Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on December 17, 2007, 02:37:51 PM
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It struck me..... recently there have been voices that spoke out, bravely.... not bc they wanted to.... but bc they felt an obligation to speak the truth, as they saw it.... to strive for clarity and resolution.
Some voices speak out bc someone's sitting on their chest and they're moved to..... in order to release the pressure. Not speaking about the board, lest you think I am here.
I think, on the whole.... that's a double edged sword...... the speaking out.
If you speak up, you're accused of having an agenda that doesn't include clarity and resolution. You might take incoming fire you can't handle or actually get injured in any miriad of ways.
Like that's some crime..... to have an agenda that isn't about.... oh well... I can't think of anyone like that so... I'll speak about my 3-d life and a book I tried to read not long ago.
If you don't speak up, you feel like you've left those brave enough to strive for clarity and resolution, hanging.
There are people in the world who have no regard whatsovever for the truth... and they thrive everywhere.
6 out of 20 or something like that? Makes sense when I look around and see so much conflict and confusion around me.
In the courts, in the workplace, on public forums, in family and at church.
I've learned a couple things since coming to this board.
One was about bringing unrelenting pressure to bear, to maximum ability.... on those who will do nothing but lie, cheat, scapegoat, gaslight and manipulate the emotions and social structure around them to get their way, which never makes any sense, but they're committed, nonetheless.
Thank you Mud for driving that point home...... it's starting to sink in but the desire to shy away is so strong sometimes.... you know it's a struggle.
The other thing I've learned is that NC is preferred over contact.... if you can swing it.
There's no serenity when manipulators are about.
The one thing you can count on.... is strife and confusion.
It follows them like a cloud..... and they're not necessarily still standing there when the cloud hits.... so it doesn't always appear that the cloud's anything to do with them. :shock: And they're finger pointing, plausible possible causes that certainly seem to make sense about what other possible causes might be involved.
I'm at an impasse as to what to do with the ongoing contact.... where NC isn't going to be possible.
::shaking head::
My own private personal little battle being waged, dont'cha know?
I'm trying to remember back to the book... "THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR" was that the correct title?
The Doctor who was dismissed, on a psych ward? for sabotaging, or trying to sabotage rather, another doctor patient relationship..... bc she was enviouse of the other doc?
It ended up that she stuck her foot in it, bc the patient trusted his doc enough that he told on that bad bad sociopathic doctor (who somehow ended up in a position of trust and authority over vulnerable people.) :shock:
She was investigated and found to be lying about her background and ya know what?
Her employers didn't want to make a fuss.
They didn't want to draw attention.
They didn't want to hold her accountable and they sure didn't want her to face any consequences beyond losing her job. (read that as distancing themselves quietly bc.... bc why?) ::sigh::
Because she's a nightmare walking and nobody wants to deal with a nightmare walking.... esp one that could cost you lawsuits and bad publicity. ::shudder::
So, she's out there in the world, bright, educated, predatory and needful..... with ambition and determination to do whatever it takes to TAKE what she's feels she's entitled to from anyone she feels like taking it from.
No doubt the next problem she creates will be swept under the carpet, geivances ignored and innocent people pretty much injured but what the hell?
At least she's out of our hair and that's all that matters.
It's like playing hot potato.... but different.
I'm just rambling now.... for no apprarent destination.
This all comes to mind bc when I tried to deal with domestic violence, with a felony keystroke device put on my pc, with fraud and forged documents.....
what kind of response do you think it received?
::sweep sweep sweep:: Don't mean nothin.....
So much easier to ignore and blame the victim, than draw fire from the loud annoying flamboyant gaslighter who's bent on winning the game, no matter the cost.... and he's got plenty ability to pay while I'm struggling to raise children and stay focused on what's important.... serenity for my children.
My serenity wasn't a factor, a consideration.... it was a given that it wasn't. Even at $500.00 an hour and let me tell ya.... you can't buy better hand tying helpers than that, not in this State anyway.
Did I fall down and go to pieces, sleep with someone who might make a difference and at least act like they cared if I pimped myself, lol?
Did I get loud and make gross accusations as to the integrity and actions of my $500.00 an hour poopey head attorney?
Did I fall on my knees and refuse to leave the building until someone would hear me..... let me be understood oh please oh please....
It's all a game and it's a sick, unhealthy bad bad bad game.
No matter where you're playing it..... or what you're playin for.
Being a grownup sucks :x
But ya know what? The most fulfilling satisfying thing about is......
that I know.....
without a doubt.....
that.....
my two little bobbins.....
are watching and learning what I model for them.
And if I can make peace with my God and my obligation as sane rational parent.... then it doesn't really matter who gets away with what.
That's MY reason for letting it go.
Of course, if I manage to raise well adjusted children to become rational thinking adults who know the difference between right and wrong.....
what the hell are they gonna do when faced with the 6 out of 20?
You don't just find serenity.... you find a reason to lay down the fight and whew! It really sucked anyway, eh? You find a reason..... to give away what you're rightfully entitled to and walk away.
Oh that's right..... IF you can walk away.
And I'm back to that niggling circular thinkin.
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edited
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Lighter,
your eloquent post described a few people in my life to a TEE. Wounding people, getting away with it, :sweep sweep sweep. YUP! Thank you for putting it in PRINT!
~Laura
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There's no serenity when manipulators are about.
Oy, Lighter. I know.
I feel as though that's The Big Lesson. When I used to go to Vespers once a week and sit quietly amid Serious Meditators, I thought I was learning a tiny piece of it.
Manipulators will ALWAYS be about.
So if we don't want to resign ourselves to lives without serenity, what choice do we have but to learn internal boundaries to protect ourselves?
I often think of peace and justice activists, and how they can tolerate protesting, civilly, over and over, facing implacable monoliths constructed to deny the evil that some within them perpetrate. I am awed. I have always been chicken about putting myself on the line like that. Yet...I know activists who seem to enjoy their lives of protest. Some are chronically angry and upset, others are nearly beatific.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in between and is just going to ebb and flow. Maybe this is rehearsal for setting boundaries (or tilting at windmills, or abandoning hopeless causes) in our 3-D lives.
love
Hops
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My work of human rights campaigner is quiet and dignified, in a similar vein to that of my dear friend, Dreamsinger.
Writing letters, tirelessing, and fundraising, earnestly.
I am but a small gentle link in a big effective chain as we work and pull together as a communicative team.
This week a national organisation celebrates publically, at the news of a new important turnaround for the benefit of battered women and children.
Much quiet gentle rejoicing in the hearts of many quiet gentle souls who have courageously stood up with dignity and integrity to bring about change and freedom in the lives of those who are in real genuine suffering, worldwide too.
Making a difference never did require shouting from the rooftops -- thankfully, as I do not have a loud voice.
Love to ((( all )))
Leah
PS> lovely to be able to share this news.
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Hmmmm. Leah.
You have me thinking here.
I'm used to9 popping women on their knoggins......
pushing them past their fear and physical thresholds......
in order to teach them how to help themselves.
They think they're helpless.....
they're not.
They fear they're vulnerable.
They are.
My rejoicing doesn't become quiet and still until the banging and shouting's over.
Then it's time for a beer back at the monestary,lol.
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keep them from making me crazy, not let them into my "universe", if possible. It's not always possible, so I've tried to find ways of dealing with them that minimizes their impact on me... so that I'm "immune".
Shunned...... What ways work for you? What tools help you deal with them.... minimize them..... their impact on your life?
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Dear Lighter,
As I mentioned before, you are you, and that is just fine, and we are us, and that is just fine too.
We are all unique individuals, with our own hearts and souls, we different, not cloned.
That's a big difference.
I have never drunk beer, and I have never been to a monastery.
However, I do have my very own independent voice, which I treasure.
Love, Leah
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One was about bringing unrelenting pressure to bear, to maximum ability.... on those who will do nothing but lie, cheat, scapegoat, gaslight and manipulate the emotions and social structure around them to get their way, which never makes any sense, but they're committed, nonetheless.
