Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 08:03:32 AM

Title: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 08:03:32 AM: I'm experiencing a difficult time figuring out how to talk about behaviors I find disruptive and corrosive... in 3D life as well as on the board.

Can you please provide some acceptable responses that challenge behavior we find disruptive....without being more disruptive?

I haven't been able to figure out how to do that yet.... and so far.... it;s a very good reason to allow chaos to flourish and go unchecked in our lives.... bc there's so much disruption in pointing it out or challenging. It's a very tricky business to overtly point out a covert maneuver.
How do we do that? Here and in 3-D?

I must admit, I haven't a clue as to how to address it in any arena.

I can't even understand all the ways I've attempted to do it, all of which haven't been so direct.

All, but the most direct, leave me feeling as though I've been speaking in code, leaving out the most important information without a hope of being understood.

It's a puzzle :shock:
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 08:31:14 AM: lighter,

Although Dr Grossman needs to answer your question directly himself, while you're asking, I'd like to add something (which I feel is relevant, anyway!):

When these recent 'flare-ups' occur on the forum from time to time, the issue is often raised that there are no 'forum rules' set out, when people join, telling them what is permissible, and not permissible, to post (in terms of tone, subject matter, etc.

The response we have had from Dr Grossman in the past has been along the lines of 'well, you have all been made voiceless in the past, in various ways, so I don't want to add to that by imposing any rules at all.'

While that may be a good idea in itself, I feel this is unhelpful, as it gives some people the idea that it is OK to behave any way they like, as no-one has a list of rules to point to, in order to correct their behaviour back to common politeness.

As many on here have had dysfunctional parenting (not everyone, I realise, but a lot), some people may not have been brought up to realise what a 'normal' conversation consists of. So, it may be helpful to set out what that is, just so that people understand. That is not making people voiceless, IMO, it is assisting them to have a voice that can be heard respectfully by everyone who comes to this forum.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 09:24:06 AM: What I would like to voice is that while I may have had N parents ....

I was schooled, trained and reared to treat all people with respect and consideration, which is how I have lived my life.

Please let it be known that I did not learn the art of hurling insults, dishing out verbal abusive and slights, or to be ignorant.

Many people in all walks of life wrongly assume that having a dysfunctional family means that one is without basic manners, respect
and courtesy. In reality, that is not necessarily so.

Thank you, Dr Grossman for this board and I truly appreciate the board in it's entirety.

And as a member of your board .....

> I appreciate it when someone takes care and consideration to read through my post in a thread and hear my full voice.

> I appreciate a thoughtful and honest response

> I appreciate being able to ask questions

> I appreciate it if someone asks me a question for clarity, if needed, prior to responding to my post.

> I appreciate respect and consideration, as it is my real heart and soul in real life that I share from.

> I appreciate it when I am acknowledged for where I stand now in my journey and the validation of me as a person.

As these are the very things that I try my very best to do for others likewise.

Thank you for my voice.

Respectfully,

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 09:27:27 AM: It seems to me that since we are supposed to be adults, Richard should not be in the role of parent(teacher, warden) .
Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 09:31:06 AM: Quote from: Ami on December 15, 2007, 09:27:27 AM

It seems to me that since we are supposed to be adults, Richard should not be in the role of parent(teacher, warden).
Ami

Dear Ami,

May I ask a question.

Are you personally acquainted with Dr Grossman ?

Thinking maybe business or family friend associate.

Respectfully,

Leah

PS Yesterday you told us clearly that you had to report a thread to 'teacher' so now I am naturally confused somewhat.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 09:38:46 AM: The teacher is a safety valve,only(IMO).It is like the police. S/times you need them,but you really DON'T want to be in that position too often. IF you are,your life is not ordered,but disordered. It is your job as an adult to use the police, sparingly,as I see it AND to order your life so it is not neccessary to have the police living in your back yard,as I see it.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 09:47:35 AM: Quote from: Ami on December 15, 2007, 09:38:46 AM

The teacher is a safety valve,only(IMO).It is like the police. S/times you need them,but you really DON'T want to be in that position too often. IF you are,your life is not ordered,but disordered. It is your job as an adult to use the police, sparingly,as I see it AND to order your life so it is not neccessary to have the police living in your back yard,as I see it.

Dear Ami,

Innocent Domestic Violence victims may not agree with your statement.

Respectfully,

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 09:50:02 AM: At SOME point, they need to know HOW to live WITHOUT parental(teacher, warden) intervention,IMO. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 09:51:51 AM: Dear Lighter,

I'm guessing that the preferred way to clear the air is by focusing on "I (feel)" statements instead of on the appalling behaviours themselves?

With love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 09:55:54 AM: hi all,

I recall a while back when Dr. G. shared with us how large a job running this board is for him. Running it and tending it, without active moderation, consumes a very big piece of his time. His volunteer time. Because he's such a mensch, this is an enormous mitzvah he offers the world. I would very very reluctant to ask him to intervene and help people learn how to get along with each other here, except in extreme cases when he must step in briefly to set a limit.

I hope that we can see this board as our own U.N., a microcosm of all the types of people we might encounter in 3-D life.

Doc G is a therapist, but he's not our therapist.

My motive in leaping to say this is not all altruistic...I would miss the board a lot if he decided he could no longer do it. I am sad to think of how he might feel reading what his creation has come to, with the ranting and counter-ranting.

I want to remember what it might be like for him to sit down every day and read all these posts. It's not the same for us, who can dip in and out, be whatever identity we want to be, etc. He's here, every day, holding us in faith that we can help ourselves and help each other.

Let's do that.

Hops
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 09:58:23 AM: Thank you ,Hops. I totally agree. WHEN I had to go to Richard,I did not like it. It was simply the last resort. You are right,IF s/one needs therapy to deal with issues of HOW to get along with people(OR any issues), they should get therapy-----NOT ask Richard(IMHO) Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 10:05:43 AM: Hops,

I agree that running a forum takes time. I think Dr Grossman said before that it takes a third of his working time, or something? Perhaps 15 hours a week, possibly? Perhaps I'm wrong on the hours, but it's part-time, anyway. I agree that he has stated that he started the forum to help voiceless people.

What I'm saying is that with other forums, basic ground rules HELP people to get the most out of the forum. I'm not suggesting that Dr Grossman offers therapy at all. I didn't suggest, either, that Dr Grossman moderates the forum himself, either. I wasn't suggesting active moderation - the moderation he does do already is very, very much 'in the background'. If he chooses to 'look in' when he has the time, that's all that can be expected.

But I do think that ANY forum with no ground rules is asking for trouble, and a forum with members such as there are on here, is asking for bigger trouble, from time to time.

This is all sounding very familiar, unfortunately, and I've only been a member since May this year.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 10:08:38 AM: THEN --WHO is going to have to enforce the rules----Richard. If we are TOO much of babies, we might lose the WHOLE board,as Hops said Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 10:14:01 AM: Quote from: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 09:51:51 AM
Dear Lighter,

I'm guessing that the preferred way to clear the air is by focusing on "I (feel)" statements instead of on the appalling behaviours themselves?

With love,
Carolyn

Dear Carolyn,

Apparently, that has been tried before, and, in addition, I do tend to choose "I feel"

Certainly did use "I feel" statements before I left the board in May and I * saw * others do the same.

Also, Consideration and Respect is so simple and it's free!

I really do appreciate Consideration and Respect, truly, I do.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 10:17:02 AM: I understand, Janet....
I don't feel critical of you at all for asking about rules or wanting some.
I don't even know if it's wise or unwise to be willing to float forward w/o them. Truly. I dunno.

I think I just have a hunch that sorting things out on our own, however clumsily.
will build more strength in folks here than waiting for him to do it.
My hunches can be good intuition or bad posture, though!

Here's a rule:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Know what just occured to me? One of the ways I/we often identify as unhealthy is the place in me where I do not love myself. So maybe even the simplicity of the Golden Rule is much harder than it looks.

If I am consumed with self, and have a lot of self-loathing...as you suggest, how would I know how to behave? Wow. Self-loathing would mean that on some level, I WANT other people to be abusive to me (because that feels deeply familiar) Sounds obvious now (thwacks self on head) but I guess that's what a lot of this rawness and rudeness has been about. Those who are offensive may be literally asking for a fight, because receiving emotional or physical blows feels familial.

I meant to say familial.

Thanks for your usual thoughtfulness, ((((Janet))).

love
Hops
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 10:20:47 AM: Hi,

I wonder... do y'all suppose that Dr. Grossman is really that surprised/shocked/taken aback/put off by the behaviour of people on this board?

Don't you suppose that a man as well-trained and experienced as Dr. Grossman is fully aware of the capacity of human nature for nonsense?

Seriously, I feel like alot of this is blown wayyyy out of proportion when it's simply another mini episode in the day/life of any therapist/parent/leader. Ever see what a pastor has to deal with in a congregation of supposedly God-fearing adults? And they have all sorts of rules to which to point!
LOL ... this ain't nuthin!

With love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 10:23:08 AM: Quote from: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 10:17:02 AM

If I am consumed with self, and have a lot of self-loathing...as you suggest, how would I know how to behave? Wow. Self-loathing would mean that on some level, I WANT other people to be abusive to me (because that feels deeply familiar) Sounds obvious now (thwacks self on head) but I guess that's what a lot of this rawness and rudeness has been about. Those who are offensive may be literally asking for a fight, because receiving emotional or physical blows feels familial.

I meant to say familial.

Hops

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))
(((((((((((Janet)))))))))))))
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 10:31:27 AM: Well folks, it's interesting to say the least, and Dr Grossman, I take my hat off to you with sincer respect and admiration

for your hard work, time and intervention during the last 5 years (I think it's 5 yrs) for you are a very brave courageous person.

With deepest respect,

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 10:31:52 AM: Hops,

I wasn't saying I necessarily *wanted* rules, I was just pointing out that it might be helpful to have some. It's just so unusual to have a forum with no ground rules. I'd like Dr Grossman's reasons explained by him, that's all.

People have left this forum this week, because of the anarchy. So, something needs to be done - I just don't know what, so I was raising that point for discussion. I wasn't suggesting that people post what they want, even when it's abusive, and then 'wait for him to' sort them out.

Perhaps I'm raising this point because when I post on a dressmaking forum, it's a whole lot simpler than this one! People are polite, respectful, interested, and aware. You still get the occasional dummy, but it's a different type!

Carolyn,

No, I don't suppose Dr Grossman is surprised at all - I should think, like a lot of us, he's bored. Very, very bored.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 10:44:11 AM: Got a suggestion: Why not refer to as ' Guidelines ' ???

being Guided sounds so much nicer than

being Ruled.

Why not all work together at jotting up a short simple list of basic respectful and considerate guidelines ?!

Just a thought.

