Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lissie_lou on June 14, 2004, 12:33:01 AM
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Just a quick question:
Is it unusual for an N who is 'grandiose' and thinks extremely highly of themselves to lose sense of dress? That they just can't be bothered to dress nicely? 'Cos that's what has happened with my dad - he just doesn't care about what he wears and won't dress well unless mum puts out the clothes for him etc...
Anyways - this board is so helpful and supportive!
Luv Liss xoxoxo
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Hi Lissie,
IMHO, this might just be the "6 yr old boy" inside of your dad rearing his "take care of me damn it wife" head. Maybe its not that he doesnt care what he looks like, maybe its just a matter of putting your mom at his beck and call AGAIN.
N are not good at making decisions. Heck, if he has to think of what he needs to wear for the day, precious time bossing you all around would be lost. I personally feel that N are unmotivated and their butts drag on everything. Picking out an outfit, pffffft, heck why would he if your mum would do it for him?
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Hi Lissie Lou
Yes, guest is right because that's exactly how my N father-in-law kept tabs on his wife. From the minute she got out of bed in the morning she had to attend to him. She was a classic enabler and said that if she didn't pick out his clothes he would end up wearing something very odd, which of-course he would do deliberately if she wasn't there to help him...
You seem to be on the right track Lissie. You say (in your other post) that you get along well with your Mum. Have you shared your latest insights with her? I ask this because my three kids (the youngest being around your age when I found out about narcissim) and I pulled together and helped each other as we dealt with my soon-to-be ex N husband and their father. I'm not saying you have to help her or even share your discovery with her, but if you think she is a victim here as well, you might find some strength together. I know this is ganging up on him, but with a true N, you need all the help you can get, even when you leave home. My eldest daughter is still a little vulnerable to her father's demands, but with the rest of us backing her up she finds it easier to repel him.
Good Luck with your HSC!
Karin (in WA).
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Yeah that is interesting - he just can't be bothered to do anything that is sort of 'everyday'. We built a new house 3 years ago and STILL it the outside areas haven't been finished. Dad, insisting on saving money said he would do the garden himself. Well - 3 years later, it is only just being finished due to mum's frustration resulting in paying someone else to do it. And of course, he was NOT happy...
He tends to start a job with such motivation and enthusiasm, but it only lasts for a few days if that, and then he can't be bothered to finish it. Very spontaneous...
He is like a kid; that will unwrap all the birthday presents he receives but won't clean up all the wrapping paper afterwards.
What frustrates me heaps is when we are sitting down at the dinner table and we have guests, and if the conversation isn't revolving around him or something he is interested in, he literally sits there and turns his head away...looking out the window etc... It amazes me it really does. And I think I would fall off my seat if I ever saw him help clear away the dishes!
Yeah Mum knows about this condition - in fact, she only admitted to me yesterday that she knew he had it about 2 years ago. she just never told me because she was worried I wouldn't understand or would stress heaps etc. I don't think she has coped very well in how to deal with him; only from the point that I realise now that one should never argue with an N or disagree with him. But Mum really struggles to just let Dad win all the time. It is SOOOO hard to accept that they CAN'T REASON like we do; that Dad can't and will never be able to think of other people's point of view... So yeah I think Mum has felt heaps better that I know now and we can support each other and keep each other from going insane!
Thanks once again - feeling ever so encouraged by such kind and helpful words from people here xoxo
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lissie lou,
It isn't really fair on you to be your mother's confidante and support against your father. Your mother is a grownup and she is supposed to be dealing with her problems without resorting to her children as "partners in misery." It's not going to help you in the long run, seriously. I am continuing to wonder why she remains married to this narcissistic man when it seems like a truly miserable deal for her.
bunny
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Hi Lissie,
I just want to second what Bunny said. It's not healthy when parents encourage a child to be involved in their problems. You shouldn't have to support her.
Your dad starting projects and then not finishing them sounds like my N mom. She'll do things like paint half of a room and then not get back to it for years, or rip up the floor tile in the bathroom and buy new tile but never get around to actually putting it in. Your dad getting upset when someone else finishes his unfinished projects is also something my M did! She would get behind on doing housework, but then if my dad or I did it, she'd accuse us of doing it to make her feel guilty! (it was our house too! We had to live there too!)
You're exactly right - Ns can't reason like other people do! I spent a long time trying to understand my mom's logic, but now I know that I never will be able to because it is so different from mine. Recognizing that and accepting it is a huge step!
