Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dawning on June 22, 2004, 08:05:29 AM
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Hello everyone. It has been awhile. I went to the USA for a week to reunite with some friends and I came back and was riding a great high from the companionship I felt there. My excitement stayed with me here and I found myself very social for a brief period of time. Now I have gone back into self-doubt mode on account of my experiences with a man. A man...which brings up Father's Day.
Many of you know the experiences I have had with my mother. She is still the same. I just ignore her now and place all her emails in a separate folder. I take everything she says with a grain of salt. Everything. She will likely do something horrendous in the future and I'll be left with that feeling of being the only one who sees her craziness but it is such a comfort to know I can post here.
My father is another story. He is something like this: if I said, "well, Dad, I am in the hospital with multiple fractures and the doctor doesn't know if I will walk again" the response I imagine getting would be, "well, I'm sure you will be fine. Just remember to be nice to everyone. Wife (not my mother) and I are going to play golf now and tee-time is at 2 so gotta go. Have a good day." I see that now. I see how deluded he is...that he thinks he was a responsible parent when nothing could be further from the truth. He left me with my mother when I was 4. And didn't want to have anything to do with me. Now that he is getting older, he must have felt compelled to email me before his death to feel better about himself. I can't see it any other way. He will talk at length about himself making no mention of anything I said in my emails unless he perceives it as a threat. I honestly have no energy for this so I stepped back to evaluate what I wanted. What I want - and it is that old letter writing thing again - is to write both of my parents a letter telling them that it stuns me how even though they were so obviously irreponsible, abusive and neglectful that they refuse - even now - to take one bit of responsibility and are still trying to *use* me in some way.
Bunny, CG, Learn, Michelle, MrT, Nic, Portia, Singer, TokyoJim, Wildflower, and ALL of you newbies and those I forgot to mention - looking forward to getting caught up on the posts. And getting back into things. I have gotten myself into a terrible mess in my head now and really need a few girlfriends to chat with here and go out with but there are none around me. Thanks for listening. One other thing: I am making a plan to go to Hawaii for the summer and check out living arrangements there.
Hmmm....I just realized that the sense of loss I have for my father is the tell-tale sign in every relationship I have with a man. I have programmed myself - or been programmed - to believe that they all go away. And they do. And so the loss goes on. And it gets worse and worse the older I get. And the emotional unavailability of the men I attract is just like my mother and father. Funny, that might explain why I have stayed in this space so long; that being the emotional unavailability of many I meet and want as friends. I think I have gotten out of the cycle of thinking I am fundamentally flawed or wrong but rejection is hard to take. It hits me like a ton of bricks and paralyzes me.
Thanks for letting me ramble. What do I want? I want a friend and a lover in the same person. Is that asking for too much? I am starting to feel deeply the hard-core trust issues I have with men and I do it so dam* well - attracting untrustworthy men and then getting obsessed over what I did wrong. Would writing my father help me break this cycle? I wonder....
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Dawning -
I'm so happy your back. I've missed you terribly!!!!! :wink: I got warm fuzzies and a "celebration" feeling when I saw that you had posted. Came straight here!
I am sorry that you are feeling so sad though - especially after such a great trip with friends (good for you!). Your father sounds like a very uncaring person. He must be totally self-absorbed to not see what a caring, compassionate, kind-hearted daughter he has in you. I think you hit the nail on the head though - I have heard from so many people (therapists, educators, etc) that our father (first male in our life) has EVERYTHING to do with how we view, interact with, see other males later in our life. Are you still going to therapy? I bet they would have great insight on that issue and also exercises for healing yourself from your father's damage. Or maybe Bunny will read this and have some insight....she always has great advice and insight. I'm sorry that I don't have any on that subject.
I don't think that it is too much to ask to want a friend and lover in the same person. It seems like a basic necessity to me - having a partner who is a friend and a lover. I also think that writing the letter would be greatly healing and as always, if you want our comments, post it here.
I am so glad your back Dawning! What a dear friend you are and I am senging you big big hugs and healing thoughts.
Missed you lots!
Michelle
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Thanks Michelle. Nice to know you care. My voice is wavering but I think it is because of lack of sleep and proper nutrition these days. I will write on this thread again in the next coming days because my head is not clear right now. I really appreciate your concern. I am going through alot of internal stuff right now as are we all. First thing is to get balanced and then find my voice and intuition. Luckily, I don't think they are too far down there this time and should be easy to retrieve. Your message is a great support. :) :)
<<<Big Hug>>>
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What do I want? I want a friend and a lover in the same person. Is that asking for too much? I am starting to feel deeply the hard-core trust issues I have with men and I do it so dam* well - attracting untrustworthy men and then getting obsessed over what I did wrong. Would writing my father help me break this cycle? I wonder....
Hi dawning,
Offering someone your love in a relationship is a very hard thing to do. I came to realize that it is just like giving someone a gift. You have that gift all wrapped up beautifal. You give them that gift, they tear it open, look at you and say "Yek"! You were so excited to offer them the gift and you sit with anticipation as they open it to see what is in the package. They said "YEK" and your anticipation suddenly turns into rejection.
You offer yourself in a relationship and if that person happens to walk away from the relationship, it suddenly becomes a matter of our short comings. I guess anyone in their right mind would begin to sabotage their relationships just to protect their own emotions. Kind of like "I am going to shove him away first so I wont get to attached to him and then he walk away from me." I have done this. I came to think that when I love someone I am giving them the ability to emotionally destroy me. When I finally learned to also give myself the ability to trust that this individual wouldnt do so was when I finally began to offer that beautifully wrapped gift with a very neatly placed bow on it. The package was complete when I realized that in order to receive love in a relationship I had to offer and I had to also be receptive to love.
I am not saying that when a relationship ends that I am not saddened or upset. I rationalize what happend and what went wrong. But I can also honestly say that I no longer think to myself "what did I do wrong, what didnt I have that they needed, why cant anyone love me am I unloveable, and what I did to sabotage this one." I just try to be grounded about all of the events that surrounded the breakup, not just what I did to cause the breakup.
Vulnerable is the best and foremost word that pops into my mind when I think of loving someone. You are saying to them, hey here I am, whatcha think of me? If they stick around then theyre saying, hey I gotcha babe and holy chit what a catch. If they run for the hills then that signals hey, gotcha babe and um, you aint such a great find..im so outta here. Well, lol, took me a few yrs to get it in my head that perhaps it was their malfunctions and not mine that made them move on.