Just a comment. When some one does all those things mentioned above, that person might have a personality disorder.
According to my book, (the one recommended by Observer, that I am still studying, 700 pages) what good does it do to me to try to talk to a wall?
That would be equal to again expect my M to love me the way I would have wanted. That is not going to happen.
I dont know if I am making any sense. Just thinking.
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There's no serenity when manipulators are about.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in between and is just going to ebb and flow. Maybe this is rehearsal for setting boundaries (or tilting at windmills, or abandoning hopeless causes) in our 3-D lives.
love
Hops
Once you've abandoned all hopeless cause..... what's left to abandon?
The rest looks pretty necessary to me: /
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Ya know.... something was buggin me about this post, Leah..... what in the world were you trying to say to this human being, on her thread about herself..... that seemed like it needed to be said on her thread about herself?
I'm asking for clarification, thanks.
My work of human rights campaigner is quiet and dignified, in a similar vein to that of my dear friend, Dreamsinger.
Writing letters, tirelessing, and fundraising, earnestly.
I am but a small gentle link in a big effective chain as we work and pull together as a communicative team.
This week a national organisation celebrates publically, at the news of a new important turnaround for the benefit of battered women and children.
Much quiet gentle rejoicing in the hearts of many quiet gentle souls who have courageously stood up with dignity and integrity to bring about change and freedom in the lives of those who are in real genuine suffering, worldwide too.
Making a difference never did require shouting from the rooftops -- thankfully, as I do not have a loud voice.
Love to ((( all )))
Leah
PS> lovely to be able to share this news.
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It's all fun and games.....
till somebody loses an eye...
or a newbie...
or board reg, who offered something of value.
Hey.... I'm prefacing this post with the lighthearted suggestion that anyone who's over my traipsing around bumping into people, things and doctors.... the conflict.... the neverending posting about things best left unsaid.... or just generally sick to death of me, as I almost again, myself.... just skip it and save us all the trouble.
I feel like I'm banging around the board..... looking for something that's just not there.
If a Doctor who specializes in giving victims their voices back.... can't keep the sociopaths (however small and non giant in stature they may be) from crunching their happy way through the board....
ACK... I'm moved to song....
"If you ever awake
In the mirror of a bad dream
And for a fraction of a second,
You can't remember where you are
Just open your window
And follow your memories
Upstream
To the meadow in the mountain
Where we counted every falling star
I believe the light that shines on you
Will shine on you forever
(forever)
And though I can't guaruntee there's nothing scary
Hidin' under your bed
I'm gonna
Stand guard
Like the postcard
Of the golden retriever
And never leave
'Til I leave you
With a sweet dream in your head
[CHORUS]
I'm gonna watch you shine
Gonna watch you grow
Gonna paint a sign
So you always know
As long as one and one is two
Ooh ooh
There could never be a father
Love his daughter more than I love you
Trust your intuition
It's just like going fishin'
You cast your line and
Hope you get a bite
But you don't need to waste your time
Worryin' about the marketplace
Trying to help the human race
Struggling to survive
It's as harsh as night"
Ahhh...::wiping mouth::.. that was ugly.
Lesson to self:
In an unfair world where mother's emotionally consume their children.... physically break them and worse.....
where people cruise the highway looking for opportunity to present itself....
you're likely to meet the same or similar force at the grocery store, at your child's school, through a dating service, on the internet, smiling at you with flowers at the door..... waiting to take you or your teen aged child on a first date.
The only barrier can be.....
common sense and appropriate boundaries. Maybe proactive filling up the tank..... being mindful about how we approach each day.
Trusting your instincts and believing people when they show you who they are.
Shying away and hoping they go after someone with weaker boundaries so they stop nosing around you?
::gulp::
Survival of the fittest. ::nodding fast::
If anyone wants to learn from other people's insights or lessons, pick up a self help book... read up on your hisotry, perhaps.
Pointing out lessons learned in the present.... eh... not such a good idea.
Lessons are best learned in the abstract. ::n odding::
The concrete business of communicating valid information in an appropriate fashion, for the right reasons, with the proper, if still elusive, words..... so that you aren't attacked and put on the defense, accused of BEING exactly what you're pointing out.....
is thankless head thunking stuff best left to......
history books.... ::nodding:: Awful stuff for the INFP's, I'm afraid... but necessary I suppose.
But Typhoid Mary wasn't left in the kitchen, in the history books, was she?
At the hospital.
Preparing food on the maternity ward where the vulnerable were being harmed, despite her intentions, which weren't evil.
Or were they?
Someone pointed and stepped up and challenged her wrong thinking.... though I'm sure she died quite certain she wasn't any more responsible for the harm she caused than the man in the moon.
I've babbled on about her quite a bit so..... here's her story. I thought it was interesting.
Typhoid Mary
From Jennifer Rosenberg,
Your Guide to 20th Century History.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
Mary Mallon seemed a healthy woman when a health inspector knocked on her door in 1907, yet she was the cause of several typhoid outbreaks. Since Mary was the first "healthy carrier" of typhoid fever in the United States, she did not understand how someone not sick could spread disease -- so she tried to fight back.
After a trial and then a short run from health officials, Mary was recaptured and forced to live in relative seclusion upon North Brother Island off New York. Who was Mary Mallon and how did she spread typhoid fever?
An Investigation
For the summer of 1906, New York banker Charles Henry Warren wanted to take his family on vacation. They rented a summer home from George Thompson and his wife in Oyster Bay, Long Island. Also for the summer, the Warrens hired Marry Mallon to be their cook.
On August 27, one of the Warren's daughters became ill with typhoid fever.
their daughter and two maids became ill; followed by the gardener and another Warren daughter. In total, six of the eleven people in the house came down with typhoid.
Since the common way typhoid spread was through water or food sources, the owners of the home feared they would not be able to rent the property again without first discovering the source of the outbreak. The Thompsons first hired investigators to find the cause, but they were unsuccessful.
Then the Thompsons hired George Soper, a civil engineer with experience in typhoid fever outbreaks. It was Soper who believed the recently hired cook, Mary Mallon, was the cause. Mallon had left the Warren's approximately three weeks after the outbreak. Soper began to research her employment history for more clues.
Mary Mallon was born on September 23, 1869 in Cookstown, Ireland. According to what she told friends, Mallon emigrated to America around the age of 15. Like most Irish immigrant women, Mallon found a job as a domestic servant. Finding she had a talent for cooking, Mallon became a cook, which paid better wages than many other domestic service positions.
Soper was able to trace Mallon's employment history back to 1900. He found that typhoid outbreaks had followed Mallon from job to job. From 1900 to 1907, Soper found that Mallon had worked at seven jobs in which 22 people had become ill, including one young girl who died, with typhoid fever shortly after Mallon had come to work for them.1
Soper was satisfied that this was much more than a coincidence; yet, he needed stool and blood samples from Mallon to scientifically prove she was the carrier.
Capture and Isolation
In March 1907, Soper found Mallon working as a cook in the home of Walter Bowen and his family. To get samples from Mallon, he approached her at her place of work. Having a strange man come up to you, to accuse you (who seems completely healthy) of spreading disease and of killing people and then be asked for some of your blood and excrement, well, it does seem it would make just about anybody skeptical.
I had my first talk with Mary in the kitchen of this house. . . . I was as diplomatic as possible, but I had to say I suspected her of making people sick and that I wanted specimens of her urine, feces and blood. It did not take Mary long to react to this suggestion. She seized a carving fork and advanced in my direction. I passed rapidly down the long narrow hall, through the tall iron gate, . . . and so to the sidewalk. I felt rather lucky to escape.2 This violent reaction from Mallon did not stop Soper. Soper tracked Mallon to her home. He tried to approach her again, but this time, he brought an assistant (Dr. Bert Raymond Hoobler) for support. Again, Mallon became enraged, made clear they were unwelcome and shouted expletives at them as they made a hurried departure.
