Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: cdnwoman on June 16, 2004, 11:21:06 AM
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Hello everyone;
I am 33 years old, live in Canada, single with no children. Since the break-up of my relationship last year, I have been in the many stages of recovery. Although the relationship was short, it was intense. I realized that the man I fell in love with is commitmentphobic. His deceitful actions have been very painful for me.
Just yesterday, an internet friend pointed out that I have "repetition compulsion" when it comes to relationships. That really made me stop and look at myself. I found that she is right. Since childhood, I was never given the opportunity to speak up for myself. I always felt that my parents didn't want to hear or care about my feelings. If I was angry or upset and did try to say something, they would get mad or dismiss me. As a small child, it hurt alot. I soon learned to keep my opinions and feelings to myself. Now all that repression is coming up.
Looking further, I see that I have been getting involved with men who also didn't allow me to voice what I wanted or needed. They never got it, or me for that matter. I was quickly ignored, or brushed aside for the next person. It is painful, frustrating and maddening.
Can anyone suggest how to release these feelings? I know it will hurt my parents deeply if I threw all this garbage at them. We were taught to never disrespect our parents, and now the thought of it brings a lot of guilt. Thanks for reading my post.
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Go get the book, "Men Who Can't Love," by Julia Carter and Stephen Sokol (sp?). It is totally about men with commitmentphobia, and will help you enormously.
They both have written other good books, too.
I, too, got involved with a commitmentphobic at one time. Never again! They play lots of games you haven't even thought of, I'll bet; leave you feeling emotionally drained, confused and make you crazy. Big waste of time.
Get this book in paperback. It's THE Bible on this subject.
Good luck...and you will recover from this, too.
Anastasia
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Hi Anastasia;
Thanks for replying. Yes, I do have the book and found it very insightful. For awhile I thought it was me...but after reading about commitmentphobics, I have a better understanding of why they do the things they do.
So now I am dealing with the garbage of why I constantly allow myself to be in relationships where I can't fully express myself, or be heard and understood. All previous relationships have been with men who were emotionally distant, commitmentphobic, and at times...verbally abusive. I guess it is a reflection of my childhood. My parents were my lifeline, and I can remember many instances where I felt dismissed, unimportant, or uncared for. I am hoping to hear some insight from other people who were able to safely unload all that garbage, and move on to a better life.
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Girl, you go back to reading all Dr. Grossman's articles about the fallout of having a Narcissistic guardian/parent. You and I are classics of their kids then.
I am pretty happy always, quit grounded and adventurous. I credit this to genetics kicking in and realizing from an early age (I remember 4 as my earliest memory that the nuttiness my Nmother was saying was crap!), but--lordly, lordly--I still have a great fear of true intimacy with a male partner (not friends--I'm cool there), problems in overeating at various times in my life (from a size 8 to 16 I would say is a big-ass problem), and fight workaholism sometimes (why do I love to hide in my work so much, but I do love working).
I have accepted that it is a lifelong battle for me...but I ain't givin' up. And I'm 59 and still working on it....and who the hell is that friggin' healthy anyway? All you can do is laugh about the craziness you have been subjected to sometimes.
Read the book I suggested again and again. Put it away for awhile, and all the information will kick in better in your subconscious.
These guys that are commitmentphobic are truly anxiety ridden and the world's biggest gameplayers. One time was enough for me. If I date anyone for 3-6 months now and realize the guy has commitment problems or anything I don't want to deal with (drugs and alcohol gets them out the door even faster)--they are gone!
My philosophy is: I would rather be mediocre happy and single than miserable like I have been in some relationships.
It's just my choice, and working so far. :D
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We sound similar in terms of relationship-experience. I have been told many times that I am "the package". Bright, young, attractive, happy-go-lucky, good career, good family, blah blah blah. LOL. I find it pretty ironic seeing that I tend to end up with mediocre men. There are times when I think...why bother??
It's amazing how little instances can build up to something crippling. All the times I haven't been able to voice myself and be heard while growing up, well....it is just amazing how it has played a big part in my emotional life now. Makes me want to shout at the world.
As for my commitmentphobic ex, since our break-up, it is business as usual for him. He continues to play with women. It hurts knowing that he doesn't get it. He will never understand how much I cared for him and how deeply he has hurt me by his games. But it is something I will need to accept. He will never be strong enough to face himself.