Now I know it is healthy to throw this fish back into the sea and just wait for a nice, handsome fisherman to come along and reel me in. Oh did I mention I want him to be a very understandable person. I require that he give 50% and he receive 50%. Going dutch in a relationship leaves noone feeling like they spent a fortune emotionally on the other person. It leaves everyone feeling they giveth and they taketh and are grateful to have had the experience. I have remained friends with quite a few of my ex boyfriends. Hell I even fixed one up with a co-worker, lol. That was the best thing I could have ever done. They fit together like a tailored glove on a hand. He and I fit together great but as friends not as life long partners.
Feeling vulnerable is such a helpless feeling. Feeling rejected is such a worthless feeling. No wonder at times we choose to take the safe way out. Reject before being rejected. It saves us alot of emotional turmoil.
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Hiya Dawning, you know I'm with you. And your thread here has got me hooked, so may I ask Jaded a question while you recuperate? Thank you :D
Jaded, I'm enjoying all your posts. I have a question about when you said:
He and I fit together great but as friends not as life long partners
and this might sound dumb but I am serious and want to know what you think: how do you know? Why isn't a friend a life-long partner? I bet I'm not the only one who'd love to hear your view, coz you sound so down to earth and like you've lived. And I feel I haven't lived, not really. Did you find your life-long partner or are you happy still looking? Hope I'm not being too inquisitive, don't mean to be...thank you, P
Hi Portia,
Ty for the kind words. You are not sounding dumb by asking the question that you did. Let me see if I can explain it in a way that makes sense to me, lol. The man I was refering to is a wonderful man, heck he is a wonderful person. I love him dearly but it just wasn't there for me romantically. He made me laugh, he made me smile, he treated me like a lady deserves to be treated, and we have a bond that can never be broken. We have known each other for probably 7 yrs. We began to date and we had alot of fun together but I just had no romantic feelings for him. He is very handsome, inteligent, and funny as all get out but I felt like I was kissing my brother, ew, thats a gross thought, lol.
I was very open with him and told him I loved him dearly as a friend but I just didnt feel that he and I could be any closer in a couple relationship. I also told him that I did not want to harm our friendship nor did I want to hold him up from finding a wonderful woman who was waiting for her dreams to come true. He is a very lovely person and he deserved all that a woman has to give. I could not lie to him while I tried to force romantic feelings towards him. He understood and we never looked back.
I know he will be a life long partner to me, but only on a friendship level. As far as a lover or a mate, nah, I just felt or should I say did not feel those feelings for him. You know, I knew I made the right decision when I fixed him up with my coworker. Never one time did I feel jealous or hurt when I seen them together. All I felt was happiness for the both of them. He was what she had been hoping for and dreaming about for a very long time. He is a wonderful man and I get joy out of knowing that I played a part in their happiness.
You also asked me if I had found my life long partner. That is a very simple question you asked Portia with a very complicated answer. I have a very unique situation here and to be honest with you, I can't answer that question for you because I dont know that answer. One day I will share my experience so that I can receive some feedback or comments.
Right now there are alot of milestones I must pass before I am ready to share with anyone. I am not a perfect person or an unrealistic person. I am a person who speaks my feelings and I speak them with the truth and without the intention of hurting anyone.
You dont fret about being out of line asking those questions. There was not one intrusive thought in my mind when you asked. As far as your comment about me living, oh I have lived but most importantly Portia, I have learned from living. I have made many a mistakes but I can also say this about myself. The mistakes I have made, I blame nobody else for them. I actually dont think of them as mistakes, I think of them as wrong choices. Everyone has choices in their lives and at times I have made the wrong choices but I always, always pick my sorry ars up by the straps on my britches and I work to never forget the outcome of the poor choice I made so as to never repeat them.
I just feel that life is one big learning experience. I will never know the answeres to all of my questions nor will I ever know the reasons for why things turn out the way they do. But I just know that somehow, someway when you think that you can not make it through another day, sunset occurs and before you know it, lord and behold comes the sunrise. You make it to the next day and then the next.
I waisted to many yrs trying to figure out how to read everyone and in what ways did they their needs need to be met.
I am not always right in my life but all I ask of anyone is that if they feel I am wrong, please show me how I am, share with me in a civilized, decent, educational manner how it is that my way of thought wrong.
Im open, honest, and very very wise to the world and some of the wicked people who live in it. There is nothing worse then playing a game without any rules to follow. So when people begin to play games with me and they havent laid out the ground rules to their games, um I pack up my gear and get the hell out of dodge. Ive been there done that and aint gonna play those games again.
Portia, what good is life if you dont live it? Live your life the way you desire life to be. Whether it be love or goals or just as simple as what you want to eat for dinner. Do what your voice inside of you wants to do or you will be a slave to someone for the rest of your life. I want to slave to reach my OWN goals and desires as well as for those who are in my life. I give without expecting much back but when someone crosses me more then a couple of times, pfft, I know when its time to call it quits. I look out for those I love but most importantly, I began to look out for my own well being too.
You have wonderful posts too I might add Portia. Everyone has so much to offer to everyone in their posts. I read them all and I know I am horrible about replying but at times I just like to sit back and read the replies so I can continue to learn lifes ways.
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Dawning,
Your father sounds seriously self-absorbed. Writing him would only get you more of the same treatment. If you're in therapy, you can work on your father issues there. Your actual father can't help you. He's far too limited. When you can emotionally separate your father from other men, you can attract a decent man. Probably you want someone responsible, reliable, honorable, warm, generous, etc. Don't settle for anything less. What happens is we try to recreate our childhood drama with an adult self-absorbed man, hoping this time we'll win the drama. But it's best to abstain from these repetitions. Sometimes it takes outside help to do it.
bunny
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Hi All,
Just wanted to weigh in on this love issue. I thought I would never find my wonderful H (married now 13 years). But I have a different technique which may not work for some, but maybe will for others.
That is I choose with my head. Unlike many, I have to satisfy my head first and then my heart follows. I have felt passion with many, but I do not trust it. My best relationships have always been with the head first. Now I know that is anathema for many, but when I am physically attracted, I never make a good choice.
My attraction for my husband grows everyday. And he was willing to be vulerable (in a smart way) and didn't invest in me too much until he was sure of his intentions and then flat out asked if I loved him. I didn't know I did until HE was willing to ask. But I had had enough time to see him in action...his thoughtfulness, his eveness (very important for me growing up in an unpredictible N house), his honesty, his caring, his patience (Lord knows I needed that), his moral compass, and his calm.
