Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on January 12, 2008, 08:24:52 AM
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I could use some advice. To the people who are offended that I have a relationship with my M---an N--please don't respond. A relationship with an N can be navigated in different ways for different people . I would like the respect to do it my own way.
This is what happened. I have been trying to heal my stomach aches, which are caused by trying to avoid 'shame".My friend helped me to get a big piece of the puzzle. When my Aunt told me that she thought I was fine, emotionally, I got a bad stomach ache .
My friend told me that it was my 'punishing myself" for being normal before my M could punish me. How freaking bleh is that?
I realized that my friend was right.
Yesterday,I was talking to my M. She knew that I had had these stomach aches. She told me ,on her last visit, that I was too thin, so she knows I have been struggling with this , very badly.
Well, she said," *I* know why you are having the stomach aches."I said,'Why?"
She gave me the exact answer my friend did. She KNEW all along what and how she was destroying me,but she never tried to help me out of it by TELLING me the truth.
After I got off the phone, the evil of it hit me. In know that we, with N parents, have to touch and taste a measure of evil that people should not have to taste with their own parents(IMO)
Maybe I am wrong, but I can't see my Aunt being "evil" to her kids. I can't see it.
Anyway, to the people I annoy,please don't respond b/c I am hurting from an N M---whether or not I have contact or not. I almost died from the effects of an N M. I have every right to be here and to tell my story.
I appreciate any responses. Ami
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Dear Ami,
I'm not offended by you or your choices. Not annoyed, either.
Could you please clarify your question here? I hear you asking for advice and responses, but with regard to what exactly?
Thanks!
With love,
Carolyn
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I could use some advice. To the people who are offended that I have a relationship with my M---an N--please don't respond
Dear Ami,
Please know, that at no time have I been offended by you having a relationship with your NMother.
You are an individual person with a right to choose, as is your freedom of choice, and your voice, as you, Ami.
As for me personally, I am in No Contact with my NM, and Limited Contact with my NFather, as is my personal choice and decision.
Of course, you have every right to be here and tell your story, and, as such, sincerely, I am concerned that you may be feeling otherwise, and wondering why exactly. Have you been told different?
You have the freedom of choice in all aspects of your own personal life, and of course, more so, here too, with your healing journey.
Love, Leah
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Ami,
I suspect the difference is your friend thought you were behaving incorrectly by punishing yourself whereas your M probably believes you are doing the right thing because you deserve it. She's not going to 'help you out' when she think's it's appropriate.
Ns always believe others around them deserve punishment to keep them in line.
mud
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Dear Ami,
Realization, that your M is a therapist, of some 20 years, I seem to recall you saying.
So, M pronounces with an air of N Superiority "I knew that you had stomach aches"
Of course M would know, because, she is equipped to know, from her own clients life experience and voice!
Yes, that is evil.
My M is not a therapist, however, she told me on the phone way back, what I was feeling, and my research proved that she knew
exactly how I was feeling inside, from her Gaslighting work on me!!!
Yes, that was evil.
Some don't like the word evil, but, to me personally, it presents no issue, as some people, sadly, cunningly think up evil things to do.
The realization and validation you have now, is that your M is sitting on the outside looking in, knowing exactly what you are going through and how you feel.
That is not a nice feeling to have, I know, because, I had that feeling too, from my N Mother.
Anxiety and Stomach Ache for you, Ami.
The Shame belongs to your M ...... not you, so you can choose to give it back to her, she owns it.
Love, Leah
PS >>> I apologize to everyone here on the board for using that choice of word.
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Dear Ami,
Realization, that your M is a therapist, of some 20 years, I seem to recall you saying.
So, M pronounces with an air of N Superiority "I knew that you had stomach aches"
Of course M would know, because, she is equipped to know, from her own clients life experience and voice!
Yes, that is evil.
Dear Ami and Leah,
I am not prepared to pronounce what is evil and what is not - if that is indeed the question here.
It would help alot to have heard the context in which your mother spoke this statement to you, Ami...
did she raise the topic out of the blue?
what was her tone?
Also, my understanding of her statement was not that she was telling you she's always known you have stomach aches,
but rather that she now knows why you are having stomach aches. Since you've been married and away from your family home for many years, I don't know how much contact you've had with your mother re: the state of your health/weight/stomach... but all of those factors would come into play here, I think. That's why I asked for more clarification... because I don't want to assume anything about what exactly transpired in your conversation with your mother or how much informationg she actually possesses about you and your condition. You see... I am well aware of how my own expectations of people have often given me a slanted view of them... specifically my presumptions of their mind-reading ability, which of course, is fantasy thinking.
Thanks for listening to my explanation of why I did not want to be quick to comment here.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. I addressed this to you, Leah, as well... because you may be absolutely correct in your assessment! I just don't feel any certainty of that and so didn't want to come across as saying that I contradict your view of what's happening... just I really can't say for sure.
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P.S. I addressed this to you, Leah, as well... because you may be absolutely correct in your assessment! I just don't feel any certainty of that and so didn't want to come across as saying that I contradict your view of what's happening... just I really can't say for sure.
Dear Carolyn,
What assessment ???
I shared my own experience with my N M with freedom of expressing using my own choice of word(s) and including Ami's word fo Evil.
There are many threads on the board with the word Evil included, as thread topic titles, and as postings, I checked first, out of consideration and care.
Now, I must check to see how I may be perceived as having made an assessment, which I would never consider doing.
Thought we were sharing and discussing, that's all.
Love, Leah
She knew that I had had these stomach aches. She told me ,on her last visit
PS >>> going to edit the word evil.
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She gave me the exact answer my friend did. She KNEW all along what and how she was destroying me,but she never tried to help me out of it by TELLING me the truth.