Realizing it was going to take more persuasiveness than he was able to offer, Soper handed his research and hypothesis over to Hermann Biggs at the New York City Health Department. Biggs agreed with Soper's hypothesis. Biggs sent Dr. S. Josephine Baker to talk to Mallon.
Mallon, now extremely suspicious of these health officials, refused to listen to Baker, Baker returned with the aid of five police officers and an ambulance. Mallon was prepared this time. Baker describes the scene:
Mary was on the lookout and peered out, a long kitchen fork in her hand like a rapier. As she lunged at me with the fork, I stepped back, recoiled on the policeman and so confused matters that, by the time we got through the door, Mary had disappeared. 'Disappear' is too matter-of-fact a word; she had completely vanished.3 Baker and the police searched the house. Eventually, footprints were spotted leading from the house to a chair placed next to a fence. Over the fence was a neighbor's property.
They spent five hours searching both properties, until, finally, they found "a tiny scrap of blue calico caught in the door of the areaway closet under the high outside stairway leading to the front door."4
Typhoid Mary (Page 2)
From Jennifer Rosenberg,
Your Guide to 20th Century History.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
(Continued from Page 1)
Baker describes the emergence of Mallon from the closet:
She came out fighting and swearing, both of which she could do with appalling efficiency and vigor. I made another effort to talk to her sensibly and asked her again to let me have the specimens, but it was of no use. By that time she was convinced that the law was wantonly persecuting her, when she had done nothing wrong. She knew she had never had typhoid fever; she was maniacal in her integrity. There was nothing I could do but take her with us. The policemen lifted her into the ambulance and I literally sat on her all the way to the hospital; it was like being in a cage with an angry lion.5 Mallon was taken to the Willard Parker Hospital in New York. There, samples were taken and examined; typhoid bacilli was found in her stool.Sponsored Links
The health department then transferred Mallon to an isolated cottage (part of the Riverside Hospital) on North Brother Island (in the East River near the Bronx).
Can the Government Do This?
Mary Mallon was taken by force and against her will and was held without a trial. She had not broken any laws. So how could the government lock her up in isolation indefinitely?
That's not easy to answer. The health officials were basing their power on sections 1169 and 1170 of the Greater New York Charter:
The board of health shall use all reasonable means for ascertaining the existence and cause of disease or peril to life or health, and for averting the same, throughout the city. [Section 1169]
Said board may remove or cause to be removed to [a] proper place to be by it designated, any person sick with any contagious, pestilential or infectious disease; shall have exclusive charge and control of the hospitals for the treatment of such cases. [Section 1170]6
This charter was written before anyone knew of "healthy carriers" -- people who seemed healthy but carried a contagious form of a disease that could infect others. Health officials believed healthy carriers to be more dangerous than those sick with the disease because there is no way to visually identify a healthy carrier in order to avoid them. But to many, locking up a healthy person seemed wrong.
Freedom
Mary Mallon believed she was being unfairly persecuted. Wasn't she healthy? She could not understand how she could have spread disease and caused a death when she, herself, seemed healthy.
I never had typhoid in my life, and have always been healthy. Why should I be banished like a leper and compelled to live in solitary confinement with only a dog for a companion?7 In 1909, after having been isolated for two years on North Brother Island, Mallon sued the health department.
During Mallon's confinement, health officials had taken and analyzed stool samples from Mallon approximately once a week. The samples came back intermittently positive with typhoid, but mostly positive (120 of 163 samples tested positive).8 For nearly a year preceding the trial, Mallon also sent samples of her stool to a private lab where all her samples tested negative for typhoid. Feeling healthy and with her own lab results, Mallon believed she was being unfairly held.
This contention that I am a perpetual menace in the spread of typhoid germs is not true. My own doctors say I have no typhoid germs. I am an innocent human being. I have committed no crime and I am treated like an outcast -- a criminal. It is unjust, outrageous, uncivilized. It seems incredible that in a Christian community a defenseless woman can be treated in this manner.9 Mallon did not understand a lot about typhoid fever and, unfortunately, no one tried to explain it to her. Not all people have a strong bout of typhoid fever; some people can have such a weak case that they only experience flu-like symptoms. Thus, Mallon could have had typhoid fever but never known it. Though commonly known at the time that typhoid could be spread by water or food products, people who are infected by the tyhpoid bacillus could also pass the disease from their infected stool onto food via unwashed hands. For this reason, infected persons who were cooks (like Mallon) or food handlers had the most likelihood of spreading the disease.
The judge ruled in favor of the health officials and Mallon, now popularly known as "Typhoid Mary," "was remanded to the custody of the Board of Health of the City of New York."10 Mallon went back to the isolated cottage on North Brother Island with little hope of being released.
In February of 1910, a new health commissioner decided that Mallon could go free as long as she agreed never to work as a cook again. Anxious to regain her freedom, Mallon accepted the conditions. On February 19, 1910, Mary Mallon agreed that she "is prepared to change her occupation (that of cook), and will give assurance by affidavit that she will upon her release takeTyphoid Mary (Page 3)
(Continued from Page 2)
Recapture
Some people believe that Mallon never had any intention of following the health officials' rules; thus they believe Mallon had a malicious intent with her cooking. But not working as a cook pushed Mallon into service in other domestic positions which did not pay as well. Feeling healthy, Mallon still did not really believe that she could spread typhoid. Though in the beginning Mallon tried to be a laundress as well as worked at other jobs, for a reason that has not been left in any documents, Mallon eventually went back to working as a cook.
In January of 1915 (nearly five years after Mallon's release), the Sloane Maternity Hospital in Manhattan suffered a typhoid fever outbreak. Twenty-five people became ill and two of them died.
Soon, evidence pointed to a recently-hired cook, Mrs.Brown.
Mrs. Brown was really Mary Mallon, using a pseudonym.
If the public had shown Mary Mallon some sympathy during her first period of confinement because she was an unwitting typhoid carrier, all of the sympathy disappeared after her recapture. This time, Typhoid Mary knew of her healthy carrier status - even it she didn't believe it; thus she willingly and knowingly caused pain and death to her victims. Using a pseudonym made even more people feel that Mallon knew she was guilty.
Mallon was again sent to North Brother Island to live in the same isolated cottage that she had inhabited during her last confinement. For twenty-three more years, Mary Mallon remained imprisoned on the island.
The exact life she led on the island is unclear, but it is known that she helped around the hospital, gaining the title "nurse" in 1922 and then "hospital helper" sometime later. In 1925, Mallon began to help in the hospital's lab.
In December 1932, Mary Mallon suffered a large stroke that left her paralyzed. She was then transferred from her cottage to a bed in the children's ward of the hospital on the island, where she stayed until her death six years later, on November 11, 1938.
Typhoid Mary Lives On
Since Mary Mallon's death, the name "Typhoid Mary" has grown into a term disassociated from the person. Anyone who has a contagious illness can be termed, sometimes jokingly, a "Typhoid Mary." If someone changes their jobs frequently, they are sometimes referred to as a "Typhoid Mary." (Mary Mallon changed jobs frequently. Some people believed it to be because she knew she was guilty, but most probably it was because domestic jobs during the time were not long lasting service jobs.)
But why does everyone know about Typhoid Mary? Though Mallon was the first carrier found, she was not the only healthy carrier of typhoid during that time. An estimated 3,000 to 4,500 new cases of typhoid fever were reported in New York City alone and it was estimated that about three percent of those who had typhoid fever become carriers, creating 90-135 new carriers a year.
Mallon was also not the most deadly. Forty-seven illnesses and three deaths were attributed to Mallon while Tony Labella (another healthy carrier) caused 122 people to become ill and five deaths. Labella was isolated for two weeks and then released.
Mallon was not the only healthy carrier who broke the health officials' rules after being told of their contagious status. Alphonse Cotils, a restaurant and bakery owner, was told not to prepare food for other people. When health officials found him back at work, they agreed to let him go free when he promised to conduct his business over the phone.