I am tearing up writing about this wonderful man. He is so precious to me. I didn't think he was particularly good looking at first and now his face is the cutest, handsomest face I know (that doens't mean I can't appreciate the good looks of the carpenters on all those home improvement shows LOL).
But my love for him has grown exponentially over the days and years. It's hard to beleive I can love him more each day.
Sorry to go on so long and good luck to any and all pursuing love.
MM
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I'm writing this in the 2nd person for some reason. Sounds right...helps me to generalize and remove myself from the situation to see more objectively.
You meet a neighbor, you hang out a little, you share the same pub and then you inevitably have sex cause I felt a connection and it was there for both of us. After that, you communicate a bit via email and text messaging and then it stops. You ask him in an email if you want to hang out and that is when he stops replying. You meet his friend who lives in your building and friend says could be that he is freaked out by the age difference - you're older than him by more than 10 years. Maybe he doesn't want to tell me that because he doesn't want to hurt me. But all I have to go on are maybes. People say things like "it is not worth it to get hung up" and I am but not on him. I just can't handle the not knowing cause that is what I got from my parents all my life. And I don't want to feel about this person the way I feel about my father. Has anybody else gotten the silent treatment from men after sex? This has never happened to me before. I swear this voice I have now sounds so adolescent. :? But ever since I became sexually active, I never had a problem with the guy wanting to see me afterwards. In fact, they became my boyfriends. Maybe I should analyze why we broke up. It seems so long ago and then I came to live here with a man and we broke up and he left. And I stayed. Had two boyfriends since then. One is my on again/off again but cultural issues leave me feeling unfulfilled.
As for the silent treatment, I feel like I am pushing him for a response (and I don't like to think of myself as a pushy person but maybe I am in these cases. :? . Any response would be better than silence. His silence is making my brain overthink and twist in on itself. But that is my problem and I feel old/middle-aged for the first time when I know better than to get hung up on THAT. Complete waste of time. :P
Any comments from the men on the board too?
Yeah, Bunny and Michelle - therapy sounds great with the right therapist but after 4 years with the same woman and feeling like her speed was SO slow -and she wasn't analytical enough - I kind of overdid it on therapy and it started seeming like a waste of time and she listened but hardly said a thing so I felt pretty unfulfilled once I was ready to start tapping into uncharted territory. I spoke with her about this but she just listened to that too and didn't say a word...just stared at me. :x
Thanks to everyone.
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That was me, Dawning, in the post above. :)
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Dawning,
I hope I don't offend anyone when I share my feelings on this. I have been there done this myself dawning. I have been on the receiving end of the silence and I have given a few cold shoulders in my time. I just think that men and women see things from two different views. You know the old men are venus women are from mars dealio.
I think women look at things more from an emotional side of things and men view things from...........well I am short on answers with that side of things, lol. I just think that women get more emotionally wrapped up when they are intimate with a man and some men it takes time to emotionally mingle with a woman.
It is easy for me to sit here and tell you not to feel ashamed or embarrassed by the fact you slept with him. It is not me that feels the ole "wham bam thank ya maam." As I said before, been there done that. But you have to also think of this from other angles. Ok for example, maybe he just went through a horrible breakup and he had his emotions ran through the mill. Maybe he is embarrassed by something or perhaps feels like he said or did not say something right.
I can understand how you feel shunned or used. You have every right to have the feelings that you do. I would just try to also think of other reasons besides him rejecting you that could be causing his actions or should I say lack of actions.
I would love to also hear the mens point of views of this one. Like I said, I am short on answers on that one. Hell, if I knew all of the answers to the mens minds, I could make a fortune telling all you girly girls. Dang, sometimes people are like big jigsaw puzzles. You just have to throw all of the pieces out there and work to put them together. It is a frustrating and confusing task at times but when its all pieced together it feels like such an accomplishment!! :lol:
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You meet a neighbor, you hang out a little, you share the same pub and then you inevitably have sex cause I felt a connection and it was there for both of us. After that, you communicate a bit via email and text messaging and then it stops.
Sorry, I'm not sure who I am addressing, maybe all the women who wonder about men. Since you asked the questions, please don't run me off the board for giving you some insight into our little brains.
First of all men have a biological imperative to put as much sperm in as many places as possible (the younger the guy, the more this usually applies). That means we will lie to you to get sex, we will feign a great interest in you to get sex, we will go to great lengths to get sex. Now I am speaking generally. Obviously this isn't the case 100% of the time.
And I am always amazed that women fall for this. A relationship hasn't really been established and you are willing to have sex. Then you are looking for something more that we may not have to give at that time. But we aren't thinking about you or your feelings when we want the sex.
The great part is, you have all the control. You can say no. You can refuse to have sex until a relationship has been extablished. And if the guy doesn't stick around that long, he just wanted sex and will go to an easier place to get it. So if you just want sex..no strings..go ahead and do. And I won't insult you with all the potential downsides to having sex without committment. But you women do have all the control. And we are generally afraid of you emotionally.
Beleive me, men are quite simple creatures. My wife sometimes thinks I'm having very profound thoughts because my brow will be furrowed. I'm thinking about something electronic more than likely LOL. We do have emotions, but we don't usually just jump right in with them like women do. It would be better to be circumspect about who you let touch your precious bodies.
Now I will get off my soapbox and tell you that women are beautiful creatures and we should be in awe of you when a meaningful relationship exists.
I hope that wasn't too brutal.
Nassim
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You meet a neighbor, you hang out a little, you share the same pub and then you inevitably have sex cause I felt a connection and it was there for both of us.
Unfortunately, this is a classic "one-night stand" situation. Most men in pubs will assume that you're lonely or bored. They also assume a mutual agreement that this is nothing but a brief encounter.
I think he is freaked out by your pursuit and interest in a relationship. He has no interest in that. As far as he's concerned, there was no commitment on his side. When you get silence from a man after a sexual encounter, there is no mystery to it. It means, "I'm not interested." The best thing to do is move on. Run like hell, in fact.
I think you may have to write this off as a learning experience and look for a decent therapist. The woman you describe sounds like she was way out of her depth and shouldn't even be in practice. I'm sorry you suffered through her incompetence. There are much better therapists out there. You have to keep searching until you find one. I found mine through my medical insurance.
bunny
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nassim is right.
bunny
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I think he is freaked out by your pursuit and interest in a relationship. He has no interest in that. As far as he's concerned, there was no commitment on his side. When you get silence from a man after a sexual encounter, there is no mystery to it. It means, "I'm not interested." The best thing to do is move on. Run like hell, in fact.
