Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Violet on June 24, 2004, 06:11:59 PM
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Hi,
I've been reading this board on and off for a long while, but this is my first post. I'm absolutely desperate. My father-in-law is a classic case N - he's even been profossionally diagnosed as such by two psychologists.
The problem is this: He and and his doormat, er wife, are coming to visit for two weeks! They were just here for two weeks over Christmas. It was such a nightmare that by the end no one was speaking to anyone.
I'm dreading this visit like mad.
I've read two oppsoing views on coping with an N's behavior. The first says to leave as soon as they begin their antics since abandonment is what they fear most. The second said to come back at them with same amount of vehemence as they dish out. Since they are complete cowards, the reasoning is they will back off.
What works best for you guys? Anything???
Oh man. I just can't believe their coming back again!
In the past, we've point blank rudely told them not to come, and all that happens is the Wife calls and calls with sob stories about how sad N is and they just need to see us. (Yeah! Because he needs a fresh N supply.) On two occasions, even faced with this kind of pressure, we held firm and you know what? They came anyway. And it was hell, because it always is.
Our house is so peaceful and loving (not to mention clean) and within hours of their arrival nasty junk is everywhere, he's calling the wife a "fat wildebeest," playing his stupid guitar loud as hell outside, putting his son down, refusing the dinner I cook...
Short of a nuclear meltdown, what can I do to best ensure the most harmonious visit possible?
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Your anticipation of this horrible visit is already very high!! I've read the same about how to deal withthese people. I for one have tried the --being venemous right back to them--bit I can't seem to get mean enough--no matter what I do. I would strongly recommend a firm "NO". " Stay in a hotel, we have some other committments during this period" "Let's get together one night for dinner--at a restaurant" The N will probably be on beter behavior so he can impress everyone in the place. Why would you want to subject yourself and your lvoing family to this nightmare. It absolutely sounds horrible. empower yourself on this one!! Then the visits will happen far less frequently or not at all!! Good job trying to be proactive and put up the protective shield. Follow-through with it!!
Cplummer CSHF
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My folks live in town and my Dad is in bad health so I am planning on staying there all day and just coming back to my home to sleep.
That's the best I've been able to come up with thus far.
The last visit was so unbelievable that I think after twelve years of marriage to my husband, I have finally developed a full-blown allergic reaction to my in-laws!
Thanks for responding. I'll try to take deep soothing breaths!
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Violet,
Do you have kids? And if you do, have you thought about the impact this visit would have on them? What's with your H? Can he not stand up to these folks.
Sorry to ask so many questions. But this seems severe. And destructive to you and family. Why do they stay with you?
Sonia
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I am confused as to how these people will gain access to your home for two weeks, when they aren't even invited. There is no way to lessen the horror based on your description. You've already paid your dues with these idiots. They shouldn't even get past the door.
bunny
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Part of the problem is that for their entire married life (30+ years), my mother in-law has presented this front that everything is fine and that her husband is just sensitive. When the boys came along, the cardinal rule in the house was "don't upset Dad, no matter what." She never has acknowledged to anyone, including herself, that her husband has any kind of problem aside from being sensitive.
The boys had, like many children of Ns, assumed that they were as flawed as their father had led them to believe and that essentially they were to blame for most everything. It has only been since the boys have married and been exposed to their wive's normal families that they have learned their household was dysfunctional as hell.
Since then, the boys (one of whom is my husband, of course) have distanced themselves from them, but both men are good, compassionate, loving and warm and it simply is not within them to cut their father and mother off.
It's all such a farce though. No one has ever come right out and said, "N you're a mean-spirited jerk and I don't want you in my house." How could we? He gets away with most of his obnoxious behavior because the rest of us are civilized and polite.
Nonetheless, the sons feel tied to this farce because of their mother. They pity her and are disgusted with her frequently, but they view her as a victim and simply feel they cannot abandon her. She falls to pieces if N gets himself in a snit, which in turn makes the boys feel terrible since it is usually they who inspire the snit.
Although, the last time N paced in front of our house for 4 hours like a deranged psycho was when I politely asked him to turn down his guitar since the night before my husband and I been in the ER all night miscarrying a child and we both needed an afternoon nap. The upside to this snit, and most of the others, is that N refuses to speak to the offending party for at least 1/2 a day.
Although we've wanted children for several years, none have come our way. However, I can tell you my sister in-law never leaves her children alone with their grandparents. She is afraid of what might happen to them since N is so impulsive, manipulative and weird. One time she caught N telling her 7 year old son that he didn't need to finish his dinner because he was already getting fat. (By the way, it should come as no surprise to you seasoned vets that the boy is not at all overweight, but it is only N's projection of himself onto the tyke and his skewed world view.)
I wish the situation was so simple as to say, "I'm sorry, but we can't see you anymore." Barring N doing something violent, I don't see this as a possibility. My husband's solution has simply been to not rely on them for any emotional support whatsoever. He doesn't expect it of them and he doesn't, in turn, share any of himself with them. I'm sorry for them, because they've got a great kid, but MIL is too concerned with N to care about anyone else and N is too concerned with himself to care about anyone else.