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: mudpuppy on December 15, 2007, 10:46:12 AM: Quote
One thing I've found that helps it to try not to contain the chaos. So it flourishes, who cares?

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.
Trying to contain the chaos of human nature, when done by board members rather than a moderator, works about as well as trying to swat out a fire with a small greasy rag; all you do is fan the flames and burn yourself.

mud
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: CB123 on December 15, 2007, 10:51:55 AM: Interesting thread--I thought at first that it was addressed to, Dr. Grossman and realize now that it is about Dr. Grossman.

Here's my two cents:

1) Just because we are adults, doesnt mean we have a clue how to do what we are trying to do. I think that's the whole point of the forum. If we knew how to have healthy relationships and how to heal from past traumas, we would find this forum boring and irrelevant.

2) The good news is, Dr. Grossman is also an adult and he will probably not be scared off by our petty little skirmishes. I have the sense that he has strong boundaries and if someone asks him for help that he doesnt have time to give, he will probably say so. I don't think he'll shut down the whole board because we are acting as damaged as he already knows we are.

3) A lot of the reason that we are responding to one another on the board as we are, is because we are scared to do it any other way. Somewhere each of us has learned what particular protective wall is the best protection when we are really, really scared and in danger. And, face it, everyone here--in spite of any bravado expressed--is scared at the depth of this conflict. One poster uses sarcasm, one uses humor, one uses condescension, one uses bible verses, and several, I suspect, just run for the hills.

4) We arent really talking to each other anymore--we are talking to our masks. Trust me--N's don't have a corner on that tactic. We all use it. And there is very little real communication going on anymore.

5) I don't think that Dr. Grossman can help us with any of this. He can lock threads, delete threads, slap hands. Those remedies will simply teach to us to fine-tune our masks (if sarcasm locks a thread, we will learn to not use sarcasm as a mask--but we won't take off the mask). Basically the question that's being asked, and the solution that's being proposed, is: what kind of mask is acceptable.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it.

CB
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 10:53:27 AM: Quote
People have left this forum this week, because of the anarchy. So, something needs to be done - I just don't know what, so I was raising that point for discussion. I wasn't suggesting that people post what they want, even when it's abusive, and then 'wait for him to' sort them out.

Well, one PM that I received this week was saddening, a dear precious gentle lady, too afraid to come onto the board, who has been hovering for many many months at the sideline.

Wisely, in confidence, which is assured.

It's only us MEMBERS that prevented the lady from joining us.

Accountability and Responsibility

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: mudpuppy on December 15, 2007, 11:02:31 AM: Not only do the chaos and the tit for tat threads scare off newbies, they cause people who do post about real problems to be ignored or barely heard.
Voicelessness is just as much about not being heard when we do speak, maybe more so, than not speaking at all.
Its pretty hard to hear someone in trouble whimpering quietly when all we hear are the squeals and garbage cans getting knocked over by the alley cats outside our window.

mud
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 11:06:23 AM: Quote from: mudpuppy on December 15, 2007, 11:02:31 AM

Not only do the chaos and the tit for tat threads scare off newbies, they cause people who do post about real problems to be ignored or barely heard.

Voicelessness is just as much about not being heard when we do speak, maybe more so, than not speaking at all.

Its pretty hard to hear someone in trouble whimpering quietly when all we hear are the squeals and garbage cans getting knocked over by the alley cats outside our window.

mud

Dear Mud,

So very true, sadly.

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 11:18:22 AM: It's not the alley cats dumping the trash and making a ruckus that worry me.. it's the pedigreed puddytat who's shredding the carpet behind the divan!

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 11:22:33 AM: Bean,

I'm not 'imagining' people leaving - they told me before they left. Others told me they are afraid to post any more. Some told me they haven't posted for ages, as the tone of the forum has deteriorated so much. It was what I was referring to in the 16-page long thread the other day, when I said I'd had 'bucketloads of support' - remember that? That's when they said it, mainly, and in the few days since.

Obviously, it's private. Doesn't mean I'm making it up by not telling you who it was, though. I'm respecting their privacy, whilst telling the truth.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 11:28:40 AM: Quote from: bean on December 15, 2007, 11:16:04 AM
I don't know...

I think I can imagine lots of people leaving because of chaos. But I can also imagine people staying because of it. Look at how all of us were drawn to it. (!)

Just trying to stretch those imaginations a little. There's other (more positive) ways to look at things. The gloom and doom may not serve us, that's all.

sometimes there are hidden gifts, that's all

bean

Another way to look at it is ...... " how can we make things a little more pleasant for ourselves, as members, so that we enjoy ...... " ?

Things don't have to stay the same, year in, year out .... do they ??

What about 2008 ??

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 11:46:53 AM: Quote from: bean on December 15, 2007, 10:14:12 AM
hey lighter,

sorry you seem to be having trouble expressing yourself. One thing I've found that helps it to try not to contain the chaos. So it flourishes, who cares?

Again, sorry you are troubled and feeling grief over this.

bean

Bean:

I didn't spend my formative years dealing with chaos

and chronic scapegoating

and chronic gaslighting.

I'm so uncomfortable with it.... I truly gag through the days it's presenting itself.... I swallow vomit and that's uncomfortable for me.

I feel pregnant again and I'd like to say that going NC's possible, but it's not. A year of vomiting in my mouth :shock:

I didn't develop coping strategies apparently.... to handle this type of situation.... at least no once I KNOW what it is.

Confusion worked for a while.... but you can only be confused for so long before things become pretty clear.

I don't see alternatives, that don't make me vomit, besides NC.

Empathic listening and hearing seems to be a complete bust when addressing the chronic gaslighters so..... what's in between?

Hmmm...... how would Sheriff Andy Taylor handle the situation?

Must give that one some thought.

I fear he'd use little humorouse stories, that make us laugh :shock:
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Lupita on December 15, 2007, 11:49:18 AM: Do you think it would be a good idea that when somebody tells us, please, do not tell me that, that we just do not tell that to that person?
But, many times somebody says that please, do not tell me that, the other person gets mad and says that you shouls hear what you do not want to hear or you should do this or do the other, or that everybody told you what to do and you do not do it.....etc.
In my case when somebody irritates me I do not fo into her threads. Also, when somebody triggers me on my own thread I erase it. Or withdrow for some days, but I have never answered to people who trioggered me. Then the person who least bothers me ask me if she was the one, and the one that really bothers me never asks me. Also, a member gets offended by the attention that other recieves, with the only fact that do not pay attention to that thread you are saying something. If a thread does not find people interested, the person will not post about that very frequently. If a thread gets constant attention, the attention it self is giving the thread what the thread is looking for.

As you can see, I have never interacted in any conflict. This is something that friends might consider the possibility to think about.

If somebody gets offended, please forgive me, that is not my intention. And please, do not ask me who ffended me. I will never tell.

For the first time since I came to the forum I am displacing an idea for the general people here. Usually I only go to my own thing. Please do not get offended by me. That is the last thing I want to do here.

God bless you all.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: tayana on December 15, 2007, 11:51:51 AM: I considered making this post part of a new thread, but I decided to go ahead and reply here. I am considering leaving the forum. I just scrolled through the first two pages of posts. There are fourteen threads dedicated to the ongoing sniping, jabbing, back-biting, and general overtone of nastiness that has infused the board of late. Posts from those folks asking for advice and comfort are getting pushed off the main page and forgotten. At this point, I'm tempted to return to a different board that I still post and read from time to time. I'm not finding much comfort here. The only reason I haven't left yet is that I have a potentially stressful situation coming up in the next week, and I may need the board's support.

I have cultivated friendships here, and online or no, they are friendships. Despite what another poster said, I do believe friendships can be made online. I met my best friend through an online writer's forum. We emailed back and forth to one another for three years before meeting in person. I've told her absolutely everything, just like she's told me absolutely everything. I certainly think good, healthy friendships can come from an online situation, if we open ourselves to them.

It seems like we can't even have a discussion on any topic without it dissolving into general nastiness. Since the misunderstanding a few months ago when I took a hiatus from the board, I have been very careful about how I word my posts. Maybe some of the misunderstanding of late are simply due to poorly worded posts, however, I can't deny that in the last few days, I have felt attacked, maligned, and I have been very offended by some of the posts on the board.

It is fine to provide healthy, constructive criticism. No matter what anyone says, we need feedback, both positive and negative to help us grow and mature. There is an art to doing it. I will provide some links on how to give positive criticism. As a writer, I've participated in a number of critique groups, and I've certainly had some less than tactful editors. Some of them are perfectly ruthless, in fact. I've developed a fairly thick skin, and I can let most comments roll off.

LInks to constructive criticism sites:

http://www.instigatorblog.com/5-steps-to-providing-good-constructive-criticism/2006/10/03/ (http://www.instigatorblog.com/5-steps-to-providing-good-constructive-criticism/2006/10/03/)
http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/emotional_wellbeing/friends/constructive-criticism.html (http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/emotional_wellbeing/friends/constructive-criticism.html)
http://www.peaceandhealing.com/criticism/constructive.asp (http://www.peaceandhealing.com/criticism/constructive.asp)

I don't see much constructive criticism. In fact some posters can't even post now without their comments being construed as an attack on various members of the board. It seems as though folks want to see hidden agendas behind every comment, and they simply can't take them at face value.

I came to this board seeing support because my family is horribly dysfunctional. To use my T's terms, "you don't have a very healthy family do you?" I came here because my family is not support of me, my son, or my life. It doesn't matter what sort of success I find, it's not good enough for my family. The only member of my family I still talk to is my brother, and even he keeps his distance because he doesn't want to get involved. So, I have no support outside of the friends I've made. The only person I have to rely on is me. The board changed that, at least here, I could get advise from other very wise folks in similar situations. It's been a lifesaver, truly. I couldn't have come as far as I have without the support of the folks here on the board. So thank you for that. I would truly hate to see this board change, as it seems to be, from a safe place to work through issues, to a place where we only find more abuse.

I don't know about others here, but I think I've suffered enough abuse for a lifetime. I'm ready to live.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 11:52:12 AM: Quote from: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 10:31:52 AM
Hops,

I wasn't saying I necessarily *wanted* rules, I was just pointing out that it might be helpful to have some. It's just so unusual to have a forum with no ground rules. I'd like Dr Grossman's reasons explained by him, that's all.

Janet

I wasn't suggesting rules.... I was looking for some tools that have somehow evaded my discovery so far :?

I might see some very direct way of empathically saying something, that gets the point accross and doesn't leave me feeling like I just chopped off the meat of a subject.... then be able to let the THING go, KWIM?

If the goal is to help other's and feel better.... and trying to help is a lose lose situation (sad but there it is) then there's a next appropriate step?

