Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on December 12, 2007, 05:44:33 PM
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Hi everyone,
I am reflecting that perhaps when there is a subject on the board that arose and belongs between two posters, it might be better if it remains between them. In public. In safety. I know there are no "rules" (other than the essential civility and good intention that Doc G ensures...when we fail to). So this is just a thought:
I'm thinking, for example, that if anyone wanted to express understanding and support to either person involved, they might do so privately. Then the two would have the safety of speaking to each other --or not -- (or about each other, as necessary) in this public space, with friends around them...but there wouldn't be the flame-fanning, leaping-to-defense-of, slicing-dicing, victim! bully! accusations, whether using "real" board names or Anonymice, that have occured so egregiously here. I have found the religion-slinging the most unfortunate aspect...Bible verses don't make good spears, imo, and aggressive displays of piety just register as aggression. And often self-righteousness. (We never used to have so muuuuuch piety, here. But with each new group, things do change.)
The people in conflict could work their way to a solution in the safety of the public space. That solution could be No Contact (that can be a wise and responsible choice, depending on what you're dealing with -- how often do we cheer each other on to be strong enough to stay disengaged in our own lives?), a new negotiated boundary, full resolution and ease of all tension, or something else. That's up to them. Personally, I avoid a lot of PMing because to me, I can suddenly feel isolated and "dragged under the stairs" so I'm very cautious about who I trust in that space.
True colors shine, and some intuitive impressions may get confirmed when there's a fight.
I feel badly for new people who urgently need the support of this place, or a place like this, and who may be lurking horrified at the immaturity and lack of restraint displayed in so many posts. And thus, take their feelings of voicelessness away, and lose the hope of participating here. To them, I apologize. (Please revisit us. The board goes through changes and has a core kindness and generosity that can still be there for you.)
I don't think that wit or education or verbal agility relate to character. Nor do volume of posts.
I love this board, and hope that some humility (please don't describe how humble you are) could do a lot to restore the positive atmosphere that normally characterizes this sweet space.
love to all in this roiling season,
Hops
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Hops,
I agree with you, and I'm glad that you made this post.
When I rejoined the board, as I was preparing for a formal break from my FOO, I found this to be a wonderfully supportive place. I'm not sure I could have gotten through some of the situations that I've gotten through without the wonderful folks here.
Not long after I moved though, the board changed and became a place where I was cautious about posting. I've noticed it seems a lot of threads erupt in mud-slinging and flames lately. It makes me very sad, and I'm often reluctant to post at all.
I do hope this board returns to the wonderful, positive place that was so supportive when I didn't have anyone else to support me.
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Hops, I still say, if you're ever in the market for it, you'd make an AWESOME Christian or...maybe even an attorney :)
I LOVE this board, even in spite of mudslinging, naysaying, verbal attacks, martrydom, heroism, satire...it's all so very HUMAN and refreshing!
~Laura
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With sincerity, I would like to convey my heartfelt thanks to Dr Richard Grossman for this board
for his time and dedication in making it possible for so many members, visitors, and guests - worldwide
to have a place of expression, with freedom, and with respect, of Voicelessness and Emotional Survival.
Which, personally, has given me the opportunity to voice my 'new pair of shoes' in which I presently stand
and to receive precious affirmation and validation as a human being, me, Leah.
Sincerely, a big "Thank You"
This space is very much valued and appreciated.
Gratefully,
Leah
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Thank You Dr. Grossman-
I believe that this board has literally saved my life. I am extremely grateful for what you have done to provide this resource and could never thank you enough. It continues to be a lifeline for me and I never take it for granted. And thank you to the many people who have helped me go through so much. Some of us, like me, have very little in the way of traditional social support in tackling serious problems. This board makes all of the difference to us.You are so very important and so much appreciated.
Love,
Changing
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Hi Hops,
As a newbie on this board I have some learning to do here. As I read your post I heard your dissapointment, or frustration or some emotions, I can tell the whole thing (not going to bring it up) was uncomfortable to you. I want to acknowledge your feelings and let you know that I am sorry for any pain I caused you. I'm not admitting wrong I am just saying that I've got some growing to do...perhaps one day I'll change my name to "meek" from "gabben", doubtful though.
