Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: alone48 on January 05, 2008, 03:18:48 PM
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Lollie posted in a previous text about the "choosen" (spouse,BF) relationship with an N and the "unchoosen" (children,parents, siblings etc) and I have to say it put things in a different perspective. I came to this board mainly because of a relationship with an N/ supposed bf. After reading for quite sometime, I believe my father and ex were N's but not to the degree of N the bf. If you have been abused all of your life by a parent/sibling the pain certainly would be different than a love relationship that you chose and could have walked away from (another issue unto itself), so I am begining to undersand why my pain is different, this person will eventually fade from my life, but parents and siblings are pretty much a lifelong haul.
Though the pain of both hurts just as much, there are so many different dynamics in each relationshp. You all have wisely shared with me from your perspectives and it has helped, but understanding these two differences have clarified it for me.
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Dear Alone,
My M is an N. I married an N ish H. His F was a N. I think that many people will find what you did, Alone, that if you have an N b/f, there are probably N's s/where in the past.Just a thought. Ami
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My mother is image-conscious, but not to a point of lacking empathy. she TAUGHT me empathy actually.
My step-dad who raised me was paranoid-schizophrenic/ocd, ocpd
I married an N, have a daughter who has N traits at times, but my worst experiences with N's and dysfunctional people who threatened to destroy me, were the people i met online in a chat forum.
My solution to any N problem has been and always will be, STAY AWAY FROM THEM...NO CONTACT. I don't care what guilt they try to put on you, what promises they make you. Stay away from them. They are deadly.
Now, in cases of ACON, I realize that some of you still have the N's in your life. My advice is still, if they are causing you personal pain and confusion, FLEE THEM if at all possible. Relationships with N's even when you are an adult-child of one and especially then, are not for the person who has not yet individuated completely, cannot stand on his/her own, cannot speak up for his/her self and cannot walk away from it still being secure in who YOU are.
my view,
~Laura
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I really appreciate the differentiation between chosen and unchosen (Thanks Lollie and alone!)
For me they became intertwined in the sense that eventually I chose a partner who was just like my N-mother. He was SO much like her, from the surface charm, good looks, popularity and generosity, to the deeper cruelty, rage attacks, impossible-to-please attitude, the cheating, and controlling nature behind closed doors. .
But the chemistry was probably what got me hooked, and kept me hooked. It was something so deep for me it couldn't be defined or explained to concerned friends. I suppose it boiled down to the fact that I had been groomed for that relationship since birth by my mother, and it `felt so right'. Lol.
Towards the end of my struggle out of that situation, it twigged with me, that it was so hard to reject someone who so closely resembled my mother. I had unwillingly, then willingly, spent my whole life loving her and supporting her in ways I didn't always see. Her expectations of me defined my feelings about myself, and even when I rebelled, I was rebelling against being like her.
There was no easy way out of the relationship without dismantling my very fabric as a person. In actual fact, I wasn't able to succeed. The relationship ending was prolonged, messy, and dreadful. I used my head enough to go into self preservation mode, but it was in spite of my feelings..
I am very guarded around my mother, and avoid giving her power over me. I suppose my weakness is that I beleive in respecting one's parents, no matter who they are. I couldn't cut contact with her without a very good reason, such as overt abuse. I choose distance and diplomacy instead, because this prevents her behaviour from escalating into overt abuse.
i'm realy looking forward to hearing other experiences. It is a topic dear to my heart. Thanks ALone!
X bella
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Lollie posted in a previous text about the "choosen" (spouse,BF) relationship with an N and the "unchoosen" (children,parents, siblings etc) and I have to say it put things in a different perspective
Thank you very much, for this thread topic, Lollie and Alone,
I read your posting, Lollie, with great interest.
Unchosen : relates to my parents and sibling
Chosen: relates to my now exNH and also, I have come to realize during the last year, someone who chose me out as a friend.
During my enlightenment and learning process, I realized and accepted, with startling awareness, just how my exNH had chosen me.
Especially, with reference to how he befriended my mother, from the very beginning of our 'courtship'
Upon reflection, working with the Unchosen and the Chosen aspect, in unison, to a certain extent, has been extremely helpful, and enlightening.