So why is Mary Mallon so infamously remembered as "Typhoid Mary"? Why was she the only healthy carrier isolated for life? These questions are hard to answer. Judith Leavitt, author of Typhoid Mary, believes that her personal identity contributed to the extreme treatment she received from health officials. Leavitt claims that there was prejudice against Mallon not only for being Irish and a woman, but also for being a domestic servant, not having a family, not being considered a "bread earner," having a temper, and not believing in her carrier status.12
During her life, Mary Mallon experienced extreme punishment for something in which she had no control and, for whatever reason, has gone down in history as the evasive and malicious "Typhoid Mary."
Notes
1. Judith Walzer Leavitt, Typhoid Mary: Captive to the Public's Health (Boston: Beacon Press, 1996) 16-17.
2. George Soper as quoted in Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 43.
3. Dr. S. Josephine Baker as quoted in Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 46.
4. Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 46.
5. Dr. S. Josephine Baker as quoted in Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 46.
6. Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 71.
7. Mary Mallon as quoted in Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 180.
8. Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 32.
9. Mary Mallon as quoted in Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 180.
10. Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 34.
11. Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 188.
12. Leavitt, Typhoid Mary 96-125.
Bibliography
Leavitt, Judith Walzer. Typhoid Mary: Captive to the Public's Health. Boston: Beacon Press, 1996.
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such hygienic precautions as will protect those with whom she comes in contact, from infection."11 She was set free.
The world isn't fair and you can see it clearly, from several different perspectives, in Mary's case.
For what it's worth.... I'm about done asking the same questions and expecting different answers on the board: /
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Lighter.
You are the Senator Chris Dodd of this board, and I thank you for the filibuster.
I am sorry I haven't had the stamina to stand beside you.
Your imperfect approach and even your fury are cleansing and I think you may not know right away how you may have strengthened someone.
You're trying to stand for something just, and you don't have to be a perfect person to do that.
with love,
Hops
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Here's a different answer:
Let God be God.
Jeremiah 12
Carolyn
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Dear Lighter, with a stomach ache and fear of abandonement, I am going to dare to post. Take it as just a thought. I like you and I love you.
I have the impression that you are, sicking justice. That you had a bad rotten little sister, spoil bratt, and you were wrongfully punished and she never took responsibility of the actions that she was guilty of and you were wrongfullty accused. Now you are furious because again is happening, and you feel that the authority figure here (parents in the past) were unfair to you, fire crackers from the past. So when you see unjustice or something that you perceve as unjustice of that kind, it makes you furious.
I relate very much to that. It ha happend to me all my life. Now I do not even care.
You remember I was in pursue of a residency position at a hospital, I worked for free for six months, had to get a loan, still paying it, and at the end they gave it to a hindu woman wife of a hindu doctor friend of a hindu doctor who is very rich and donates millions to the University. That woman is my age and went from 20 years of housewife to medical resident. No merits, no efforts.
My sister was spoil bratt too. Assuming that I an right in what I am saying, or at least a simlar relationship or situation.
If my post bothers you, let me know please, and I will erase it.
I am sure that any professional has reasons for what they decide to do. Reasons that are beyond our understanding. But it is not the love in here. It is just administration standards that people in charge have. Just that.
I am sure that Doctor Grossman appreciates you as much as we do.
Love to you and God bless you.
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Hops and Hope.....
God is always a witness.
He sees everything and maybe your car careens down an embankment and takes out an inconspicuouse car with 3 men with a bad agenda...... and he has his reasons.
That I can make peace with. Observation mode. Been there done that.
Now.... Hops, you and I.... we are witnesses on this highway, provided by the good Dr. G.
I guess that sort of makes him the The State Road and Toll Authority herre, lol.
Anyhoo..... some people gawk their way on by, some people gesticulate and get upset there's been an accident or incident slowing them down on the way to wherever it is they're going.
Some people slow down and think.... I wonder if there's anything I can do to help here... yet drive on by, frightened by what that might mean.
Some people get out and see if anyone needs help..... they would help if they could.
Some people just stand silent witness and understand that something's happened that's larger than just slowing them down and getting in their way.
You are one of the mindful ones who stands witness and realizes there's lessons in everything.
And I believe, Hops..... that you would help. I've witnessed it... you extend yourself when you could just go on.
::picturing the people who grumble at 'incidents' on the side of the highway..... and think only of themselves and how they're affected. Yikes.
::picturing the people who use God as a constant form of succor (which I sometimes do, too):: Is it grace?
Hope.... I've seen you help too. You've got lessons to teach me..... still.
Oy.... what great hunting ground this is for sociopaths and N's :shock:
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Lighter,
I saw a program about Typhoid Mary a few months ago.
I have lost track of where I have been with my Holiday greetings to people, so if I'm repeating them to you, well- I think you'll
accept them again, but this time with a twist.
Mwerry, Mwerry Chwristmas to you, Lighter, and I'll be thinking of you Chwristmas day -
when I dwain the gwease while I cook the goose.
cats paw
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Hi Lupita:
You're post doesn't bother me but it's interesting to hear your perpsective.
I wasn't always blamed and my sister wasn't spoiled rotten.... I had an idyllic childhood till I was 7... then bright lights big city. ::BOOM!::
Changes for the worst, when parents are out of control, they're children are out of control.
It's not tragic but it's the way it was.
I really am working some things out here... though it may seem like I'm going on and on endlessly about something I'll never shut up about :shock:
That's the thing about agendas.... they are what they are.... despite how others view, judge, resent or otherwise protest the under their weight.
All kinds of agendas on the highway/board/workplace/FOO.....
What kind of driver are you, Lupita?
Something to think about.
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Lighter,
Mwerry, Mwerry Chwristmas to you, Lighter, and I'll be thinking of you Chwristmas day -
when I dwain the gwease while I cook the goose.
cats paw
:D I was just selecting and choosing fine free range geese when I asked a lady at the store if she liked to eat goose?
She had a terrific british accent and she engaged me in a lengthy enjoyable warm discussion about very old cook books she'll share with me when I get ready to do embrace the ritual cooking of the geese, lol.
Her name's Diane and I really I hope I have a new 3 d friend as I certainly need another.
Please tell me how you're cooking yours and let me know what you'd change about your recipe.
OH! OH! She also said that goose fat is the very best for roasting potatoes to their most crisp wonderful best.
I think Yukons are what she uses...... I like little fingerling pups for the job....but don't just throw out that gwease!
I'm going to start a thread about how everyone's Christmas dinner went, the bad the good and the ugly.... as far as food went.
Please share the goose adventure there.
::going to start thread::
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Shunned..... I can tolerate people's eruptions in traffic or when they're having a bad day at work of if they're an unhappy soul just transferring some agression long my path that day.
I don't go to bed at night mumbling to myself over rude people bc I ask myself,
"I wonder what happend to them that has them acting like that today?" THen I'm happy I'm having a better day and I go on about my business.
I can also choose not to drive in 5pm traffic on a Friday, go to a restaurant where the wait staff sucks or return to a rude sales associate, I can ask for their supervisor and get the job done without being bothered.
I don't always have the option/luxury to sidestep every gaslighting personality I encounter.... and I encounter more than my fair share, IMO.
What do I do about that?
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(((((((((((((((((((((CB)))))))))))))))
You are such a great example and I am so happy for you. You sound so healed... and whole.
Love, Beth
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Hi Lollie,
I haven't read this whole thread, but could you post about your technique? I'm really interested since I'm seeing my Nmom for the first time in 2.5 months next week. I'm a little nervous about it, and any help would be great.
T
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Hey Lighter – in response to post #12 – are you trying to change Rome in a day? Speaking for myself, you are working with a wounded army here. Given my childhood, abnormal is normal to me – although I am starting to turn that around. One thing I have learned, I won’t b
ye a bystander on the road anymore (just don’t know if I can prevent the accidents). (edits in blue - whew - I ned to teke the time to prof reed - who has time?)
