Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: claris on June 18, 2004, 12:43:55 AM
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Hello all
I have been working with my therapist on my current career change and spent a lot of time talking about my N mother and her impact on my life choices, especially regarding my previous career choices and the fears and insecurities associated with taking a new path.
I'd be interested to hear your stories of your choices about work and career, and the effects that your Ns may have had on them.
Thanks!
Claris
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I'm an underachiever. I think my upbringing had a lot to do with it. My parents weren't good at helping children feel competent. They were very disapproving and critical. I could've worked harder to change this as a grownup and I didn't. It's a very weak area for me.
bunny
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Thanks a lot, Claris.
You have hit a very sore subject with me LOL.
I will tell you about my career path and let you all judge whether or not I should have a giant "L" for loser on my forehead.
Basically I've been in the same business for 27 years. This is a career for which I am totally ill suited for (personality wise) and have always felt like I never did very well in. Oh, I was competent enough but couldn't "work and play well with others" as the saying goes. Oh, and I'm book smart and people stupid (as my parents were very fond of saying).
I had at least 12 jobs in almost as many years (3 fired and 9 quit) until I finally decided I had better work for myself. That worked out pretty good for about ten years but the last 3 1/2 have been kind of bad because of market forces, being usurped by the internet and never liking my work.
I will admit to sabotaging myself, being lazy and not keeping my skills up and basically wanting to watch reruns of Hawaii 5-0 more than working. I am smart and have talent and am very well read. But I can't think of what I really want to do.
I have many avocational things like interior decorating, nutrition and personality typing/psychology that I'm interested in or am good at. But when it comes to thinking about them as a career, I can't really go there. I can't grasp onto anything where I can even conceive of "Doing what I love and the Money will Follow" or doing whatever with the parachute (what's that pesky book called?).
How has my N quotient factored into all of this? Well I've decided that I should maybe be the next Mr. Bellevedere or Mr. French (if I was a dude) since I am really good at:
1. anticipating everyone's needs but my own.
2. being very efficient
3. serving everyone (I am super at housework btw)
4. acquiescing to Ns and non Ns
5. acting happy when I'm not
6. walking on eggshells so as not to irritate the irascible N
Now that is just my professional life. My NMom basically picked my career for me (I had no guidance counselor or parent directing me in any way to something I might actually be good at) from a brochure that came in the mail for a jobs school. I aced their little entrance exam and was on my way to a career I've hated for 27 years.
But I do keep a nice, extremely well decorated house that I'm proud of and have a great husband. So I am not totally pathetic. But this issue just burns me up. I had (have) great potential and I feel like it was wasted towing the N line for so long. Now I'm in the position of thinking of what I'd like to do for a career that's my choosing. Geeze, I'm 46 now.
I am totally stuck. I feel like Bunny in that I am an underacheiver as well (although Bunny seems like no underacheiver to me). I get the "not feeling competent as children" thing....only too well. BTW, I realize I sound childish. I actually started growing up when I cut ties with my Ns. But it's a process as you all know.
So jury, what's the verdict?
MM
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Hi thread,
Dang, mighty mouse, I thought that I had a checkered past in the work place! LOL
But it's been very frustrating for me because it seems like I was never heard. We'd have an office meeting, I would suggest something only to be told that my idea couldn't be done. Then lo and behold a year or two later my idea was implemented. Same thing with a guy at work that always co-opted my ideas like they were his own. I'd say something in a meeting. wasn't acknowledged and then the next week the guy would say exactly what I said like it was his own idea. He did this outside of work also and it was eery. I never challenged him. Now I would but I don't work with this person anymore :)
Always felt like I was invisible is what I'n trying to say. I am intelligent and capable but never made a big mark and wasn't good at sucking up to the bosses and such. Never good at office politics.
Looking ahead.
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bunny - you are always so wise on your posts i'd never call you an underachiever either.