This is good advice but it does not apply to my particular case completely. He is younger than me. I thought of him as a younger friend to hang out with...had no interest in sex until one day when I did find him sexually attractive after quite a few meetings - NOT at a bar. We share the same pub which I go to once a week or once every two weeks or if there is a special event. That is why I can't figure out why he would stop speaking to me...does sex change a friendship so much??? I am interested in being his friend...more than in having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship if I had to choose. For my part, I should have told him how I felt instead of being so spontaneous.
please don’t value yourself through sex…you don’t do you? I did (until about 2 months ago probably).
Portia, nice question. Actually, I value myself in my ability to have a common sense approach to sex. I don't attach the morality to it that many people in western countries do but I do expect respect to come along with the act of sex and - if it doesn't - then to me that reflects more on the character of the person who is disrespecting than the person who wanted to have an honest encounter.
I guess the person in question is shallower than I thought. I dunno. It is starting to seem that way. Don't really know on what basis he thinks he can practice esoteric insight meditation at this rate but it WAS a learning experience.
Interesting reply by Naseem and something else to consider certainly. But I guess I am in the minority here. I want real and honest relationships with people without judgement and disrepect. I can handle rejection - maybe the fact that I am in a culture that is alien to me - makes me feel more acutely about almost everything. And I am more sensitive than many people. But if I want something, I am not good at playing games to get it. I know that about myself. So I guess I may be single for a good while longer. And that is okay. I've obviously got major father issues to work out. Mother is driving me crazy with her stupid comments too. Grandmother was in the hospital recently and I get mom's rant about how grandmother can't expect "the hospital to be like the Waldorf Astoria" and why won't grandmother stop complaining. Funny thing is: my mother is calling HER mother "grandmother." How weird is that. Just a little aside.
The main thing now is to forget a little about this encounter. And learn from how I reacted. As usual, I would not be able to get to where I am now without being able to have the frank exchange I have found here. Will reply to the other posts in a little while. Have to do some work now. :)
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Dawning,
This sounds like an acquaintance..not a friendship. There's no mystery here as Bunny said. And since you didn't know him well and he was callous after sex, why do you want him as a friend anyway? It sounds like you didn't know him well enough to ascertain if he was friendship material. And you don't know him well enough to judge that he is a bad person either. He may attach some morality to sex even though he's being a cad. Why attach your sentiments of sex and then say he is shallow?
I don't think culture matters much. If there was a real true bond of friendship, these complications could be talked out.
I think as another poster said, chalk it up to experience and learn from it.
Sonia
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Thanks for your reply, Sonia. It was stated very gently. And you put into words this....
If there was a real true bond of friendship, these complications could be talked out.
Which is a painful part to deal with. That there is no bond of friendship where I thought there was.
Cultural frames of reference are different -there is no doubt about that - but he and I are come from a similar cultural background. Maybe that has served as an eye-opener too even though I can't anlaytically figure it out at the moment.
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Hi D,
Funny thing is, I wasn't trying to be gentle. You didn't quite take my meaning. Oh well.
BTW, I don't think the sex/morality equation is a Western value at all. It's a universal value. But I digress.
Sonia
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Sonia,
Although I didn't "take" your meaning as you intended...I appreciate your voice.
What meaning did you intend?
We could certainly get into a lot of differing opinions about cultural/sex/morality issues but I think most of the people on this board want to be healed by letting their voices be heard. And in using their voice to help others.
For me, I don't have any guilt feelings about practising safe sex as a single person. I don't do it often but when I do I always feel a connection even when one might not exist. These are personal issues of mine that likely have to do with the relationship - or complete lack of one - that I ever had with my father since the age of 4. It is something I have to look into in a non-judgemental environment.
Finding a good therapist is not easy. I am a little disappointed that after all the time I spent with mine, I ended up feeling talked-out or highly emotional when what I really wanted was to find the source of my pain that is/was keeping me stuck in certain areas. Over time, when I would leave my therapist's space...I would feel exhausted and upset rather than with any insight. She was helpful in certain areas though. I still beat myself up alot but I have more confidence than before.
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me above. forgot to log in. having a busy day. :roll:
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...I can't figure out why he would stop speaking to me...does sex change a friendship so much??? I am interested in being his friend...more than in having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship if I had to choose. For my part, I should have told him how I felt instead of being so spontaneous
Yes, once you have sex, it changes. After sex, the woman is instantly emotionally involved. The man is not necessarily emotionally involved. That is how men and women differ. No prior discussion with this man would have changed the outcome. You had sex with him, and that trumps any discussion.
Actually, I value myself in my ability to have a common sense approach to sex. I don't attach the morality to it that many people in western countries do but I do expect respect to come along with the act of sex and - if it doesn't - then to me that reflects more on the character of the person who is disrespecting than the person who wanted to have an honest encounter.
I don't believe this is very practical. If you have sex with a man without a foundation for a future relationship, you are vulnerable to his quick rejection or dumping. Men will interpret your common sense approach to sex very differently from your interpretation. To them, common sense means casual with no strings attached.
I don't know what you mean by an honest encounter. Maybe you can clarify that.
bunny
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Dawning,
In regard to esoteric meditative insight please see the following:
The third moral precept advises against all forms of sexual misconduct, which include rape, adultery, promiscuity, paraphilia, and sexual perversions. Actually, the Buddhist commentary emphasizes adultery more than anything else, but if we take into account the purpose and intention of the precept, it is clear that the precept is intended to cover all improper behavior with regard to sex. The broadest interpretation even purports to mean abstention from the misuse of the senses. The expression "misuse of the senses" is somewhat vague. It could refer to any morally unwholesome action committed under the influence of sensual desire or to the inability to control one's own senses. In any case there is no doubt that the third precept aims at promoting, among other things, proper sexual behavior and a sense of social decency in a human civilization where monogamy is commonly practiced and self-restraint is a cherished moral value.
For one reason or another, many young people in love are not able to enter into married life as early as they wish. While marriage is still some distance in the future, or even an uncertain quantity, these people enter into relationships, of which sex forms a significant part. This happens not only among adults, who must legally answer to their own conduct, but also among teenagers who are still immature, emotionally unstable, and tend to act in irresponsible ways. Peer pressure and altered moral values are an important contributing factor to the escalation of the problem. The trend toward extramarital sex has become so
common that it is now virtually taken for granted. Contubernal arrangements are becoming increasingly popular, and marriage is relegated to a place of insignificance, jeopardizing in the process the sanctity of family life.