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Two weeks is a long amount of time for anyone to visit. You shouldn't feel bad about asking them to limit their visit to a reasonable length or to stay in a hotel.
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Here's the deal with the visit lengths: they lie. Like this time, they said to my husband (he was on the phone with his mother so I only heard one half of the conversation) they'd like to come and visit for 5 days. He says okay (why bother arguing anymore?), when do you plan to stay? They say on a Thursday, we'll spend two weekends at your place, then leave the following Tuesday.
When he gets off the phone he tells me this and I start doing a little math. I tell him, it's not 5 days it's more like 12-13 days. He looks perplexed for a second then says, "oh yeah, they said they're going to spend some time in another town with a friend of Mom's."
By this time we had rubbed the sleep out of our eyes (they always call very late) and then we both said, sort of laughingly, "They said they would do that when they were here over Christmas and they didn't."
Plus that, I know Lynn's friend and I know for a fact that she hates N and he hates her too. N just said they'd visit the friend. He has no intention of doing so, I just know it.
As for the hotel, I know this is hard to believe, but they are too cheap to rent a room, they would just sleep out in the car. I kid you not, they've done this on vacations and other trips before. My SiL and I died laughing when we first heard that Chris Farley skit "I sleep in a van down by the river" it reminded us so much of our in-laws.
Oh yeah, I forgot, if they plan to stay for awhile, but know that you don't want them to, they will not tell you when they plan to leave. They suddenly act like they are free spirits who couldn't possibly plan a departure in advance. It does no good to say "we need to know," because they just counter with "do whatever you would do if we weren't here."
But, you know, it's hard to do the happy dance about your in-laws once again being 500 miles away when they are still sitting on your sofa!
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Oh my goodness!!! This sounds just like my mum and dad, except my mum is the destructive N, and my dad is the one who says she is 'just highly strung'.
And the reason I live just two miles from them is that I never have them to stay and I never have to stay at theirs!!!!!! No matter how late, no matter how bad the weather, I can always come home!!
So I am not sure what I would do if I were faced with a visit of two weeks. What a prospect!!! I can hardly bear it when they come for half an hour. Stoney silence from my mum, who can't act out here like she can elsewhere, and who falls asleep on purpose if I put films on telly that she doesn't like. Her way of saying she wants to go home is to yawn loudly and persistently.
So if this is the N way of saying 'time to leave' maybe you could try it. Lol!!! Yawn loudly. Go to bed early and leave them to it. Have prearranged evenings out with friends - sold out ticket events preferably.
Best of all is to say 'sorry it is not convenient', but I accept that for some Ns this is just not in their vocabulary.
I have a real problem with boundaries, as any ACON will. My brothers and my parents all treat my house as if they can come and go at will without ever checking that it is ok with me. If I am in, they think that is all that counts.
Not sure what else to suggest. I will see if anything occurs to me later. Good luck!!
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Hiya Violet. This is what I see:
when I politely asked him to turn down his guitar since the night before my husband and I been in the ER all night miscarrying a child and we both needed an afternoon nap.
My goodness I’m angry on your behalf! You asked him? Where was your hubby? Couldn’t he have asked? Hey, you did the miscarrying (and I’m sorry you did, that’s a sad event), not your hubby. Your body. Everyone should have been looking after you, caring for you, worrying about you. You! Not hubby, Violet - you. Stuff everyone else.
When he gets off the phone he tells me this and I start doing a little math. I tell him, it's not 5 days it's more like 12-13 days. He looks perplexed for a second then
It seems to me you’re taking (and being given?) all the responsibility for this. Does your hubby ask you if the visit is okay with you?
what can I do to best ensure the most harmonious visit possible
why should you do anything?
He says okay (why bother arguing anymore?), when do you plan to stay?
Maybe he should discuss with you first before agreeing?
On the other hand, if you want to take responsibility for dealing with this father-in-law, have you read this? Posted ages ago, sorry can’t remember who by, but kept in my store:
http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html#interacting
This is just my opinion, based on what you’ve said. Please take it or leave it :) P
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Thanks for the support everybody.
I should probably say a word about my husband's relationship with his parents. He doesn't stand up to them as often as he should and that is, obviously, a problem. I always try to be sensitive to his feelings on this particular subject. I can't imagine how horrible it must have been to grow up in that house. I sympathize with him and I know he is trying, but it's tough. He may never get to a healthy point with his parents and that's okay. They are his Achilles' heel.
I should note that my husband is not the only one who let's N have his way most of the time. N is hands down the most difficult human being I have ever met. He pushes the whole time you are in his presence. With single-minded determination, he forces every single subject, every activity, all of it, to spotlight on him.
N acts exactly like a hyper, attention-hungry three year old. He is exhausting. The first few days of any visit, my husband and I both equally censure his behavior, but it's an unrelenting job. Let's just take for example one of his habits. Whenever he sits on my couch, he puts his disgusting feet on my grandmother's antique coffee table. I have told him 900 times not to do this. Everytime I say to take the feet off, he does, immediately, but not without first a smart alec remark. But then, what do you do when you come home and find him sitting there with his feet on the table again? Tell him again, right? And again and again...
