Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: finding peace on December 16, 2007, 12:34:37 PM
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I moved this to my own thread because I do not want my voice to negatively impact another thread. If this is perceived by Dr. G as restarting something that has been locked (which is not my intent at all), I will gladly remove it at his request. I am feeling a bit like I am being forced to be silent, so I will try to say what I believe here instead. Dr. G please let me know if you find this inappropriate and I will remove it.
Hi Lighter,
You said:
And I don't for a minute consider that we can go NC with anyone on this board.... I think you're foolin yourself if you think that's true.
They interact with others..... that impacts every ONE of us, whether we pretend it does or not.
Intimately blowing into someone's ear.... whispers in private..... Grooming. Cultivating. Flattering...... appreciating...... validating souls that never enjoyed the warm glow of acceptance and adoration before finding it here.
From where I'm standing, it's predatory but I can't be sure exactly what the angles are.... I'm a relatively newcome to the game.
That little whispered puff of wind creates ripples......
The ripples fan out and become larger.
By the time I'm pointing out small swells......
I'm creating waves
So...... the small whispers aren;t perceived as the problem..... the waves and the wavemaker are.
Lighter, I agree with what you’ve written here for the most part. In all honesty (and throwing the idiot sympathy out the window for the moment – I know you can take it), sometimes the way in which you point to the small swells sometimes creates more waves.
I agree there is a problem. It iseems to be a repeating pattern, and at least in my view, a lot of people have been hurt by it – with some being driven from the board.
The thing is – and this is the catch-22 of this place – is it predatory or is it unconscious? And here is where the why comes in and why I ask it.
We all have blind spots. Maybe this is a huge blind spot, compounded by a double-bind (ie, Dr. G’s post about not backing down).
I am going to be very honest here and it is painful for me. As a child growing up with N parents I had to shut them out. And this is how I think in some ways an N is created. I only had myself to rely on, so as a child with very black and white thinking, I had to say to myself I am right – everything they say is wrong. (In other words, I couldn’t back down on that stance, because otherwise I would have been eaten alive.) Sad thing, in a sense I became exactly what they were. It wasn’t until my late teens that I hurt an innocent rather badly with this attitude, it opened my eyes to what I was doing, and brought me to my knees – you see, I woke up to their pain and my role in it. The pain I caused haunts me to this day.
In one blinding flash of light, I lost my blind spot, and realized that by my refusing to step back and self-reflect, I was causing others pain.
By virtue of what this place is – a place to learn and grow, we are stuck a bit in a double-bind. You see it, I see it, many here I believe see it. But is it predatory or is it a pattern playing out from childhood? I don’t know – and I don’t want to make the mistake of guessing wrong.
I don’t know the answer or what to make of it.
Much love to you,
Peace
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I have to say, finding peace, speaking as one who has been "targeted" on this Voicelessness Board, I would put my "vote" in on people replaying childhood reactions but also using childhood defense mechanisms.
I have seen this recently while watching one member use wry humor to subtly "jab" at another
I've seen it in a member deciding to write off another member because that person did not take their side
I've seen it in people proclaiming that they are leaving the board because things are too chaotic for them
I've seen it in people saying that they are not the ones causing any of the problems (hero status)
and I've seen it in people who say that everyone is out to get them (paranoia, martyrism)
I do not really see people's behaviors as predatory, although some psychopaths and sociopaths might find their way here from time to time, who knows...it's not like Dr G takes a formal mental/medical history on everyone who finds this place. I just think basically that the people on this board are people who were abused, neglected, or spoiled as children and in some ways, are still behaving the way that was protective for them long ago.
~Laura
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Ummmmm.....
Bingo anyone?
Laura..... when you wrote "sociopaths and psychopaths" a lightbulb went off.
It's familiar and probably a trigger, what can I say.... ?
I think if it walks like a duck,
acts like a duck
and quacks like a duck....
::whispering::
IT'S A DUCK!
Who gives a frog's fat ass if we're empathic or snide or kind or quoting scripture when we say it?
Why on God's green earth is it perfectly acceptable to BE a duck.....
and so wrong to point it out?
Not a rhetorical question people and yes, you'd be correct to assume there's some sarcasm attached to this post :x
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Peace,
I agree with lighter, but with different words!!
"But is it predatory or is it a pattern playing out from childhood?"
Whichever it is, whoever is the person who has the nerve to speak out about it, shouldn't be attacked for naming the 'elephant in the living room'. If there's an elephant in the room, it's not the job of the person speaking out to say if it's a deliberately predatory elephant, or an emotionally-abused elephant. But it IS an elephant. (Or a duck, whatever)
But when people say 'Stop saying there's an elephant!!' and that is then seen as the problem (the telling), then some people on the forum, who hate to see conflict, tend to go for the 'let's all keep quiet and everything will be lovely' response, rather than the 'let's deal with the root of the problem (the elephant)'.
Am I making sense here?
Whistle-blowers are not the problem. What they are whistle-blowing ABOUT is the problem.
That's what I mean. I think.