I can't even say that I don't think I took it and it failed.... if it even exists.... ::shaking head:: Not sure but will give it more thought while going through walking meditation of honoring household Gods. ::nod::
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 11:54:41 AM: Hi Lupita,
I really appreciate those thoughts.
I find them very helpful and wise.

Thank you.

I need to learn to skip posts too, or sort of squint-skim, to pass by the screechy and get to the many wise deep posters whoses voices teach me the strong things, the good things. And that's okay. (Didn't I just sagely advise newbies it's okay? Fer Pete's sake, Self.)

love,
Hops
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 11:59:48 AM: Quote
Tayana posted .....

So thank you for that. I would truly hate to see this board change, as it seems to be,

from a safe place to work through issues, to a place where we only find more abuse.

I don't know about others here, but I think I've suffered enough abuse for a lifetime. I'm ready to live.

Hear Hear Tayana

Life is too short and precious to waste!

We have a life to live!

Question: What about 2008 ??

It really could be so different.

Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:00:33 PM: Quote from: CB123 on December 15, 2007, 10:51:55 AM
Interesting thread--I thought at first that it was addressed to, Dr. Grossman and realize now that it is about Dr. Grossman.

Here's my two cents:

5) I don't think that Dr. Grossman can help us with any of this. He can lock threads, delete threads, slap hands. Those remedies will simply teach to us to fine-tune our masks (if sarcasm locks a thread, we will learn to not use sarcasm as a mask--but we won't take off the mask). Basically the question that's being asked, and the solution that's being proposed, is: what kind of mask is acceptable.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it.

CB

I guess you could look at it that way but.... masks make me throw up :shock:

Isn't there some way to talk about the elephant in the room..... without being labled a trouble making nut job by society, the courts, the police, our families and this board? The only people I can really talk to are psychiatrists, physchologists and a few people who've been through tougher times than me.

I have no idea why this is so hard for me.... I usually feel like I can fix something but..... alas.... I'm searching very hard and coming up frustrated with a dodgey stomach.

I realize I can't literally fix this or anything really.... and perhaps that's part of my journey.

Until then..... I guess I'll just get ready for another journey into size ONE. Thank goodness I already have clothes in size sick scarecrow.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 12:02:50 PM: lighter,

"I don't see alternatives, that don't make me vomit, besides NC."

This sounds like the best idea, to me. That doesn't mean anyone should feel they have to leave the forum to achieve it, just NC anyone who makes them sick. :)

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Lupita on December 15, 2007, 12:09:18 PM: Thank you Hops. I was so afraid that somebody would get offended. But you are always nice. Thank you.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:14:03 PM: Quote from: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 12:02:50 PM
lighter,

"I don't see alternatives, that don't make me vomit, besides NC."

This sounds like the best idea, to me. That doesn't mean anyone should feel they have to leave the forum to achieve it, just NC anyone who makes them sick. :)

Janet

I know I've said this before.... I don't want to police the playground but.... it's really hard for me to pretend I don't see someone off whispering and courting newbies..... grooming them for reasons I can't even fathom.... then sit back and ignore it when the same old problems come around again.... always the same but with new players thrown into the mix.

I'll have to give it some more thought..... NC may very well be the ONLY way.

What do you do when you can't go NC and you're struggling?

I heard you say there isn't any alternative..... ::shaking head::: If that's so.... then women won't ever be taken seriously in the legal system and we'll always be dismissed out of hand, just bc, and there's no alternative for society.... as a whole.

I guess what I'm saying is..... the collective WE, aren't capable of learning from mistakes?

Enlightenment dies along with the mystical proper apology?
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 12:22:43 PM: Lighter, Since Dr G has cited you for abuse on TWO occassions,you MIGHT be wise to heed it. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 12:24:10 PM: Quote from: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:00:33 PM
I have no idea why this is so hard for me.... I usually feel like I can fix something but..... alas.... I'm searching very hard and coming up frustrated with a dodgey stomach.

I realize I can't literally fix this or anything really.... and perhaps that's part of my journey.

Dear Lighter,

I believe that what you've expressed here is indeed the crux of the matter.
At least, that's how it was for me... such a startling revelation that it is NOT my job/duty/responsibility/mission in life to "fix" anything or anyone but myself... and that, only by God's grace!

With love to you,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: teartracks on December 15, 2007, 12:28:20 PM: Hi everyone,

I think there is a lot to be said for knowing when to shut up.

I think there is a lot to be said for being satisfiable in discussions, even if it is to hit your neutral button and just let it be. Turn your attention to something else. Avoid power struggles.

I think there is a lot to be said for not having to have the last word.

I think there is a lot to be said for recognizing when you're not helping the other person.

I think there is a lot to be said for recognizing that we're not here to fix others but to fix ourselves.

Most people don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care.

I don't think Dr. G will succumb to a power struggle over how to run the board. No checkmates here!

tt
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:30:04 PM: Yes Hope.... I hear you.

I see your point. Duly noted.

I just can't get past the part where I ignore chronic messing with my serenity.... when I have a perfectly capable voice and I'm not afraid to use it any longer :shock:

I lost it for about 2 years.... then got it back.

Then I lost it again for about 6 years..... and now it's back.

How do I manage to not use my voice.... when I'm hear to learn how to use my voice and not stifle, pretend and ignore things that affect me?
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: tayana on December 15, 2007, 12:31:54 PM: Ami, Lighter started this thread to help her understand how to deal with the situation going on the board. I do not see a thing she's posted here as abusive. Stop reading into this. This is a very worthwhile discussion, and one that needs to be had since she's trying to figure out how to post on the board without inciting flames. Lighter, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Lighter, maybe the way to do NC here on the board is just simply not to post even if the thread is something you'd really like to reply to. I've seen a couple of those lately. We should be learning from mistakes, really we should. I think the only way to save ourselves when NC isn't an option is to set very strong boundaries and refuse to allow them to be violated.

Bean, I think you are exactly right. I'm certain as some people find recovery, they no longer need the board. Even though I think I've made great progress, I've stuck around because I like passing on things I've learned to others.

TT, you made some great points.

Lighter, is it possible that having a voice also means learning when to use it? Is it possible we can use our voices too much?
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 12:40:51 PM: Lighter,

I hear you, too, when you say,

I just can't get past the part where I ignore chronic messing with my serenity.... when I have a perfectly capable voice and I'm not afraid to use it any longer

But that's not true... you can get past it, you just have not yet gotten past it.

Your voice has been heard here, loudly and clearly.
However, there is a difference between knowing that you've made a connection with other voices and demanding that your voice rule supreme, you know?
Maybe it's a platitude, but I know that I must use extreme caution when judging others, for this very reason... to judge righteously, lest I become guilty of the same activities/behaviour which I denounce on the part of others.

Until you choose to get past this - a decision of will and not a feeling - you are allowing someone else to control your serenity.
It really is all your choice.

You're not the only one here with discernment, you know?
Others see... and those who don't (yet) have the capacity to see... all in their good time.

Really, when you're beating a dead horse, the wise thing to do is dismount!
Let natural consequences take their effective course... it is a law of the universe that all folks WILL reap what they sow.

With love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:41:33 PM: Sure tay... I thinkwe all know it's possible to use our voices too much, lol.

It's also possible to outgrow the board... someone said they become impatient when they've grown beyond the board and they realize it's time to step back.

I'm still left with the question.... "how to deal with chronic gaslighting I can't go NC with?"

I'm still feeling that speaking honestly, keeping one's voice moderate, not name calling, sticking to the subject and not jumping around to others is failing me, lol?

It rarely fails unless there's something covert and chronic going on...... then I hit a wall and I'm talking about in every direction.

It's not just the board.

If I had 10K for every time someone asked me what I did to recieve such and such treatment, or didn't I know what I was getting into when I blah blah blahed......

I can speak plainly and not be understood.

Not sure why that is or if society's every going to be ready to look at the undercurrent.... the problem and not just the symptoms as the cause.

I agree.... dealing with the N's and the BPD and the Sociopaths isn't much fun, choose any Cluster B disorder.

Blaming and dismissing the people impacted by it's gotta be easier.... esp when it's covert and under the wire.

Just discussing it's crazy making, KWIM? Downright impossible so far.

I might have to embrace serenity and lose the desire for understanding..... to use my voice in situations I may not go NC.

Until then.... I'll keep kicking the subject around and seeing what comes up.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 12:43:50 PM: Lighter,
I respect you for the way you responded to Doc G's admonitions.
You're mouthy and not always respectful but I can see you taking stuff in.

I wonder if you have ever confused with being respectful with being silenced.
I have.

In this thread I think you're open, genuinely wanting to learn, nondefensive...and not dismissive.
You're still here. You accepted Doc G's warning and show curiosity about how to approach things effectively.

I knew what he meant about provocation. I think that might be a key to look at, in yourself. Has been in me at times.
Maybe you're thinking to yourself, I want to expose/bring to the light/unmask, etc., stuff that really makes me angry and victimizes other people? But then you go a step too far because your anger puts a destructive edge on it? There's kind of a recklessness about it? (Don't let me presume to understand if I'm not...correct away, please.)

I've done that in my life. I think sometimes it's been subtler, I'm neither as brave nor as...eggsy...as you.
But I have had the impulse at times to haul something out of the water and let it flap on the ice.

For me, in my life, those moments have been associated with a boundary problem. The Nthing
I mentioned on another thread a while back. Reckoning with my intrusiveness. And how shamed I felt.
And how I got past that, mostly.

It still stirs a little, sometimes.

I am wandering from your post but thank you, for showing me a new way to respond to criticism.
I think you might be showing me the difference between being chastened and being shamed.

Most of us could survive fair chastening now and then. Maybe sometimes we lose the distinction?

love
Hops
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 12:44:09 PM: I think that being "whole" is simply having your OWN voice. We have to know how to own our OWN behavior ,only.
If s/one offends us, we need to know HOW to deal with that in a healthy way. Nowhere in there is there a part about changing s/one else.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 12:45:15 PM: Quote from: teartracks on December 15, 2007, 12:28:20 PM

I think there is a lot to be said for being satisfiable in discussions, even if it is to hit your neutral button and just let it be. Turn your attention to something else. Avoid power struggles.

Teartracks,

I appreciate all of your post and especially the above... Yes!!

Oh, to be satisfiable! Goes right along with having a teachable spirit. Amen!

With love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:47:55 PM: Ummmm, I realize my last post was almost impossible to make sense of... must run: )
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 12:49:28 PM: Ummmmm.... thanks Hops, lol...

I think :shock:
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: tayana on December 15, 2007, 12:51:16 PM: Hops, that was a great post. I think I need to read it a few times. There's lots to learn there.