I really get a sense of co-dependency in your family. That's why your mother stays with him even though it's so bad.
Take care,
Yuki
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Lissie Lou,
Just to clarify, of-course you should not be a confidante to your mother's marriage problems, she's responsible for that and does not involve you.
I don't see how (in my or your post) it was implied that you are or should be her confidante or support system??
You share a common problem with your mother, that being your narcissistic father. How he deals with you concerns her because she is also your parent and she has a responsibility to look after you, ie. you don't have to look after her. But I think you know that.
Take care,
Karin
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Lissie Lou --
Yeah Mum knows about this condition - in fact, she only admitted to me yesterday that she knew he had it about 2 years ago. she just never told me because she was worried I wouldn't understand or would stress heaps etc. I don't think she has coped very well in how to deal with him; only from the point that I realise now that one should never argue with an N or disagree with him. But Mum really struggles to just let Dad win all the time. It is SOOOO hard to accept that they CAN'T REASON like we do; that Dad can't and will never be able to think of other people's point of view... So yeah I think Mum has felt heaps better that I know now and we can support each other and keep each other from going insane!
The concern I have in reading your comment above is that it sounds as though you and your Mum, now that you understand your Dad is an N, seem to have the idea that naming his behavior somehow excuses it -- that he can't help it, and that it's up to you to accommodate him.
In my opinion, this is not healthy. You should be able to live a normal life, without you and your Mum tip-toeing around your Dad.
I hope you'll follow the advice given elsewhere to seek counselling, and suggest that your Mum look into this as well. I know you said she is embarrassed to admit things aren't perfect, but I think it would help both of you a lot.
Warm wishes to both of you.
Morgan
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Whoa I'm sorry, I'm getting quite confused...
Firstly - I don't think I'm a confidante to Mum? I feel like we're best friends, and we can share a lot together. I don't expect Mum to deal with this without me being there - we're in the same family together, the same house together everyday... So naturally I share what she's going through and vice versa because a lot of it is the same?
But I'm also confused about:
The concern I have in reading your comment above is that it sounds as though you and your Mum, now that you understand your Dad is an N, seem to have the idea that naming his behavior somehow excuses it -- that he can't help it, and that it's up to you to accommodate him.
If Dad can't reason anything - can't empathise with our points of view etc, then what is the point of stating what we think or getting annoyed when he will never come to accept that he may be wrong??? If he won't accommodate us, then shouldn't we to him?
I'm in the middle of my final year at school, and doing well is terribly important to me - so Mum and I know that we've both got to stick it out at least until the end of the year in order to avoid any disruptions. We have also built a new house, it's about 3 years old, so we can possibly sell that and then go our separate ways with Dad at the end of the year.
But another thing really pulls at my heart - if Mum and I won't stick around, no one will. What happens if God is planning to do a miracle in his life and Mum and I just leave. Dad would NOT be able to cope at all - I don't even want to imagine what he would be if we left. We are the last bit of hope for him... And I would feel guilty for the rest of my life for leaving him... He's my dad - if I left, I seriously wonder if he'd be ruined....
Confusion!!
I really get a sense of co-dependency in your family. That's why your mother stays with him even though it's so bad.
Financially dependent yes - but Mum is the kind of person who can make it on her own. She's always done everything without Dad 'cos he is so incapable of doing anything himself, besides earning a living which keeps us there.... Hmmm....
Thanks heaps
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Lissie Lou,
I'm sure you're going to get a lot of advice and there will be people who will explain things to you far better than I can about the nature of a Narcissist.
You're right, you can't argue with your father; he won't accomodate you. But that does not mean that he gets to rule your life. You love him, he's your Dad and that's fine, but that does not give him any rights over you or your mother. You were not put on this planet to serve him regardless of whether he has a disorder or not. You (and your mother) have the same rights that he does. The right to live your life the way you want, and not under some obligation that he has deemed.
One of the narcissist's best weapon is to feign helplessness, designed to keep those near at their beck and call. You'd be surprised how well in fact he would survive without you and your mother. He would fuss and panic for a while, but his life would go on. Another one is to foster guilt.
You know that you are not responsible for your mother, and you are certainly not responsible for your father either; he's a grown man for goodness sake.