Following is a hijack – sorry :)
Amber, this spoke to me (loudly and as very wise), learned this with my parents, the reminder is very timely (btw – you are not by any means invisible and I am sorry if my lack of posting has made you feel this way. I don’t have much time to post these days and sometimes I need to pull back a little. Hearing people's stories reminds me of my own, and I really resonate with your story. It can be hard for me.
for the gaslighters, I remind myself that they are legends in their own minds... and that they live on a planet populated with only 1 person: themselves. I try to learn as much as possible about their planet, so that I can communicate in terms they understand, because sometimes I have to deal with them - at work, elsewhere. The more I know, the more I can constrain their ability to affect me - and (wacko that I am) I am sometimes able to divert them from creating havoc for other people...
and I always walk away from those encounters feeling extraordinarily lucky that my planet is much bigger, more diverse - and a heck of a lot less boring than theirs. When I remember my self enough, to be that present, that is. I am still blindsided sometimes.
Lupita, you sound different these days, like you have gained a tremendous amount of strength, I am so happy for you.
CB congratulations - you sound wonderful - you and Lupita have made my day.
Lollie - hi again. I would love to hear more about this as well!
Much love,
Peace
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FP, Thank you so much for your kind words.
Dear Lighter, what kind of a driver am I. I will speak metaphorically. As a doctor with out a license, you can go to jail if you touch a patient. So, I am a driver scared to stop to help. Because I do not know if my help could be help or damage. Because I am afraid.
But I am a deffensive driver, trying to avoid accidents, and I promise you with all my heart that if there is something I believe I can do to help, I will do it. The problem is that I do not know what is the difference.
Anyway, there are lows for indifference. You can go to jail for watching a crime and not helping. There are also lows agaisnt depraved indifference. Like when you see a rape and do nothing, or a fight and do nothing. Etc. Many examples.
Dont forget that I still get paralized when in fear.
Here I do not enter the conflicts not for lack of desire but for fear of doing more damage than benefit.
That is why I do not post in threads that are triggering to me or irritating. I pick only the unavoidable battles. I have one tomorrow with parents of a student who is failing my class.
I still think that you have problems with your sister and you reflect it in your way of explessing. Or so I think. Of course I might be wrong. Who knows. Or if it is not a sister, it is a similar situation.
That is why Dr. G said that the battle is almost impossible to abandone.
Anyway, you have been so helpful and so nice to me that I love you with all my heart.
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Big day today.... but I got a lot out of some of these responses...... be back to re read in a bit. : )
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(((((((CB))))))
Congratulations on your freedom and your joy.
I'm visualizing you as Fred(dette) Astaire in Singing in the Rain...but you have a handsome Mexican partner who smiles at you like you're the sun.
xxoo,
Hops
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(((((((( CB )))))))))
So very happy for you, truly, I am.
Love to you,
Leah
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ah.....
for the gaslighters, I remind myself that they are legends in their own minds... and that they live on a planet populated with only 1 person: themselves. I try to learn as much as possible about their planet, so that I can communicate in terms they understand, because sometimes I have to deal with them - at work, elsewhere. The more I know, the more I can constrain their ability to affect me - and (wacko that I am) I am sometimes able to divert them from creating havoc for other people...
and I always walk away from those encounters feeling extraordinarily lucky that my planet is much bigger, more diverse - and a heck of a lot less boring than theirs. When I remember my self enough, to be that present, that is. I am still blindsided sometimes.
Shunned...... What about when you have to deal with them on an ongoing basis..... someplace in your life that you care about or otherwise can't excape?
How do you deal with watching other's, who impact your life also, get pulled into the one man orbit and manipulated..... it affects you. You can't just ignore it.... or can you?
I suppose it entails some quick calculations, on your part.
Will stepping in, whatever form that might take, cause EVERYONE (including you and the new player) more discomfort?
Is causing the gaslighter (small or large) some discomfort (by shining a bit of light on their bahavior) worth the disruption of his LARGE PUNISHING REACTION, which is his true genius?
If we don't keep our mouths shut..... we'll be dealing with a flurry of accusations and wild negative behaviors that aren't in balance with the actions that CAUSED them.
So..... asking one little rational question in a sane appropriate voice can lead to a tulmultuouse week of craziness that snowballs out of control and.....
let's face it.... the one little question really was ONE of the causes, wasn't it?
I still protest my ability to express rational thoughts and words, bc the gaslighters exact such a high cost if I don't towe the line and allow them to operate without challenge or question.... even though it's work to towe the line as well.
If I have to work really hard at something.... and I consider towing the line AND questioning great hard work..... what kind of worker am I?
This is sort'a rhetorical.... and not a copletely formed train of thought...... still a work in progress. ::nodding::
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lollie and lupita.... I've still yet to get back to your posts, re read them and respond. Kind of grab a minute here and there when I have a chance: )
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Lighter,
I'm twanging to this and don't know the answer (but am familiar with that price):
Is causing the gaslighter (small or large) some discomfort (by shining a bit of light on their bahavior) worth the disruption of his LARGE PUNISHING REACTION, which is his true genius?
Wish I did know.
love,
Hops
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Is causing the gaslighter (small or large) some discomfort (by shining a bit of light on their bahavior) worth the disruption of his LARGE PUNISHING REACTION, which is his true genius?
My personal view is that the only effective way would be to work together and simply show clearly "we" together in a community of unity, know, recognize, that the 'gaslighting' is taking place.
This can be done without discord.
Once the 'gaslighter' knows they know - the gaslighter has lost his/her role game play.
However, with only one person standing up alone (or just a few people) he/she has his/her ultimate object(s) for his/her game,
so he/she then can up the anti to employ all the rest of his/her nasty moves and tactics in his/her game.
Then he/she can sit back and enjoy. As innocent object's of his/her making knock each other out of the game.
Remember, it's his/her game, and it's all about him/her.
That's my viewpoint.
Love, Leah
PS> Each environment is different and would need a different handle or approach. Dependent upon the situation being: Real or Cyber ?
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Wise, Leah.
Thank you, Amber.
Carry on, Lighter.
(I will carry on, peeking behind your shield.)
I'm feeling sort of disgusted with myself.
Overeating and bloated.
I think I am showing signs of having boundary collapse in all directions, in a way.
I can see it here, and in 3D life, in my relationships, and the way I'm treating my body.
Maybe holidays are catching up to me. Plus the D drama.
When I'm not caring care of myself in relationships, then I also don't care for my body.
This would be my lightbulb of the week.
xo,
Hops
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Thank you, Hops
Love to you, Leah
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I believe Dr Phil has the idea to STOP GASLIGHTING MANEUVERS in your families, once and for all. Maybe you haven't tried this or maybe you have, but if not, I'd highly recommend it, cause N's hate it and it leaves them defenseless, like they belong being left.
VIDEOTAPE THEM IN THE VERY ACT and then say "OK, NOW WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY? WHAT LIE ARE YOU GOING TO TELL TO DISCREDIT THE VERY THING THAT IS IN LIVING COLOR BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES?
I know X dreaded the thought of being taped by me. I should have known that the reason for that, was that there was MUCH to hide and not want seen.
~Laura
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Leah,
My personal view is that the only effective way would be to work together and simply show clearly "we" together in a community of unity, know, recognize, that the 'gaslighting' is taking place.
Don't you think it is sometimes quite difficult, especially on the internet to tell who is gaslighting whom? Sometimes maybe two people are gaslighting each other simultaneously or no one is being gaslighted at all. Seems like 'we' should be very circumspect about unifying against anyone in a place as shadowy as the internet.
mud
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Leah,
My personal view is that the only effective way would be to work together and simply show clearly "we" together in a community of unity, know, recognize, that the 'gaslighting' is taking place.
Don't you think it is sometimes quite difficult, especially on the internet to tell who is gaslighting whom? Sometimes maybe two people are gaslighting each other simultaneously or no one is being gaslighted at all. Seems like 'we' should be very circumspect about unifying against anyone in a place as shadowy as the internet.
mud
Dear Mud,
I mentioned, when "we" know so "we" would be in a position of "knowing" due to the all too evident behaviours of engagement. Especially, when we know the person is being targetted for a purpose, as we have all recently been witnessing, without dragging up examples.