Lighter, if it helps. I have a tendency to want to avoid conflict, so when the threads start that really upset me, I tend to go quiet and just not post. I keep up with the thread until I can think of something to say that's helpful, but I don't rush in full tilt. I have to take some time to process everything. Maybe that would help, just stepping back for a little bit, thinking about what's been said and process before saying anything at all. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 12:58:37 PM: And if I'm condescending, SMACK me! (I think I am sometimes. I dont want that tone. Arrgggghhh. Sorry.)

I just see you as a balance of bold and reckless.

I am awed and inspired by the bold, and sometimes think the reckless can go hostile.

But I don't want to throw out the baby (Lighter's bold) because of the hostile (Lighter's reckless).

Overall I really do get what you get, see what you see, and totally understand why you just bellow about it sometimes. Probably it's worked best when you just call it as you see it, but without sarcasm or humor or "provoking."

[Save those for the threads when you're so funny I feel I can face another day! (((((Lighter)))))]

Because when you talk straightfowardly about how it feels to watch the subtle covert grooming and rallying stuff, I am very there.

Maybe it's best to assume as --I think TT-- said, that people here are generally pretty astute and probably many many are seeing the same ugly stuff and although they're not commenting, it's maybe okay that you not be the Night WatchLighter.

You're walking by calling, All is NOT Well, and maybe worrying that the newbies or vulnerables aren't seeing what's in the shadows? Or might be so love hungry that they respond like peeled oysters to the wrong people? And might be sucked in by high-volume gushposters before they see toxicity or Nness?

(Pot! Kettle! Thwack-BANG-crashclatter...sorry, just having a little scuffle in my kitchen...with mysel...OW! Toe!)

::limping away, hushing up for a change::

love to you,
Hops
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 01:07:43 PM: Quote from: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 12:58:37 PM
And if I'm condescending, SMACK me! (I think I am sometimes. I dont want that tone. Arrgggghhh. Sorry.)

I just see you as a balance of bold and reckless.

I am awed and inspired by the bold, and sometimes think the reckless can go hostile.

But I don't want to throw out the baby (Lighter's bold) because of the hostile (Lighter's reckless).

Overall I really do get what you get, see what you see, and totally understand why you just bellow about it sometimes. Probably it's worked best when you just call it as you see it, but without sarcasm or humor or "provoking."

[Save those for the threads when you're so funny I feel I can face another day! (((((Lighter)))))]

Because when you talk straightfowardly about how it feels to watch the subtle covert grooming and rallying stuff, I am very there.

Maybe it's best to assume as --I think TT-- said, that people here are generally pretty astute and probably many many are seeing the same ugly stuff and although they're not commenting, it's maybe okay that you not be the Night WatchLighter.

You're walking by calling, All is NOT Well, and maybe worrying that the newbies or vulnerables aren't seeing what's in the shadows? Or might be so love hungry that they respond like peeled oysters to the wrong people? And might be sucked in by high-volume gushposters before they see toxicity or Nness?

(Pot! Kettle! Thwack-BANG-crashclatter...sorry, just having a little scuffle in my kitchen...with mysel...OW! Toe!)

::limping away, hushing up for a change::

love to you,
Hops

Hops... amazing. I'm with you on all of this and through it, every step of the way, complete with bruises from that kitchen scuffle.

Your other post here, as well... smack dab on the spot.

Much love to you and grateful hugs for your sight and clear expression of that view!

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Lupita on December 15, 2007, 01:20:17 PM: Dear, very dear Lighter, It is easy for me to see how you feel. I could tell you what to do. I cannot solve my own problems but when I see others I think I see it correctly. Of course I mgith be wrong.

I think you are looking for affirmation. You are looking fro validation. But since here we are all victims of Nism, we did not receive it so we do not know how to give it.

So, you are getting frustrated because you are not receiving the so much needed validation.

The only thing i can tell you is that your posts have been very helpful to me. Many times I come just looking for your responses. Even if I tell you that I do not have the energy to look for another job, maybe I need somebody to show me like a kindergarde child. But I do appreciate your posts and there was a time when I thought you had a degree in psychology because you were so accurate in your analysis.

I guess if you can help one person, it is worth it to stay and I really want you to stay and keep helping me even if I fight with you, it would be like the fights with my son, I fight with my son and I never sotp loving him.

So, the only thing I can tell you, please do not leave here because of another person. Do not do what I do. I need you.

God bless you.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 15, 2007, 01:21:49 PM: Bean :)

You are so cool... just had to say, thank you for being yourself!

With great appreciation and love,

Carolyn

P.S.

Dear Lupita, I just saw your post to Lighter and want to tell you that your genuine sweetness touches my heart so very deeply... and I agree. Lighter, I feel the same... through any disagreement or controversy, I value you as a person and hope that you will continue to share yourself with us here.

Much love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 01:33:23 PM: I am saying this for myself only. I made a vow after reading the Milgrim experiment that I would NOT be one of the MAJORITY that shocked the man to death.
If I were in Nazi Germany,I would have wanted to have been one of the FEW that stood up. No one knows what they would actually do in these cases. What about Kitty Genovese? slavery? lynchings?
Very few people HAVE their voice strong enough to stand ALONE. That is a part of my voice that I MUST reclaim.It is crucial to me.
A self actualized voice,by definition, CAN stand alone. I am NOT saying that I am there yet. However,holding my own voice despite tremendous pressure is certainly a character building exercise. My Grandmother was a person of character. When it is all said and done--you ARE your character.
I must thank you for showing me that I am made of much stronger stuff than I ever realized.. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 02:05:54 PM: ::sigh:: I wasn't threatening to scuttle off the board unless someone peeped up and asked me to stay, lol.

I wasn't going to bring up Nazi's or Milligan experiements or shark attacks either.

I was trying to use a rational voice to dissect a problem I;ve been dealing with since before I arrived on this board..... years before I arrived.

That I encounter it here is ironic, dont'cha think?

That I'm faced with the problem of learning new skills, and adopting fresher coping strategies, goes without saying.

But learning to speak plainly, in the right way, for the rigth reason, at the right time.... there's a science to that.

If young doctors are charged with administering treatments.... and the patient screams and increases the level of his struggles..... do the doctors let him go without treatment? Esp if he's healthy enough without?

I'd say.... yes. Whether he was in pain or just screaming for attention. He goes free and the doctor's aren't responsible for policing his medication or administering it against his wishes...that's a given

But..... if he leaves the hospital and goes out into the world..... if he goes into other hospitals and becomes a cook, say, on a maternity ward where hundreds of vulnerable people will become infected.... what then?

I'll quote a paragraph from an article on Typhoid Mary, as follows....

"Mary Mallon seemed a healthy woman when a health inspector knocked on her door in 1907, yet she was the cause of several typhoid outbreaks. Since Mary was the first "healthy carrier" of typhoid fever in the United States, she did not understand how someone not sick could spread disease -- so she tried to fight back."

She didn't intend to hurt anyone.... she was just trying to do what she needed to do in order to survive, no doubt.

Even though she was told her contact in the food service industry would harm people..... she didn't believe it.

She didn't accept it.

She fought it tooth and nail and refused to be a party to that truth..... refused.

I'm not saying I'm a doc... or that I have any answers.... I'm just sayin..... it's a puzzle.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: CB123 on December 15, 2007, 02:12:49 PM: The thing to "fix" in each of ourselves is the idea that we must control anything going on on the board. That people must do and say things a different way. That the board should be held to a higher standard than "real life." The board is real life. The thing to Fix is our judgment. Not our collective judgment, but the judgment in each of our head's (if it exists) that things happening now should be a different way. They are what they are. I'm convinced this is the best (positive) way to look at it.

Wow, Bean. This may be the single, most lucid comment that I've read on the conflict here.

If there is mantra I live by any more, it is: Things Are the Way They Are.

I know, Lighter. I hate masks, too. I hate it when people are wearing obvious masks and they won't take them off. I hate it when I fall in love with someone's mask. I hate when I have been as genuine as I know how to be, and then discover that I have my own mask.

But things are the way they are. I think one unhealthy thing that I do, is try to word and re-word what I am trying to say to get someone to take off their mask and be real with me. I did this over and over in my marriage. My motive may be good--but at the heart of it, I'm still saying that I won't be okay until I accomplish my goal in someone else's life.

What I have to do when I get in these kinds of situations, now, is to ask myself: what do I want? If I want the free interchange of ideas--can that happen in this situation? Maybe it can't happen with everyone here. Can it happen with anyone? If there is no possibility at all of free interchange, can I be satisfied with getting something else out of the situation?

Here's an example of a conversation I've had with myself over a particular situation: several times in recent months someone has posted about something they are thinking and made a point of saying that they only want responses that affirm their thinking. I've had to stop and work that through in my head. To me, that makes even the positive responses ungenuine because there is no way of knowing whether those positive responses came from the heart, or if they came from a very short pool of acceptable responses.

I had to work through how I wanted to honor someone's else's voice and remain genuine myself. I had to decide to not respond at all to those posts. They became more like an online journal for the person writing them. We all have had to hammer out our own recovery in our own way. I can't have genuine interaction with that sort of restriction, but that might be the only thing the poster can handle at this point.

So, yeah, even here there are masks, but they may have to be in place because it's not safe to do it any other way.

Love
CB
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: finding peace on December 15, 2007, 02:13:23 PM: As we are all walking wounded, I have found that while it is important to stand up for yourself

It is also extremely important we are careful to watch where we stand, so as not to step on the feet of others and cause them pain.

There are a lot of people learning to stand for themselves here, including me.

There will be times, as we are learning to stand tall for ourselves that we will step on other’s feet. When this happens, it is very important to step back and realize that they are learning to stand tall for themselves as well. It is also important that we acknowledge the pain we have caused – not by saying I didn’t mean it that way, you are not seeing it right, but by saying I am sorry. I did not mean to hurt your toes.

I also believe, that we be careful that in standing tall for ourselves, we don't use others as props to help us stand, as that defeats the purpose. And, if you inadvertently step on someone’s toes, the person who is propping you up, is also likely to get hurt as everyone falls down.

Much love to you all,
Peace
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: finding peace on December 15, 2007, 02:26:03 PM: Hi Lupita – very wise words there – no offense taken here.

Tay – I hope you don’t leave the board. You have a great voice and I hear you loud and clear.

So much wisdom in this thread – I am awed, it is a beautiful, amazing thing. I think if newbies were scared off – I am hoping that this thread will show them the wisdom that is waiting with open arms here. Awed.

***********************

Hi Lighter,

I hear and see the dilemma.

It reminds me of the hardware store story, but with a little twist (gonna use a jewelry store cause unlike my husband I am rather more fond of jewelry):

I can go into the jewelry store, again and again, and ask for a ruby ring only to be told that they don’t carry it - even though I know it is there.

I can try and get their attention, any way I can - banging on the counter, throwing things, talking sweetly, walking on eggshells, but in the end, can I force the jewelry store to sell me a ruby ring? Not unless they are willing.