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Hi Cdnwoman,
One theory I've heard for this is that when we were children we got abusive behavior all confused with love, because we knew parents were supposed to love us and we needed them to take care of us, so that was the only way we could make sense of the abuse. For a child to think that their parent is being cruel to them is too scary to handle, so the psyche decides that what's happening is ok and normal and that gets sort of programmed in. Then later in life, we see that same behavior and are attracted to it because we confuse it with love and caring. :?
Another theory is that we get into relationships with people who were like our parents because our psyche wants to make it right this time. Like, if this time we can make a relationship with this abusive person work, then we have mastered it and thus triumphed over the original abusive situation.
At any rate, it's very, sadly true that we do keep trying to recreate the trauma we went through as children. It's great that you've recognized it and are acting on it. That's more than most people are able to do. A lot of people just go through life continuing the cycle in their lives and with their kids. But you recognize it and so now you can change it. :)
I can't say what it is to unload it all and move on to a better life since I'm still in the middle of it myself. But I can tell you that my ability to recognize Ns and emotionally abusive behavior has gotten much better and I'm learning to set healthy boundaries with people. I'm slowly getting a sense of what my "voice" is too.
Some ways to release the feelings... journaling, meditation, talking about things here or with friends, therapy, art, reading books (careful of any that promise quick, easy results or otherwise sound gimicky). Know that it will probably feel worse before it feels better, and it might be more complicated and emotional than it seems like it is. You also don't have to involve your parents at all! You can work on these things yourself without hurting them. Narcissists generally don't change anyway, so trying to bring them into the recovery process won't do much for them. For me, I felt that it would only hurt me more and make me crazy to try to talk to my parents about this stuff because they'll never hear me and they can't help me. The process isn't really about parents anyway - it's about one's self. :)
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So now I am dealing with the garbage of why I constantly allow myself to be in relationships where I can't fully express myself, or be heard and understood. All previous relationships have been with men who were emotionally distant, commitmentphobic, and at times...verbally abusive. I guess it is a reflection of my childhood. My parents were my lifeline, and I can remember many instances where I felt dismissed, unimportant, or uncared for. I am hoping to hear some insight from other people who were able to safely unload all that garbage, and move on to a better life.
It's called recovery from codependency. If you work on that, you can't remain voiceless or a willing victim. You'd develop boundaries, practice limit-setting, and learn how to interact with people in a self-protective, assertive way. It's all about new skills and changing unhealthy people-pleasing behaviors. Not easy; but that's how you will change the kind of men you date. With new behaviors there's a lot of anxiety so I would also recommend therapy. Best of luck! There are better men out there.
bunny
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CDN woman....are you my twin or am I your evil twin?
These commitmentphobic gameplayers GO AFTER THE UNATTAINABLE. The very women that shouldn't be sucked into their games are the ones who are: the bright, sharp, pretty gals who could get anyone.
Well, I, too, am described as "having it all": brains, success, degreed with honors, very pretty and look alot younger than I really am, and, when I can keep my weight down, having a great body. I could have my pick and choose they say. Well, I end up with these losers over and over. Something is off track with me somewhere to even allow these creeps in my life: I accept craziness easier than most because I grew up with crazy.
I'm going to pick someone healthy before I die, I swear it!
I have a couple old outdated books on Don Juans and there is one type that goes for us, too. Lucky us.
Well, I am on a diet. I have all the ears cocked to hear any craziness from some guys and I am outta there. I am determined to find a good life partner before I finally croak...damn it...
This fallout from being the abused child of a Narcissist has got to stop! I reallllly want to make healthy choices in men from now on.
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Good Morning All;
I knew for the longest time that something wasn't right within me to continually attract the same type of men. To be back at emotional square one. Like I said before, I am constantly told to be the "package". I guess I always wanted to believe that THIS TIME, it will be different with whoever I was seeing. But where I am now, it's pretty obvious that nothing has changed.
I find it easier to funnel my anger and pain towards ex-boyfriends than towards my parents. I feel guilty whenever I try to journal my hurt and anger in how they made me feel insignificant while growing up. Perhaps a therapist is needed. I have turned self-punishment into an art.
