM. He was VERY sad, his friends thought I should "try harder" and everyone STILL thinks I'm insensitive and cruel. What should I have done? keep on hurting someone AND myself?
Talking about these things on this board has been a REAL help to me, and I'm going to go into therapy again and hope that helps more this time. As for the thread getting out of hand, I'm sorry about that, but I was just repying to people who replied to me.
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I don't like dishing out s**t to people, so I try not to. What do you do? I LEFT MY EX because i was HURTING HIM. He was VERY sad, his friends thought I should "try harder" and everyone STILL thinks I'm insensitive and cruel. What should I have done? keep on hurting someone AND myself?
Hi Clueless,
It is okay to end a relationship that has become miserable, dead-end, etc. If you were unhappy, with almost no hope for improvement, it may be the best thing to end it. However, if you made a sacrifice based on his friends' opinions, that's another story. And if your ex was so sad, he could have ended the relationship. Apparently he didn't choose to do that.
Ignore that other poster. He sounds like a troublemaker/disrupter.
bunny
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Actually I'm not a disrupter. I had something valid to say. Like all of you I have spent a lifetime being invalididated. But one thing I have learned is that getting healthier means being able to take constructive input.
I didn't say you "liked" doling out s**t. Only that you have the power to choose not to do it. And that in not doing it, you would have to require more of yourself.
You also have the power to start a new thread. Just a suggestion.
Sid
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You also have the power to start a new thread. Just a suggestion.
Why don't you start one, if this tangent disturbs you?
bunny
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Actually I'm not a disrupter. I had something valid to say. Like all of you I have spent a lifetime being invalididated. But one thing I have learned is that getting healthier means being able to take constructive input.
My impression here is, "You should be able to 'take' constructive criticism (aka 'input') from me." I don't believe this stance is helpful. You'd need a lot more trust and credibility to give this advice. One person's "constructive input" is not another person's idea of constructive input. And she doesn't have to take anything from anyone. So while your philosophy may be sound, your way of saying it seems too critical.
bunny
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I am gonna move on. I don't want to give this person any more Nsupply. I think you should read between the lines of the posts. Blaming people, doling out s**t. Maybe we should stop trying to convince her she isn't an N. We aren't therapists. My N blamed everyone but the fridge, complained ceaslessly and doled out a lot of s**t. I do hope clueless gets the help she wants/needs.
Thanks.
Sid
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Whoa guys!
Didn't mean to cause all this trouble... Sid has a point about requiring more from self. Am still working on it. As for ex, broke up cause I couldn't communicate, NOT cause of his friends. Hope no one too upset, didn't mean for things to get ugly.
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I am gonna move on. I don't want to give this person any more Nsupply. I think you should read between the lines of the posts. Blaming people, doling out s**t. Maybe we should stop trying to convince her she isn't an N. We aren't therapists. My N blamed everyone but the fridge, complained ceaslessly and doled out a lot of s**t. I do hope clueless gets the help she wants/needs.
Thanks.
Sid
Maybe you're confusing Clueless with your ex. I think Clueless is blaming herself for almost everything. And I don't see her doling out s*** on this group or blaming anyone. No one is trying to convince her of what she is, or is not.
bunny
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Bunny,
Please be clear about a few things that are apparently assumed. First of all I'm not a guy and my N is not an ex. And I wasn't the one who said CL doled out the s**t..she did. I didn't say she directed it at anybody here.
As far as blaming - the roomate (why live with this for 4 years?) if she was so bad, other people telling her she has no feelings (I heard blaming there, sorry).
I heard red flags. I think we should be circumspect about drawing Ns into this group. She keeps insisting she's an N. I don't know and neither do you. I just think a constant stream of commisseration isn't helpful to anyone here at times when the person is a bottomless pit (as my N was but i'm not getting them confused). If she is an N, I'm sure she has gotten what she wanted to from this infighting (needless infighting I might add). I am sorry if I sound critical. I'm just waaaaay over this. Post on if you like. I shouldn't have responded to you and won't again...my bad.
And hey, what's ugly about a spirited discussion? I'm not mad. And I can live with whatever take you have on things. But it's different than mine...even my way of expression.
Sid
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Hi surviver,
"Just a double check question...has what I have portrayed to you on this site typify the N abuse and destruction of relationships that you all have experienced? "
You described perfectly what most experience as a result of a relationship with a N. I found one thing fascinating that you wrote about. PTSD is a common side effect that occurs with a Narcissitic relationship. I also experienced this and it took me awhile to realize what it was that I was experiencing despite my medical background.