Please, please Lissie, don't under-estimate the damage that a N can do, or even how much he has already done to you and your mother. It worries me that you think that there might be a miracle. There won't be.
Sorry to sound so dramatic, please keep reading and learning about N's. They'll destroy your soul, if you let them.
Karin.
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Lissie,
I know you do not know my character nor would you know me if you passed me on the street. I want to talk to you from the heart and I hope that what I am about to say will not hurt your feelings; my hope is that you give this some consideration and thought.
Lissie, I have three children that I gave birth to as well as 1 daughter I gained through my N relationship. I am a woman as well as a mother. I love my kids with all of my being and I feel we have a wonderful relationship and we can talk about anything. My children know that I am a very nonjudgmental person so they feel comfortable talking with me. I have talked to my girls about everything that life could possibly throw at ya. I mean we have talked about sex in a very candid, open, and educational manner. I being the one who was educated by my kids at times, lol, times change my dear and at times ole mom didn’t know the lingo the kids were talking, so they filled me in. My point being that my kids have always felt comfortable coming to me with any issue they might question or anything they want to talk about, they feel free to do so.
With that said, I will also tell you that NEVER and I mean NEVER, did I cross those lines with my children. As a mother I am 100% there for my children but as a woman, they know nothing of my business and I would never ever consider sharing anything with them about my personal life outside of being their mom. I went through some horrific times with my N and I went out of my way to protect my children from seeing or knowing anything about his disorder.
As a mom it is my responsibility to draw the boundary lines with me and my children. Yes I feel we are friends, but my number one priority is to love, protect, and nurture my children. It is not my responsibility to inform them of my every day events as a woman. I have always prided myself about how I conducted myself as a single woman with 3 children. I NEVER brought my dates around my children. My kids didn’t even know I dated until many years later. The kids would go with my ex husband every other weekend and 2 nights during the week. That was when the mother could let her hair down to do what ever she wanted to and that is exactly what I did. I never blurred that line between my responsibilities to my children and my life as a single woman.
Your mother has blurred those lines I believe. Yes you do live with your mother and you see the interactions between her and your dad so I can understand where you are coming from. However, for your mother to discuss anything with you about her and your dad, I feel this is an invasion of your emotional and mental capacity. Your mother is giving you access to areas that are not healthy emotionally or mentally for you. Despite your dad’s flaws, he is still your father. Every little girl dreams of having a father who picks them up and twirls them through life. Every little girl dreams of being daddy's little girl. Those hopes and dreams can be with you forever. Many girls become sexually permissive as a result of a lack of their fathers attention. You are already realizing that your father has some issues with his role as a dad. I just think that your issues might be compounded because of your mother blurring the lines of a parent child relationship.
If she needs someone to confide with, perhaps a friend or a counselor would suit her better. You are that mans daughter as well as hers so the fact that you have become her confidant is really inappropriate. She should not blur those lines of motherhood and a womanly relationship. Emotionally she is invading your precious space. Believe me Hun, when you go through your life after dealing with a N, every ounce of space that you have emotionally is needed to cope with the damage they have inflicted. I just feel that your mother is not being fair to you by emotionally depleting your resources.
I am not saying that she shouldn’t share information about N; I am just saying that I don’t feel she should share her life as a wife to your father with you. Perhaps your father has alienated your mother from friends and family. Maybe that’s why she has drawn you in as a confidant, but that still does not make it right.
Lissie, do you ever go to bed and lay for hours trying to process all of the information that your mother has presented to you? Do you ever dream of what your life will be like when you become a wife? Do you ever ponder how much you are going to share with your children?? If you never dream of your life as a wife or dream of your children, perhaps it is because your mind is to busy trying to process all of your mothers events as a wife and a mother.
If you can’t dream of your future Lissie, you have resigned to settling for the present. There is so much out there in life. As a mother it is my responsibility and it is my privilege to encourage my children to dream and reach for the stars when it comes to their futures. I would never think stunting their growth emotionally or spiritually by burdening them with my emotional bulk.
Be a great daughter Lissie, being a great friend to your mother is not your responsibility. Be there for her as a daughter, do not bear her emotional pain beyond that because eventually it could snuff out your hopes and dreams for your future.
Sincerely,
Mindy (Jaded)
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Mindy, what a great Mum you are. I wish you had been mine! Want to adopt a 42 year old? :D Big hug.