MM - after all the difficulties i have had with my own career i'd never presume to sit in judgment of anyone! isn't it incredible how we find ourselves doing something for years and years that someone else picked out for us when we were young? but i've been learning how deep the mental programming can be - it goes to the core of who you think you are and what you perceive your possibilities in life to be. i think this is a difficult issue even for people who did not have N parents or influences, but having an N can definitely undermine you when you are thinking about making career changes. it is a long process - i'd say my career shift has been a series of small steps over the past two years - but it is never too late to start.
i think my N mother had an influence on my becoming an 'overachiever' at all the wrong things. i had extreme pressure through childhood to bring home perfect grades and scores, to get into the best university, to choose a 'prestigious' job, to make a lot of money. i was harshly punished for getting anythign less than perfect grades, but I was also punished for asking for help if I was having trouble. i was a trophy - an object to brag over to friends and a way to compete with her siblings. i ended up in a high pressure career that was unsuitable for me but was extremely hard to leave because it didn't make 'sense' for me to want to leave. it was also hard for me to work through my own fear and confusion to understand what a more suitable career would be. like bunny, i didn't feel competent. i had no sense that i could be happy at work - i thought i was doomed to be unhappy in my career because i had never been happy and my choices were not really my own.
i'm slowly trying to change my ways, one small step at a time.
claris
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Claris,
Thank you for the encouragement. I need it. :)
I hope I can figure out what I want to do when I grow up someday..... maybe some professional help to get going.
MM
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Bunny,
You don't seem like an underacheiver to me. Do you work in the field of psychology?
Sonia
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Sonia,
Believe me, I am an underachiever, at least in the area of career. I don't work in the field of psychology. I'm not a therapist or psychologist. I'm a very lowly worker, not achieving my potential in the slightest.
I'm very gratified that you guys don't see me as an underachiever. :)
bunny
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Phew...for"underachievers" MM and Bunny you certainly are overachievers in the wisdom, advice and reading between the lines department.
Bunny, are you content doing what you are doing? I have a friend with a philosophy background but he drives a school bus by choice - gives him time to read and think.
MM - I have no doubt that you would be a real powerhouse if what you like to do lined up with your work. What do you like to do? What are some fantasies? Get the feeling that you are a damn good interior designer to start with. What's holding you back do you think?
How is it going Claris? Are you getting any closer to finding something that lights you up? I imagine you are exploring your interests with your therapist but what turns your crank?
Like you, Looking Ahead, I have done a lot of things in my working life. Of course it could just be my advanced age as well! By 54 I guess it is likely there would have been a few career changes. I've never felt solid in any of them and struggle mightly with self -esteem. Must confess that sorting mail at the post office is looking very attractive to me ( honourable work, not dissing this at all, in fact want to do it)...slide into retirement without the load of self-doubt that follows me around like Linus's cloud. I got a call a few days ago from a friend who is a writer asking me if I'd like to apply to be an editor of a children's magazine. In a way I would. I have some experience in publishing but it is a bit old, like me, so I am going to let it slide...but then I think, well, maybe, I could do it. Someone actually called me so maybe they know something I don't know. Agh, I think I'll let it go.
Les
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I have a friend with a philosophy background but he drives a school bus by choice - gives him time to read and think.
Oh Les,
That's what I'm doing right now. I have a philosphical bent and like to read, contemplate and watch the afternoon sunlight. I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round (John Lennon song).
MM - I have no doubt that you would be a real powerhouse if what you like to do lined up with your work. What do you like to do? What are some fantasies? Get the feeling that you are a damn good interior designer to start with. What's holding you back do you think?
Well, I haven't a degree, so would have to start from scratch. And then there's the money for a degree. I might be able to start an interior decorating business (no degree required but minimal training) and am looking into that. I have a way with spatial relations and colors and have a good eye. But it usually takes me forever to get going on something since I'm too worried about perfection.....I've thought of giving that up. But right now I am being a bit lazy and trying to reconcile myself with it. And I'm worried about unleashing myself on the public as it were (I am a bit too blunt - INTJ tendancy - and I hate small talk with a passion except for my H and close friends). I'm trying to improve my artless conversation skills, but I feel like a fraud.
Glad to see you back in as Les. Do you like teaching (I peeked at your small bio). I hope that was alright. Or are you looking to bust out?
MM
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I just wanted to say my fantasy is being a pillow fluffer at Crate and Barrel- okay, just kidding.
No, what I really wanted to say is that interior design requires a degree and interior decorating doesn't. I'm not sure I made that crystal.