Love, Leah
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A while back, I had a relatively short, though completely devastating (financial, emotional, physical, psychological) relationship with an N guy. I discovered much later on about NPD and have realized that I come from an N family (Nmom and Nsis; co-dependent dad). In discussing the N relationship with a therapist once, he told me that I would never have become involved with an N if I wasn't used to that kind of behavior from being raised in an N family. He said that Ns tend to choose their victims in relationships and that normal, healthy individuals who didn't grow up in that environment would run, not walk away from an N relationship. It's not a conscious thing. It's just that when you were raised by an N, that kind of interpersonal interaction is all you know so when an N walks into your life, it doesn't seem strange. It's what you know. To those not raised in N families, behavior exhibited by Ns in relationships would be very strange indeed, and totally unacceptable.
In other words, one of the key reasons you "choose" an N or allow yourself to be "chosen" by an N in a personal relationship is precisely BECAUSE of your "unchosen" N family.
Just FYI.
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A while back, I had a relatively short, though completely devastating (financial, emotional, physical, psychological) relationship with an N guy. I discovered much later on about NPD and have realized that I come from an N family (Nmom and Nsis; co-dependent dad). In discussing the N relationship with a therapist once, he told me that I would never have become involved with an N if I wasn't used to that kind of behavior from being raised in an N family. He said that Ns tend to choose their victims in relationships and that normal, healthy individuals who didn't grow up in that environment would run, not walk away from an N relationship. It's not a conscious thing. It's just that when you were raised by an N, that kind of interpersonal interaction is all you know so when an N walks into your life, it doesn't seem strange. It's what you know. To those not raised in N families, behavior exhibited by Ns in relationships would be very strange indeed, and totally unacceptable.
In other words, one of the key reasons you "choose" an N or allow yourself to be "chosen" by an N in a personal relationship is precisely BECAUSE of your "unchosen" N family.
Just FYI.
Dear Sunblue,
Thank you for sharing with such clarity, you have explained it perfectly.
The therapist you mentioned was seemingly in tune with N's.
As an unchosen whose first boyfriend clearly chose me, the realization of which, ceased the continual beating up of myself over getting married to him, at a young age, and not understanding the 'why' and 'what' of all endured during my long marriage.
So glad to know that your relationship with the N guy was short, though nonetheless, it must surely have been devastating for you, with much Nworkings impacted into a short period of time.
Dear Lollie,
Isn't it weird that as hard as we try, we still end up finding the one partner who will challenge us the most?
Yes, it most certainly is weird, and, for my future, a concern that I don't meet someone who is a challenge, which is why, I am not keen on dating, despite having reached enlightenment and being reasonably equipped and informed.
Daunting prospect! :)
To be honest, I have been wondering lately, as to whether I want the hard work of building a relationship with someone new. Simply because relationships require just that, working at, together, hopefully, in a healthy reciprocal way.
Sincere good wishes to you both,
Love, Leah
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Hi Leahs:
Thanks for your comment. Yes, my relationship was "relatively" short but it was truly devastating. He was not only NPD, but also a psychopath (clinically) and severely bipolar. He turned out to be a criminal who was wanted in a number of of states. He had hurt many, many women. He bankrupted me, hurt me physically, threatened my life and those of my family and devastated me completely. So Ns can cause so much damage. I felt a lot of shame. A lot. Still do. But now, after understanding NPD and my family N origins, I understand better how it could have happened.
The damage incurred by Ns knows no bounds....but I am glad you are out of your N relationship. Remember, not everyone in this world is N...it just seems like it to us :)....
Hope you can get out there and meet one of the nice ones.
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Hi Leahs:
Thanks for your comment. Yes, my relationship was "relatively" short but it was truly devastating. He was not only NPD, but also a psychopath (clinically) and severely bipolar. He turned out to be a criminal who was wanted in a number of of states. He had hurt many, many women. He bankrupted me, hurt me physically, threatened my life and those of my family and devastated me completely. So Ns can cause so much damage. I felt a lot of shame. A lot. Still do. But now, after understanding NPD and my family N origins, I understand better how it could have happened.
The damage incurred by Ns knows no bounds....but I am glad you are out of your N relationship. Remember, not everyone in this world is N...it just seems like it to us :)....
Hope you can get out there and meet one of the nice ones.
Oh my goodness, Sunblue,
I am so very glad you are out of his reach now, Sunblue, truly I am, he sounds monstrous, not a kind thing to say, but true, by his actions.
Yes, I agree, that the damage incurred is always far reaching.
You are quite right, there are some nice ones out there, as I do see some nice ones interacting with their loved ones, and, it breathes hope of humankind into my heart.