He is just bound and determined to do whatever he wants, how he wants and whenever he wants. This willfulness is made worse by the fact that most of his ideas and decisions are completely idiotic.
You never get a moment of rest with him. The whole time is spent trying to control his behavior and it's just exhausting. When I asked him to turn the guitar down, I went out to do this because I had been resting all day. My husband, on the other hand, had just laid down. He had been taking care of me like a barefooted saint for the past several weeks, and I wanted to take care of him a little bit. He was so tired, so frustrated and hurting over our loss too. So I just told N to turn it down. Of course, I didn't know that this one simple polite request would be the thing that made him blow.
You never know. He is manipulative as hell and uses that threat of a nuclear meltdown to keep people from censuring him. Thus, every time, I or my husband tell him to pick his used band-aids up off the floor or not to tear the pool patio apart looking for the leak, or not to demean women - we feel our stomachs clench in preparation of a colossal hissy fit.
His behavior is just exhausting. He wears you down. After awhile, it's hard not to just agree to everything. And then comes the really joyful part, watching N gloat about his victory. After we've given up and we're both nervous wrecks, he'll start smearing our faces in his behavior. When I enter a room and look at his feet on the table he just looks back at me and waits for me to say something and if I don't, he goes back to watching TV or whatever with this smirk on his face. It's the same with the guitar, he'll pull it out and look right at you as he makes this grand gesture of strumming the first chord.
He thinks he's won the war, but he's losing the battle. With every visit, my husband grows more and more disgusted with him. I could not live with myself if I was the one who separated my husband from his parents permanently. I think I could do it, but my god, disowning someone - parents - that's so big. I respect and understand people who have done this with their N parents, and I wish my husband would do the same, but I can't be the one to force his hand on this.
I'm sorry these are so long - I seem to be spilling without end.
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Keep talking Violet, that’s what the board’s here for and please don’t be sorry for long posts. :D Long posts are good. I loved your reply, very honest. Thank you.
But then, what do you do when you come home and find him sitting there with his feet on the table again?
You tell him that if he does it one more time, you won’t let him sit on your sofa EVER AGAIN. It’s exactly like dealing with a 6 year old. And you have to treat them the same. And you have to enforce those boundaries. Very difficult, because where will it end?
I respect and understand people who have done this with their N parents, and I wish my husband would do the same, but I can't be the one to force his hand on this.
No, you can’t and I admire the way you support him. But you don’t have to sacrifice yourself and your own life to support him. You matter too. This father-in-law would drive me nuts. I couldn’t take it. I’d have to leave the house completely, go away for the whole time they’re there. Maybe get hubby to buy me a health spa retreat holiday 8) rather than be forced to put up with his obnoxious father. Please don’t think by putting up with him you are helping mother-in-law either. It’s like having an alcoholic in the family. Everyone supports the alcoholism by living around it….know what I mean? Best, P
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Violet,
OH my gosh, hurry pack all of your chit up and move to another country. Pssst, dont leave a forwarding address.
Violet, I dealt with the nastiest of the nasties and he will tell you himself that I shook the chit right out of him when I gave him the dickens back. You can just see their expressions on their face change as if to say, what what what did you say dat for? I could not understand how N people could stand to your face, look you in the eyes, see the pain in your face, and they get supply out of this? They feel powerful when they see hurt in their victims? Sick isnt it.
When I tell you that I got down and rolled around in the dirt just as well as he did, hun, I am ashamed to admit some of the things I said to him. However, I can also say that those were the times that I noticed I could break down his barriors and plow right on into his gates of hell.
I guess I thought of it as me being a weak wimpy kid on a playground with him being the playground bully who always shoved me down to steal my lunch and milk money. I could only take so much and I flippin snapped on him. Snort, Snort!!
I do not know how I would handle this if I were in your situation. I think it is totally rude, crude and unacceptable that your father in law would walk into your house and act like the king of YOUR kingdom. Why violet, I am afraid I would shove his crown where the sun don't shine and that would be as his ars was hitting the sidewalk outside my front door.
You thank the heavens that your Husband did not gain his wicked ways. I just can not imagine being a child in that environment. It always strikes me funny how N can dish it out but they can not take it. Talk about the flip side of reality. They just do not get it do they??
Another option is that you infest your house with all the viruses you can muster up, undercook his meat, purchase 100 pets that are not potty trained, and paint your house a bright metalic purple from the inside out and hope that this will detour them from visiting ever, ever again. If this doesnt work, then hatch up another plan. LOL!!
Doh, how does this seem to you!! :twisted: :D
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Thanks, P.
N so takes advantage of the fact that most of us are uncomfortable treating a 63 year old like a 3 year old. I think you're right though. Instead of asking politely that he take the feet off the table, it's time to take the gloves off and be rude.
This my hang-up. It is so hard to go against everything I was taught as a child! I'm Southern and it was ingrained in me from the womb to be polite and gracious especially to my elders and my guests.