In the context of these developments, the third precept becomes all the more relevant and meaningful. Unlike killing, which certain circumstances seem to warrant, there is hardly any plausible excuse for sexual promiscuity, except human weaknesses and inability to restrain the sexual urge. However, there is a distinction between sexual promiscuity and sexual relationship based on mutual trust and commitment, even if the latter were a relationship between two single adults. Thus one may begin to practice the third precept by resolving not to be involved in sexual activities without an earnest intention and serious commitment of both parties. This means that sex should not be consummated merely for the sake of sexuality, but should be performed with full understanding within the people involved and with mutual responsibility for its consequences. A certain level of maturity and emotional stability is necessary to ensure a healthy and productive sexual relationship between two partners. With the realization that there is a better and more noble path to follow than promiscuity, one may see the wisdom of self-restraint and the benefit of establishing a more lasting and meaningful relationship which, rather than impeding one's spiritual progress, may enhance it. Finally, if anything else fails to convince people of the danger and undesirability of sexual promiscuity, perhaps the phenomenal AIDS epidemic will. This may seem beside the point, since moral precepts and moral integrity are matters that concern inner strength, fortitude, and conscientious practice, not fear and trepidation based on extraneous factors. It is, nevertheless, worthwhile to consider the connection between promiscuous behavior and the AIDS epidemic and realize how strict observance of the third Buddhist moral precept could greatly reduce the risk of infection or spread of this deadly disease. Acceptance of this fact may also lead to an appreciation of the value of morality and moral precepts as laid down by the Buddha, consequently strengthening conviction in the Dharma practice.
Dharma
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Beleive me, men are quite simple creatures. My wife sometimes thinks I'm having very profound thoughts because my brow will be furrowed. I'm thinking about something electronic more than likely LOL. We do have emotions, but we don't usually just jump right in with them like women do. It would be better to be circumspect about who you let touch your precious bodies.
I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you big time because by your standards I think I can't even be classified as a man then !
I am certainly not 'simple' compared to anyother woman and I personally see myself as a victim of such stereotyping. I am a man and I certainly have insecurities/feelings/call it whatever you want and I will tell you what ? I have refused sex to women because at that circumstance I felt emotions were not involved and I didnt feel comfortable. Does this mean I am not a man ?? It is such a shame that the 'control' or 'power' to say yes or no lies with women in general and we all ( men and women seem to be happy with it that way ) Why have many men demeaned themselves in this regard by losing in touch with their own body and sensuality and given up control on this dept to women ? No dont laugh.. I am serious !
Why is that when a woman has this control to refuse or to accept it is seen as something to do ith feelings but when a man does it, it is simply scorned or seen as an inability to 'share' ?? It is as if a woman's body and emotions are sacred and mens are not ! I certainly do treasure my body but hey.. society doesnt allow a man to do that does it ? It is such double standards that even lead me to question my sexuality etc at one point !
I know many people wont buy it but hey I consider myself a victim of such gender roles/norms etc I had to point it out
I can go on more on this subject but I got a feeling that it might get lost.. men are expected to have a 'sense of humour' and get going when it comes to these is it ? :roll: but oh sorry.. I sometimes feel left out in this matter so I will stand up and shout . Thanks
as 'Spirit'ed ..as ever !
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Spirit,
I agree with you. I was pointing out to the posters that most men do NOT in fact think this way. I think taking the road you mentioned is truly better and much more meaningful.
And I liked Dharma's pointing out the moral aspect of sexual relations. It applies to both men and women. But I do think that women take the lead in the sexual realm because more often than not, they are the ones saying yay or nay.
And by and large, men will not do what women won't permit. They (women) are in large part the civilizing force of civilization.
Sorry if I disturbed you. I was trying to make clear the usual reality. And it is the usual reality even though it's not your reality.
I will say that men of an idealist temperment are much more "feeling" and I don't consider that they are not men. But most men are not the equivilent of women in terms of emotion. There are biological differences between men and women which can not be denied. And saying most men are simple doesn't imply being stupid at all. In fact in some ways I think men are more emotionally intelligent than women.
You were speaking specifically. I was speaking generally. But this is a forum for free discussion and that's a good thing.
Nassim
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If you have sex with a man without a foundation for a future relationship, you are vulnerable to his quick rejection or dumping.
Sigh. Yes. Makes sense. Wish someone would have told me this before now. :cry:
When I look back at the serious relationships I have had where there was talk of marriage, I see now that - even in those situations - I didn't believe that I was deserving of that type of relationship. My parents did not love me so how could anyone else? Sometimes I think the best thing to do would be to stay alone and suffer in silence. I did that for a long time. But then I feel that I am depriving my soul of what it needs which is healthy relationships. I guess I don't know the way to go about having healthy relationships. I am free, natural, truthful and non-judgemental when people believe differently than I and I think I deserve to be treated with respect. Why would my own parents disrespect me? I have always felt their disrespect. For me, I think the best thing to do would be to make a change in my life towards a more healing, natural environment and be around people who respect and care for the feelings of others.
Saw the man in question over the weekend in a social situation. He told me that I liked him more than he liked me. But that he thought I was "very cool." Funny thing is...he looks really good now; like he has his confidence back and I am full of self-doubt in social situations now where it is likely I will run into him. And the tree that provided shade for me in my urban dwelling has been 50% hacked off so, yes, I do feel vulnerable and exposed. And no one around here seems to want to care. So I guess I care about myself and chalk it up to a learning experience. I don't want this to ever, ever happen again.
Parents on this board...it might be good to tell your children, once they become sexually mature, about the dynamics of male/female encounters when sex comes up. No one ever told me. Let alone that I had any power to say *nay* to anything when I was young. But if I wasn't attracted to someone, I wouldn't go near them. It is when I sense a mental/spiritual connection that I jump in too quickly and certainly did this time. I now doubt that he was seriously planning to join a monastery :roll: He seems to have morphed into a stud and I feel like it all my fault. :P Excuse the sacasm but I feel there might be a grain of truth there and that angers me because this thought makes me feel that he got his power back at the expense of my weakness. :oops: :oops: :oops: and :x :x :x How should I behave now when I see him? I am really embarrassed and under-confident at the moment. Must remind myself that I have it much more together than I probably realize. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes and I am learning from this one.
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Dawning,
I also had to learn about male-female interactions the hard way. My parents didn't talk about it. I don't think they knew anything anyway. This guy may feel studly right now but that won't last long.