Thoughts of stepping out in that direction is still a little daunting though. I would like someone to be a really good friend, first and foremost, who enjoys the same things as I do, and better still, has more interests besides, that I may enjoy also. Conversation; Communication Skills with Listening is firmly placed on the top of my 'wish list' :)
Many thanks,
Love, Leah
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RM, you said:
Now, in cases of ACON, I realize that some of you still have the N's in your life. My advice is still, if they are causing you personal pain and confusion, FLEE THEM if at all possible. Relationships with N's even when you are an adult-child of one and especially then, are not for the person who has not yet individuated completely, cannot stand on his/her own, cannot speak up for his/her self and cannot walk away from it still being secure in who YOU are.
Can you see the double-bind of this situation? Being able to individute (separate from the relationship with you parents), stand on your own (I take this to mean psychologically, not financially), and speak up for yourself are the very things that an N parent grooms you NOT to do. You are treated, from birth, not a a separate human being with needs, wants, and feelings of your own, but as an extension (an "It") of the N parent. You are taught to be your parent's audience, mirror, and in some cases your parent's parent. In many cases, your very survival as a child depended on doing these things for your N parent. It is extremely difficult to see hwhat is happening because it's in the very air you have breathed since the day you were born. If you're lucky, you may be able to see this and break the spell before you get into a love relationship with someone with a PD. Some people break the bond only when stheir ympoms of anxiety and depression become so intolerable that they seek treatment for that. If they are lucky, and their T knows something about what it's like to live with a PD'd person, they will hopefully take steps to individuate and find their voice.
Dear Lollie,
You have said such profound things ,here.I should take your post(above) and use it as a map to separate from my N M. It is brilliant,Lollie-----A plus. I am waiting for more wisdom. Love Ami
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Lollie,
I am so sorry for deleting your post along with my original thread. I guess maybe I should have copy/pasted your post before deleting the whole thing. I didn't think about it at the time. Please forgive me, as you have a lot of really neat info here to share.
yes, I sure do understand the plight of the narcissistically abused child and even the borderline ones. My heart goes out to those children and to the adult-children. My issue of frustration comes when I see adults in their 40's, 50's, 60's still living in those childish defense mechanisms, because they wouldn't go get help for it or take medicine that can help them think slower and clearer.
Someone asked in a different post, if I get upset because it makes ME uncomfortable. i'm going to be honest with you, YES, ExACTLY. It is very uncomfortable seeing someone old enough to be my grandmother, behaviing like a 4 year old in their reactions, or having someone watch every move I make and commenting about it all day long, because they are so insecure that they are afraid of what will happen next. It's frustrating seeing women who look and behave like the opposite sex because their parents wanted a boy/girl, to a point that the person has no clue how to be what they actually are gender-wise.
I'm not trying to be cruel here to anyone who is suffering in this way. I'm trying to be real as the person who is on the other end of it at times...the "counselor" if you will (or even if you won't). iI am not alone. I have spoken with people who know these people that did not get the help. It makes them uncomfortable to be around them too.
I do feel it should be mandatory that people who were abused, get into some form of counseling and not be allowed to tell people "i don't need it. I'm fine on my own." Too many have slipped through the cracks over the years. That makes me sound a bit dictatorial and maybe i am, but honestly, in this society there is no reason for an adult person to have to continue to struggle through life as a child in an adult's body, any more than there is an excuse for illiteracy in the USA.
As much as that child was once victimized and turned into a borderline personality or whatever, when they are older and befriend people and those people are subjected to all their strange, upsetting, flip floppy reactions, it's also not fair to those people either. That the once-victimized now becomes your victimizing friend, boyfriend, husband, wife, etc, doesn't make it any less abuse toward you either.
It's kind of like "hey, your drug-addicted son RAPED my daughter." I can FEEL your pain at having a son struggling on drugs, but once it touches ME or my children, then it's a bit harder to see you or him as a victim anymore. "Go get help or something," is how I feel at that point.
I've BEEN in a relationship with both a bpd and N. What was done to me because these women didn't fully recover from their abuse, was also abuse. Because I bring it up every now and then, does not mean I didn't forgive it. I did forgive. That does not mean that it was ok because they were abused as children, for them to abuse me. It also doesn't mean that I didn't want to go and SHAKE the tar out of their abusive, neglectful so-called parents either, because their abuse of their child, then was perpetrated on me.
I guess i see people that are still in contact with extreme abusers, as not using wisdom, depending on the situation. I am a HUGE Detatchment fan, if not N/C.
WHy would the Boy Called IT even WANT a relationship with his "mother" after what she did to him, especially once he KNEW it was EVIL and cRUEL? I'm a logical person and it does not make logical sense to me.
~Just some rather harsh, passionate, angry thoughts here. I admit it, I'm weary of all the ones slipping through the cracks and crawling out of them to go and abuse others because their own issues weren't handled rightly. I feel mad about it.