I understand that you are not religious and I respect that. I also realize that strong religious piety can be uncomfortable to others. What may seem strong to you though is only a inkling to me. However, I will walk the tight rope of consideration to others as best as I can when approaching the subject of my faith, without censoring myself -- because I know that that is not what you are saying.
Lessons learned today, with love,
Thanks,
Lise
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Lise, I love the way you put that..."walk the tightrope of consideration" when it comes to other's faiths...not me...I tend to hang out on the trapeze, dangling frequently in front of people saying "look at me...I'm a follower of the Lord...don't you want to know Him too?" as I swing back n forth.
I am learning how to be content on a more stationary aparatus lately though.
smiles,
~Laur
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Good thread Hops. I love hearing sane input when I need it. Sometimes I am just out there and need people to tell me to step back or when they tell me "good job!" As for my faith-it is there. Like when I thought we were gonna crash at the Dallas airport-I WAS PRAYING! My mom shoved it down my throat so I had to figure it out ALL BY MYSELF with no pushing. I feel it. I got comfort knowing my MIL is now in heaven. I hate the fighting but I really do love the people!
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Thank you, everybody, for the wit and grace.
(Got a dog story for you, Bean, coming right up.)
xxoo all,
Hops
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Helpful Reminder List --- for Newbies and Oldies
Abusers can be masters of disguise and covert operations. He or She hones their skills to expert precision, lest people see through the mask to the ruthless ambition and envy beneath.
Above all, the abuser seeks to keep that mask firmly in place so as not to lose the support of those who've been fooled by the outer facade.
This list of characteristics describes abusers and gives an awareness of the techniques used by * chameleons * who may be male or female.
1. Charming in public - exuding warmth and charm, an abuser smiles and tells jokes, praises and flatters you, outwardly supports you with a show of approval and reassurance, makes you feel valuable and appears to be attentive to your needs.
2. Rumor-monger in private - criticizing you behind your back, he may suggest that you have personal or emotional problems, carefully building a case against you via calculated misinformation passed on to others behind the scenes. He manipulates others into criticizing you and then rewards them for their participation in his plot to undermine your image in every way.
3. Two-faced - He pretends to support you while planning to destroy you; then when you challenge him, he suddenly transforms from supportive to bullying. His soft-spoken manner hides his destructive intentions, his flattering words hide his desire to control you, and his seemingly warm personality hides his take-no-prisoners attitude.
4. Distorts truth and reality - He misleads people by omitting key facts. He's extremely concerned to preserve an appearance of integrity, all the while withholding significant information. He misleads people by omitting key facts, he quotes hearsay as important and authoritative, then, justifies his opinion by falsely claiming others think the same way.
Master of the half-truth, he miss-states and belittles your viewpoint, asks questions that demean you, then interrupts before you can fully respond, he changes the subject before you can correct his miss-statements, then he adds new false accusations faster than you can respond to the old ones.
5. Hypocritical - His spoken philosophy and behavior don't match, his words creating a positive image which does not match his actions. He describes his mistakes as minor, but your mistakes as serious, or ignores his own mistakes while always highliting yours. - He calmly demeans you, but is angry because you don't respect him. Not respecting him = pointing out the inconguities and inconsistencies between who he claims to be and what he actually does and says.
6. Evasive - He acts confused by any complaint about his behavior and always shifts the focus to others. He acts like he is the one who is being victimized. He tries to make you feel guilty for hurting him, accusing you of behavior that was far worse than his and asserting that you are the cause of his bad behavior (if he ever does admit to behaving badly).
7. Pompous - He acts like a know-it-all and never apologizes, unless to prove how rarely he makes a mistake. He's a prima donna ... condescending in words, tone of voice and mannerisms. Every issue which effects him is high drama and he'll try to demolish the opposition in every discussion to keep the focus on himself.
8. Self-righteous - In order to disguise his corrupt character, he always claims the moral and ethical high ground. He brags about the goodness of his own character while suggesting that others have dubious motives. He frequently talks of his superior ethical standards, implying that others don't have his high standards and using distorted examples to prove that others are not nearly as superior as he.