Is Codependency the same as Voicelessness? I somehow can't really connect the two. I guess they are different forms of compulsions. I am still trying to figure that out.
As for the commitmentphobics....ugh....I will run the other way screaming if I meet another one. I can say right now that I will be bearing scars from my last relationship. Him bailing on me with no warning, I guess it is good in that it helped me search more within myself. And to find that I have been "suffering" from repetition compulsion. There is a bit of relief in learning that.
I look forward to reading more posts.
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I am constantly told to be the "package". I guess I always wanted to believe that THIS TIME, it will be different with whoever I was seeing. But where I am now, it's pretty obvious that nothing has changed.
Being described as "the package" is a red flag. If a man calls you "the package" he's probably uninterested in dealing with a real human being. When you become more real as a person, he flees in terror. These men have to be weeded out very quickly before you invest emotions in them. Paying attention to red flags is the way to weed them out.
Is Codependency the same as Voicelessness? I somehow can't really connect the two. I guess they are different forms of compulsions. I am still trying to figure that out.
Codependency, in a nutshell, means that you focus on another person to regulate your emotional life. It means you lack self-protective boundaries and let the other person "take over" your existence. Two books that might really help you are:
"Are You The One For Me?" by Barbara De Angelis
"Women Who Love Too Much" by Robin Norwood
bunny
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Bunny, I agree with you totally that a man is only OBJECTIFYING you when they refer to you as having the "total package!" I fart, belch and do all the normal things. And I've worked hard to succeed, get an education, travel alot, etc. Nothing comes that friggin ez. I've worked my ass off alot to get my college education and succeed at work.
I was born with a good body and great face....but, because of all the neediness I must have deeply hidden, boy! can I ruin my body with all those wonderful comfort foods that taste so good. It takes Herculean discipline for me to get this weight under control and KEEP it there.
So, all in all, I am human like everyone else.
Some guy referring to me as having the "total package" is just his fantasies running wild...and his using me as an object to admire. Better he goes and buys himself a Penthouse and introduce himself to his hand, cause I don't feel flattered by his bullshit of being the "total package" now that I understand what he "really" means underneath that "compliment."
BUT, in defense of all of us who have continually gotten the message we were "unworthy" and "unlovable" by our parent/guardian, we have some needs that were really never met when we were young--and prime candidates for victimhood by creepy/using/commitmentphobic jerks. Be warned, people.
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Hey Cdnwoman,
I was reminded of this quote from "Beyond Codependency" by Melody Beattie;
Listen to the following conversation between two women. One woman is recovering from adult childhood issues and a marriage to an alcoholic. The other is of fairly normal descent.
"I can't decide whether to break up with my boyfriend or not," says a woman.
"What are his good points?" asks her friend.
"Well, he works every day. He usually does what he says he's going to do. He's kind. An he's never hit me."
"No," says her friend. "You don't understand. What are his good points? The things you listed are givens."
"Oh," says the woman. "I didn't know that."
Which of the two women do you think is the adult child?
The first time I read that... :shock: All of those GOOD traits are givens? Meaning that, from a healthy person's point of view, there's no reason to even consider being with someone who didn't have those good traits? It's even "normal" to expect to find good points BEYOND those?
I don't know if it fits exactly with what you're going through, but it came to mind as I was reading this thread. It does relate to the "total package" idea sort of - that even if someone seems to have all of the right traits, there's more to look for beyond that.
I think codependency and voicelessness are related. Actually I think that codependency creates voicelessness in some of the same ways as a N does. Codependency is also about not expressing your feelings, not rocking the boat, not getting your needs met, etc. It also makes you feel that you're not a complete person by yourself, just like a N can make you feel. I grew up with a N mom who was also codependent to my father and taught/forced me to be codependent to both of them, so they certainly can go together. In fact, now that I think about it, they're all mixed up together in my mind... I'm not completely sure which things were narcissism and which were codependency. Hmmm.
Take care, I'm glad my previous reply helped. :)
Yuki
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I am constantly told to be the "package". I guess I always wanted to believe that THIS TIME, it will be different with whoever I was seeing. But where I am now, it's pretty obvious that nothing has changed.