How I would act around him: polite, pleasant, and I'd pay very little attention to him. I would appear busy and happy.
bunny
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Hello everyone. I just woke up again at the crack of dawn - been happening alot lately. In trying to make sense of what has recently happened in my life... I think I am needy for the friendship of females and I don't have any where I live so I tried (without fully knowing) to substitute a younger guy- who told me he was thinking about being a monk -as a *girlfriend.* Who knows what he was thinking and I will probably never know - just like with dad - but the sense of loss I feel for the friendship is just as acute as the sense of loss I feel at having given away my power to him. The best thing I can do now is try and make some western girlfriends here with common interests (i'm in asia, btw.) Maybe if I had that to begin with, I could have seen the way things were headed with me and this guy and could have felt less lonely and more secure - secure enough to talk with him about who I really am than just to be happy that I was having a good time with someone who didn't want to get down my pants at the first available opportunity. But now the sex happened and there will never be any going back. As a result, he feels empowered, I think, and I feel even more alone and vulnerable especially since he lives near me and so do his mates.
I want to say thank you to all who have posted thus far. Bunny, you have been and continue to be a great help. Your last post certainly made me feel less alone and the advice has been invaluable esp since I felt that you were not judging me for my weakness. I will never be able to be one of the guys, that is a definite. How can it be possible that, by being friends with a girlfriend-substitute - that I became one of the guys with his mates (much more macho than him...until now :o ) until they found out that we had sex and now I feel disrespected by them. It is bizarre but that is how it feels to me. I want to write and tell him that it is not as simple as me "liking him more than he likes me.* I really did think of him as I would a girlfriend - opening up and talking about things. But he doesn't seem to feel a loss and I do :?: :?: And - funnily enough - this is pretty close to what I had with parents. Dad completely unavailable at all levels and mom really chatty when she needed to chat and unavailable if she had other things to do. Maybe I should take a class or go to a community center to study something. It is sad, I feel like I have lost a friend and did I mention that the intimacy between us was real while it was there - briefly - but now that is gone too. :cry: :cry: I am coming to believe that he questioned his own sexuality. And now he certainly doesn't. But what I gave him was a gift and he doesn't see it that way. He got his self-validation. Once you have sex with a man, there is never any going back.
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Dawning,
Your insight that you substituted him for a female friend is very useful. Now you realize what you really need. I wouldn't write him about this insight, it is useless and he can't help you anyway. He still isn't a girlfriend.
That "monk" line sounds really suspicious. I wonder if he's used it before to hook women. Seducing a monk is a pretty nifty fantasy, and he may have realized its potential (i.e., the woman would believe she is the "only one", and if she singlehandedly "turns him off" of celibacy, that makes her pretty powerful).
bunny
P.S. Thanks for your kind comments.
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And by and large, men will not do what women won't permit. They (women) are in large part the civilizing force of civilization.
Sorry if I disturbed you. I was trying to make clear the usual reality. And it is the usual reality even though it's not your reality.
Hi Nassim,
Thanks for clarrifying. I will agree that we can all express out views here without being choked and I am glad that you understand. I will put on my intellectual cap on tonight.
But my point is I am not happy the way the majority of the world sees things. For example you call women the 'civilising force' and I am afraid thats how still many of us sees things. Men places woman on a pedestal and it becomes so common and over the time it becomes 'real'. I think such perceptions should change if at all men and women are going to SHARE the responsibility when it comes to feelings/sex etc. I think placing women in such pedestal actually makes women idolised and idealised while it relieves men from that responsibility. We have done it for centuries and isn't it time that we start deconstructing these ? Isnt that the direction we need to spend our energy and not the other way ?
Why don't men take a bit of responsibility and put themselves in a pedestal and treasure their body and their privates ? Wont that makes things more liek a platteau rather than having to 'climp up' that pedestal knock on the door to ask permission, and if given waved down to those who havent climbed ' hey you suckers.. look at me I have conquerred" etc It will give women a break aswell.. sex would be like a 'home' with a couple in it ( where everything.. the fun to the responsibilities belongh to both ) rather than a host (female) and a guest (male).. sounds more like a B&B dosnt it ? How do we get there? by not re-enforse and idealise women as the safeguardians of emotions and feelings and the keyholders to sex.. but to deconstruct such ideas ?
I will say that men of an idealist temperment are much more "feeling" and I don't consider that they are not men. But most men are not the equivilent of women in terms of emotion. There are biological differences between men and women which can not be denied. And saying most men are simple doesn't imply being stupid at all. In fact in some ways I think men are more emotionally intelligent than women.
Well for me emotions are common. I come from a cultural background ( historically ) where it is easier to understand and see the soul as both male and female which in fact makes our soul a more neutral entity rather than distinguishing it on the basis of biological differences. Somehow I believe ( I am not sure if any one can prove it for sure either way ) that our present perception of 'feelings' being based on biological differences is more of a culturally constructed one. So fingers crossed thereaswell.
I will end my rant here but I wish we could have a decent debate on this.. because I find this topic interesting.
Spirit
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Spirit,
I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you are saying and what you are debating. I look at things in a very general way because that's my personality style....instead of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I can't see the trees for the forest. And you are talking about your specific world view and I'm talking about a general view.
In short, I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. I'm not trying to be dense. But I don't quite take your point and how it is germain to the problem of the poster on this thread. She obviously was a one night stand and was treated poorly by a young man with ill intentions or no intentions.
Unfortunately, this is an all too common occurance and women get hurt in the process.
BTW I have always been too shy to be a cad. My wife and I are equal in all things.....sexually, spiritually. I don't thinks there's any other way to be.
But the reality is that men (especially young men) have a biological imperative to have a lot of sex. I don't think that's a construct. It's what keeps the species going.
More men would be on this board if there was absolutely NO difference between the male and female psyche. Just an example of course.
Nassim
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Hi Nassim,
I do agree that we are dragging it on from the original topic this thread was started for.
Apart from that I think we will agree to disagree on the topic
Spirit
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But my point is I am not happy the way the majority of the world sees things. For example you call women the 'civilising force' and I am afraid thats how still many of us sees things.
Let me put it a different way. There is male energy (animus, yang, or whatever you want to call it) and female energy (anima, yin, etc.). For us to survive in the social world, for women and men to protect themselves from choosing destructive situations with the opposite sex, they might want to consider the male and female energies.