Janet
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Hi Lighter and Janet (and Laura),
Lighter - was that sarcasm directed at me, or because of your frustration with the situation? Because if it was directed at me - I would appreciate if you would not do that again. Been there done that - refuse to go there again.
I agree with you both in a sense. And am frustrated too.
Yes - Lighter is having the finger pointed at her when, in my opinion, she is the whistle blower. Athough I will say that part of the problem, IMO, is because of the way she is blowing the whistle.
That being said - I don't think what is being done to Lighter and many others here is fair or right.
But I don't feel qualified to call what looks like a duck a duck - and my reason stands above.
Peace
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It kind of appears that a few of us are really on the same page with this topic.
I really like what Janet had to say about it : But when people say 'Stop saying there's an elephant!!' and that is then seen as the problem (the telling), then some people on the forum, who hate to see conflict, tend to go for the 'let's all keep quiet and everything will be lovely' response, rather than the 'let's deal with the root of the problem (the elephant)'.
Am I making sense here?
Whistle-blowers are not the problem. What they are whistle-blowing ABOUT is the problem.
You are making perfect sense and I agree that some people who hate conflict will then tend to try and keep things quiet. I've seen it over the past years I've been on this board. I'd guess that those might be those highly sensitive people maybe.
Me, well, i just know that conflict is going to spring up in life. I can either join in, opt out, or roll with the punches so to speak.
~Laura
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Hi Lighter and Janet (and Laura),
Lighter - was that sarcasm directed at me, or because of your frustration with the situation? Because if it was directed at me - I would appreciate if you would not do that again. Been there done that - refuse to go there again.
Peace
Thanks for asking for clarification, Peace.
No, the sarcasm was not directed at you.
I can't even begin to imagine why you'd think that except that you started this thread.
I was responding to Laura's post, as referenced with the sociopath duck stuff.
The sarcase was directed at the Universe, which is, after all.... against us :?
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Look there's an Elephant here ...
..... When working in a large organization, a few years ago, I witnessed a 'Whistle Blower' someone whose behaviour gradually became
totally out of character.
Why did that happen ?
Because, just like the * kid * who saw that the emperor had no clothes on --- those around him * chose * to not * see *
When someone can * see * : which the perpetrator * perceives * as a threat : then * sabotage * is roled out in the game.
In effect, what was done against the innocent whistle blower was * crazy making * until he was fired.
Nothing changed in the organization.
Business as usual with a "let's change the subject" in an act of avoidance and denial.
That was the truth and that is the truth.
Leah
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Dear Peace,
With admiration and love and respect and the warmest heart toward you.... I feel (not think, but feel) that this entire thing is snowballing in a direction you never intended... please take care.
Carolyn
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Leah, your post was a really accurate description of what we whistle-blowers experience often:
..... When working in a large organization, a few years ago, I witnessed a 'Whistle Blower' someone whose behaviour gradually became
totally out of character.
Why did that happen ?
Because, just like the * kid * who saw that the emperor had no clothes on --- those around him * chose * to not * see *
When someone can * see * : which the perpetrator * perceives * as a threat : then * sabotage * is roled out in the game.
In effect, what was done against the innocent whistle blower was * crazy making * until he was fired.
Nothing changed in the organization.
Business as usual with a "let's change the subject" in an act of avoidance and denial.
That was the truth and that is the truth.
This is what happened to me: I pointed out through questioning X, "Why do you treat your daughter that way? Why does it seem like everyone in your family walks on eggshells around you, trying to please you every step of the way?"
I also questioned X's family and friends as I sought to blow the whistle.
The reaction was exactly as Leah described: the parents/family/some friends chose not to "see" while I CLEARLY saw and addressed it.
Next, X perceived and painted me as a threat to the inner, dysfunctional homeostasis of the group, and finally SABATOGE was released. I was threatened to keep quiet or else, my friends were blacklisted against me, my ministry room online was manipulatively covertly shut down, and finally, X's new supply source decided to let me know how much of a better "fit" she was for X than I was, and X ultimatey justified ditching me and most likely, erasing me from thought.
Did X's situation change? Not that I could tell from our last encounter. X still sees me as the one with most of the issues and as far as I know, X's child is still scapegoated, people still walk on eggshells and hesitate to rile X, and their lives go on.
~
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Dear Carolyn,
Only the truth can ever make for freedom, of thought and action.
Bless you both (((((( Carolyn )))))) and ((((( Peace ))))))
with much gentle love and consideration.
Love, Leah
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Dear Leah,
The truth was uncovered 100 some posts ago...
now all I am seeing is alot of rolling around in the muck.
Love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Reading through this thread from the beginning, all I can see is a discussion. As others on other threads keep telling us, if people don't want to read things, they have the option of leaving that thread alone. While this thread is relatively peaceful, isn't it OK for us to discuss this?
And, with all due respect to you, I don't see this as 'rolling around in the muck'. I see it as taking recent events one stage further - by looking at dysfunction on the forum that might have CAUSED the recent events. That's a new angle to discuss, IMO.
Janet
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I'm with Janet in her sentiments. Let the discussion begin!
~Laura
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((((((Dear Carolyn)))))))
Thank you so much for your post (#10). Your feelings are correct and spot on as usual.