~Laura
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I do feel it should be mandatory that people who were abused, get into some form of counseling and not be allowed to tell people "i don't need it.
Laura,
How would you flesh this out? When you say it should be mandatory, or that it should not be allowed--what would that look like in real life?
CB
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IT has been less difficult for me to leave boyfriend or husband, etc. My mother, it is becoming almost impossible. I try not minimize my contacts with her and i feel so bad and so guilty, that feel tha everything that happens to me it is a punishment of god for trying to neglect my mother.
Leaving parents is almost impossible.
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Dear Lupita,
I am gradually leaving my M. I read that the worse the parent is, the harder it is to leave. It doesn't make logical sense, but does make emotional sense, in a way.
I think that for us, we have to find some deep type of love in order to heal, from a person or God. Love is the only power that can break the bond of the type of M you had ,Lupita(IMO) Ami
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Lupita,
I would agree and that's why I said the difference with choosen or unchoosen needs to be identified. Though I don't feel that I chose N, I definetly could have RUN the other way and avoided alot of pain. Of course that is the clencher too, they have you before you realize they are N's and it's easy to say you could have left, but most people here know that's not the same as if we had healthy relationships to draw from.Not a choice with parents, siblings, etc. I believe my family life contributed to my being attracted to the N and possibly sending the vibes he needed to pick me, but thre is no one in my life that I can even like or come close to this N. All the rest was just the warm up exercise.
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CB, what it would look like is control to most people.
As soon as the authorities or whomever found that child acting strange as a result of the abuse or from the proof of abuse in the home, cameras would be set up in that home on a day the family did not have knowledge of. If abuse was seen at that point, the child would be taken from that parent, the parent would be evaluated, diagnosed and put on meds if needed. The child would not be replaced in that home until the parent showed VISIBLE signs of stability, and those cameras would REMAIN in the home for the rest of the child's time there. Everyone would be WATCHED if it were up to me...sounds creepy, but N's don't generally get away with things when they realize they are SEEN doing them by someone in authority that has power to really RUIN them in some way...be it loss of job, loss of drivers' license, or loss of children to abuse and forbiddance by law of having any other pregnancies or adoptions as well...it would involve a blacklist of the Narcissists, just like a form that shows child molestors in the area.
Sounds brutal, but in Laura's ideal world, it would go like that.
Lupita, i understand. The lady I've been counseling has been in the same situation, of feeling guilty if she doesn't honor her parents or punished by God if she doesnt, so she keeps ending up right back with the dysfunctional family and back in her "lost child" role there. I don't have any easy answers for that, other than to tell you that if you keep going back you will keep "going back wards"
~Laura
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Hi all:
Normally I wouldn't comment on something like this but after reading some of the posts on the board, I feel compelled to offer my two cents about a topic I feel strongly about.
In addition to being an adult child of an N family, I am clinically depressed. I was diagnosed a while back but in truth, I was depressed from the time I was a young child (it's just that in an N family, nobody noticed or cared to get me any help). Since my diagnosis, I have been in therapy with a number of different doctors. I have been on more meds than I can count. Currently, I am on meds. The meds don't really help me with my mood or depression, but it helps a little with my energy level so that I no longer have to sleep for 16 or 18 hours like I used to. I am well-read on the subject (both NPD and depression), having read countless books, articles and research papers. I have been in both individual and group therapy. In short, I have tried everything..
My point is this. It is very frustrating to hear from others who don't experience the same kind of debilitating depression to just "get help". Between the media, TV commercials and the general culture of our society, the prevailing wisdom says that depression (or related anxiety disorders) is highly treatable. All you need to do is go to therapy and get on meds and you'll get better. In many cases, this is true. Many people recover or greatly improved with meds and therapy. But NOT all. It is a proven fact that more than 20 percent of those diagnosed fall in the "treatment resistant" category and are not helped by meds and therapy. It is not for lack of trying on the patient's part. Yet, time and gain, they hear from others to just "go and get help" or get over it.
I know because this is the attitude I encounter over and over again. In our culture, people believe all you have to do is pop the right pill. It's just not true in every case. Wouldn't it be great if it were? No one wishes to live a life of pain. But sometimes it is beyond their control.
I get extremely frustrated with the attitude that I don't try hard enough or that therapy/meds will fix everything. I have a "health" brother who is not capable of offering empathy. He is one of those who believes you just keep trying meds and therapy. He doesn't want to hear about your feelings or pain or what caused you to be in the place you are. He simply doesn't want to hear it. Lots of people are like that. LOTS. I've come to believe that part of the reason for this is because people don't know how to deal with problems or issues that are beyond their control or which they can't solve easily. People like neat and tidy answers and solutions to problems. Something they can check off their to-do list.