Liss, you're a very caring and coping young woman. I just wish you were having 'normal' fun with your friends (when you're not studying) instead of worrying about this very adult stuff. You have enough to think about with your studies - they're so important! This is the time of your life when you are expected to be selfish (not a bad thing), because you have every right to be, the rest of your life depends to some extent on the choices you make now. Think of yourself, please! Hug, P
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Hi again Lissie,
I know you've got a lot to think about already.
A lot of us seem to be picking up on something between you and your mother. I know she's your best friend and you two are very close... and I'm sure that your father being a N made you need her even more. You're going through a difficult time now and you still need her support.
The difficult truth is that in order for your relationship with your father to become more healthy, your relationship with your mother will probably have to become more healthy too. I hope this doesn't sound like an attack against your mother or your relationship with her. But there are elements in your relationship with her that are unhealthy. I know how hard this can be to hear and to believe - I've been there!! I think it's just little things we're hearing in how you talk about her - that the two of you are a team, that you're there for each other, that she's your best friend. Like she's a peer. Your father has been so obviously the problem for so long that it probably looks like he is "the problem." Instead... it's your family system that's unhealthy. He's a BIG part of that, of course. But he is not 100% of it. I'm not saying that you should blame your mother... I'm saying there is something unhealthy about how your family works.
I hear your guilt about abandoning your father. You feel that he'd be crushed if you left him. Your guilt and feeling that you need to take care of him is a product of your unhealthy family system. It's co-dependency. Unhealthy emotional boundaries. I can tell you are a very kind, caring person. :) And that's a good thing. But when that kindness gets mixed up with guilt and dependency it's unhealthy - not just for you but for the people you care for too.
If I may suggest this... now that you've done the research on narcissism and identified what's going on with your dad... maybe look into some other things like co-dependency and poor boundaries and enmeshment. See if maybe some of those things fit too.
Yuki
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:( Feeling quite confused...
The last thing I ever considered to be unstable or wrong is my relationship with my mother...
Seems to be like a whole new dimension of messed up life that I never knew existed...
Forgive me if I don't write or come back here for a while - I feel like it's doing me more harm and disturbing me at the moment than good. I came to seek advice and understanding of my N Dad and now there is an issue with my mother as well; the person whom I look up to and trust the most...
Sorry if I'm sounding over dramatic or anything - I don't mean it to be that way at all. Just feel, quite...odd...
xoxo
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Hey Lissie,
It's understandable if you need to take a break. You've got other important things to focus on right now, like school. It's ok to put this aside and take care of other things - this will still be here for you to come back to when you chose to. Now may be a bad time to make big changes in your life.
Things get worse before they get better when you're dealing with big, emotional issues like this. Something that seems like a minor issue can actually be major once you get into it. You scratch the surface and realize there's a whole lot more under there than it looked like.
Ultimately, it's up to you to decide how far you want to dig into it, and when, and what kind of changes you want to make in your life.
I HATED the first person who told me that my mother and I had an unhealthy relationship and needed some space from each other. I was extremely angry! I wrote in my diary about how wrong that person was, because I believed that I would fall apart completely wtihout my mother. It can be very hard to see something from a different perspective when you are so close to it and it's all you've ever known for you whole life. I really think you've handled hearing all of this from us very well - much better than I did. :) Ultimately, it's for you to decide what to believe and what to do.
You don't sound overdramatic. This is major stuff. When I first started looking at some of these issues in my own life, I felt like my whole world had been turned upside down.
Take care, I'm sorry that this is so confusing and hard for you.
Yuki
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I've been trying to identify what it is about this thread that disturbs me so much.
I've come to the conclusion that Lissie was not listened to and words were put in her mouth.
I'm outta here, thanks Dr G and to all those who actually do listen, because only then is a response valid.
Karin.
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Hey Karin, :) thanks for saying what you have above.
I'm slightly bothered by Liss's two threads because of her younger age. The experiences must be a lot to take in at 17. Too much I would imagine.
But I'm unhappy that you are disturbed as you say above. This is about you. You don't have to leave. You can take your space here, talk about it. All voices have their place here. Whether they are 'listening' voices, advising from experience, shouting, whatever. I would hate to think that anyone felt they were silenced, I imagine everyone here feels at least similar about that?...gosh Karin, please don't feel you have to go, you have a place here, we all do...don't we???
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I feel badly about how this has turned out. I'm staring at my screen, not knowing what to say. I don't even know if Karin felt that I did something wrong. I'm not sure what, specifically, she was refering to.