I have decided I'm not cleaning my house (they'll just destroy it anyway). I'm not cooking a single meal for them. My husband plans to work the whole time and I plan to spend every day away from them. I'm throwing the fuse on the outside plugs and locking the fuse box so N doesn't offend my neighbors with his "concerts."
Kicking a puppy would feel more natural than doing this!
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Violet,
I completely understand your feelings when you say this goes against everything you were taught as a child. I thought that alot when I was rolling in the dirt with my N.
I never intentionally say or do anything that could offend or hurt someones feelings. I have no excuse for my behavior with him I just have experience from dealing with him. Those experiences showed me a different side of human nature that I had never known before.
I guess I just felt that I was fighting for my emotional life when he attacked or belittled me. It was my upbringing that allowed me to tollerate for so long. So I understand completely what you mean by that.
I also understand that at times it is best to fight fire with fire. It seems like the more you allow these people to run over you, the more they travel down that path. I can only speak about the N that I tangled with. When I stood up to him in a very direct manner and I stated things in a factual way, he seemed to back down a bit.
I wouldnt always take the "hey buddy dont mess with me" approach. That approach only came when he refused to retract his claws. At times I am ashamed to admit, I had bigger balls then I dreamed I could. That took a heck of alot because I am a girl and not a big one at that. My N could and did get physical with me at times with one time resulting in me getting my rib broke. The next time he came at me I told him you touch me and I swear to God I will kick you ever luvin ars and if I dont, I'll die tryin. Well to him that was an invitation. By the end of that roll in the dirt, he was calming me down with tears rolling down his face.
I offer my manners and skills from my upbringing to everyone and anyone. But the minute anyone abuses my rights and comes at me one to many times, I come out of the corner swingin.
I have often thought about this. It seems like the people who maintain their manners and thoughtfullness of others seem to be the people who get screwed over most of the time. It seems that bullies or wanna be biggies plow right over those people because they are easy targets and give very little back when confronted.
Manners and thoughtfullness towards other human beings is a wonderful thing to have and it is something to be proud of. The second someone stops acting like a human being is when I throw all of my manners and thoughtfullness right out the flippin window. With me you give respect and you will get it in return. You disrespect me one to many times and lordy be this girl gets her boxing gloves out.
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I know you guys are right. It's just not easy. I'm non-confrontational by nature and upbringing. Even my father told me that this time around I needed to stop playing by the rules of game that N has never even heard of.
Fighting makes me feel ill. I just so much wish I did not have this person in my life. Life is hard enough without dealing with this guy's garbage.
I know I could drop N like a bag of dirt. Isn't it funny that the one with such a long rap sheet of offenses, is the one who dang near invites people with his obnoxious behavior to tear him apart? That trait alone convinces me that my father in-law is not just a jerk, but that there is something pathologically wrong with him. I mean, why on earth would you do virtually everything in your power to make the one thing you fear most come true????
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Violet,
My husband was very submissive toward his N mother. There were always excuses for her behavior ("She's in physical pain," "She didn't use to be like this," "She's lonely," &etc.) I understood his childhood history with her; I understood the dynamics; I "got" the whole picture.
Guess what: We were in marriage counseling and every therapist told us the same thing. That he had to put HIS WIFE FIRST and his MOTHER SECOND. They all advised that he should honor his wife and marriage first.
I thought I had a MIL from hell (she is thankfully deceased) but your in-laws take the cake. They wouldn't get past my front door even if I looked like an evil witch and the meanest person in town. I think your neighbors would even thank you for turning them away.
I think it's time for you and and your husband to take back your home and not let these buffoons have the run of it while you meekly escape to other places. Honor your home. Honor your privacy. Honor your marriage.
That's it.
bunny
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There have been times, especially early on in our marriage and only in the actual presence of his parents, that I felt like a second priority. We were able to talk about this however and came to a better understanding.
Since my husband doesn't participate in their weirdness and he is often mortified by their behavior, I don't really feel like he puts them above me or our marriage. In fact, I often think that - well, how to say this - that he reacts to them as if he were not their son, but their son in-law.
He never makes excuses for them and he never has. He usually says to me things like, "I'm sorry my parents are such freaks." I keep trying to break him of accepting blame and responsibility for them, but they taught him from an early age to do this and it is one tough habit to break.
In addition to their father's N antics, their mother did something different and which I consider deeply wrong. She encouraged the boys to take the blame for anything and everything, because their father was "too sensitive" to handle it. Like when she discouraged her eldest son from quitting peewee football because as she said, "your father probably won't have much to do with you anymore." Her son continued to play even though he was much smaller than the other boys and afraid. Two weeks later he was hospitalized after he got a concussion on the field. The coach, not his parents, finally said "enough is enough."
To be honest, this upcoming visit took both us by surprise. After they left this Christmas, my husband said he would understand if I decided never to see them again. I told him that I would never invite them to my home again and that I was never going up to visit them again if I could possibly help it. None of this was said in anger and having decided this, we figured that we could get away without seeing them for a year before they next visited.
My SiL says they are coming down because it's easier on them to be united against us than tearing each other apart in the privacy of their own home.