Speaking for myself, as a serious and long-term depressive and adult child of an N family, the one thing that would help the most is a caring person who listens and cares enough to empathize. It doesn't matter that they can't solve what's wrong. A little empathy and sympathy goes a long way. Yes, that might mean listening to the same painful stories over and over again. Yet, it might mean there's not much progress in therapy. If someone were diagnosed with cancer, you wouldn't just give up on them because their cancer wasn't getting better. People have so much empathy for those with visible illnesses like cancer or diabetes, but none for those with mental illnesses.
If ever there were people who don't need others to give up on them, it's those with mental illness or those like us on the board who are victims of Ns.
What I've found is that this attitude from people is more about "them" than the person suffering. They feel frustrated or angry that people don't take their advice or that situations don't improve on their schedule. In my case, I've felt rejected and betrayed because people refuse to understand what I go through. They just want it solved. They don't want to hear about the person's pain or anxiety or hurt. If they give someone advice and they don't take it, they just give up, quickly justifying their actions of turning away from the person by saying, "Well, I tried. She/he just wouldn't listen." How frustrating is that!
I will end my little rant by saying one thing. Before you judge, before you walk away from someone, before you throw your hands up in disgust, put yourself in that person's shoes. Really, really try to imagine what it would be like to live your life filled with sadness and depression and despair with no treatment helping.
As the saying goes, walk a mile in my shoes.
Sorry for the vent. Just something I felt strongly about.
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Sounds brutal, but in Laura's ideal world, it would go like that.
Laura,
It is brutal. And very, very familiar.
You arent asking for any concern from me, I realize that. But your response concerns me. Several of your responses concern me.
I don't think I have anything else to offer you at this point. You seem firmly entrenched in your positions and you have every right to hold them. But I think I am very clear now about where you are coming from, and I just plain don't have anything else to offer.
CB
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Sunblue,
I empathize with you, I had worked in Mental health for over 16 years and only in the last five years have felt severe depression. My friends are not use to it and it makes them uncomfortable. When I cry then first thing they will say "are you on your med?" That was when I was having an honest emotion and this was from Mental Health professionals.I do take them and for the most part they were working, but since the fiasco with N I've had to switch several times. I do relate to what you are saying and I hope no one has to walk in our shoes, there are enough of us wounded as it is.
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No problem CB.
I merely answered a question.
As far as the dear poster who meds and counseling did not work for, I want you to know that I have heard the people who came to me, I have cried with them, prayed with them, and am still walking with some of them through their pain.
I was telling how it affects me, not demeaning someone who truly CANNOT help it that they are that way.
You are right that some of us want tidy answers at times, but it's not always cause we just want to be done with you, it's because it is painful to see someone spin wheels for years and years and never get anywhere. Who would want that for anyone?
I'm sorry you were abused by N's. I am GLAD you have read about it and at least learned why they were that way. I have no answers other than what I feel and believe and for you, that is not feasible or doable and it's totally understandable.
Keep on doing the best you can do. You will be in my prayers along with others who are "treatment resistant"...I can't even imagine.
~Laura
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lollie, I hear you. I lived in the Soviet Union for one year. I rememeber I was told that depression was only for idle people. My grand mother (rest in peace) used to tell me, go wash clothe, clean your house, look for something too do. You have too muhc time in your hands.
I am still depressed. I have heard that I should go volunteer. I work three jobs, play the piano, take dnace lessons. Still I am depressed. Sad and empty. I do not have time to go volunteer.
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rest my case. the "volunteer" thing has nothing to do with it.
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Leah, if you're reading this:
I hope you are able to find what you want. You are a kind soul and you deserve to find happiness on your own terms. If that's a new relationship with a healthy (and let's throw in rich, too!) man, great. If it's just kind of hanging out for a while while you decide what you want, I think that's great, too. I would bet that after all your experience, growth, and understanding, you could probably see an N coming from a mile away. Am I right?
Dear Lollie,
Thank you so much for your kind, encouraging thoughts, and words. And yes, you are right, I really do believe, now, that I could probably see an N coming from a mile away.
Can't thank you enough really, for the validation, of me, as a person.
Truly appreciated.
Just lately, I have wondered what it would be like to meet someone, a genuinely good nice kind man. There, I have bravely said it out loud!!
Every good wish and blessing to you,
Love, Leah