A woman who feels a physical longing for a man whom she doesn't know that well has to realize she is taking an emotional risk. For one thing, his male energy is probably more predominant than her male energy. And male energy is more about action, and female energy is more about intution and feeling. So if she has sex with this man, it's going to be a different experience for him and possibly not as emotional. This is not about women being on a pedestal, it's about male energy which is expressed mostly by action.
Now if the couple is in an actual relationship, the partners get into some kind of synch with their male/female energies. It has to be worked out over time and there are still problems along the way.
Men also get hurt by women. They have to consider whether the woman they're going to sleep with is a good choice. Men can make terrible choices in women and get hurt very badly (there's a male poster on this group who posted about it).
So I don't think this is about pedestals and the sexes sharing equally. It's about seeing red flags in a situation, and gauging whether having sex with this person is in everyone's highest interest.
bunny
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But I don't quite take your point and how it is germain to the problem of the poster on this thread. She obviously was a one night stand and was treated poorly by a young man with ill intentions or no intentions.
I am the original poster and my name on this board is Dawning. Nice to meet you, Nassim. I don't consider myself "a one night stand" although maybe I experienced that phenomenon recently. It was almost like a natural occurrence...I have never experience anything like that before. I see now that most men, upon being invited to my dwelling, would likely have forced themself on me but I have been lucky and not met too many of these types and, when I have, they have taken NO for an answer because I didn't give them a choice. I am still trying to figure out what happened because we didn't talk about things prior to the act. Would asking him his intentions/feelings beforehand have changed what happened though? As Nassim pointed out, some men WILL lie to have sex. I think the best thing to do in the future is to not let my energy/emotion/desire/intuition come together too quickly but use common-sense and make the man wait for awhile and NOT invite him to my place. Like I said, I wanted a girlfriend to talk with too.
And male energy is more about action, and female energy is more about intution and feeling
Hmm...I consider myself to be pretty active -maybe even more than some men. But I do think there is a difference between how the action is felt and dealt with on the part of women and men. That is generally why men are not good belly-dancers and women are not good hockey players. :P
My issue is in why I did not talk about my feelings for him beforehand. That would have been wise and, perhaps, saved me some pain in the long run. And I thank you who have given your frank assessments for helping me along to see this.
That "monk" line sounds really suspicious. I wonder if he's used it before to hook women. Seducing a monk is a pretty nifty fantasy, and he may have realized its potential (i.e., the woman would believe she is the "only one", and if she singlehandedly "turns him off" of celibacy, that makes her pretty powerful).
Heh. I can't help laughing a little at this. Thanks, Bunny. If he didn't use it before, he may be using it now. HAHAHA. Gotta be light this afternoon. Laughter is therapeutic too.
Another thing I've been thinking is that for women, sex is bound up together with feelings of love whereas for men, the feeling of love is not necessarily tied together with the act of sex. If I had a crush on this person - and it is very likely I did - perhaps my desires were also related to the craving I have for unconditional love from my parents. Accepting that I will not get it from them might help me avoid this scenario in the future.
*Spirit, I like the name you use on this board. I think it suits you. You said some things that I have thought about myself.
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Hiya Dawning,
Wanted to say Hi :D , Venturing out here. Usually don't bother. hahahah
But had to say "WHOAAAAAHH SEXY MOMMA!"
Whatever change or enlightenment or refreshment that young man has experienced, he experienced it from YOU! YOUR FEMINITY! YOUR POWER! YOUR ESSENCE! You should feel good about that! :D He wasn't married. You didn't violate some sanctity here, in this interaction. And if you've learned something about yourself, and had a glimpse of some unattractive needy side of your own nature, and you can learn something from that too, so then good :D . But hey, sexy momma :D , don't feel bad or old or useless. It's still got currency :D , whatever your earth mother nature is. hahahahahahahah Thank God for that!:D
CG
PS. Tell his mates you're depressed and down because you feel bad that you mislead him. Tell them you feel sorry for him, 'cause he now thinks he's a Don Juan, fantastic in bed. And tell them you feel terrible, 'cause he was really really really bad at it. You were just makin' him feel good. It was the worst sex you'd ever had. Tell them that. hahahaha
Go Girl.
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I am still trying to figure out what happened because we didn't talk about things prior to the act. Would asking him his intentions/feelings beforehand have changed what happened though?
His mind would have gone like this: "Oh, she wants to talk first." Sex is unlikely to be cancelled due to any discussion. And it's a rationalization to pursue the man afterward, referring to the discussion and wanting it to continue.
I think the best thing to do in the future is to not let my energy/emotion/desire/intuition come together too quickly but use common-sense and make the man wait for awhile and NOT invite him to my place.
This is a wise course to take!
bunny
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C'est la vie. Live and learn. One good thing about this is that my freespirit has returned but in a different form.
And I like your post, CG - it was WONDERFUL - thanks so much for your sincerity, Woman of the Earth.
... I think he may have pegged me early on and I didn't see it because I wondered how someone his age could be attracted to me. But now he isn't. Because of my teenage insecurities which got me into this situation in the first place. Seriously. How I ended up with these insecurities intact so far into life seems odd to me and probably to 20-something guys but it is me and I am not going to pretend. Now that I am getting rid of those and my attachment to a messed up father, I wonder if there is still a chance that I can meet a nice man somewhere who will treat me well and also if it is too late - now knowing what I know.
One last thing: as I was drying my hair this morning, I thought about the posts Spirit has written in this thread and - Spirit - I just want to say that I am glad there are men like you in the world. :) Makes me feel good knowing that.
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Two days have gone since I posted on this thread. I have had time to reflect more on it and I do realise that I was a bit selfish here in the sense that I hijacked the thread away from what Dawning created it for because I put my own concerns ahead there.
I do realise that it is not always about me, and there are different kind of men and I didin't have to go on the defensive. Threfore I will apologise to you Dawning because I do realise that I was being unsymathetic and didn't show any empathy to you or your feelings but let my own thought/concern/issues drift it away.
Nassim and Bunny,
I do understand you are talking the practicalities whereas I was talking in a more general sense ( placing humanity before humans etc ) Plus when I read it back now some part of my post could be sen as offending especially the part about 'because of my cultural background.. etc ' I think my delivery was poor there and I hope no one is offended. Having said that I still am still sticking with my views but will certainly pay attention to others view aswell and do realise that I am still learning.
thanks everyone
Spirit
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Spirit,
I don't think you offended anyone.
bunny
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One last thing: as I was drying my hair this morning, I thought about the posts Spirit has written in this thread and - Spirit - I just want to say that I am glad there are men like you in the world. :) Makes me feel good knowing that.