9. Obsessed with image - He believes that his image is more important than reality, so he disguises his true emotions and desires. When you see beneath his persona, he will suggest that your actions have hurt his image. Alternatively, he says that your proposed actions (i.e., exposing him) will hurt your own image.
10. Passive-aggressive - He'll keep you in the dark by sulking, instead of confronting issues.
11. Pretends to care - While pretending to care about others, he is at his most manipulative and dangerous. Most people are taken in by his apparently positive energy, enthusiasm and charisma, but in reality, they are naively being fooled by an attractive personality which hides a morally and ethically corrupt abuser who is coldly and ruthlessly pursuing his own selfish ends.
His expression of affection is tainted with possessiveness and he compliments you only because it serves his purpose. He has a look of concern, but he doesn't truly respect you.
He pretends to be your friend while tearing you down, destroying your reputation, weakening your position, and exaggerating the importance of your mistakes.
12. Plays the victim - He exaggerates his pain and suffering, trying to make you feel guilty for causing his pain and claiming that you don't appreciate him.
He becomes angry and indignant when you try to reason with him, then says he is tired of doing all the compromising.
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Leah.... that list made me sigh so hard my lungs hurt :shock:
The list of 12 little things.... pretty much lays out exactly what one comes up against, when they meet the sheep that says
"wolf wolf."
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Dear Lighter,
The above list is firmly placed in the front of my 'life' folder, as a 'life' resource, as never again, is my heart's cry, do I want to have to be confronted with, and endure, such like behaviour again.
Prefer my friends to be up front 'warts n all' open and honest, as i am with them, and to each say sorry, when we slip up with each other, as we do, we all do as interactive relational healthy human beings. Mere mortals :)
Receiving an email, as I shared couple of weeks ago, from a friend of long ago, who apologized for 'dropping me' in the midst of my despair whilst I was in my own DV and A situation, was heartwarming and pure joy as that friendship is renewed, and now the friendship is on a more real level too, as I had keep silent about my suffering prior to refuge.
Wonderful liberating difference. Today, my view in my real life is 'quality' of real friends, rather than quantity.
Love, Leah
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I guess the "point" in all of this (the board) is to find our precious and lost(usually) voice.If we had different FOO's, we would not need a place like the board to find "ourselves". We would HAVE a strong "self". My Aunt was commenting on a person. My Aunt said that the person did not have a strong enough sense of self. My Aunt never had therapy etc. She just had the intuition to KNOW that you MUST have yourself in this world. If not, you are like a plane flying without radar.
It is our compass, our sonar.
Richard allows us to have a "cyberspace" life we we CAN find our voice. That is the goal of the board,as I see it.Everything else is secondary.
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CB, in regards to what you shared about my "trapeze act," triggering some people, I want to assure you that I am also a studier of people, and I would not use the same method with someone who was abused spiritually, as I would with simply someone who needed salvation. Knowing that something bothers someone, the Bible tells us "if it offends...DO NOT DO IT...do not cause a weaker brother to stumble."
I counsel abuse victims, with the main focus having been SPIRITUAL ABUSE. I would NEVER purposely trigger someone if I knew something I did was causing it. That's just CRUEL and WRONG.
Blessya,
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
With regard to your above post may I ask some questions.
> How would you know that someone who came onto the board had been 'spiritually abused' ?
> How would you arrive at the knowledge that someone 'needed' salvation ?
> How would / will someone know that you * speak * as a Pastor ?
> Have you / do you always give your Pastoral Support to all here on board - regardless of Christian Denomination ?
These, I feel are valid and most important poignant questions.
Thank you
Love, Leah
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Gee... and I though the whole point was to get cyber laid@@
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Lighter, may I ask or DARE I...hehe, what "cyberlaid" is?
Leah asked me some good questions here:
> How would you know that someone who came onto the board had been 'spiritually abused' ?
I am not a mind-reader, although I do have some prophetic giftings and gifts of discernment, so in answer to your very good question, Leah, I'd know by simply talking with the person or observing what they write.
> How would you arrive at the knowledge that someone 'needed' salvation ?