We have known, as it has been mentioned.
The renowned worldwide "cyberbullying" website is a good resource and includes how to become aware of various types of modern day internet practices etc.
Basically, in any community, you don't stand back and watch someone get slaughtered.
Leah
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Mud.... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and spreads confusion like a duck......
maybe it's a duck?
Every board member feels free to lable, judge and otherwise determine what the behavior of 3-d players might be.
I can't, for the life of me, determine why it's taboo for members here to look at another board member's behavior, make reasonable determinations about it then take steps to minimize future chaos on the board.
Not silence it.
Not restrict it.
Just provide some context and information that prevents previouse patterns of chaos and confusion.
Why is it that reasonable, rational observations are so taboo!?!?!
Ahem.
How to make sense out of non-sensical responses, that go beyond the pale, 101.
I don't know about you but..... I need a few lessons in the subject :shock:
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Hi, Lighter.
I tend to handle them differently depending on how invested I am in the relationship and how I imagine my life will be affected by the Pd'd person. But I also sense from your posts that you would like to protect and warn others about the red flags/PDs you see, so I'm a bit confused... I'm just not clear about what you are looking for.
Lollie
Does it all come down to how dependant we are on the PD'd person?
I think it does.
I happen to be somewhat dependant on this board.... and not the pd person causing repeated board strife so... back to contemplating what dependancy and resistance to being held hostage means.
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It seems pretty sensible to me, for someone to believe that complete amateurs diagnosing as fact people they hardly know with various "PDs", sociopathies, etc is neither reasonable nor necessarily rational.
mud
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It seems pretty sensible to me, for someone to believe that complete amateurs diagnosing as fact people they hardly know with various "PDs", sociopathies, etc is neither reasonable nor necessarily rational.
Mud, seems to me thst complete amateurs diagnosing people with various PD's, is the whole premise of this board! And learning to do thst as early as possible in a new relationship, seems to be one of the most sought-after skills of thosr of us who have been wounded. I get your point--and probably agree with you--but could be that you are trying to shut the barn door after the pony has already escaped.
I just wanted to point out what personal options are really available in trying to process last week:
1) Ignore the whole thing and not make any judgments at all about any of it. Let it blow over and then continue business as usual. A very viable option--but you all have to recognize that when our FOO exercised that option in our lives they did as much damage to us as did the original N behavior. I am not voting one way or another for this, but just pointing out the inconsistency of sympathizing with someone who is trying to recover from something in their FOO that we are, at the same time, participating in here. (I might add that when I have been scapegoated on the board, that was the reaction of choice--so I know wherewith I speak).
2) Contact other people individually and behind the scenes so you can offer sympathy and support without getting involved in open conflict on the board. I am really reluctant to do that since that appears to be gathering factions behind the scene and that feels smarmy to me. Not to mention the fact that it is proabably that very tactic that puts steam behind the original gaslighting.
3) Leave the board because it just isnt safe. And, how many of us have noticed that that has been the option exercised by the majority of our long-timers? Most of the fire in the conflict has been fueled by posters who have not been around as long, and those who have disappeared have been those who were around long enough to remember the last several conflicts. I am making absolutely no judgment about whether that is good or bad--only that it is a fact, and needs to be weighed in when we wonder how best to handle board conflict.
4) Continue to hammer out, on the board, in the open, the dynamics of what is happening. Big negative: it keeps alive a conflict that is probably not going to get resolved and which is very triggering to those of us who try to stay sensitive to what is going on. Big positive: for once, those of us who have been voiceless for so long when we perceived we are being persecuted (perceived being the operative word), have an opportunity to take a different stance in a place that we feel safe. Or should feel safe.
Notice that I am not assuming any PD's at all here, although that is also a real possibility that can get thrown into the mix. It seems to me that the above are all possible approaches that could be taken by regular, ol', co-N's who are trying to figure out how the heck to maneuver a very familiar situation. I can only claim to have used #1, since I find #2 distasteful, #3 means I would have left within a few weeks of joining the board and wouldnt even be here to participate in this discussion, and have already found #4 to be fruitless in 3D life so dont have much faith in its ability to solve anything (this is the Achilles heel in my normally optimistic view of life--I dont believe that anyone, not just N's, really change that much because of anything I say to them).
Here's my big thought: any of these options are acceptable, in some cases. If we were advising someone who came to the board with a 3D situation, I think that the advice that many of us would give would be to take door #3. NC. Period. End of discussion. Except that, when you are dealing with relationships that consist SOLELY of discussion, that pretty much closes down the board whenever there is a conflict.
Our second most common piece of advice would be a 3D #4. Stand up for yourself. Refuse to be voiceless. Speak your truth and let the chips fall where they may. Reap the internal benefits of regaining your power, even if the situation doesnt resole the way you would like.
I have never heard anyone on the board recommend a 3D #1, or seen anyone who exercised a 3D #2 have a good outcome.
Anyway, thought I would clarify the real options that are available. My personal guess is that if there is a push, on the board, to avoid #4, it is probably not because we have a moral aversion to standing up for ourselves. It is probably because if someone decides to handle conflict by standing up and speaking up (#4), it will mess with the dynamics of the system and will trigger most of us all over the place. Which, it might be helpful to note, is why our FOO chose that option in past 3D times.
Seems to me that we might be on the edge of some valuable truth telling to ourselves: that maybe our FOO wasnt all bad guys who just wanted to persecute us. That maybe some of our FOO were actually cut from the same piece of cloth as the rest of us--they didnt know what to do with an ugly situation either. That they were triggered all over the place by open confrontation. That they saw the whole family structure imploding because someone spoke up, and kept speaking up. So, they chose to go with #1, just as many of us have here.
Hey, guys. Just calling it like I sees it. Seems to me we are stuck in a never-ending spiral if we dont see that the same behavior can't be encouraged off the board if it is discouraged on the board. I don't have an answer. I'm as triggered as the next person. I am not choosing #4, myself. For me, this kind of thing makes me rethink the original behavior that brought me to the board in the first place. Makes me think through whether everyone that triggers me (past, present and future) is a PD. Makes me wonder whether my healing lies in trying to put a label on people, or whether it lies in being kind to myself as I navigate a really, really tough life that doesnt have a rule book.
Sorry, Mud. I know I drive you nuts when I chase this particular rabbit trail. What can I say? I'm a rabbit.
Love, CB
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"It seems pretty sensible to me, for someone to believe that complete amateurs diagnosing as fact people they hardly know with various "PDs", sociopathies, etc is neither reasonable nor necessarily rational."
mud
I seem to recall you doing a masterful job of it when someone was masqurading as a Mother and Doctor Son team, here on the board, Mud; )
It's one thing I can count on..... we (general) refer to people as our N's (I think that's a Cluster B personality disorder? Right up there with antisocial and Borderline Personality Disorder?) all the time without being questioned about it. Be it boss or neighbor or friend or relative. We're pretty comfy with dx'ing on the board. ::nodding::
I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head for me, Mud.
Loose train of thoughts to follow:
I;ve already stated that I have no interest or hope in gaining anything from the Personality Disordered person.... by talking about their behavior.
Not change or recognition or taking responsiblity or nuthin.
What I have come to expect is a radical protesting beyond the pale response from the PD person that's designed to discourage any fruther voicing of perceptions, in the future.
That their ploy seems to work, is the crux of my frustration.... at least I think it is, at this point. :?
Talking about PD behavior, here, as in anywhere..... is about expressing perceptions about reality.... and it's usually challenged with blaming, shaming, more over the top scapegoating and gaslighting.... dramatics, etc.
That's expected and not at all surprising from the PD person.
WHAT IS SURPRISING...... is when a group of peers, who're in the same environment.... deny the perceptions of their peer .
Doesn';t matter if it's subtle or overt..... having the PD person's skewed version of reality validated..... is shocking and never mind unfair, if they're actually doing what's being pointed out.