As you also mentioned, my self worth began to be questioned by myself. Even though I have a very skilled profession (I am a trauma flight nurse), I began to wonder if I was worth anything, if I was only acting the role of a worthy human being. I think back to times when my N would say, oh you think youre so F"N smart dont you, well your smarts aint gotcha nowhere, cause youre a wanna be." Ummmm, a wanna be what is what I always wondered. I just didnt know how to put all of this crap in its proper place. I remember thinking at the time, huh, I believe it is you who wanna be something so you try to knock me down to your level.
I am schooling right now for my masters in forensics. He used to tell me that I was so so so selfish because all I ever did was study. In a heated arguement, he told me I would do great with working with dead people because I was a cold Fn you know what. That was because I wouldnt agree to forget all of the horrible things he had said to me during an attack, and I wouldnt fall graciously into his love shack that night.
It came to a point and I decided to not put up with his verbal or emotional abuse. I began to throw back hurtful things and man oh man did the chit hit the fan. Got my rib broke over one encounter with him. Even after all of that, I could not find the ability to get the hell out of dodge. I had alot of factors that differed from yours. My main reasoning for staying was he had a 5 yr old precious little girl who I had raised for 2 1/2 yrs. I just couldnt pull myself away from this little girl who came to know me as her mommy. I fought like hell for her and continued to do so after the relationship ended. I often wonder why I couldnt realize that enough was enough and it was time to save my own soul.
That actually refers to the post about normal mothering. I loved that little girl as much as I love my own children so I toughed out what I had to in order for her to have hopes and dreams. So I have no regrets about how long or why I stayed for so long. I gave her love which allowed her to dare to dream of a good future.
The only thing I believe that differs between folks that have been through a N encounter is the amount of will and the ability of each individual to move emotionally and mentally on. I have fought many battles in my life to get where I was before I met him. I just happened to have a tremendous amount of determination and stubbornous. I was not about to let this man hold me in this mental hell 4-ever.
Following our breakup, I realized I had to do what I needed to do to guarantee that precious little girls safety. I went through great measures to ensure that her safety would be maintained. Heck, LOL, he even went as far as attempting to put a restraining order on me. I had 2 choices at that point. #1-I could walk away with the damage he had caused me in order to preserve what was left of me, or #2-The same as number 1 only I had to also fight for a little girl who had every damn right to live a happy, safe, and stable emotional life. I chose #2 and fought my ars off for her. This through him into a crisis as some N can have happen. I read up on everything and by golly, I mean even how to handle a N with success while seeking revenge.
LOL, I betcha he didnt know this dog's bite could be so harsh. I was like a pitbull and I wouldnt change a thing about it.
The damage that these relationships cause can be a wonderful learning experience about yourself. I had to see it this way or he would have won. He would have trapped me into this emotional hell 4-ever. It wasnt worth it to me to give him what he had been seeking during the entire relationship. I finally realize that his intentions were to drag me into his mental hell. Ummm, no thank you! I would rather die an old maid then to ever ever ever ever let this happen to me again. My determination and will to live was way to strong to allow someone else to stomp it out. :twisted:
Journaling helped me so much. I look back at some of my writings and I see a person that I dont even recognize. I see an addict in some of writings. Well hells bells, having addictions hurts noone but the addict. Over time the real Mindy began to surface in my journaling. It was such a bittersweet feeling but then I would rather have that then to just plain ole stay bitter.
You seem like you are way on your way to finding the old you. I meant the old you who is wiser.
Psssssss........Hi bunny!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:
I was stunned beyond my own ability to believe it....I went into PTSD and it lasted for almost 4 months, no sleep, high anxiety, horrible dreams...to whole terrible process. I found a website for CP and Narcissism and was floored with what I found. I was sick to my stomach coming to the realization that I was a victum of the darkest form of abuse imaginable to the loving human soul and loving heart of a man
How well I know that feeling, the nausea and feeling of lead in the bottom of the stomach.
I was given a medical leave from work for three months because of the depression, and that was after four months of living much as you described, and a close shave with driving myself into a tree. I was also diagnosed with PTSD.
I am going on my 11th month of therapy. Every time I think I am getting better, he is back, somehow or another into my life--either at meetings or postings online or someway.
It helps to read of others experiences...thanks..
fiddlinblues
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Please be clear about a few things that are apparently assumed. First of all I'm not a guy and my N is not an ex. And I wasn't the one who said CL doled out the s**t..she did. I didn't say she directed it at anybody here.
My apologies for the misconceptions. Since Clueless doesn't dole out s*** here, it's possible she isn't doling it out anywhere. Some people imagine they're much worse than they are. If she is doling out bad treatment, she can get help for that, and she intends to. So what is the problem.
As far as blaming - the roomate (why live with this for 4 years?) if she was so bad, other people telling her she has no feelings (I heard blaming there, sorry).
There are many reasons for people to remain in abusive situations. Being told "you have no feelings" is not an accurate assessment, but an attack.