Once again, either God would show me somehow and I'd talk the person about it or the person would come to me. (there have been people who came to a yard sale at my house, whose children were sweating and thirsty, that i gave koolaid and cookies to and then prayed with the parents to receive Jesus as savior and Lord. It was by my practical meeting of their needs, that they wanted to know the Love that I shared with them through Jesus) It's all about meeting needs and opening up one's heart to the hurting. Jesus did the same.
> How would / will someone know that you * speak * as a Pastor ?
by asking me or by my telling them. See, for me, it's not about a title. It has always been about being the hands/feet of my Lord to others, and, the times I came on here in the wrong spirit, HE corrected me and I did what I could to make things better with that other person. Being "pastor" doesn't give me a badge of perfection in any way. It only means that I have agreed to devote my life to shepherding those that God gives me.
> Have you / do you always give your Pastoral Support to all here on board - regardless of Christian Denomination ?
This is an AWESOME question. I definitely do my best these days to be unbiased toward people. I have a theory about it that I might share sometime, because it's a bit controversial. People are people, no matter what belefs they have. I have met people in my life, of all beliefs...pagan, satanist, new age, wiccan, Catholic, Baptist, Onenness, etc...just to name a few. I have done my best to treat them all with dignity and respect and to not do things that would offend them. I'm not an expert at it, but I want people to know they have value on this earth, whether or not I see them in eternity (based on my beliefs)
These, I feel are valid and most important poignant questions.
Those were VERY valid and important. Thanks for sharing them with me.
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Dear Laura,
Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions.
May I ask another valid question with reference to your answers ...
> Are you referring to * backdoor * PM Land ?
> Or are you referring to out in the open on the board ?
By the way, my reference to you as Pastor is in response to your declaration on your thread that you have been a Pastor for 10 years
and extend / offer Pastoral Support here.
Thank you
Love, Leah
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Leah, gosh I hate text-typing...I'm going to attempt to answer your questions yet again, but I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.
> Are you referring to * backdoor * PM Land ?
> Or are you referring out in the open on the board ?
I'm thinking that you are asking me where I'd apply my answers...to private messaging or to pubic forum? Is that right?
If it is, and for now, I'll assume so, I was referring to anywhere...private, public, in-person, online, at church, at someone's home, etc.
By the way, I had an interesting experience recently. My daughter and I went to a Birthday party at the home of one of her classmates. After some time into the Hawaiin party, I began to realize the people were not of like faith.
After a while, I finally inquired of a couple of them "are you pagan or wiccan?" they both said "you guessed it. we're pagan. How did ya know?" It made for an interesting convo, filled with computer pics of the one lady belly dancing with a scintar atop her noggin, and poi. (fire spinning).
Many people have labeled me an ECCLECTIC Christian, because I'm open-minded as far as accepting and being interested to understand other peoples' beliefs. Do I have an alterior motive? well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I know not everyone WILL accept Jesus in the end and my job is not to force Him on people. My job is to love people where they are at, and pray for them to one day want Him. I guess it makes it easier for some people to get along with me. I just think that many Christians are too quick to label and decide they are against others, without even knowing what those others are all about.
I'm a curious sort.
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
Thank you for your answers.
It was important to know how you would ascertain / decide when someone comes onto the board
that the person would be in need of your Pastoral Support as a Pastor of 10 years (as you openly declared yesterday on the board)
and more importantly how you would know that they 'needed' salvation --- or how you would know that they had been 'spiritually
abused' (as you mentioned in your earlier post above)
as not everyone wears these very personal matters on their sleeves.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
Edit: And I do still wonder as to how anyone coming onto the board (or a guest standing by) would know that you are a Pastor of 10 years
who extends / offers Pastoral Support -- as there is no indication of such in the overall 'profile' or 'identity' of your postings.
And I can't help wondering as to who would ever / or be able to (if in a state of FOG) consider to enquire as such in the first instance?
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no problem, Leah.
I try my best nowadays to treat people the way I'd want to be treated. Sometimes that results in my being abused and other times, it means good relationships. Such is the world today.