Especially here...... to see PD people garner sympathy/supply and back up regarding their outragouse behavior..... is a puzzle.
And
I
am
puzzled. :shock:
So...
it's not that I desire the PD's understanding or anything else from them.
It's the misfired connection between the people observing the behavior that has me confused..... though confusion follows pd people like a cloud of toxic gas and I'm not surprised about that.
The PD may be extremely skillful in gaining sympathy and protection responses from certain individuals, like protective manly men, for instance? People who're attracted to discord and generally dislike anyone being put on the spot, esp if it's done in a cocky annoying manner?
I must say....... feeling something's out of place and talking about it is terrible difficult enough, considering what one encounters when they hit the nail with PD people. Talking about it usually starts with a very small subtle voice and escalates as the PD avoids, returns fire and generally moves the discussion in an arena of grand scale. It can't just remain a discussion. Nope nope nope.
I digress..... I'm sure it can be an overt injury when the group the PD person is manipulating actually defends that persons right to continue their behavior, unchecked, and actually sanctions the bahavior. ::shudder::
So...... being dismissed (with prejudice and the intention to shame in some cases......) for expressing our perceptions of reality in any arena.... is disturbing. Esp if we're friggin right,lol!
And then...... rolling out the red carpet for the behavior to continue (unchallenged) and perhaps even sanctioned to some extent.... is just a dallop of gall on the top.
:?
I guess a couple of sayings come to mind.....
"You can't save people from themselves" and "All that's necessary for evil to succeed, is for good ment to do nothing."
Imagine if good men are sanctioning it. :?
Dumbfounded and confused as to why I perceive this is happening.... if I'm completely off base here and have no basis in reality for my perceptions. ::about to toddle off..... dizzy::
I'm perfectly willing to accept that my perceptions are skewed, after all. I'm human. I can admit that, and not just to gain sympathy either.
::whispering::
I actually believe it.
What I'm not willing to do is accept someone else's skewed version, if it makes no sense to me at all.....
and so far......
I'm not resonating with you here, Mud.
And..... does it matter if the evil is small and malformed and confused and not much of a threat?
How does that excuse it from being perceived honestly if that's what it is?
Why would it be exempt? Is it some unwritten crime to express our perceptions and have them validated when it concerns PD people... not just here but EVERYWHERE?
Too much discomfort? Remember when Peck took that woman apart in his book, PEOPLE OF THE LIE? She was going on and on about how much trouble it was to care for her husband, what would he do without her, how taxed she was at every moment and when he/Peck began steering her to the obviouse,
that she didn;t have to stay and demean this man while building herself up non stop as his savior, she could go :shock: She started falling apart. Peck put her back together and left her the way she was, bc she was an even bigger mess when her behavior was pointed out. ::sigh:: Really dizzy now.
Bc it takes less energy on everyone's part to sanction or ignore.... except of course when it keeps causing a pattern of disruption and chaos, that is.... which is my original point, btw.
The pattern repeats and it seems fairly obviouse to everyone...... I resent that my pointing it out is perceived to be the original cause of disruption and discord, if that's whats really happening, and I'm not sure it is at this point, lol.
I'm interested in figuring out how to avoid that pattern, of being dismissed or having my perceptions dismissed,in the future and I suppose this is a learning ground..... I don't think this windmill is a great tall monster ::shaking head::
What can be gained by having a group provide understanding and validation of our perceptions?
Is it important and if so.... why?
What's missing and what's been lost if the group doesn't choose to validate when one's right?
When one's wrong?
I'm truly baffled and thinking about diving into the book store with vigor for a while: )
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::waving to CB::
Up so early: )
I had trouble keeping the choices straight but.... your post really has me thinking about stuff, lol.
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Oh no! CB...... get some of those really expensive 3M waterproof bandaids and don't take it off till everything's healed :shock:
I hate it when I get a cut or burn on my hand...... takes forever to get over but those bandaids really help.... at least if I wear them while doingthigns that re injure or break it open.
Thanks for the post..... I'm following you and I understand.
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I read your post 3 times Lupita.... and each time I got something different.
I think you have a lot to offer everybody, including yourself.
Don't be afraid to speak your mind..... I like what you're thinking.
You make sense and I think you're having better luck with observer mode.
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My friends, we are gathered here today
to celebrate the remarkable life of Ms. Ceebee Fingerchunk.
Ms. Fingerchunk was an unusual digit: she knew how to
make the most extraordinary piquant beverage from bitter fruit.
She gave ade and comfort with such generosity of spirit that
people from miles around--even from other states--would ship
her their lemons in order to receive the special Fingerchunk
Pale Ale that only she knew how to brew.
Ms. Fingerchunk was celebrated among her peers for her
charming habit of dancing the meringue in her kitchen,
calling out directions to her happy sous chefs, puncturing
and punctuating them (the directions, not the sous chefs)
with cheerful Oles! They (the sous chefs, not the directions) loved and
trusted Ms. Fingerchunk, and even when they couldn't imagine
how her subtle recipes would turn out, they set to their tasks
with a will.
And despite her mighty reputation in the great kitchens of
North and Central and South America, and the Antarctic,
Ms. Fingerchunk was neither an aloof nor an irascible master chef.
She ran her aromatic domain as a democracy, even though
she believed in socialized surgery. She was beloved among her
peers and minions for her habit of bellying up to the block with a will,
dicing and chopping and slicing and as we know, she gave it her all.
Let us now have a moment of silence for Ceebee Fingerchunk.
Her absence will leave us quite sore for a time. She will be missed.
-
Yeah...I'm up too early. Cut a big chunk out of my finger yesterday while at work. All these months of work, I'm down to the last week, and I took a big ol' wedge of finger out. Yuck.
Oh, CB,
That * feels * awfully painful.
Hope it heals quickly for you.
Love, Leah
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Hops! ::clapping happily::
Loved the solemn moment, lol.
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Wow! I have a lot to talk about in response to these posts:
First, CB's #'s of options:
CB: 1) Ignore the whole thing and not make any judgments at all about any of it.
This is not ME at all. I'm a confronter, not a "brush it under the rug and have no view on it" type of gal. This is why you will see me stickin my nose in sometimes where it wasn't asked to be stuck. I'm still learning to determine when it's ok to have a say or when certain folk, even though they ask for "opinions" actually only want to be assured that they are sooooooooo right!
CB: 2) Contact other people individually and behind the scenes so you can offer sympathy and support without getting involved in open conflict on the board. I am really reluctant to do that since that appears to be gathering factions behind the scene and that feels smarmy to me. Not to mention the fact that it is proabably that very tactic that puts steam behind the original gaslighting.
I have NO problem with people pmming. Everyone has a right to talk to whomever they want, whenever they want, provided both parties are in agreement to the arrangement. I currently have talked to several people from this board in pms, and make no apologies for it. There are people I would be talking to privately, besides these, but they made it clear that they wanted NO contact with me privately, and I have respected that. Usually, I figure that God is sparing me from something by not connecting me with those people.
CB: 3) Leave the board because it just isnt safe.
Newsflash here! This board is never actually SAFE. The people here have come from dysfunctional homes, and, unless they are currently in therapy, and dealing with their issues, you are bound to relive much of the same baloney that you just came from in your family of origin. That's not to diss on anyone here; it is the plain, cold, hard truth. It is always my prayer when I read messages on here, that each person with the deep issues, is currently in therapy or at least seeking some sort of viable help. The things you've endured, are not things you can overcome by sheer will-power, prayer, nice thoughts. That is why this very board is run by a what? a therapist.
CB: 4) Continue to hammer out, on the board, in the open, the dynamics of what is happening.
when you are dealing with relationships that consist SOLELY of discussion, that pretty much closes down the board whenever there is a conflict.
Yeah, I will only hammer till my arm gets too tired. Once I see that my view is not going to be the accepted one, I hush. I learned that a long time ago here. I just had to ask myself "so what? what if the entire board agrees with/turns against you, Laura? What does it matter either way to the rest of your day/life? Not much if anything."