Am I worried about others going into the jewelry store only to be rejected too? Yep.

Can I stand in front of the store and warn people that as much as they might try, they will not be sold a ruby ring even though it is there in plain daylight? Yes, but 10 to 1, human nature being what it is, they will go in anyway.

Can I be there waiting outside to help pick the person up when they have been thrown out of the store? You bet.

Can I sit, sadly, on the sidelines knowing in my heart of hearts it is not the jewelry store’s fault for not selling me a ring because if they could do better they would? You bet (but with sadness).

Can I hope and pray that the jewelry store will see and find that ring (for themselves) that I know is there? Yes.

Can I be there for the jewelry store in celebration, gladness, happiness, and joy if/when they find it. Absolutely. Because I was once a jewelry store too, maybe not in the same way, but I definitely had some lost gems in my stock room (still searching for more).

I understand the frustration. I do. But, sometimes, we can't fix it, and have to let go of the outcome (learned that here).

This place reminds me of the ocean. Sometimes all is calm and serene. Sometimes it is a hurricane at sea. Swimming in this particular ocean, I have gained strength during both the calm times and the hurricanes. There is learning here - in all weather.

Much love,
Peace
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 15, 2007, 02:31:04 PM: Quote from: Ami on December 15, 2007, 01:33:23 PM
I am saying this for myself only. I made a vow after reading the Milgrim experiment that I would NOT be one of the MAJORITY that shocked the man to death.
If I were in Nazi Germany,I would have wanted to have been one of the FEW that stood up. No one knows what they would actually do in these cases. What about Kitty Genovese? slavery? lynchings?
Ami

I'd like to voice a complaint about being referred to as a Nazi and a Murderer.... a Shark.... as in mindless killing machine.

I don't think that's fair and I think that type of hysteria is partly responsible for the escalation in conflict, though it's been accepted here like it's appropriate and rational by everybody but Hops, I think.

I agree with Ami.... I just don't agree with who's getting shocked and who's the angry mob.

Why is it acceptable to label people those things and not OK to say something, that I actually consider quite on target, however unsavory or wickedly scripted?

I take responsibility for having been wicked. ::holding up hands::

I apologize and admit that I was frustrated and unable to do better at the time, or I would have.

I'd like to move beyond the frustration and talk about solutions.

Dr. G... just bc I don't fall over and yelp loudly..... that doesn't mean those references aren't innapropriate.

I think they very much are and this is one of many recent references only.

I honestly don't think I'm a Murdering Nazi Shark or that this board is filled with a mob that moves with that mind.

::shaking head:: Just so wrong.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: CB123 on December 15, 2007, 02:44:03 PM: I don't think that's fair and I think that type of hysteria is partly responsible for the escalation in conflict, though it's been accepted here like it's appropriate and rational by everybody but Hops, I think.

Lighter, I dont accept that it's appropriate and rational. It's not.

But it is revealing and I am hoping by staying out of the conflict, those kind of statements stand in bold relief and do not get lost in my inadequate response. I guess it goes back to what I said earlier: I don't really think I can say enough to convince someone otherwise if they really think that is an appropriate comment.

I'm so sorry, Lighter. I know that hurt.

CB
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 15, 2007, 02:45:06 PM: Quote from: finding peace on December 15, 2007, 02:13:23 PM
Hi Ami,

I think I see much more clearly now. The following is said with peaceful intent.

I agree it is very important to stand for yourself. Very important.

The following is my opinion only:

I believe, that in standing tall for ourselves, it is extremely important we are careful to watch were we stand, so as not to step on the feet of others and cause them pain.

There are a lot of people learning to stand for themselves here, including me.

There will be times, as we are learning to stand tall for ourselves that we will step on other’s feet. When this happens, it is very important to step back and realize that they are learning to stand tall for themselves as well. It is also important that we acknowledge the pain we have caused – not by saying I didn’t mean it that way, you are not seeing it right, but by saying I am sorry. I did not mean to hurt your toes.

I also believe, that we be careful that in standing tall for ourselves, we don't use others as props to help us stand, as that defeats the purpose. And, if you inadvertently step on someone’s toes, the person who is propping you up, is also likely to get hurt as everyone falls down.

Much love to you,
Peace

Peace, That was a very clear post, with a very sensible message - thank you.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 15, 2007, 02:51:24 PM: Dear Ami,

It is possible to stand up today against slavery, which is still happening worldwide, and many many other injustices, in all countries around the globe, including the ones in which we live.

Effective standing up is all about standing up with a voice of dignity and poise, integrity and honor, to a captive audience.

Love, Leah

PS Yes, Peace, a most sensible message indeed, thank you, truly appreciated.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 15, 2007, 04:01:50 PM: ((((((((((((((Teartracks))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Hopalong on December 15, 2007, 04:19:51 PM: Doc G has said that he will shut down any thread that restarts the previous conflict.

I think most of us've been trying on this thread to discuss better communication, possible solutions, in the abstract. So we can make the board a better experience going forward.

So, in fact, it's not all about one person or even one past conflict.

Going backward to reignite the original specific conflict would be gaslighting, and a waste of everyone's time and trust, imo.

Hops
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: gratitude28 on December 15, 2007, 06:31:51 PM: tt,
You put it in a nutshell. We have conflict around us all the time. We can choose whether or not to engage. I choose not to :)
Love, Beth
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: changing on December 15, 2007, 08:17:43 PM: It is a good policy to avoid conflict whenever possible. However, I also make it my policy to absent myself from groups where elites treat non-elites unfairly through their connection with the power structure. If Jews , blacks, women or others are excluded by virtue of their difference, I won't join in and will vehemtly voice my objection, and see if the rule of law can be brought to bear on the situation. If the poor or someone unconnected to those in charge get a raw deal in a certain system or group due to the machinations of an unprincipled person who is intimate with the controlling power, I may be moved to enter the fray, and then leave, doing whatever I can to expose the evil there. This a moral imperative for me.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on December 15, 2007, 09:02:41 PM: Hi Lighter,

First of all, thanks for stepping back from the fray and engaging in self reflection and self questioning. That takes a lot of courage—particularly doing it in public. I hope you (and everyone) will forgive me if I speak generally.

I think what we often see on the board are mini-battles for the survival of the self. (The triggers have varied over the years) Most on this board have the experience of losing such battles repeatedly to narcissistic parents, spouses, or other family members. In fact we have lost so many battles that we can’t stand to lose another one--which makes it near impossible to walk away.

But some people can, and ultimately do walk away. Genetics/biology play a role, but these people typically have found someone who is able to enter the attachment part of the brain and re-wire so that the self doesn’t feel perpetually threatened. Sometimes this person is a teacher, a clergy member, a grandparent, and aunt or uncle, but most often in adulthood the re-wiring is done by an excellent therapist. In therapy it’s done not through insight, nor through advice, nor through an exploration of the unconscious (although all of these may happen in excellent therapy), rather, it’s done through a very special relationship with a therapist over a considerable period of time.

Someone has to be with us internally as we negotiate the world—otherwise the self is under constant attack, and much of life is spent trying to bolster or defend it.

I wish there were some easier solution. But I don’t know of any.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Richard
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 09:26:18 AM: As Dr G said:
Quote
But some people can, and ultimately do walk away. Genetics/biology play a role, but these people typically have found someone who is able to enter the attachment part of the brain and re-wire so that the self doesn’t feel perpetually threatened. Sometimes this person is a teacher, a clergy member, a grandparent, and aunt or uncle, but most often in adulthood the re-wiring is done by an excellent therapist.

I am one who has learned to walk away when I've come to a point that the conversation becomes unfruitful in any way. Genetically, I'm wired to "argue" like my biological mother.

I was also one who found someone able to enter the attachment part of my brain and the impulsive part (temporal lobes) and re-wire so my self doesn't feel perpetually threatened. In short, I'm able to say "I let you OWN your decision, behavior, issues and I own mine.

The first thing that entered my brain was a drug called TOPOMAX. I was on this for 9 months, and when I came off it and other anti-depressants, I was a new person. The impulsiveness that drove me to quit jobs, leave churches, ditch people, was GONE! The next thing I credit the "brain-fixing" with, would be my relationship with my spiritual mom, Nancy. Finally, I credit above all the others, my relationship with God and the faith that I have learned to stand/walk in.

Point being, I will only engage in conflict to a point, because I no longer have a NEED to prove myself right and you wrong. I am comfortable in my own skin and comfortable letting you have your own skin...no need for me to enmesh with you or clone you. I can just eventually let you "be."

~Laura
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 09:28:48 AM: ((((((((((((Laura))))))))))))) Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: gratitude28 on December 16, 2007, 09:44:19 AM: ((((((((((((((Laura))))))))))))
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 16, 2007, 09:50:08 AM: ((((((( Laura )))))))

with sincere respect and admiration.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2007, 09:52:48 AM: Dr. Grossman..... tt..... CB... maybe some others.... I am not, for one small moment, trying to figure out HOW to fix, change or otherwise rewire a person struggling for survival. My aspirations aren't so lofty, alas, lol.

I don't want to change anyone....

hmmm....

or do I?

::stepping back::

I guess that's not true.

I want to change the way we(general) respond to injured people.... esp the destructive ones that gaslight, scapegoat and impact our lives negatively bc we CAN't go NC with them.

My sister arrives this evening, btw.... in case anything goes all hysterical and mistakenly believes I only have thoughts for her@@

And I don't for a minute consider that we can go NC with anyone on this board.... I think you're foolin yourself if you think that's true.

They interact with others..... that impacts every ONE of us, whether we pretend it does or not.

Intimately blowing into someone's ear.... whispers in private..... Grooming. Cultivating. Flattering...... appreciating...... validating souls that never enjoyed the warm glow of acceptance and adoration before finding it here.

From where I'm standing, it's predatory but I can't be sure exactly what the angles are.... I'm a relatively newcome to the game.

That little whispered puff of wind creates ripples......

The ripples fan out and become larger.

By the time I'm pointing out small swells......

I'm creating waves :?

So...... the small whispers aren;t perceived as the problem..... the waves and the wavemaker are.

If the lessons on this board are to learn how to let the chaos flow THROUGH US.... and not involve our serenity, then I have to throw a red flag on the field.

I'm not interested in learning how to ensure the comfort and serenity of the gaslighters..... bc the group's comfort and serenity depends on my silence. I don't like being held hostage. I have a belly full of that in 3-D, thanks. ::burp::

Addressing CB's post as follows: Probably just repeating myself so sorry in advance.

Quote from: CB123 on December 15, 2007, 02:44:03 PM
I don't think that's fair and I think that type of hysteria is partly responsible for the escalation in conflict, though it's been accepted here like it's appropriate and rational by everybody but Hops, I think.