Being described as "the package" is a red flag. If a man calls you "the package" he's probably uninterested in dealing with a real human being. When you become more real as a person, he flees in terror. These men have to be weeded out very quickly before you invest emotions in them. Paying attention to red flags is the way to weed them out.
bunny
Hi Bunny;
Yes unfortunately I had to learn the hard way about those types of men. With my ex, him fleeing was a combination of things. But mainly he wasn't able to relate to me as a "real person". And knowing that he couldn't handle that other part of me hurts like no other.
I have learned to be independent at a very young age. I have a great-paying job, go to university part-time, have a lot of friends, basically an allround good life. My parents instilled that independence in me, and soon I grew up thinking that depending on a man was doom for failure.
My father and mother were a victims of emotional, physical, and verbal abuse. So them sharing love and affection was sporadic. My father drank alot while I was growing up, and my mother had to suffer through his abuse. Their fathers and grandparents drank alot too. They had eight children at a young age and having to raise us without the conveniences of today. I can see why they weren't as loving towards me as they could have been. I totally understand that. But does it make ME feel any better? No. I look at myself and still see the hurt 4 yr. old (that's the age that always comes to mind) looking for love and approval from them. Still looking for a way to be heard and understood.
Once I understood about having "repetition compulsion", it is like finally admitting an addiction. Okay....I have this affliction, now what do I do? So I have been experiencing a multitude of emotions, more so now. I made an appointment to see a counsellor tomorrow. To be honest, I am kinda scared. I never cried in front of a stranger. I think it is from the "happy front" that I am used to doing. A conditioned response.[/u]
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Once I understood about having "repetition compulsion", it is like finally admitting an addiction. Okay....I have this affliction, now what do I do? So I have been experiencing a multitude of emotions, more so now. I made an appointment to see a counsellor tomorrow. To be honest, I am kinda scared. I never cried in front of a stranger. I think it is from the "happy front" that I am used to doing. A conditioned response.[/u]
It is scary to see a counselor. And it's brave of you. Just remember that they see people crying every day and they're used to it. They don't judge it or think you're wierd. The counselor is on your side and wants to help you get better. Let us know how it goes, if you want.
bunny
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Well I appreciate your concern and thank you for the input. I will come back and let you know how the appointment goes tomorrow. It's gonna be tough.
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Well I went to the counsellor after work yesterday. She basically reiterated what I already knew. I am beating myself up too much over my past relationship, and it really stems from my parents not my ex. Once she mentioned my inner child...I almost broke down in tears. I am having a difficult time getting over my ex because that is the first time I really felt loved and appreciated by someone. Then it was taken away suddenly but his hiding, lying, and cheating. So it is easier to blame and be angry with him then directing it to the real source....my parents.
I have to go back and see her next week. In the meantime, she wants me to write out letters to my mom, dad, ex, and to myself. Write out all the thoughts and feelings I have towards them. She's right....I am too hard on myself. I bought the book last night "Healing the Child Within" and have seen a lot of myself in it. There are all types of abuse. Some blatant, and some subtle...which mine was. But they all damage your core. They all damage your self-esteem and ability to give and receive love.
Has anyone done this exercise? Did you find that it improved things? Or not? Thanks everyone.
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It sounds like you've found an understanding, perceptive counselor. It does hurt to hear about the inner child. When a former therapist mentioned it to me years ago, I was enraged. I didn't want to think about an inner child. Gee, maybe my parents weren't interested in her either!
The letters sound like an eye-opening exercise. Keep up the good work.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny;
I wrote a letter to my father last night but didn't finish it. I started to get pretty angry and wanted to smash the keyboard. I cried a bit afterwards. I know my father experienced abuse himself while growing up, and it was carried into our lives. He never once said "I love you". His affections were inconsistent. One moment, we are the greatest, the next moment, we are a nuisance. That is how I learned to gauge my behaviour around him. If he was in a bad mood or drinking, we laid low. To this day, our conversations are basic. I don't share my feelings with him. I love him to bits, but we don't have a close relationship. Whenever I tried to talk things with him, he would spit out advice on how to fix it. Hello...I need someone to listen and understand, not to get advice. He treated my mother pretty bad as well. There was physical, emotional, mental, and verbal abuse.