Short of actually moving and leaving no forwarding address (ha, ha), I'm not sure how to keep them out. I'm really not exaggerating when I say that they will come anyway. What do I do when I open my door and see them standing there - clutching all their clothes and toiletries in plastic grocery bags, since they are too cheap to buy luggage? Use that great Jack Nicholson line, "Sorry, we're all stocked up on crazy here"?
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Violet,
Your husband is putting them ahead of you and his marriage when he allows them to stay for two weeks against your wishes. Anger is not what I'm talking about. There are ways to put parents ahead of spouses without any anger being involved.
What I'd do at this point: *be out of town* when they come. The house is closed, locked. If I didn't do this, I might rent some attack dogs to keep them away (seriously). I would simply not let them in the door, no matter how many bags they had. That's right! They have lost the privilege of entering my home. That's how I'd see it.
well, good luck..
bunny
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Violet,
I think it is telling that you keep referring to your husband and his brothers as boys. Men put their wife and kids first...boys are still clinging to Mommy and Daddy. Please don't get offended, I'm just pointing out something that hit me between the eyes when I read your posts. And Bunny's post is correct. He should put you first. Mom and Dad way second.
I know dealing with an N isn't easy. I wouldn't open the door to these people. You have to set boundries. They can stay at a hotel and your husband must handle this. It is his place to deal with his family. Your doing it shows that he can't handle it and puts him in the little boy position.
Please know, no offense intended.
Nassim
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nassim,
I just wanted to say that personally I do not get offended by anything that you say. You are simply stating how you feel and you seem to be doing so in a very forthcoming, non aggressive manner. What more can a person do then to offer their thoughts and feelings. If they are not the same as anybody else then I believe that is what is called personal point of view and if somebody else has a different thought process, then they are as free to share it as you are.
Sometimes it is hard to hear some peoples replies because it is not the answer we are looking for. Its kinda like a woman asking someone, "do I look good in this outfit?" Of course they want you to say "why yes you look marvelous in that outfit." Even if they dont, they need to hear they are lookin spiffy. I myself would rather someone speak the truth whether it be, hell ya you look great in that outfit or ummm, not looking to good in that get up. I ask peoples opinions to get their opinion, not to seek reinforcement for my insecurities.
IMHO and that wont get ya very far cause its just my opinion, not the law of the land. :shock:
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nassim is right again.
bunny
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Violet
You understand the dynamics of your family so well. I can see you have spent considerable time trying to figure it all out. You've got it! That is an excellent beginning but without real ACTION you are just spinning.
What I have learned, quite recently, is that there comes a time for ACTION and for you, that time is NOW. When people make you physically sick and emotionally exhausted you must act. You must honour yourself. This is not selfish at all... it is basic survival.
Two years ago, my sister said, "It's HER (my Nmother) or you. You must decide. SHe has had her life and is destroying yours.' 'I have no doubt that the kind of stress N's put on others is like a vicious assault. You don't see the bruises but the internal damage, pyschological and physical is immense.
Possible actions:
1. Ask your husband to discuss the situation with his mother. (Surely she must see what a jerk her husband is) He must explain that your family cannot take the strain any more. Wouldn't she like a break from this guy?
Possibly she could come for a short visit but from what you've said this would be an invitation that would be deliberately misread and abused.
2. Write a letter. Could begin with...'for whatever reasons, it is clear that our visits together put a strain on everyone. We don't think this is healthy for any of us and so propose the following....very clear, black and white.
3. I don't know your financial circumstances but if they simply show up, march them over to a cheap motel, pay for 2 nights and let them know that's it. There are no other options.
4. As Bunny and others have said, do not let them in your house. Steal yourself for the fury, pouting and carry on but stick to your guns. Let them know in advance so there is no misunderstanding at the door.
Oh Violet, I feel for you so much. I understand that you and your husband are kind- hearted souls and it must seem like the most offensive thing to possibly do.
But do it you must.
Les
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Whooooeeee, Violet!
I'm getting riled just reading your posts! Ugh, ugh, ugh! So you're Rome and the Visigoths are coming. This is absolutely invasive.
We all recognize Big Bad N, but MIL is also participating in the abuse of the two grown sons. She probably has no choice because if he doesn't get his way, he's gotta take it out on somebody...it's hard to accept that mom might be a full participant when she's all you've got to hang onto the idea that you were loved. But enough. She has made her choices. N is using her as the bait to pull the sons in for more abuse.
You can move into a hotel temporarily and lock all your doors when you expect them. Just don't be around to receive them as they storm the castle. No confrontation (until later)...but it would send a message. So what if they camp on your front lawn? I think I would understand if my neighbors didn't let unwelcome crazy people in...Your neighbors would probably call the cops for you. Well, just an idea...desperate times call for desperate measures.
I'm with Jaded. If you respect me, I'll respect you. I give everybody the benefit of doubt (bad hair day, etc) but three strikes you're out. Funny thing about some abusers: the only thing they respect is abuse! :evil: So what if he goes into a hissy fit? Too bad. It's like facing the dragon. It's all a lot of hot air. If they don't tell you when they will leave, pack up their stuff for them and throw them out. Have the phone in your hand and say you will call the police if they don't leave. They are abusing you now too.