Lighter, I dont accept that it's appropriate and rational. It's not.

But it is revealing and I am hoping by staying out of the conflict, those kind of statements stand in bold relief and do not get lost in my inadequate response. I guess it goes back to what I said earlier: I don't really think I can say enough to convince someone otherwise if they really think that is an appropriate comment.

I'm so sorry, Lighter. I know that hurt.

CB
[/b][/i]

I guess you've just made my point, CB.

If my responses are inadequate and only serve to muddy the waters......

then I want to learn to respond in a way that isn't inadequate.

I think there must be some comfort in remaining silent...... replaying old FOO issues over and over and expecting a differnent result, perhaps?

I don't know but..... I'm pretty sure I won't ever find serenity in stifling my voice bc I'm being held hostage.

I can say it's given me tremendous insights into the mechanics of drug addiction and alcoholism.

If I had to accept that as my fate.... I would imagine I'd be drawn to those types of coping strategies just to get through my day.

::singing::

"Is that all there is?

If thats all there is, my friends, then lets keep dancing

Lets break out the booze and have a ball

If thats all there is"

I have to draw a parallel here between Lupita's situation with the old principal at her school and any chronic troubles on this board or in our 3-D lives for that matter.

Is it right that Lupita stand and take the innapropriate covert abuse silently? If not.... why is it appropriate for anyone on this board?

That's what her struggle's been about..... I see that very clearly. She's having a hard time explaining the abuse, finding her voice and doing something about it in a constructive manner that doesn't cause her to look even more like the troublemaker than she's already being portrayed as.

She needn't waste her time asking why.... and I assure you, I don't waste time asking that useless question either.

I'm good with accepting it and not trying to make sense of it... please don't confuse my struggle to come up with appropriate responses with trying to figure out why anyone does what they do or attempt to change them.

I feel like Dr. Grossman provided more of a WHY and still left me without anything useful with regard to a reasonable response.

I keep going back to dealing with craziness with a lighthearted pointed plainspoken honesty that captures the heart of the matter.

I'd like to go on record, once again, I'm outraged and appalled that accusations of Nazi like bahvior and lynch mob mentality have been leveled here and gone unnotices and allowed to continue.

If speaking the truth is removed from the board, bc it's pointed and abrasive...... then what the heck is going on with the outright name calling and inflammatory statements that are truly contentless and serve only to whip emotions up and garner idiot sympathy?

I have no idea if I'm going to be thrown off the board for this post, patted on the back or ignored, lol.

Topsy Turvy is how I'd describe my board experience right now. ::burp::
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 16, 2007, 10:02:56 AM: (((((((( Lighter ))))))))))

with respect and admiration for your courage to * speak * and * share *

Quote
So...... the small whispers aren't perceived as the problem..... the waves and the wavemaker are.

Remember dear Lighter, the story of the emperor's new clothes and the kid that no one liked -- at that point in time.

Truly, that's how it is in life more often than not, but you know what ? Those people knew deep down inside, as they did then
at that point become to * see * what was in front of them at that time, which is why they turned against the kid.

But that kid grew up, and I discern that that kid grew up with his/her courage and strength, to be.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 10:04:02 AM: I am handing Lighter some Pepto Bismol for all that "burping"
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2007, 11:05:36 AM: Quote from: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 10:04:02 AM
I am handing Lighter some Pepto Bismol for all that "burping"

Pepto doesn't help and there's more than just air involved :shock:

Honeybaked Turkey breast with blackbean salasa and Mango lime chutney..... Oy.

ps... I know you'll enjoy that post, Hops; )
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Overcomer on December 16, 2007, 11:40:11 AM: I guess there are a couple things I notice here when conflicts arise. I think sarcasm and innuendo are used to make people feel stupid. I have done it and I apologise. It seems easier than point blank telling someone you do NOT agree with them. I also think a general rule should be that if you would not say something to someone if we were all sitting in a circle, then you should not say it in cyberspace. Also if we were sitting in that circle there would not be any PMs going on.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 16, 2007, 11:46:12 AM: ((((((( Peace ))))))

with respect and admiration

as for me, I felt like that * kid *

Love, Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: CB123 on December 16, 2007, 12:02:35 PM: It seems easier than point blank telling someone you do NOT agree with them.

Kelly, I think that the reason a lot of us use veiled comments, or sarcasm, or humor, or whatever, is out of fear. We can hide behind those tactics if the criticism isnt well received--and with N's, it never is.

Lighter, I don't let this kind of thing blow past me because I am trying to keep peace. I let them blow past because I already am at peace. I let it blow past because I don't want to trade the peace that I have for agitation about the opinion of someone who has not proved themself a friend to me.

I am very, very sensitive to the comments of people who are close to me and who have earned my trust. A Nazi comment from someone that close would cut me off at the knees. But I have lots of people in my life that I trust, and none of them have ever said anything like that about me. A comment like that from someone who neither knows me or cares about me is, ultimately, not worth giving up my peace over.

However, its not fair to ignore that kind of stuff when it is directed at someone else--as this was against you. And I am sorry that I let it blow past me. I think that I thought it would bounce off you the same way. There are all kinds of NC--you are grappling with the impossibility of going NC with people that you interact with every day, that you HAVE to interact with every day. I have done more of that than I have the actual, physical NC. What I have found is that there is an inner NC where you don't let someone in who has proved themselves abusive. They can walk past you--you can even have a conversation with them--but they are not allowed into a place where their opinion of you determines anything about how you see yourself.

Yes--you are seeing reality: the grooming, and all the rest. It is really there. You are not imagining it. The current cast of characters who are doing it have simply replaced the last cast of characters who did it. You have seen it on the playground, in the sorority, in the PTA, in your family....and here. And you will see it again. It will flourish in PM land. It always has.

It's ugly but it is wearing a cloak of pretty respectability. And it won't go away. And you will never understand it, because you arent part of it. The only people who really GET it are the ones who are participating. So you can try to look at it from every angle, but you arent going to get it. I don't get it either--but I don't really want to.

It's not the comfort and serenity of the gaslighters that is in question here. They will create their own comfort out of chaos because that's what they do. It's YOUR comfort and serenity. It CAN'T depend on understanding these dynamics. To truly understand them, you have to be part of them. And you aren't.

Love you muchly, Lighter,
CB
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 12:07:01 PM: I do not agree with you CB, but the great thing about the board is that we ALL have our voices
Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 01:08:37 PM: Consensus(numbers) does not EQUAL "rightness'----------just a thought. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 02:31:33 PM: People who do not like/understand humour, tend to think it is an unfair way of approaching a topic. They often say that it is a fearful, defensive way to deal with a subject. And on this thread, it has been said that those who use humour 'wouldn't use it if we were face to face'.

Erm...how do you know that? Perhaps you think that because you wouldn't?

You may not, but I do, sometimes. It's how I communicate. It's not out of fear, but out of frustration, usually.

Other people like to tackle every topic by bringing religion into it.

If one approach is tolerated on the forum, and the other isn't, then that seems unfair, to me.

Lighter - your post #86 is incredibly insightful, but doesn't stand a chance of being dealt with, IMO. People who have brought this problem up before, have left, in the end, out of frustration that nothing here changes. You shouldn't be in danger of being banned for telling the truth (i.e. the problem) as you see it. But don't hold your breath for anything to change - too many people want things to stay just as they are...

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2007, 02:55:55 PM: Long Rant Warning..... addressed to CB (hi CB) ::waving::

Please know that rants have lives of their own..... I love ya CB..... nothing personal but I was reading your post when it started so.... here goes:

the Nazi reference.......

the lynching, murdering mob, attacking a minority reference......

the shark comments.....

they DID bounce off me.

And I'm pretending scary stuff bounces off me in 3-d world, all the time. It's part of what makes it possible for me to be preyed upon so efficiently. But it prevents blood from getting in the water.... the smell of blood makes me more vulernable and I know this. You wanna talk about a difficult catch 22, lol!?!?!?!?

What's bothersome about it is... and I know this is repetition but..... I read enough repetive trip here that I might get away with it for moment?

That Ami's free to roil and burn her way over the board bc I'm stoic or unfazed?

The board's serenity isn't unfazed and it's certainly not dependant on my NOT MAKING WAVES, though it sometimes appears that I'm scapegoated in that direction :shock:

And it seems to just be accepted that she'll behave that way..... she's got a hall pass and that's that. ::shrug::

::ticking off on fingers:: I find it escalates conflict.

I interpret it as predatory on THIS forum.

Ami's comments bouncing off me don't mean she should be free to use tactics I seriously would be hefted off the board for, and I would expect to be. Dr. G knows what he'd do to me if I name called inflammatory untrue preposterouse..... eh.... he wouldn't give me a third warning.

If I look at intentions.... I still don't come up with any reasons why I'm called on my posts and Ami's left to her innapropriate responses, aside from MY RESPONSES TO HER, which don't include the inflammatory roiling around scream of the wounded victim.

::BIG breath::

It's easy to hurt strong people..... less discomfort for those who have to do something about a situation. It's always been easier, I see it in the court system. I see it in my family.

Dismissing victims is so much more comfortable than dealing with the perpetrators... and I don't use these words lightly, nor am I referring to myself as a victim.

Now, I'm moved to thoughts about victims identifying with their abusers...... so we're back to what do you do with a victim that goes on to victimize..... pathalogical or not?

How do you treat them?

I'M NOT INTERESTED IN TREATING THEM!

I just want to know how to RESPOND to them and their behavior so that my WAVES aren't perceived to be the problem and I get dismissed, then chastised then banned :?

In all worlds, 3-d and cyber.

Just because Typhoid Mary couldn't understand that she was harming/injuring/killing people on that maternity ward..... does that mean she's allowed to continue?

I see.... I perceive.... I interpret this behavior as predatory, no matter what the intentions are.

The intentions aren't relevant, IMO. Heh.... the opinion of an INFP.

I'm frustrated that I see something, lots of people see it, I suppose even Dr. G sees it but there's no apparent approrpiate way to deal with it.

HOW CAN THAT BE!?!?!?

We're allowed to identify our 3-d grievances ad nauseum here.... but I'm beginning to understand/feel/interpret that we may not be honest about each other on the board, esp if something egregious is taking place.

The elephant in the room is sitting on people but
SILENCE!

Eyes down?

Quit noticing???!

For God's sake don't point it out.... quit staring.

If you say something you get the very familiar N response and it works!

Holy shit it's a very effective artform and it has a voice and it gets away with murder and it eats... ::crunch crunch crunch::
(I know you don't understand Hope,but I'm rolling so no time to explain the crunchcrunch, K?)

::Speaking in proper uptight school marm voice:: I spy anti social behavior at work on the board.....