MM
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Got it -the difference between the two. I have a friend who started with wall treatments and wallpapering and then added other elements as clients wanted them - no degree, just a passion and well...a sore back.
How cool! the bus! Ever since my philosopher friend started doing this, I've thought, hmmm, maybe I could do that too. He loves the time it gives him throughout the day to read...I think it is so great that he walked away from the chew you up and suck you dry world (hmm, sounds like my mother) he was in before. [contemplate and watch the afternoon sunlight]-now that's my idea of living at its best, although I'm sure it must come with some downsides as every job does.
Teaching - I teach ESL right now. It's a good job but a bit stressful at the moment ...not to mention the voice problem issue, so I only teach in the mornings now and rest this strangled throat in the afternoon. I've been advised by speech therapy to get a special mike to help me project my voice ( oh I know, the irony) I think being raised by N's leaves you exhausted. A friend mentioned this about being raised by alcoholics, also my situation..that we are so tired as adults. I think it's why I am seeking a quiet job where I don't have to perform all the time (a lot of demonstrating the language, as well as a lot of listening and helping with pronunciation, grammar etc) Being an INFP as well, perhaps teaching is the wrong profession?
I think it is a real gift -to be able to feather a nest beautifully - I have no frigg'n idea...as if I'm blind or something but like good chocolate, I know it when I taste it.
There are great books on Perfection - Addicted to Perfection, I believe is one. It is so crippling. I'm sure you've tried to release yourself from its grip. Read any good books on the subject?
Good to hear you are looking into interior decorating - I have this picture of you in your red cape sitting in a splendid livingroom! Keep us posted! Just also wonder if you enjoy your current occupation? Does the rhythm of the day suit you?
Les
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Hi everyone, may I join in?
I am a booksmart, people stupid person also. Never got office politics etc though I could suck up to my boss and teachers very well. guess where I learned that? :roll:
It wasn't until very recently that I learned about the real effects of being invisible. I thought I was just a loner, didn't realize the full invisibility of it all. I realize that I sabotaged myself in different extracurricular areas because unconsciously I learned that it was dangerous to draw attention to myself. Either my father or my brother, and occasionally my mother would pound on me verbally, make fun of me, or make snide remarks to undercut my confidence. It was okay to make good grades as long as there was no fuss about it (they expected this of my siblings and myself, but no rewards as that would make the others feel bad...ugh!)
I had the potential to really excel and am just now trying to coach myself into ignoring the feedback, which is really just jealousy, of my family talking in my head. They say the stupidest things when they are really competing for the same things I want. So what's wrong with me wanting to stand up and be counted?
Even now, when they try to sound "encouraging" it sounds hollow and fake. It makes me wince.
I also think certain occupations are devalued as a waste of time: artists, writers, etc. In my family, you must wear a suit and get in the business world. I was so ill-suited (whoops, no pun intended!) for that arena! One does not have to climb the corporate ladder to make a contribution to society, find gainful employment, and find purpose and hopefully happiness. Oi! I have more to say, but must sign off now.
Thanks for listening, Seeker
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Hi Seeker
Like MM, you describe yourself as book smart and people stupid. Was this a message you got from your family? Your posts show a very people wise person.
"I learned that it was dangerous to draw attenton to myself"
] I really relate to this. How can you shine, blossom when it seems to be a threat to other family members' egos. I remember one day last year I resolved to tell my mother something about myself. I told her that I was doing the crossword on the way to work, learning how to do it anyway. Well, she said those are sooo borrrrring, and she would only ever do the "cryptic" crossword because it challenges her mind. And that was the first and last time I've tried to tell my mother something personal about me. Wham!
[/quote] so true. I couldn't agree more. I'm reading a book "Narcissism - denial of the true self -by Alexander Lowen. He says, Narcissism describes both a pyschological and a cultural condition. On the individual level it denotes a personality disturbance characterized by an exaggerated investment in ones' image at the expense of the self. ...On a cultural level, narcissism can be seen in a loss of human values- in a lack of concern for the environment, for the quality fo life, for one's fellow human beings.
What is that wonderful quote by Nelson Mandela: something like...'and who are you NOT to shine your light brightly'.... must go find it!
'
ciao for now people-WISE person,
(as with logging in I am now trying to learn how to use the "quote" option and making a real mess of it. Can anyone advise?!