Thanks very much for those kind words Dawning. Now I wonder if I have played the moral high a bit too far.
I think there are certain benefits of childrens of N and neglecting parents because these children are so keep on pleasing others.. and I wonder if this is a main reason for my good behaviour with women.
Spirit :D
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Spirit,
I don't think you offended anyone.
bunny
Nice to hear Bunny.
Anyway I felt I needed to own responsibility for not being empathetic and talking off my head in the thread that was created for another reason. I feel a lot easier and happier now that it is off my chest.
Spirit'ed as ever !
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Spirit,
Being offended to me means giving your power to someone else. I try not to ever do that. It's different if someone is being insulting on purpose. I didn't see you being offensive or insulting.
Nassim
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I am unclear about my needs and feel naked and vulnerable much of the time now. It feels like getting kicked out of the family...being an orphan all over again. No one seems to want to have anything to do with me if I can't meet their needs.
Thank you to the people who posted on this thread and for sharing your insights and personal concerns. Spirit, you didn't offend me at all. If a thread I start helps someone else along and they can use their voice to heal then so much the better for all of us. :) Peace.
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Hiya dawning:
It feels like getting kicked out of the family...being an orphan all over again.
Were you ever in a family? I wasn't, consider myself now to have always been an emotional orphan and only just starting to 'grow up' emotionally. If you feel like this, you are not alone!
No one seems to want to have anything to do with me if I can't meet their needs.
Ditto. There seem to be very few real people about. Or maybe the unreal ones are just attracted to me! Maybe I should look harder at the people who aren't attracted to me, the ones holding back, they're probably more real. But then again, I find it very wearing, like with my neighbour, she saps the life out of me by non-stop talking. And I find it hard to say no. Where are all the people who don't have lots of weird needs they want met? I don't know! But I'll keep looking....take care, P
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Hi Portia.
Were you ever in a family? I wasn't, consider myself now to have always been an emotional orphan and only just starting to 'grow up' emotionally. If you feel like this, you are not alone!
Thanks for that. I think my parents did everything they could to delude me into thinking I was IN a family but how could it be so? I learned to distrust myself at an early age. Programmed into believing lies. It feels like there are so many lies on top of the truth and I am picking them away one by one.
Dad, you didn't come to see me. I had to beg you to see me when I was 12 and you reluctantly agreed. The last time I saw you I was 21 and now you are sending me msgs on 4th July telling me that you miss Elvis. You WEREN'T in my life. But you tell me I had a family. Mom, you talk about others being responsible for their choices and yet you have a reason - ALWAYS something I did wrong - that explains YOUR behaviour. You can't even ask how I am doing. That is such a scary thing for you. You can ask how the cats are but not me. I will never get the truth from you but I will get it from somewhere. I can't take any more lies. I have given up so much of my life believing in a fantasy that - if I let you both have your way with me - I would get what I wanted....a family.
(part of a letter I wrote to my college-aged friend just a few minutes ago)"The morning's are the worst. To think that you had a friend that you could share so much with, with so much potential and it turns out to have not had any meaning to him. I think that is a direct link to my parent-issues. He won't even email me to say that he is sorry that the last time he saw me by accident, he looked up at me and said, "hi, another woman's name?" what DID we have? And why do I feel that I lost my virginity and my heart has gone back to 14 years old? Because - maybe...just maybe...I am reclaiming all the years that were stolen from me. "
Sorry if that sounds overly-dramatic. I just learned that in Berlin people jump in the fountains naked in the summer. HAHA. The whole idea of nakedness - in the figurative sense - makes alot of sense. I always wanted to hide who I really was. Now I am imagining that I am naked - allowing myself to be vulnerable - in my present situation. I am who I am...reclaiming all the lost years. Is that possible? Does that explain why I get on the swing in the park and listen to 4-5 songs on a CD while swinging. It feels good afterwards. Gotta keep an eye on my bike. My old one got stolen while I was swinging in a feverish state last weekend. I wonder what that says....NOW I lock my bike. :shock:
Ditto. There seem to be very few real people about. Or maybe the unreal ones are just attracted to me! Maybe I should look harder at the people who aren't attracted to me, the ones holding back, they're probably more real. But then again, I find it very wearing, like with my neighbour, she saps the life out of me by non-stop talking. And I find it hard to say no. Where are all the people who don't have lots of weird needs they want met? I don't know! But I'll keep looking....
Hmmm. If you look at the ones holding back -who aren't attracted - would you try to speak with them about that? How would you go about making a connection with them? As for your neighbor, she sounds like she doesn't understand how to have a conversation that seems *real* to you. I understand about sapping the life out of me and I find it hard to say no too. But I am SO tired - sapped out of - giving away alot of power to people so quickly and intensely when I feel a connection. Weird needs, yeah...something to consider about myself. Anyway, I think its all about give/take. Say no when need be. Say yes when need be. I'm looking for balance now. I'm trying to figure out who I am and what my needs are and separating from my parents. Maybe they are the ones with the weird needs. Sifting through the pain is difficult work. You take care too. <<Hug>>
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Nassim, now I understand what you mean here:
Being offended to me means giving your power to someone else.
Thank you. Sometimes it takes me awhile to *get* things that, perhaps, come easier to others.
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Being offended to me means giving your power to someone else.
Thank you. Sometimes it takes me awhile to *get* things that, perhaps, come easier to others.
Ha ha! I’m shaking my head at myself. I wondered a while back where I’d seen that line (of Nassim’s) above. It’s helpful Nassim and thank you Dawning for bringing it back into view. It makes so much sense to me right now. Yeah, mother’s “have I offended you?” – I say yes, she gets the power back. Wow.
How has it helped you D? Or should I say, what caused you to get it?
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Hi D, saw you were active here a mo ago, and thought I'd pop in and say "Hi, how are you goin' sexy momma. Where's my pie?" hahahahah
Take care
CG
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Hiya CG. LOL! Dam*, I like your healing vibrations!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Wanna be my neighbor? :lol:
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Yeah, sure do :D ! Hey D, wanna take P on well-earned holiday to the Coke Islands. hahahaha I mean Cook Islands. Wonder what they do/sniff on Coke Island?
But we'll need to share one end, 'cause she likes her privacy. Remember?
Hope you don't mind bunkin' with a snorer, and a night owl. Which must mean I snore all day. :shock: and wanna talk all night. :D
Love and hugs D. Hope it's all sorting itself and your're advancing steadily in your desired direction.
(((((D)))))
CG