~Laura
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Laura,
Having read through this thread, I have a question of my own. I have been a victim of "spiritual abuse." I am not asking for support or for help. I am only curious. I consider my faith very personal, and my relationship with God is private. I do not discuss it. I am not a "person of faith" as you mention in one of your posts. I do not attend church. I have no desire to attend church. My experiences with Christianity have been mixed, but mostly I do not care the hypocrisy I often see in the church. For instance, I once emailed the main office of the church I sometimes attend to ask if a potential partner and I would be welcomed within the church family. I was told that it depended on the congregation, the pastor and the church itself, as some churches were more liberal, however the philosophy of the church itself was that they did not condone such a "lifestyle."
I am not going to argue whether my beliefs and my sexual orientation are right or wrong or whether or not I am living in sin. You posted:
Many people have labeled me an ECCLECTIC Christian, because I'm open-minded as far as accepting and being interested to understand other peoples' beliefs. Do I have an alterior motive? well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I know not everyone WILL accept Jesus in the end and my job is not to force Him on people. My job is to love people where they are at, and pray for them to one day want Him. I guess it makes it easier for some people to get along with me. I just think that many Christians are too quick to label and decide they are against others, without even knowing what those others are all about.
My question is, are you an eclectic Christian because you are interested in listening to other people's beliefs, or because you are accepting of people in general, as God made them?
T
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I'm ecclectic about people's spiritual beliefs and I really don't talk much about their sexual orientation. My Bible is clear enough about that and I let it speak for itself if people care to read it.
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I see.
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With clear reference to 'Spiritual Abuse' and 'Pastor(s)' ONLY
One day, I may, or may not, share, by adding to my 'Life Story' on the 'Story Board' about the spiritual abuse I endured and witnessed at the instigation of multinational renowned Pastor(s) whose brutish NPD behaviour and the miss use and miss interpretation of the bible, and the evident abuse of the name of G-d (which still sickens me to the core) along with the deception. All of which, caused so many precious people to walk away from G-d --- either for a season (as in my case) or worse still, permanently. My escape, the effects of my escape, and of later on; finding the true truth - my healing and restoration, is truly, a life story in itself.
Love, Leah
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Hi Leah,
That would be great, to post somewhere about spiritual abuse, etc. Maybe in your Members Story thread.
Hope you will.
Hops
Hi ((((((((Tay)))))))))).
love
Hops
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Hi Leah,
I hope someday you will share your story. ((((((hugs)))))
T
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Thank you (((( Hops )))) and (((( Tay )))) .... think that now I am now free to share my story of escaping from spiritual abuse.
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I agree that there has been MUCH spiritual abuse in the name of GOD and JESUS and others.
i want to comment about a couple things here. First of all, if you are a follower of Christ, it is a PERSONAL not a PRIVATE relationship. In other words, if you believe in following the scriptures, you are meant to go out unto all the world and preach the gospel to all nations, not say "oh its between me and God." If you are not a practicer of this faith, that might explain why you feel it is meant to be a private thing that you don't tell others about.
Secondly, yes there are ministers who abuse and who have been publically caught doing horrid things. There are people right on this board that could have the same things spoken about them, however. People are people...ministers, bystanders, teachers, mothers, sisters, whatever. I don't think it is fair to target ministers as being the only N's or even the main ones.
Thirdly, there are some really good books that help people who have been abused spiritually.
~Laura
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Please don't take what I say out of context, CB. I included more than just a blanket statement about not condemning ministers...I explained that ministers and others ALL fall into the same sins, mistakes, behaviors.
I'm not going to put myself as above anyone because I'm a minister, by any means. I think I've shared a lot about the struggles I have, very openly and honestly and will continue to do so. I am not someone to fear or be intimidated by, and if I knew that I was appearing that way to someone, I'd do my darndest with God's help, to become more "touchable" and less domineering.
Anyway, on we go.
~Laura
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As I have already mentioned, my life story of escaping from spiritual abuse will (at such time as I decide to share) will be posted in 'Leah's Story' on the 'Members Story Board'
Please note: NO Pastoral Support is required, thank you.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
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Edit: And I do still wonder as to how anyone coming onto the board (or a guest standing by) would know that you are a Pastor of 10 years
They wouldn't. I am a text-entity at this moment.
who extends / offers Pastoral Support -- as there is no indication of such in the overall 'profile' or 'identity' of your postings.