Les
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Hi Les,
I think I can help on the quote thing. Type the text you want in quotes on a new line. Hit the 'Enter' key again to separate the text from other text. Highlight (scroll over the text with your mouse to select it) and click the 'Quote' button. It puts [/Quote] at the start of your quote and at the end of your quote. Then when you submit your message, the quote goes into a pretty little box with the tag 'Quote'. That's it. Works the same for the other buttons. Have fun learning!
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Hi Les and Seeker,
Les, I too can't seem to get the quote thing to work. As it is I needed help from my H to even get the edit options and bold to work.
From you and others on the board it seems that quite a few of these Ns like word/crossword games and such. My NMom is big on Scrabble, Boggle, etc..I wonder if this has any great meaning? Oh well...I hope her response to you about the crossword didn't discourage you from it.
ESL...English as a second language? Forgive my pea brain. From what I've read teaching is actually a good profession for INFPs...teaching children especially. I would think it's mighty difficult without a voice though. Is that getting any better?
Seeker, my Mom is book stupid and people stupid.....she liked to parrot this saying of my Dad's because she knew my sister and I were big readers. Hey no matter that my sister is a PHD (unfortuantely she also has NPD). What a load of crapola that line is. I'm not especially people smart but at least I have empathy and compassion. That puts me ahead of her by a mile. You too have those qualities as is evident in your posts.
Bag the business suit. There are different personality styles for different reasons. There are none better than another. I bet these naysayers enjoy their entertainment (artists, all). And maybe they don't read books but need to. I think my Mom could do with a little reading to expand her world. Then maybe she wouldn't be so narrowminded and critical.
Getting back to Les, I thought the visual of me in a red cape sitting in a posh living room was a hoot. I've got the living room. Now all I need is cape! BTW I own an old car and don't buy new clothes or shoes hardly ever to feed my creativity. Otherwise I couldn't afford it. And I think I will check out the book you recommended. Thanks, you INFP sweetie. And when your Mom calls you F. Brain again...just remember that my moniker is Garlic breath....LOL. Maybe that will trigger laughter and she'll wonder why. Good luck going into the vortex this week.
MM
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Hi you guys,
thanks (!!!) for considering compassion and empathy to be people smartness. I guess Ns would consider it stupid to be able to think about other people instead of only ourselves :? . When I say people stupid I mean politics, which is knowing what I want and how to get it out of other people. Also how to protect myself against bullying and vicious gossip. I just check out. As Linus says in Peanuts: "I love mankind, it's people I can't stand." He had the NLucy as a sister. :shock:
Les, the crossword puzzle exchange reminded me so much of my NSIL. If you like something, she would find a way to burst your bubble with just such a comment as your mother made.
Thanks for the kind words. I really needed them today. Seeker
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Hi all,
Is this conversation still going on? I have been a little out of the loop.
In reading this thread, I noticed how lots are describing themselves as underachievers. I never would have guessed that about any of you. You are all people who I consider wise, articulate, and whose honesty I admire on this board. There is reallly soemthing to be said for being reflective and intentionally learning or at least pursuing how to repair our own broken selves and our relationships. I know people who don't give such things a second thought. The messages our parents give us really stick, though, don't they? If we are never good enough for them, it's hard to evaluate ourselves positively.
That said, I am there with you. Some people probably think I am an overachiever. I think I have them fooled! I actually don't see myself as extremely capeable or free-thinking. I know the discouraging sting of, undercutting comments from parents well enough too.
I am on the beginning of a career path, and I am wondering if it is the right one for me. I wonder what I want, and what I can do. I have questions about the motivation and the wisdom in my choices... I would love to keep hearing from you all on this subject. I can write more later too, if I get brave.
Peace, sjkravill
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Do write more Sjkravill! Would really like to hear what's on your mind, what careers you are thinking about. It's great to "flesh out" people - get a sense of people here.. Only recently have I begun to divulge anything about myself - always a listener - but I feel positively "showy" on this board, strutting around, telling people who I am! So go ahead, strut a little.