Very well! Right here under our noses! And it's a lesson for me bc if we can't learn to overtly identify it here..... we're not going to be able to do it in our 3-d lives.

We'd best just circle the wagons and head for cover. Be silent and be scared...... pretend we're confused and make minimal eye contact with those who see the reality with us. What the hell, let's teach our children to be silent and scared too, since they learn from watching us, eh?

I see that here....

I see it.... ::shaking head::

we assume everyone has an N on their backs in 3-D world but..... you'd best not identify one HERE>

Nope nope nope.

Here..... N tactics thrive, convolute, confuse and twist knots into the board,

for all the lessons we've been learning, all the coping strategies and comminication tools we're adopting......

::wandering if I've completely confused everyone again with what they think are my intentions and thoughts::

there isn't dick we've learned about overt identififcation and labeling so that we can all cleanly say.... "It is what it is" and go on about our business with less strife cause we don't allow it HERE. We have some clean clear way of providing CLARITY with minimal bloodshed :shock:

Dramatic but, I'm on a roll.....

It's not PC to lable. (But we do it all the time about people who aren't here!)

We're not qualified to dx anyone. (yet we do it here all the time in reference to people who aren't here!)

We accept each others insights, feelings and thoughts as long as it's in the abstract and not concrete and to my way of thinking more than a handful of people have admitted they see things exactly the way I do but.....

"Lighter had best learn to be silent and not speak her mind all the time ::nod::... there are lessons she has to learn about that."

Yup yup yup.

"Lighter makes waves and that's so destructive to board serenity...::nod:: Everyone can agree on this."

"Lighter makes funny threads and statements that pretty much hit the nail on the head...... Oh dear, best remove that as it's inflammatory and attacking....."

And here comes some sarcasm.... so hold on to your boots, folks:

As opposed to her being called a Nazi, having a mob mentality that would lynch a brown man and being a shark.

::board murmering:: She should really take lessons on being judicial with her tongue....::nod::

yes yes yes... I see it very very clearly ::board murmering:: Lighter's so disruptive, we should really teach her to communicate better, we should show her how to voice her opinions with silence....

And that..... is what I call ironic :shock:

Being taught to be silent, on an emotional survival message board that is supposed to teach people how to use their voices, lol.

It doesn't.

It teaches us how to identify abuse and go NC.

It may teach us a bit about how NOT go crazy in the case of NOT BEING ABLE TO GO NC..... we're understood and sympathized with, given words of encouragement.....

And I've really depended on those words don't get me wrong I'm here bc I've been kept sane by this board but.....

I don't believe it's here to give us our voices back anymore. Maybe in future relationships with healthier people... but... not with the N's or the whatever lable you want to choose.

It teaches us coping strategies for dealing with the INSANITY we experience when dealing with people who do

improbable

nonsensical

unbelievable

self destructive

chaotic

things TO us.

I don't believe Ami is trying to heal,

I think she's here to continue doing what she does cause it makes her feel better.

For for whatever reason, and like CB said, I won't ever be able to make sense of it, so glad I;ve given up hope of that in all areas of my life.

It makes me feel better to research learn and grow.... to reach out and help people if I can, and that might include throwing a red flag, calling something the way I see it or drawing attention to a pattern of abuse that's as plain as the nose on my face by now.

If nobody gets a badge for being helpful.... why would they get one for being destructive?

Makes no sense ::shaking head:: I guess this is what Mud meant by keeping my nose out of the lives of people who've experienced FOO abuse.

Dr. Grossman..... I think you went into this field bc your own family was dysfunction and you wanted to figure it out.

I took that from your general post to the board, not directed to me, no hard feelings.

I don't think you've figured out how to deal with the Cluster B people either.

I guess there is no way to deal with them..... you just get rolled around by them and survive.

I came a great long way in my life, overcoming and moving beyond, BECAUSE nobody could hold me ransom.... nobody could leverage me.... I was able to take myself out of a situation and just go.

I KNOW HOW TO DO THAT!

What I don't know how to do is navigate the world when someone I love, something I love, is being held hostage.

The RANSOM, I pay, is my silence....... my ability to keep my trap shut.

Never mind my learning to use my voice, lol.... ::slapping knee::

Ya know.... here's another bit of ironic humor.....

Sam Vaknin explains how to live with an N in his book, you know the one.

He pretty much lays out how to subjugate yourself, stifle yourself, pimp yourself..... lol......

and I got the irony, I got his sarcasm... I did...as upset as I was when I was reading it I got it...... no laughter but I identified it and here I am..... realizing that blunt, horrible, sarcastic sick Sam knew all along what's taken me this long to figure out.

There IS NO SANE ACCEPTABLE WAY TO RESPOND TO IT, LIVE WITH IT OR PLAY DRESS UP DOLL MAKEBELIEVEABOUTIT!

Ami's free to go about her destructive business of making herself feel better.....

All the N's are free bc we look insane and make waves when we point out irrational nutsey rocksey koo koo crazy behavior and we'd better get used to just shaking our heads and clucking our tongues..... try to feel serene about it.

Ummmm..... like I said.... I didn't come all this way.... well into my 30's, to be held hostage here and for always and ever in my 3-d life.

DAMNIT!

And yet.... here I am.... learning to play the game and becoming so much darker and manipulative and sneaky and GOOD at it.

My sister was the kid who snuck up on the cookies, took one on the sly and scurried away to enjoy it unnoticed.

I was the twin that dodey dodied up to the plate, reached up and took a cookie, bit it and smiled at the adults around me.

It's not that I'm learning that I'm wrong or flawed or dirty or human.....

it's that

I'm

learning

how

to

pretend

destructive,

scapegoating,

gaslighting

people.......

AREN'T.

And if it doesn't kill this INFP...... so help me if I live through it (dramatic eh, lol?)

I'll let'cha know how it works out for me.

ahem..... Provided I'm allowed back on the board or someone keeps in touch through regular e mail.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2007, 03:22:14 PM: Quote from: Overcomer on December 16, 2007, 11:40:11 AM
I guess there are a couple things I notice here when conflicts arise. I think sarcasm and innuendo are used to make people feel stupid. I have done it and I apologise. It seems easier than point blank telling someone you do NOT agree with them. I also think a general rule should be that if you would not say something to someone if we were all sitting in a circle, then you should not say it in cyberspace. Also if we were sitting in that circle there would not be any PMs going on.

So..... just wanna get this straight....

antisocial behavior on the board...... if done with a belly up don't hurt me sweety sweet feighned helpful posture.....

is good.

Poiinting out the antisocial bahevior....

in any way, particularly the last breaths of frustration breathing life into the argument with on target witty responses full of sarcasm....

Bad.

I guess the old saying "Don't shoot the messenger" has a very good reason for having been penned :shock:
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 03:30:08 PM: As I'm reading this post I'm saying to myself, so I'm saying to you all...has MY behavior been antisocial toward anyone here. I certainly hope not. That would break my heart to know that I was perceived that way. I consider myself to really be a people-person and I enjoy people a lot of the time. Please, feel free to let me know if this label of antisocialite fits me in some way. I welcome any perceptions of me.

~Laura
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2007, 03:46:08 PM: ::hugging Laura::
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 03:47:14 PM: lighter,

I completely agree with you again. (Oh, how embarrassing ::eating hat::)

This situation reminds me so much of just before authentic gave up on the forum. She kept pointing out what was dysfunctional about it, and no-one wanted to hear.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 16, 2007, 03:48:27 PM: To my mind, it's quite simple:

Heeding the warnings of this forum's owner is good.
Defying those warnings is bad.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: lighter on December 16, 2007, 03:51:11 PM: Quote from: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 03:47:14 PM
lighter,

I completely agree with you again. (Oh, how embarrassing ::eating hat::)

This situation reminds me so much of just before authentic gave up on the forum. She kept pointing out what was dysfunctional about it, and no-one wanted to hear.

Janet

Ummmm, Jane, lol.

According to Ami.... I'm was Auth's main reason for complain, lol.

And yes.... it does remind me a lot of that conflict.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Leah on December 16, 2007, 03:52:11 PM: Today (((( Laura )))))

I have only witnessed your self reflection and subsequent thoughtfulness and grace.

Which has my respect and admiration.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 03:56:23 PM: Yeah Carolyn, that's right

Dr G had to nail my butt at one point in pm and tell me to chill.
I was not happy nor appreciative at the time
but I did HEED it

Things passed by and I'm still here, so yeah, if the good Doc tells you that you are out of line, it works best to let the man win!

~Laura
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 03:57:14 PM: lighter,

"According to Ami.... I'm was Auth's main reason for complain, lol."

Sorry? Don't understand that.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 04:13:17 PM: Yes---Dysfunctional Behavior (Authentic) WAS about bullying-----just the SAME kind that *I* took. HOWEVER,I had more ego strength than poor Authentic. That was the ONLY difference. Ami

Lighter,
You THINK you are hurting me, humiliating me ,margiinalizing me, when ACTUALLY you are GIVING me the answer to ALL my "moaning posts" ,which you hate SO much. The answer......drumroll....I HAVE a core and it IS strong enough to stand up to......WHATEVER.(I call HOW YOU have treated me --"whatever-"-- Lighter )......WHO would have thunk it-----huh? Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 04:19:24 PM: lighter,

Your comment wasn't in proper English, so I didn't understand what you meant. Would you write it again, with all the letters? Thanks.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: changing on December 16, 2007, 04:40:21 PM: AMI

Please answer the question that was previously put to you by another member of the community. Do you have a connection to Dr. Grossman other than being an anonymous person on the Board (family ties, professional,business, social)? I feel intimidated now responding to your posts, as you have been able to "report " others to "Richard" as you put it not so subtly, while warning us "little people" that we should not bother him ourselves, but instead learn to "suck it up" and deal with things that bother us without bringing our petty concerns to "Richard". I am also intimidated by the way that you have taunted and provoked others in the name of "Richard" , violated the trust and boundaries of others without any fear of rebuke from Dr. Grossman ("Richard"), kept taunting and provoking, etc. Others have requested that you stop this behavior as well, but you continue, seemingly with impunity.