I don't care if this guy was abused, it doesn't give him the right to abuse anybody else! You may want to read Elder Rage to know you are not alone in coping with an aging abusive b*****d. It isn't really a "help" book per se, but the story is cathartic. Good luck!!! Seeker
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Oops, sorry to repeat what some others have said...it took a while for my internet connection to come back up before this went through. :roll:
Take care Violet. Seeker
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The Visigoths are coming! Ha, ha, ha, that so cracked me up!
I've got to run, but I thought I needed to clarify something. When I first started talking about my husband and his brother, I couldn't figure out given the anonymity of this forum, a way to pronoun them. I tried "men," but then some of the statements I made sounded like I was talking about men in general. So, I went with "boys," even realizing as I did what the implications might be. Maybe I'll stick with the "brothers."
Having said that, it's true that both brothers fall into patterns set when they were children when they are in their parents' presence. I think most of us, to some degree or another, do that. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing either. For instance, I don't cuss around my parents because they don't like it. However, there is obviously a line and more times than not, it seems, in dysfunctional relationships that line is crossed far too often and for all the wrong reasons.
After reading about some of the violence and just really horrible things N's have done to most of the people in this group, well, it puts things in perspective for me. The father in-law is atrocious, but even his behavior pales in comparison to some of the things I have read here.
Go out and enjoy your weekend, everybody! That's the best revenge!!
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I knew it!
Remember how I said, neither my husband or I could figure out why the in-laws were returning to the scene of the crime, er, our house for another two week visit??
I was talking to my SiL and I heard some racket in the background and asked what it was. She said the in-laws were there - again. In the last two months, they have visited my SiL and BiL four times. Since they live closer to each other the visits consisted of long weekends.
Why? I asked. I mean, that's way more than usual.
My SiL said that they had apparently ticked off the N's sister and her husband. After they moved to the same town after retirement, they made the sister and her husband their best friends. Well, finally, apparently, N's sister flat out told him he needed to change or else.
Now, N is telling everyone, that his sister "doesn't approve of his lifestyle."
Lifestyle? Being an ass is a lifestyle?? Who knew?!
Anyway - that's really why they are coming down here. Whenever N pushes people to the edge, he usually visits/calls all his other N supply buddies and runs down the person who was so heartlessly mean to him.
I just knew there was a reason.
I feel like I oughta get one of those bumperstickers that says, "It's not paranoia if people are really out to get you!"
Maybe it's just a quirk of my own favorite N, but he never does anything without an ulterior motive. Given that this is the motive du jour, what would you all say when he arrives and begins tearing down his sister and her husband??
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Violet,
Sorry. I'm all out of exasperated here. Why do you let these people come to your home? Did you invite them? And if you didn't, you have some "splaining" to do to us who are are trying to help you. You have gotten some good advice. Are you going to thwart this circus or not?
I'm getting impatient with you dearest blessing Violet. You are the flower of our hearts and you're letting some crummy insects eat away at your beautiful petals.
Nassim
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...what would you all say when he arrives and begins tearing down his sister and her husband??
"Let's change the subject."
bunny
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Hey Nassim,
I have gotten good advice here and I do appreciate it. And even my wee petals are getting exasperated.
When it comes right down to it, however, neither of us are ready to take that next step. Even I, as much as I've come to loathe my father in-law, find the idea of cutting them off anathema.
Part of the reason this is so, is because I have a really great marriage. I love the hell out of my husband, we're best friends, I love our life together. His parents are the one thing that drives me crazy and let's face it, even though they're awful, I'm also a whiner. I can pull on my big girl britches and deal with them.
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Violet,
But doesn't your great husband realize that these people are crashing boundries with stealth missiles. They are using terrorist tactics. For goodness sake, woman......two weeks? Inviting themselves? What's wrong with the hotel idea. That isn't cutting them out, that's putting a boundry in place.
I really do need to know.
Nassim
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Violet,
Actually, I changed my mind. I don't need to know. I've decided to "let go and let God" on this one.
Good luck to you anyway.
Nassim
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When it comes right down to it, however, neither of us are ready to take that next step. Even I, as much as I've come to loathe my father in-law, find the idea of cutting them off anathema.
These are two completely different things:
(1) Whether they can stay with you for two weeks.
(2) Cutting them off.
bunny
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Violet - I think the passion on this thread is an indication how abused, people here perceive you to be.
I can really see that you want to suck it in and pull up your britches as you say. How about just pulling them up a wee bit then? Is compromise something you could entertain? One week as opposed to two? We are all worried about you as you can see. You should read some of your earlier posts and remind yourself of the effects the "visitors" have on you. Good luck dear Violet.
Les
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There have been times, especially early on in our marriage and only in the actual presence of his parents, that I felt like a second priority. We were able to talk about this however and came to a better understanding.
Since my husband doesn't participate in their weirdness and he is often mortified by their behavior, I don't really feel like he puts them above me or our marriage. In fact, I often think that - well, how to say this - that he reacts to them as if he were not their son, but their son in-law.