OK now for my response to Lighter:
Lighter: Too much discomfort? Remember when Peck took that woman apart in his book, PEOPLE OF THE LIE? She was going on and on about how much trouble it was to care for her husband, what would he do without her, how taxed she was at every moment and when he/Peck began steering her to the obviouse,
that she didn;t have to stay and demean this man while building herself up non stop as his savior, she could go She started falling apart. Peck put her back together and left her the way she was, bc she was an even bigger mess when her behavior was pointed out. ::sigh:: Really dizzy now.
Ok, first of all, I agree with Peck. If someone is abused, in a situation where there is help available if they would LEAVE IT, staying is not smart. Playing "Martyr" is never a wise move. Why did "I" stay with my nH? because he isn't a full-fledged N and because he has actively been going to counseling, attending marriage seminars, reading marriage books and making a REAL change in our family and marriage. He knew that if he hadn't done these things, I had already talked to lawyers and authorities and was prepared to leave. This is what anyone in abusive situations NEEDS TO DO...am I being bossy? controlling? yes? that's fine, but as Dr Phil might say..."ok so you've decided to stay while he beats your brains out or tears you down verbally....how's THAT workin for ya?"
Secondly, question, Lighter...what's with all the ::dizzy:: :::confused::: :::sigh::...all that stuff. Is that your way of expressing non-verbals in text? Been wondering.
Lighter (I think) :What can be gained by having a group provide understanding and validation of our perceptions?
In my opinion, I suppose it lets a person feel validated, similar to if their family would have believed them, but what can this group on this board really DO for you? I mean, in a family, validation would have meant...hugs, smiles, priviledges, acceptance of parents, lack of sibling revenge. Here, it means WHAT? You go for a day knowing you WON a board battle?
CB again: Lighter, I think what can be gained is everything that each one of us has gained while being on this board. That is really the only true value of the board. Understanding and validation of our perceptions. No one here has anything to go on, except our perceptions of what we have been through.
And therein lies the "rub" CB. We have perceptions of what we've been through. We all type into posts, based on how we have learned to see the world, unless we have gotten the help we've needed along the way...therefore, as I've said, I have learned to stop taking people's screwy views on here, so personally. We are in the midst of some actual borderlines on this board. I could easily point out who is who, based on traits that are universal, but the point is, this board does not lend to seeing someone's eyes, body language, hearing their voice, watching their facial expressions. It's a rather "iffy" way to communicate or establish and intimate, trusting relationship at best.
CB: I have often said that if my NH were to find this board and tell our story, you all would think that I was the biggest creep on the face of the earth. He would get all the sympathy that I have gotten. And the only difference is our perception of what has gone on in our lives together.
I have already watched X come to this board and saw many members actually take her side against me in heartbeat...some of the very ones I believed were my allies. It was shocking and yet, when I considered the background of those accusers of me, it made sense. I was able to tell myself "go figure...so and so is reenacting her role that she played with the N in her life." I realized I was on my own in facing, X and I feel I handled her just fine and she eventually left here and I took back my peace. (although I have no doubt that she has her henchmen checking the board from time to time to see if I posted anything new that could be incriminating evidence against me)
By the same token, I have heard some here who have vented about their circumstances, and I felt that I could see their own culpability in it. Would pointing that out have been helpful? Perhaps. But that's not what we do here. We accept everyone's story at face value and then support them.
I think I've already alluded to this fact. I have seen people on this board, posting about their "n's" who acted just as "n-ish" as the ones they referred to.
For example, when Laura tells us that her daughter is an N, we can't look at her daughter as someone who is reacting to past hurts (which is the truth we would apply to one of our own number). In order to fulfill our function as validators in Laura's life, we have to accept her interpretation of what is going on and sympathize with her pain--and even vilify her daughter.
Oh, on the contrary...my daughter IS reacting to past hurts and present ones she hasn't forgiven and let go of. She is reacting because her mother, who was tired of being bitten, hit, punched, kicked, threatened, by her as a very young child, finally retreated from the entire situation for about 3 1/2 years, getting lost in computer land. I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for the neglect of her and my other daughter during those times. Now, I am faced with a child who had to basically raise herself, get through a lot of her deep hurts on her own, and who has decided "you weren't there for me then, what do I want with ya now?!" Yes, I need validation as far as I deserve it, for eventually WAKING UP and realizing what I was doing to my children and family by escaping through a computer world.
The tendency of a lot of folks on this board is to listen to a person's story, even what I just told you, and say "there there, that must have been terrible," when honestly, I have more appreciated my spiritual mom who has held me accountable and THEN given mercy, by saying "YES that was WRONG of you to desert your children like that, but you have done what you needed to, to show Anna that you were very wrong and that you are truly sorry, and now SHE Is the one who needs to forgive and let it go."
There has GOT TO BE BALANCE in the way we respond to people on this board...if what they did was wrong and they admit it, it is FINE to say "that was wrong, so what are you doing to get help, to change, to make things right again."
ALL of the ABOVE responses are MY view alone and i own and take fullest responsibility for it and welcome all comments. :)
~Laura
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Private opinions are one thing. Continued and repetitive public humiliation and dxing as fact are quite another.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that my perceptions are skewed, after all. I'm human. I can admit that, and not just to gain sympathy either.
If you really were I doubt you would be quite so blasted assured of the conclusions you draw from your perceptions or quite so ready with the snide innuendo.
What I'm not willing to do is accept someone else's skewed version, if it makes no sense to me at all.....
If your first statement at the top is operable then your second is inoperable, isn't it? If your perceptions are skewed then what does not make sense to you may be perfectly sensible.
.... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and spreads confusion like a duck......
Methinks the lady doth quacketh too much.
mud
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Hi boardguest,
This post was deleted. Please sign in and post it under your screen name.
Thanks,
Richard Grossman
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Private opinions are one thing. Continued and repetitive public humiliation and dxing as fact are quite another.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that my perceptions are skewed, after all. I'm human. I can admit that, and not just to gain sympathy either.
If you really were I doubt you would be quite so blasted assured of the conclusions you draw from your perceptions or quite so ready with the snide innuendo.
What I'm not willing to do is accept someone else's skewed version, if it makes no sense to me at all.....
If your first statement at the top is operable then your second is inoperable, isn't it? If your perceptions are skewed then what does not make sense to you may be perfectly sensible.
.... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and spreads confusion like a duck......
Methinks the lady doth quacketh too much.
mud
[/quotr]
Thank goodness you stopped quacking, eh, lol?
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Mud.... I was thinking.
I'm so glad you're free to list your thoughts out here, on the board.....
so glad you've gifted your honesty to me.
All along....
you never pulled a punch.
Thank you.
I've noticed..... I no longer need the radio in the car.
My mind's excited to entertain my own thoughts..... my company's enough.
This is a new, unexpected gem of understanding and acceptance gleaned, in part, from my time spent here.
There've been hudreds of other lessons, leading up to this point but..... the board's been a catalyst and I'm so grateful for that.
To everyone here, the wise, the confused, the sure and the undecided.....
Merry Christmas, everyone.
If I'm not on much..... I'm baking biscotti and wrapping presents, deciding on final cheese board selections and last minute purchases.
Right now..... just trying to live in the present and enjoy my blessings..... is enough.
Shunned.... exactly, lol!
Just feeling entitled to an opinion.... to share it, throw it out there is an amazing thing for those who weren't always sure who they were, much less how they felt/feel about small things, medium things ANY things, lol!
What an amazing place to stand.... and just be.
It doesn't matter that we're addressing the good, the bad or just people made of static.... waiting to be.
As long as we know who we are, trust our instincts and are willing to examine and question our motives and actions......
I think were good :D
((((Shunned)))) Merry Christmas.... I'm quite a bit into your story on the story board.
You're an amazing person who always seemed to have a kind grasp on reality..... even beyond many adults ability.
Amazing.
It's so satisfying to read your posts and see your light shine.