DO YOU HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO DR. GROSSMAN ?
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 04:43:44 PM: THIS fight IS Authentic ALL over again--the SAME cast of characters. You KNOW who you are.. I remember WHEN I made the decision to stand up for Authentic who was being unmercifully violated ---lynched --if you will. . I said that I WOULD have a voice who could stand up against evil(bullying). I MUST be able to stand up for what is right. I need to do this in order to respect myself,in quiet moments.
All of the cast of charcters,, the SAME ones who are here today--- all drove her off the board in shame...All of the the wonderful, "whisteblowers"
WHY did everyone hate Authentic------b/c she was too REAL. That is why you hate me. I am real and raw about my emotions. You simply want to destroy the 'bleeding wound".
I bet that you are surprised that you had the EXACT opposite effect with me. I am not going anywhere.. I am right here finding my voice and you know what----I like my voice. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 16, 2007, 04:47:53 PM: Quote from: Ami on December 16, 2007, 04:43:44 PM
THIS fight IS Authentic ALL over again--the same cast of characters----CB, Hops, Certain Hope,Lighter. I remember WHEN I made the decision to stand up for Authentic who was being unmercifully violated ---lynched --if you will. . I said that I WOULD have a voice who could stand up against evil(bullying). I MUST be able to stand up for what is right. I need to do this in order to respect myself,in quiet moments.
All of the cast of charcters,mature CB, saintly Hops, Bibliical Carolyn all drove her to almost suicide..All of the the wonderful, "whisteblowers"
WHY did everyone hate Authentic------b/c she was too REAL. That is why you hate me. I am real and raw about my emotions. You simply want to destroy the 'bleeding wound".
I bet that you are surprised that you had the EXACT opposite effect with me. I am not going anywhere.. I am right here finding my voice and you know what----I like my voice. Ami

Ami,

If you do not remove this post immediately, I will report it to Dr. Grossman as the lying harassment it is.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 04:48:49 PM: I am sorry that you cannot see the evil done against ME ,Changing----VERY sorry However,you are seeing it backwards,as is your right. I am deeply sorry about this,but it does NOT change the 'truth' . I will not dignify the 'Richard" part with a response. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 04:51:27 PM: We are talking about RAW bullying here, Certain Hope. It is raw bullying of me(Richard reprimanded Lighter twice so HE saw it) and it WAS raw bullying of Authentic. My post stands, Certain Hope
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 04:51:57 PM: Carolyn,

I have just reported the post you refer to as well. I expect something to be done about it.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 16, 2007, 04:54:18 PM: Quote from: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 04:51:57 PM
Carolyn,

I have just reported the post you refer to as well. I expect something to be done about it.

Janet

Thank you, Janet. On edit... I went ahead and reported it as well, with my own comment about the slanderous nature of Ami's remarks and the unchecked power trip she is obviously flying high upon.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: changing on December 16, 2007, 05:00:28 PM: Dr. Grossman-

With all due respect, in the event that a person is actually experiencing both harm and the threat of harm, or perceives said harm being perpetrated upon another quite unfairly, in certain situations even speaking about it is not permitted. The perpetrator can be sacrosanct because of who they are or who they know, while none of the "little people" can even talk about what is happening. All unfairness becomes triggers, all outrage a battle for the self, sinful thoughts questioning God's will, etc. which can be explained away by virtue of the disease of the person in question.
It is not always pathology, or sin, the acting out of childhood issues, or thought crime to question or to see wrong- there is in reality actual wrongdoing and unfairness, and doctors , judges , and other authorities are not the only beings who can legitimately discern these wrongs. Individual biases do not make actions just. Persons with power relationships are not necessarily good or just.
It may be smarter in a certain sense to pretend that they are and not cross threatening people- this dynamic can be seen for instance in places where people live under the rule of the Taliban- if one sees a wrong perpetrated by an elite, or dares to question the system, that person is silenced. All of the major horrors of mankind were perpetrated in this way.
I once read an article I believe in the East-West Journal, where a psychiatrist successfully rewired her anxious patient who was always afraid, and thought that she should leave the country, as she believed that the government would eventually kill her. As I remember it, several months after the successful treatment, the patient died in a concentration camp, as this took place in Nazi Germany.
I have seen some who can freely violate others here, including repeatedly issuing blatant threats and taunts, as well as hurling vile aspersions against them, judging others sexual choice with condemnation according to their own religious perceptions, all the while intimating that they have a sympathetic ear for their concerns, and can do as they please to violate others, while others do not, and cannot even question them. In fact, these people were not censored, and the conduct continued. At other times members of this Board have complained that these persons have violated their stated request not to include them in any sense in assisting them in conducting any immoral acts, or to use this Board for purposes of religious harassment. Still this conduct continued and often increased, said conduct appearing to be much more egregious than that which attracted so much attention and public punishment. Of course, as I have no connections with anyone, my observations on this are almost certainly suspect, and very possibly in violation of some arbitrary standard or other in and of themselves...
I would hope that anyone, not matter who they are or who they know, would be held to the same standards and given the same admonitions and punishments as have been meted out publically to Lighter when they clearly demonstrate taunting, pressure and provocative actions against her and others. I believe that anyone who continues to try to use whatever influence they have here against Lighter or others should be provided the same psychological assistance in seeing the errors of their ways, irregardless of that influence. We should all treat one another properly- there is no one on this board whose expressed hostility and inappropriate actions are somehow better than others.

Thank you,
Changing.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 05:13:22 PM: I am sorry you feel that way, Izzy.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: reallyME on December 16, 2007, 05:18:04 PM: changing, you posted:
Quote
as well as hurling vile aspersions against them, judging others sexual choice with condemnation according to their own religious perceptions, all the while intimating that they have a sympathetic ear for their concerns, and can do as they please to violate others, while others do not, and cannot even question them.

was this in reference to my words to Tayana? If so, I'd like to know, because I felt that I most definitely did my best to not mistreat her on basis of her undisclosed (yet covertly aluded to) sexual practices. i really don't want/need to know whom is sleeping with whom. I do have definite beliefs about what is right Biblically and not right, however, I did not get deeply into it, when Tay preferred to not make it a topic of discussion, did I?

Please let me know if my posting with Tay is what you were referring to above.

thank you
~Laura
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 05:28:41 PM: Dr Grossman,
I am answering vicious bullying,as I see it. There is still the SAME bullying going on in THIS thread(IMO). There IS sniping and undermining of ME. When I defend myself, the people seem to think THAT is slander. I AM able to defend myself. That is not my issue. I simply think that I should be able to answer the snipes BACK,in a respectful way,as I have.(IMO) If you don't think that I was respectful, I will adhere to that---- graciously . If not,I will continue to defend myself as I see fit, trying to do so with dignity and integrity . Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Overcomer on December 16, 2007, 05:30:25 PM: What I meant was if you would not have the balls to say something to someone's face, then I would not say it on the board. I also do not think it is healthy to gather allies in PM Land and then gang up on others. I do not think strong opinions=bad, I think abusive language and sarcasm is bad. I believe we can make a point without insinuating stupidity. We all have the right to state what we see and hear and argue if we do not agree-but we do NOT have the right to be a@@holes.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 16, 2007, 05:41:11 PM: Quote from: Ami on December 16, 2007, 05:28:41 PM
I am answering vicious bullying,as I see it. There is still the SAME bullying going on in THIS thread(IMO). There IS sniping and undermining of ME. When I defend myself, the people seem to think THAT is slander. Ami

I have not viciously bullied you, Ami.

I have not sniped at you or undermined you.

You, Ami, have slandered me.

That is why I reported your post.

I am not sure whether or not you are even capable of admitting the truth to yourself, but what you are experiencing is an acting out of the law of cause and effect.
You objectify me - I object.
Simple as that.
In other words, you are reaping that to which you've sown.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 05:45:15 PM: We HAVE to disagree ,Certain Hope. IF you HADN"T bullied me --WHY did Dr.G PULL " Fuzzy Wuzzy "which YOU thought was "wonderful fun"? Ami

YOU thought Fuzzy Wuzzy should have all her hair shaved,as I remember. WHAT do you call THAT, Certain Hope?
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: changing on December 16, 2007, 06:01:42 PM: I have never reported anyone to "Richard" (I don't know him) or to Dr. Grossman(no connection there, either). I think that we can handle things for ourselves here, except on the extremely rare occassion when it rises to the level of pathology- racism, actual threats, violent messianic complexes etc. "You alcoholic..."- These people need the services of professionals.

What I object to is the appearance of an elitist hierarchy,based on connections or a lynch mob situation. In such situations, a person like me cannot even refer to this dynamic without being threatened with retribution of some sort or another. It's just too bad and too sad- why not just enjoy the position you have and let others do as they will? If things were handled more delicately,no one would even know or care.

If some people are in a special position, I think that we deserve to know this- ie, "That's the boss' wife (or sisters, etc). Please keep her (them) happy." I certainly feel used and violated if that is indeed the case and I was not informed.

If there are no "special relationships", then justice should prevail. We can and should handle things in a decent and fair way.
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Certain Hope on December 16, 2007, 06:04:45 PM: Quote from: Ami on December 16, 2007, 05:45:15 PM
We HAVE to disagree ,Certain Hope. IF you HADN"T bullied me --WHY did Dr.G PULL " Fuzzy Wuzzy "which YOU thought was "wonderful fun"? Ami

Ami,

You seem to be making things up as you go along here... why? Is it that threatening to you to consider that your interpretation just might possibly be wrong?

Now you refer to a thread which I believe has since been deleted - and in the process, you re-write history by putting....

let's see, what are you putting?

Words into my mouth?

No... more than that, you are actually putting thoughts into my mind!

You can't do that, Ami... you can't because I won't let you. My boundaries are firmly in place. Maybe that's why you hate me?

The fact is = I said nothing on that thread about having "wonderful fun" and I thought nothing of the sort, either.
I have seen nothing fun in one speck of this entire ordeal and I've said as much on other threads.
What I am is - sick and tired of your demented lies.
My ex-husband played this warped game with me time and again, always telling me what I thought and lying about what I'd said to him - about what he'd said to me. No one will ever succeed in tormenting me that way again.

I really wish that you would be willing to see what you're doing here, but it's obvious that you don't want to look within, Ami... I guess it's too cozy to sit back and consider yourself the poor, innocent victim and blame others for your situation.

I can't stop you from carrying on your charade on this board, but I can certainly speak up boldly when you bring my name into it along with more false accusations and lies.

I am adding this latest post of yours to those which I am reporting to Dr. Grossman as another example of your continued harassment.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Ami on December 16, 2007, 06:08:15 PM: IF the Fuzzy Wuzzy (me) thread comes 'back",you WILL see where YOU are having great fun at MY expense---Certain Hope. Ami
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: JanetLG on December 16, 2007, 06:08:59 PM: Well said, Carolyn - and it's shame that the Fuzzy Wuzzy thread was deleted, as now we can't check for ourselves WHAT was said (or not said), making it easier for this kind of thing to happen. I didn't remember you saying anything of the sort on that thread, either.

Janet
Title: Re: Dr. Grossman
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on December 16, 2007, 06:12:42 PM: Hi everyone,

I'm locking this thread--it has devolved into the same conflict.

Changing: in the 9 years that the board has been running, I have only known one person who posted. That person hasn't posted for about a year or two, and when they did, they posted very sporadically. They were never involved in any conflict on the board. I hope this helps.

Best,

Richard