He never makes excuses for them and he never has. He usually says to me things like, "I'm sorry my parents are such freaks." I keep trying to break him of accepting blame and responsibility for them, but they taught him from an early age to do this and it is one tough habit to break.
In addition to their father's N antics, their mother did something different and which I consider deeply wrong. She encouraged the boys to take the blame for anything and everything, because their father was "too sensitive" to handle it.
Hi Violet --
You and your husband have realized that his father is N and his mother participates in her husband's sick behavior by not standing up for her sons. You have made progress in dealing with his parents, since, as you say, your husband does not make excuses for them to you, even though he was raised to do that.
When it comes right down to it, however, neither of us are ready to take that next step. Even I, as much as I've come to loathe my father in-law, find the idea of cutting them off anathema.
Part of the reason this is so, is because I have a really great marriage. I love the hell out of my husband, we're best friends, I love our life together. His parents are the one thing that drives me crazy and let's face it, even though they're awful, I'm also a whiner. I can pull on my big girl britches and deal with them.
Both of you are unwilling to take the necessary next step toward your own mental health and the health of your marriage, which is establishing reasonable boundaries for his parents' behavior. This is a step towards growing up, respecting each other and honoring your marriage.
Bunny is right -- standing up to them about their invasive behavior in arriving on your doorstep without being invited is not the same as cutting them off. It is simply making clear to them that you will not tolerate certain types of behavior. Yet when people on the board suggested it, you started backtracking, saying your FIL is not as bad as some Ns you've read about here, and blaming yourself for being a whiner. You also seem to be suggesting above that standing up to your H's parents will damage your marriage. Do you really think so? And if so, why? Do you think your husband would resent it if you pushed him to set boundaries for his parents?
I know you guys are right. It's just not easy. I'm non-confrontational by nature and upbringing. Even my father told me that this time around I needed to stop playing by the rules of game that N has never even heard of.
Fighting makes me feel ill. I just so much wish I did not have this person in my life. Life is hard enough without dealing with this guy's garbage.
Believe me, I know just how hard it is to stand up to family members. It's a scary road to go down, because if you haven't done it before you don't know how they will react. It's much easier to just go along and not rock the boat or cause a confrontation when you have been raised to be compliant. But you have a big advantage -- you both agree this is a bad situation, and you have each other as support. Would the two of you consider using this situation as an opportunity to take that next step?
I agree with the suggestion of others here: Tell your FIL and MIL very clearly, more than once (and keep a copy of your letters or e-mails) in advance that you are not able to have them stay with you, and then simply lock up the house and go to stay in a hotel during the time they are expected. If you have a neighbor you're on good terms with, you could tell them you're going away and say you'll call to check that the house is okay. If your FIL and MIL arrive and either camp on the lawn or try to break into the house, tell your neighbors to call the police. I suspect, however, that they will go away, because the whole point of the trip is to impose on you and your husband. If you're not there, there's no reason for them to stay around.
Meanwhile, have you thought of seeking some counselling together? A good counsellor could help both of you understand your feelings about the situation, and help you work out techniques for dealing with your H's family in the future.
I wish both of you the best of luck with this. It is a very hard thing to do, but I think it will bring you big rewards.
Morgan
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There comes a time when you simply have to do what is necessary to get destructive people out of your life. No way would I allow these people in my house, ever. Recently we received a package and card from my husband's N mother. She wants back into his life because he is doing well. Coupled with a call from his father, on my hubby's private cell number (father got it from my hubby's half-sister). Supposedly to wish him a happy birthday, but really fishing for freebies and what he could get from him. Hubby didn't fall for it so we haven't had a call from father again. Mother we took the bulls by the horn. Wrapped her unopened present up in a box with a very official, curt message that he has told her not to contact him in th past and if she continued to disobey his wishes, he would consider it harrassment and would deal with it legally. We have not heard from her since as well.
I would deal with these people with letters before they show up and if they show up on the door step, I'd call the police, period. Otherwise this will continue forever. You cannot allow these people to victimize you further. I know its hard to do, but you will be surprised how much power you take back when you do what must be done, finally.
Good luck.
Lizbeth
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There comes a time when you simply have to do what is necessary to get destructive people out of your life. No way would I allow these people in my house, ever. Recently we received a package and card from my husband's N mother. She wants back into his life because he is doing well. Coupled with a call from his father, on my hubby's private cell number (father got it from my hubby's half-sister). Supposedly to wish him a happy birthday, but really fishing for freebies and what he could get from him. Hubby didn't fall for it so we haven't had a call from father again. Mother we took the bulls by the horn. Wrapped her unopened present up in a box with a very official, curt message that he has told her not to contact him in th past and if she continued to disobey his wishes, he would consider it harrassment and would deal with it legally. We have not heard from her since as well.
I would deal with these people with letters before they show up and if they show up on the door step, I'd call the police, period. Otherwise this will continue forever. You cannot allow these people to victimize you further. I know its hard to do, but you will be surprised how much power you take back when you do what must be done, finally.
Good luck.
Lizbeth
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Sorry, somehow I posted that twice, was not intentional.