I didn't include my title in my postings purposely, not because of myself but because of others who might immediately form a wall up against me because of it.
And I can't help wondering as to who would ever / or be able to (if in a state of FOG) consider to enquire as such in the first instance?
what does this mean in laymen's terms?
Dear Laura,
Thank you for taking the time to answer all the questions on this thread, relative to your Pastoral Support role as a Pastor.
Very much appreciated, as it brings much clarity and understanding, for everyone, Newbies and Oldies, of which I feel is important.
I don't have any more questions.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
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Hi guys,
I'd like to start a Welcome for Newbies thread, in which we are about them...maybe just messages to reassure and welcome folks who might be hanging back.
So...I will go do that.
xo
Hops
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Hops,
I've written elsewhere on here today that I think it would be good if Dr G were to set out some kind of 'ground rules' (other than the Terms which we all sign up to when we join the forum). I suspect that is very different from what you meant, then? Did you want your other thread to kind of 'welcome' newbies, only, written by 'us' rather than 'him' (as the owner of the board)?
I know that when I originally joined here, I was in such a rush to get signed in that I didn't read any 'Terms' - I just ticked the box! So I do think a list of Rules would be useful, but I'm not suggesting that you, Hops , should write them! I do think a general 'welcome' thread would be good for newbies, though.
Janet
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Dear Hops,
The sock puppet, in my opinion, is a form of deception (mostly depending on how it is used - though), it is a form of a type of mind game. It CAN play with our intuitive hearts, gut feelings causing confusion and fear.
We want to trust what we see. I know that my N mom used to tell me that what I was thinking, seeing and what I was feeling were not what I was thinking and what I was feeling. So, having a sock puppet feature can be a trigger for those of use who are trying to perceive reality clearly.
Lise
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Hi Janet,
You got it, exactly, that is what I intended--
Did you want your other thread to kind of 'welcome' newbies, only, written by 'us' rather than 'him' (as the owner of the board)?
Thanks.
love
Hops
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Ever since the first day that I came across this board in January 2007 there have been people posting as GUESTS.
And during the chaos earlier on, and throughout this year, I have seen a person of excellent calibre, a gentle person, post as a
GUEST saying that they she was too afraid to come out of her shell, and post with their own Identity.
And oddly enough, I have taken a great deal of time in looking back to 2006 and there was a huge amount of GUESTS posting
amid the numerous toxic outbursts. Oddly enough, there was an awful toxic trauma this time last year, when seemingly, some very
grounded people left the board -- not in a huff, but, instead, HURT very hurt indeed it would seem.
Today someone has posted as a GUEST coming back onto the board and said that she left soon after joining in 2004 because of
toxic stuff happening.
I have no idea who PAPS is and have admitted that I thought it was Dr Grossman and apologized for thinking PAPS was Dr Grossman
on Dr Grossman's thread 'a couple reminders' ... on Page 1
However, whoever PAPS may really be, he (or she) did seem to speak with wisdom and commonsense on both threads.
What I wonder is this, maybe, that the real underlying problem is this .........
People not reading a whole thread through (if they are not already aware of the content)
and 'leaping in' with an assumptive post based on what the last couple of postings * say *
which naturally and understandably then creates a ripple of feelings and reactions.
And hurt.
Wonder if the problem may be in not taking the time to carefully read things through ? ( admittedly, we don't always have the time)
But in reality, does simply "changing the subject" and lets not look at this, ever really help ..... anyone ?
It didn't help us much in our Voiceless lives
Upon reflection, maybe, if we could just remember that each post is a part of a whole person in real life, and in real life
when we engage in healthy communication we ask questions all the time.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
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I think it all boils down to what I've said from the start of coming to this board...a newcomer/oldbie must not be surprised when people behave dysfunctionally. Until they heal from some things, they will react from the patterns they learned in childhood or the defenses they set up during trauma and abuse. That's just how it is. If you come here never expecting anyone to get upset or to confront you, you came to the wrong place. All there is to it.
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oops :oops:
got the wrong thread.
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(((Peace))) me too! can't keep my dang threads untangled! :lol:
xo
Hops