I also cried about my mother last night. She has had such a tough life. I am angry that she wasn't strong enough to leave my father. I am angry that she didn't stand up for herself. Everyone has a choice, and she made the choice to stay with him. Despite how badly he treated her. Maybe she felt that there was no other way out....I don't know. I cry for her, I feel bad that she has endured such pain, with no one really to support her emotional needs. Just typing it brings tears to my eyes.
My parents have no idea what I have been going through emotionally since being born. They have no idea that I have felt unworthy due to their dismissals. My earliest memories are of feeling unappreciated, misunderstood, and abandoned. Now whenever I think of my ex, I remind myself that he is another version of my father. They are similar in alot of ways, and I have to accept the fact that I am not going to get the love and understanding I need from them. I have to stop excessively blaming and beating myself up over other people's misdeeds. I have to stop giving up my heart to men who are not able to share their true selves. Men who are not able to appreciate the Real Me.
My inner child has been carrying alot of hurt and anger. She doesn't understand why people would mistreat her. She just wants to be loved and heard. She is in a lot of pain and I have to find ways to heal that pain.
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cdnwoman,
Your parents seem to have severe problems. They're lucky you have so much compassion for them. Your inner child has been neglected terribly by these grownups. The good news is that you are a grownup now, and you can take care of her. And that's what you're doing. Good work on the letters.
bunny
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I think the hardest letter to write is to my mother. My counsellor said that it is possible I am carrying her feelings of pain, sadness, anger. Being a young mother with an eighth child, plus being in an abusive relationship, she must have been under alot of emotional stress. Is it possible that she transferred her feelings onto me while pregnant? She was abandoned by her own mother while a baby and to this day, they don't have a mother-daughter relationship. Does that sound right?
It is still hard to be angry towards my parents. I feel guilty and find ways to rationalize their behaviour. It's going to take some time. Or a lot of letters....lol.
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I think the hardest letter to write is to my mother. My counsellor said that it is possible I am carrying her feelings of pain, sadness, anger. Being a young mother with an eighth child, plus being in an abusive relationship, she must have been under alot of emotional stress. Is it possible that she transferred her feelings onto me while pregnant? She was abandoned by her own mother while a baby and to this day, they don't have a mother-daughter relationship. Does that sound right?
You've sure got a smart counselor. I think it's quite likely that your mother projected very painful templates onto you, even while pregnant. It was unconscious on her part. However, unconsciously-driven actions can be the most destructive of all. Parents shouldn't perpetuate their childhood dramas with their own children. It's a no-no.
It is still hard to be angry towards my parents. I feel guilty and find ways to rationalize their behaviour. It's going to take some time. Or a lot of letters....lol.
Yeah, you may not get angry with them for a long time. Eventually you'll probably be pretty pissed off. And it won't kill them. People don't die even if someone is enraged with them.
bunny
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I had another visit with my counsellor this past week. It went pretty well. We talked about my ex and how I am still carrying alot of anger towards him. I still find it easier to be angry and put all the blame on him then my parents.
We talked about my father and how I should attempt to open the door of communication. So it was decided that I buy him a greeting card with a short note saying what I love about him, how I miss being his little girl, how I hope he is proud of me as much as I am proud of him, and that I hope it is not too late to get to know each other. I cried writing that short note. To be honest, I am scared to death for baring myself to him. I am afraid of being rejected, not being taken seriously. I am mailing it in the morning, so he should get by this Wednesday or Thursday.
I will be going to my parent's this coming weekend for a get together, I will be nervous seeing my father. I love my father very much and want nothing but to have a close relationship with him. It is what has been missing in my life.
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cdnwoman,
Wow, that is very brave of you. I'm glad you have this counselor to process things with after you see your parents. I hope so much that your father responds as he ought to.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny, yes I hope he responds positively too. And I am scared to death. My father isn't emotionally expressive, except when it comes to anger. So all I can do is wait and see how he is when I see him. I was thinking of walking up to him and my mom when I go home, and give them each a big hug.
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I think the hug would have to melt him a little bit! :)
A lot of people only express anger because any tender emotion makes them feel like a hermit crab who's lost its shell. If your father DOES express a loving feeling, he may get frightened and pick a fight or find a reason to get angry again (where he feels safe). Don't take it personally if he does this. These things take time and baby steps.
More kudos to you on your bravery.
bunny