I heard red flags. I think we should be circumspect about drawing Ns into this group. She keeps insisting she's an N. I don't know and neither do you. I just think a constant stream of commisseration isn't helpful to anyone here at times when the person is a bottomless pit (as my N was but i'm not getting them confused). If she is an N, I'm sure she has gotten what she wanted to from this infighting (needless infighting I might add). I am sorry if I sound critical. I'm just waaaaay over this. Post on if you like. I shouldn't have responded to you and won't again...my bad.
I don't believe we are "drawing N's into the group." She is not insisting she is a narcissist, she is *afraid* she is one (totally different thing). I'm glad you're way over this and farewell.
bunny
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Clueless, I just read this thread afresh and wanted to pop back and say: from reading here, you didn’t cause any trouble at all. I don’t think anyone’s upset and it doesn’t look ugly to me, just a usual board exchange, really. No big deal.
What did you think of bunny’s comments:
hmm, this isn't depersonalisation as I understand it. My understanding of it is a state where one feels unreal and can't access reality as we usually know it. What you're describing doesn't sound quite like that, but more like turning off your real self and feeling numb, frozen, or possibly enraged or hostile.
If you're dishing out s*** to people whom you feel don't deserve it, you can absolutely work on that.
? I agree with the “turning off your real self”. How did you feel/react to what bunny said? P
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Guys,
Sidney asked why I lived with this woman for 4 yrs. I lived with her for 4 years because she kept threatening to kill herself if I left. I was in major confusion, depression, and I was scared of her.
As for the turning off my real self? Sounds about right. I get frozen and scared. I'm gonna work on finding myself again, hope shrink can help.
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Hey that's what shrinks are there for.
'Voicelessness and emotional survival' - is not just about Ns either. Hope you use the board to keep using your voice. It's a great place to practice for the 'real' world. (Though sometimes I think the board is the real world and it's the others that are fakes!) P
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I'm back and guess what? The N/CP has received her just deserts...she is in a classic narcissitic crash period, and desperate. She called me out of the blue this past Friday morning, crying, sobing, desperate, begging me to talk with her in person for 30 minutes. We had not spoken in 8 months, read my post above that started this thread on June 7, and you will know the horrific pain this woman caused me.
All I can tell everyone on this board who has endured or is still enduring the horror of one of these people in their lives or recent life and is still grieving them is: Maintain ABSOLUTE ZERO CONTACT!!!!!!!!!!! AT ALL COSTS.....these people have no remorse, they only have the ability to look out for themselves, they care about noone, they are of a world wherein their self absorption is literally incomprehensible to a normal loving being......
I held my ground on the phone, maintained my kind demeanor and told her that I cannot help her anymore. She said that she hates her life, that her relationship with this guy is over and was terrible....I am telling you people, if I had not found the support groups, read the books and worked through the 8 months of hard painful healing...I could have been drawn (lured) back into her physcdrama. The pain was rising in my heart as we spoke, I kept the call to less than 5 minutes.....I must tell you all however.....I feel and truly believe that i must still run away for it is still not safe for me....
Thoughts?
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Survivor,
You did really well!! I absolutely agree with you about no contact. Of course it would have been a disaster again. She hasn't learned anything whatsoever -- but you have. You handled it with aplomb. Kudos!
bunny
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Maintain ABSOLUTE ZERO CONTACT!!!!!!!!!!! AT ALL COSTS.....these people have no remorse,
Survivor,
Good for you keeping up the boundries. The only thing I have to add is to not get tempted to have any more contact with this person. Do you have caller I.D.?
Sonia
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Joining this late in the game...
I've never know anyone who was as miserable as my N father in-law. Most normal people seek to get as far away from an N as is humanly possible as quickly as possible because the N causes them pain. The one thing they are generous with is the pain. They like to spread it around.
Now, imagine: you can never get away from that. The N, that is you, is always there 24/7. How miserable would you be?! He/she makes himself or herself as miserable as they make us and they can never get away! Ever!
Now that's hell.
But I won't be crying any tears for them because it's not that they CAN'T get away, it's that they DON"T WANT TO. NPD is an Axis II disorder. It is not, like schizophrenia, an Axis I disorder. Axis II sufferers have a lot more control over their illnesses. Some researchers have discounted genetics as a predicting factor entirely and say that Axis II folks have total control over their behaviors.
From what I've read and learned, most N's can control their behavior, but they choose not to. They usually demonstrate this control when they want to impress someone or are faced with huge consequences. On this little piece of information alone, I am convinced that Ns are in total control of their actions. As such, I am sorry that the N is miserable, but they made that bed of misery.
P.S. Way to go on freeing yourself from that soul-sucking vampire!
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Surviver, CONRATULATIONS! Absolutely, maintain zero contact and get out of Dodge. I'm proud of you.