As a guide I refer to being your " authentic self." Not easy I guess to sort out but if we keep our hearts open to what we like, allow ourselves to breathe, relax, enjoy rather than being the artificial person we had to be... it's one step closer to aligning our careers with our true natures. I confess, it's Friday night and I've had some wine (can you tell MM,) so please excuse all babbling, errors and so forth) I wonder if we need a new acronym PEATMO. Please excuse anything that might offend! We are pretty careful here and I love the respect and care people show. in communicating.
Ok MM you're in trouble! None of that pea brain stuff -and as I typed ESL I thought it would be considerate of me to say what it was but forgot to do it. I live in Toronto -considered the most multicultural city in the world (that sounded like bragging, didn't mean it. PEATMO LOL!) But you are right. -English as a Second Language - it seems that every second person teaches ESL because Immigration is absolutely huge here. Voice is getting better and I do believe in part to the expressing and learning that is happening hear/here. I'm reading Narcissism -A. Lowen right now and he has a case study about a woman who "couldn't get any emotional sound out of her throat. Her throat was closed off." Holy moly -
Well enough about me, let's talk about ...me. - ahhh, the old N joke.
Just realized my quote from the last post didn't include the point - which was to say that our Western culture - by putting such a high value on money, money, high powered business, is in Lowen's estimation sick and Narsicisstic- a round about way of extending my support to you Seeker in taking the road less travelled in your family. Hooray to that! What road are you on. Care to elaborate? Or perhaps you have in other posts and I'm not up to speed.
So MM -do you get the summer off? I am almost done and can't wait to putter around the garden, ride my bike and watch the afternnon sun. - I loved that iimage in one of your posts.
Les
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Claris - you started this thread and yet I'm not really sure you've said what you wanted to say. Still there? Want to talk about some of your career issues? I think we would all like to hear more.
You remind me of stories my adult Chinese students tell me about schooling and pressure in China. In fact some of them came to Canada to try to minimize the pressure on their children a bit.
What a trap your mother set. Good to hear you are beginning to open up the leg hold and taking a step.
Les
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Hi everyone! I've been reading posts for a while and even posted a couple of times so you might remember me. :D
I wanted to respond to this post because I believe my childhood has significantly affected me in the area of education / career.
First of all, let me say that I am very lucky because my biological mother raised me until I was almost 7 years old, when she passed away from cancer (she was 28 years old.) It wasn't until a few months later that my father married my stepmother who, it turns out, is N.
So from my mother I gained a sense of positive self-worth and the sense that I could acheive whatever I wanted.
From my stepmother I learned it was dangerous (severe beatings) :x if I excelled or did too badly. If I did too well it meant she wasn't the "goddess" of EVERYTHING so that was deadly. If I did too badly then she couldn't brag on what a wonderful parent she was so that was dangerous too.
So now I have this dichotomy within...I feel I CAN achieve and I go so far...but then I hold myself back from meeting my full potential.
Does anyone else have this dynamic from their N childhood?
Ishana
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Sjkravill,
My full time job is now reflecting and repairing my broken self as you say. The problem is it doesn't pay well LOL. Not in monetary terms, but in emotional and esteem terms it's paying handsomely.
Les,
Just realized my quote from the last post didn't include the point - which was to say that our Western culture - by putting such a high value on money, money, high powered business, is in Lowen's estimation sick and Narsicisstic
I think this is true. Instead of being satisfied with a job that has dignity, we are all looking for high powered careers. It's now gotten to the point that our president thinks that we should let illegal aliens (I hate that term - it sounds so impersonal) in to the country to do the jobs we Americans don't want to do. When did it become bad to do just simple work that you get paid for. BTW I haven't formulated a political opinion on the above illegal alien question. Since I live in Texas, we have a large number of Mexican workers and they are extremely hard working, so I just don't know.
I think some of the question of if we are or are not under acheivers stems from the thinking we got from Nparents. I actually am part owner of a travel agency and service my own clients from home, but I still don't feel successful. And I've travelled all over the world. So I either need a realignment in thinking as you mentioned, or I need to align my interests with a career. Easier said than done of course.
And Seeker, I've always had a deadly fear of drawing attention to myself but that's starting to change. I'm not sure how much that has to do with the Nquotient or my personality type.
In the meantime, I'm still searching and watching the afternoon sunlight. And I bicycle with my H in the daytime when it's not too hot. And I'm reading "Anna Karenina" with Opie's book club. It's those darn feminists that said we had to do it all. Let's blame them LOL.