The dysfunction I have seen here and tried to speak to has me feeling like I am once again sliding back into the black hole of my childhood (my trigger), I do believe it needs to be spoken of as many are being hurt, a lot of whom have no idea what hit them. But because of the strong feelings associated with it, it seems to me it is spiraling out of control, and I am having trouble handling that.
You are right, I need to take care. I need to step back.
I am not going to lock this thread, but won't be posting for awhile.
Much love to all of you,
Peace
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(((((((((((Peace)))))))))) It'll all come out in the wash... just don't think that you need to conquer every mountain today, all at once. I will be thinking of you... with love.
Carolyn
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Peace,
I'm sorry this is getting too hot to handle for you. I think you're very strong to have started this thread at all. Thanks for not pulling it, as I think what's been said so far is important, and deserves to stay.
Janet
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(((((((((( Peace )))))))))))
Much love to you kind gentle one.
Love, Leah
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Just speaking for myself and hardly speaking here at all anymore due to what I view as a pointless conflict which renders the board fairly useless when the only use of most people's voice seems to be "Am not" and "Are too".
I've been here off and on almost three years. Ducks and emperors come and go. In some ways many here have some aspect of a duck or emperor themselves. Most here are also pretty good at spotting a duck or an emperor's wardrobe.
What if most everyone saw a duck and chose to ignore it, as it was fairly harmless when left alone and there is some chance it may have been trying to become less duck like but in a somewhat clumsy or ineffective way? Maybe it wasn't and was only seeking attention. Either way., maybe the solution of pointing repeatedly at the duck who may or may not have been trying to change was more damaging to the board and others than just leaving the duck be. The world is full of ducks and unless the duck is predatory in a way this alleged duck was not I wonder what good to others comes from standing on the corner telling all and sundry "there's a big mean duck in denial quacking over there" and repeatedly telling the duck itself to stop quacking.
My own personal preference is, please allow me to spot the ducks myself. If I and others seem to not realize someone is a duck how about giving us the benefit of the doubt that we may actually suspect it is a duck but are using a different method to approach it or might actually have the wisdom to know that ignoring it is the best course? Perhaps one should also consider that it is possible to be mistaken about the duckiness of others. And if anyone is persuaded that this is a dangerous duck who must be stopped how about warning people quietly through PMs or by contacting the duck warden rather than taking it upon oneself to publicly drive ducks in denial to change or leave?
Adult conflict with a resolution is fine. This has taken on the nature of an endless schoolyard taunting contest that resumes every time the bell rings and everyone is back out on the playground, complete with ratting to the teacher and the open formation of teams and cliques.
A pox on both houses; I've got better things to do.
mud
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I am done. Life is too short to waste my time with all this. See you next year.
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Mud,
You always have the option of not posting, not reading, not visiting the forum at all, or of starting other threads to talk about other topics, if you wish.
Other people are saying 'just let it go', so that it what I'm saying to you.
People can discuss it if they want.
Other people can NOT discuss it if they want.
Janet
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Great post, Mudpuppy. A breath of fresh air.
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Thank you,Mud Ami
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Heh...
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Turns out I don't have anything better to do for one final post on this subject.
Thank you,Mud Ami
Ami, I said you may very well be a duck in denial who is merely seeking attention and I declared a pox on your house. So what's to thank?
Heh...
A little schoolyard sarcasm, par for the course.
And Janet invites me to go sit in the classroom with the asthmatic nerds during recess since I don't want to sharpen up my spear and join either clique that has taken over the schoolyard.
Good idea, think I'll go reread Lord of the Flies. Anyone got an extra inhaler?
mud
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It actually is not MUCH to thank BUT it beats a lynch mob.(lol)
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Turns out I don't have anything better to do for one final post on this subject.
Thank you,Mud Ami
Ami, I said you may very well be a duck in denial who is merely seeking attention and I declared a pox on your house. So what's to thank?
Heh...
A little schoolyard sarcasm, par for the course.
And Janet invites me to go sit in the classroom with the asthmatic nerds during recess since I don't want to sharpen up my spear and join either clique that has taken over the schoolyard.
Good idea, think I'll go reread Lord of the Flies. Anyone got an extra inhaler?
mud
I'm sooo sorry Mud but...... lol.....
::sobering up::
wait... wait... lol.....
::standing up straight::
I do think "sharpening spears" is a tad strong....?
And here...
you forgot your spectacles. ::nod::
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I do think "sharpening spears" is a tad strong....?
That's what's known as a metaphor.
We nerds easily grasp big concepts like that.
And here...
you forgot your spectacles. ::nod::
:wheez: Thanks for not stepping on them first :wheez:.
mud
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I see you are too near-sighted to discern that in fact she actually has stepped on them first.
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I do think "sharpening spears" is a tad strong....?
That's what's known as a metaphor.
We nerds easily grasp big concepts like that.
And here...
you forgot your spectacles. ::nod::
:wheez: Thanks for not stepping on them first :wheez:.
mud
Oh crap..... Iphi's righ, Mud.
::attempting to affect self righteousness posture with just the right touch of sanctimony::
NO LAUGHING!