I think we're all here to learn and grow. We're all in the middle of a learning process. It's not always going to go smoothly... but we can talk about it and learn from it.
Everyone has a voice here. All of our voices are valid.
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Yuki, want a hug? (((((Yuki)))))
Karin too (((((Karin)))))
Yuki, I don't know what Karin means exactly. But I'm not going to read all the posts and put my interpretation on it because that still won't tell me what Karin thinks!
I just reacted to Karin being disturbed. I hope you come back Karin and talk about it. You've a great voice here. :D
Yuki, you've got a great voice too. :D
And I talk far too much. :D :arrow:
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I've been trying to identify what it is about this thread that disturbs me so much.
I've come to the conclusion that Lissie was not listened to and words were put in her mouth.
I'm outta here, thanks Dr G and to all those who actually do listen, because only then is a response valid.
Karin.
Hm. I think she was listened to very closely. Unfortunately some of the feedback wasn't what she was prepared for. When posting on the internet, this happens because one asks for feedback and can't control what the feedback is. Hopefully there's a silver lining and what happened will lead her to some therapist that will help her through her family situation.
bunny
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I think we're all here to learn and grow. We're all in the middle of a learning process. It's not always going to go smoothly... but we can talk about it and learn from it.
Everyone has a voice here. All of our voices are valid.
Well said.
I think the problem was that I questioned her mother's behavior; others added their thoughts to this. It was hard on the two posters to hear about mothers enabling a narcissistic husband and not protecting their kids. In fact it was traumatic. The reaction was an implication that we are the bad parents who traumatize children. That's okay as long as we can not take it personally. It shocked me at first to read it, but now I'm moving ahead.
bunny
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I appreciated your posts bunny. Hugs all round from me ((((bunny))))
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Hi All,
If anything, I think the posters were very protective of Lissie and wanted to make sure she didn't take on an adult's cares and problems which were inappropriate for her age. We've all been there dealing with Ns and their enablers.
I hope she does get on with HER life and HER studies. I wish I had the opportunity to just be a kid and do what kids are supposed to do. I'm still fighting for my own identity in the world at the ripe old age of 46.
It will just take time (maybe a lot of time) for Lissie to process all that she read.
MM
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Ns have a distorted view of themselves and the world around them, right? Their enablers do too... they often don't see the N or the damage the N is doing clearly.
Some of the things Lissie said sounded to me like her parents' distortions and denial. NOT her own feelings or clear view of the situation. Which is of course to be expected from a 17 year old who has lived with a N and the N's enabler for her whole life! I actually thought she saw her father with remarkable clarity and it sounded like she already had a pretty good grasp on what his narcissism was all about. But I thought that her parents had put her into an unhealthy role in the family, and that she believed her family's distortions about what was normal and what was healthy.
I think part of the problem was that there were a few different levels of reality going on. The reality about herself and her family that Lissie believed. And the reality of her family that some of us saw. I think Karin may have been reacting to the fact that some of us were rejecting Lissie's "reality" about her family and were instead talking about the "reality" of her family that we believed instead.
I know Lissie came here to talk about her father and instead we started talking about something else that she wasn't prepared to talk about. I feel badly for her because of that. But I also think it would have been a disservice to her to not talk about what the real problem in her life was.
Karin had mentioned something about having been married to a N and getting through it with her own kids, I believe. So maybe us talking about the mother's role in the situation made her feel attacked. But we're all here because we've been under the thumb of a N at some point in our lives, right? We've probably all been enablers to some degree... We know it's not about being wrong or being to blame or being a bad person. It's about being emotionally healthy and setting healthy boundaries.
Portia, thanks for your kind words. :)
Yuki
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One reason I was interested in this thread is that I have often wished that when I was 17 (or so) someone had talked to me honestly about the unhealthy dynamic in my family. It's possible that, like Lissie, I would have rejected the suggestion that my mother's practice of confiding in me and treating me like an ally against my father was unhealthy and poor parenting on her part. But at least it might have planted the seed, and maybe it wouldn't have taken me another 15 or so years to start to question my relationship with her.
IMO, 17 is old enough to start thinking independently of your parents. I think the posters here were as careful as they could be in couching their comments in a kindly way, without being dishonest, which I don’t think would have been helpful to Lissie or anyone else.
Morgan