MM
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Ishana, Didn't mean to leave you out. Goodness.
So now I have this dichotomy within...I feel I CAN achieve and I go so far...but then I hold myself back from meeting my full potential
Very elegantly and succintly put.
MM
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Hey all!
I don't know if this topic is still of interest. I have wanted to post, but it has taken me at least a week to work up the courage to talk about this... Isn't that funny? Why should careers and work be threatening?! I have also been trying to process my thoughts... So, if you still want to listen, I think I may finally be ready to talk. Try as I might, I still may not be very articulate or organized! Here it goes...
OK, ready? Promise not to stone me?
All of my life I have felt "called" to ministry. I grew up with church as the one place that seemed to accept me and encourage me.
Now I am 22. I have graduated from college, and in the fall am headed, as most everyone expected, to seminary....
But now, I have all of these questions!!!
NOTE: If you are a very traditional Christian, I am NOT trying to offend!!! It might be wise not to read on if you are a fundamentalist. Please don't respond with intolerance!
Now, I know the church. I know it has literally burried the history of women and the value in women. It pretty much excludes gay and lesbian people, it is So patriarchial and traditional... I am way to radical for this! I am not strong enough to be radical in a traditional setting.
The local church can be a wonderful place, but it, probably like most organizations, is can be mean, and aflicted... It is very political, there are always money problems, and always people who want to control. I don't know if I want to spend my life in this work. I don't know if I have the endurence!
I also know more than a few pastors who have major boundary issues themselves. I wonder if this career draws people who have such aflictions. I wonder if I have such issues. My hunch is that I struggle with authority, and with setting limits. I would never want to hurt anyone or create dependancy. I would not want to do this work if it were about my need to be loved.
I know that spiritually, I have more questions and fewer answers each day. How can I help others with the theology of suffering, how can I help others to define God? I can scarce deal with my own spiritual issues.
Part of me wants to work in Urban settings. I am with children in urban ministry this summer. I love it, and it is hard, exhausting work. There is not much money, and lots of marginal people...
Another issue, is that I am interested in so many different things. I am interested in academics, I am interested in Social Work, I am interested in feminism, in counseling... I am actually currently planning on a dual degree in Social Work and Divinity. Why am I doinng this? Am I trying to be an over achiever? Do I just want more options? Am I going to overwhelm myself?
I am fighting the idea that I have to be married to a single career. Yet, I have a hard time not feeling like I am speeding down a road without any brakes. If not this, than what? I don't really know how to go about career discernment.
The issues my parents contribute are similar to y'alls. A sense of deep inadequacy, fear of making mistakes, fear that I will never pick something that will be a happy choice, fear of being judged harshly...
Indecision... A constant nagging critical inner voice, that I have to intentionally try to quiet.
Well, I guess that's all I have to say for now on that subject...thanks for waiting for me. Thank's for letting me vent my anxiety!
Peace, sjkravill
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Hi Sjkravill,
I know this probably won't help much, but I don't think too many people know if a career is right for them before the fact. In other words, you might not really know until you are "in it". You may indeed find that the ministry is not for you. But that doesn't mean you will have failed, or that you should be judged harshly. Of course, as is usually the case, you will be harder on yourself than anyone else.
Fortunately for you, you are only 22. Most of us on this board are way beyond having the luxury of even being in your conundrum. After establishing a family, it's pretty hard to even think about what you want to do, it's more of a question of what you need to do.
As far as questioning the patriarchal attitudes of Christianity, I think you are wise to question. That IMO makes you better spiritually if not an ideal church leader. And it seems that a lot of church leaders are more interested in the political and financial aspects of church than the actual spirituality. So you may find that another avenue is better for you.
I think it's important to just forge ahead. You will makes mistakes. You may not be able to narrow down a career. But I feel sure that since you are already so aware, you probably have a better chance than most. And in the forging, new, perhaps never thought of avenues may open to you. But taking action is better than worrying and certainly better than not doing it at all.
Foist yourself on the world without apology young blood!
Nassim
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That IMO makes you better spiritually if not an ideal church leader
I meant a traditional church leader. Maybe you will be a non traditional church leader if you find the right setting.
Nassim