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Violet,
I respect and agree with all of the responses you have received. But I'd like to add that if you choose to set your boundaries, you must be prepared for whatever outcome may result.
I have not seen thus far a situation that resembles mine, so I feel I must warn you about worst case scenario. My N parents do not deal at all with being told "no" to anything. I recently took control back for my life and I have been completely ousted. From most of the responses I have read on this message board, most N parents will continue to pursue a relationship, and most readers would probably rather be in my situation.
But I stood my ground, set my limits, and cannot get a response from anyone in my family at all now. I have successfully shaken up the family 'balance' and I am not a living being in the family any longer. My parents will not answer the phone when I try to call.
The reason I have attempted to call them is that they use 'no-communication' as their form of punishment. Thus, the reason I found this message board. When I was young, they punished in any form they felt. But after I moved away, they use 'we will not talk to you until you change your ways' mode. They are just staying in control of me because they refuse to talk. They live 2000 miles away and have complete control over my siblings. So even though I feel I have taken control back for my life, it is only a fantasy that I cannot achieve. I can keep them from harassing us, but that's all. I cannot hear that I made any headway in completing my journey, because I am a nobody, I do not exist in my family anymore. I am dead to them. No one is allowed to speak of me.
So in a nutshell, be careful what you wish for. If you are not willing to take the worst case scenario yet, take it a little at a time until you are sure what you can handle.
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This is very sage advice, but as you have also said, many people here on this board would envy your position as well. You don't need people in your life, including family, who would discard you that way simply because your parents aren't allowed to run over you any longer. Believe me, when they all realize you aren't waiting for them to contact you any longer, they will realize they have lost their power to control you (entire family in your case) and you will have the freedom to be the adult you want to be.
Violet,
I respect and agree with all of the responses you have received. But I'd like to add that if you choose to set your boundaries, you must be prepared for whatever outcome may result.
I have not seen thus far a situation that resembles mine, so I feel I must warn you about worst case scenario. My N parents do not deal at all with being told "no" to anything. I recently took control back for my life and I have been completely ousted. From most of the responses I have read on this message board, most N parents will continue to pursue a relationship, and most readers would probably rather be in my situation.
But I stood my ground, set my limits, and cannot get a response from anyone in my family at all now. I have successfully shaken up the family 'balance' and I am not a living being in the family any longer. My parents will not answer the phone when I try to call.
The reason I have attempted to call them is that they use 'no-communication' as their form of punishment. Thus, the reason I found this message board. When I was young, they punished in any form they felt. But after I moved away, they use 'we will not talk to you until you change your ways' mode. They are just staying in control of me because they refuse to talk. They live 2000 miles away and have complete control over my siblings. So even though I feel I have taken control back for my life, it is only a fantasy that I cannot achieve. I can keep them from harassing us, but that's all. I cannot hear that I made any headway in completing my journey, because I am a nobody, I do not exist in my family anymore. I am dead to them. No one is allowed to speak of me.
So in a nutshell, be careful what you wish for. If you are not willing to take the worst case scenario yet, take it a little at a time until you are sure what you can handle.
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So even though I feel I have taken control back for my life, it is only a fantasy that I cannot achieve. I can keep them from harassing us, but that's all. I cannot hear that I made any headway in completing my journey, because I am a nobody, I do not exist in my family anymore. I am dead to them. No one is allowed to speak of me.
Hi Ellie --
It sounds as though you thought that "completing your journey" meant getting your family to acknowledge that you were right to take a stand. I think most people on the board would agree that this is something Ns will never do. I can't remember where I read what I thought was some very wise advice about confronting an N -- the advice was that you should not expect anything at all from the N -- no understanding, no acceptance of your feelings, no admission that your ideas have any validity at all -- because if you do, you will be disappointed. The only reason to do it is for your own reasons and satisfaction.
I am sorry that you have been cut off by your family, but it does not surprise me that they would not change. I hope you are able to find satisfaction and completion in living your own life.
You are quite right that Violet may end up being rejected by her family if she and her husband stand up to them. However, from everything she has said, I think she would consider that a good outcome.
All the best,
Morgan
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Hi, Violet,
Just another voice chiming in: I also think you have every right to tell them they can't stay in your house. At all. And you don't have to explain yourself or argue. Just, "I'm sorry, you can't stay here. We can't put you up." So they might stay in their car instead? Fine! That's their choice. Their problem. Not yours. As the line from the song goes: "Closing time. You don't have to go home but you can't stay here."
And yes, absolutely, close the door on them with their packages. And if they start harassing you, banging on the door or whatnot, call the cops. I'm serious.
I think what may have to happen here is that you may have to play "bad cop," since it sounds like your husband can't or won't stand up to them. You can't make him do that, but you can stand up for yourself. It's your house.
And if your husband lets them in anyway? You know what I'd do: take the kids and go to a motel myself until they decide to haul out of there.
Since you say that their M.O. is to go on to the next source of N supply when one doesn't work out...well, hey! They must have someone else they can bother. Let them!
Good luck...
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maybe don't open thedoor to let them in. go on vacation anyything but be therre when they come.