I wouldn't take her word about what she actually knew. At least in my experience this believing they KNEW things is part of the standard N repertoire of behaviors. The need to feel right and knowledgeable leads them to distort their own memories and perceptions. My N-autistic father does it all the time. No matter what happens, he claims he knew it was going to happen in advance. I think it's a sort of a God complex. Knowledge makes them powerful and keeps them from realizing what they can't (or couldn't) control.
Just recently I had a cousin die of unnatural causes (as yet undetermined) and when my father called me to give me the news, he claimed he KNEW it was going to happen. Well it seems kind of evil of him to know something and not do anything to prevent it happening. But of course he never actually knew anything. He's just making this false claim in the present moment.
So I'd say your mothers actions are definitely N-ish, but I wouldn't jump to believing her past actions were consciously evil. She's just an N being an N and this sort of distortion is typical.
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Dear Leah,
I'm sorry. I didn't expect you to react so strongly, or I probably wouldn't have said a thing. Clearly I didn't word my post properly. I got the idea that you were making an assessment based on these words of yours:
So, M pronounces with an air of N Superiority "I knew that you had stomach aches"
It was not your use of the word evil which led me to the thought that you'd made an assessment, but rather the above phrase.
Re: the use of the word evil, I agree that some people do lie on their beds plotting such... I was simply saying that I was not prepared on this thread to pronounce what is evil and what is not.
Again, I'm sorry for creating a stir, if that's an appropriate term. I just felt (and still do feel) that there are many unanswered questions relating to what actually transpired between Ami and her mother and I did not want to assume anything.
Love,
Carolyn
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One further note of explanation.
I just read the post by tjr100 (hi, tjr) and agree completely!
The only difference is, I did not read and understand what Ami posted in the same way that I see you did, tjr.
Whew, it's hard to explain in typing, but I hear Ami saying, "My mother gave me the exact answer my friend did"
and then I hear Ami extrapolating, assuming, guessing, from that... that her mother has always known the problem.
Hopefully Ami will clarify.
Sorry again about my confusion.
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn and Leah,
Thank you for those words. Here is my question,Carolyn. My M is a therapist. She does know "some" things,by virtue of being a therapist for over 20 years.
When she visited, I was complaining of putting my emotional pain ,in to my stomach. She told me that I had to figure out WHAT I was doing.
Now , I realize that she KNEW ,all along, what the answer to the problem was,but wouldn't tell me or help me b/c the problem was rooted in how SHE treated me. Do you understand what I am saying? Love Ami
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Dear Leah,
I'm sorry. I didn't expect you to react so strongly, or I probably wouldn't have said a thing. Clearly I didn't word my post properly. I got the idea that you were making an assessment based on these words of yours:
So, M pronounces with an air of N Superiority "I knew that you had stomach aches"
It was not your use of the word evil which led me to the thought that you'd made an assessment, but rather the above phrase.
Re: the use of the word evil, I agree that some people do lie on their beds plotting such... I was simply saying that I was not prepared on this thread to pronounce what is evil and what is not.
Again, I'm sorry for creating a stir, if that's an appropriate term. I just felt (and still do feel) that there are many unanswered questions relating to what actually transpired between Ami and her mother and I did not want to assume anything.
Love,
Carolyn
Dear Carolyn,
No stir, no problem.
I wrote of MY own experience in my posting, which you may have not read, or misinterpreted, with MY N Mother which Ami can use, if she
wishes, to resonate, or not, as she discerns from MY explanation of handing the Shame to MY N Mother who owns it, now I.
My experience is very real with all MY N Mother did to me, in every genre and aspect.
Ami will write of how appertains to her experience from what I have shared as my understanding, as she wishes, or not.
I am not a fixer or a doing person or an assessor.
My current career choice more than satisfies me and fulfills me, and quite simply, I don't have the time, nor the inclination, or need.
Hope that explains, me, as a person.
And, I am relieved that Ami has other posters, who most likely, are more geared up to sharing their experience and insight, as a guide for her.
Now I will away to continue working through my own work of 'shame dumping' as per my thread posting earlier. :)
Lots to do for my journey.
Love, Leah
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Dear Carolyn and Leah,
Thank you for those words. Here is my question,Carolyn. My M is a therapist. She does know "some" things,by virtue of being a therapist for over 20 years.
When she visited, I was complaining of putting my emotional pain ,in to my stomach. She told me that I had to figure out WHAT I was doing.
Now , I realize that she KNEW ,all along, what the answer to the problem was,but wouldn't tell me or help me b/c the problem was rooted in how SHE treated me. Do you understand what I am saying? Love Ami
Thank you, Ami.
What I am hearing you say is that your mother did not tell you that she'd always known what was wrong with your stomach.
Is that correct? Once that is known, then I can comment more completely.
When you say that she now, on the phone, has given you the exact answer you got from your friend, could you please share what were your mother's words?
Love,
Carolyn
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Dear Leah, Carolyn, tjr100 and Mud
My last post was out of context. I have a "brain overload" at the moment, so I will come back later and try to take in all that you so, generously, ,wrote to me.
I think that I will call her,too, and see what she says. Thank you so much for your help. It is greatly appreciated. Love Ami
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You're welcome, Ami.
Praying it goes well.
Love,
Carolyn
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Ami,
I suspect the difference is your friend thought you were behaving incorrectly by punishing yourself whereas your M probably believes you are doing the right thing because you deserve it. She's not going to 'help you out' when she think's it's appropriate.
Ns always believe others around them deserve punishment to keep them in line.
mud
Mud,
That so resonates with me, in regard to my N Mother, who truly did, does, believe, that those around her deserve puishment, always, one at a time.
Thank you.
Leah
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I wouldn't take her word about what she actually knew. At least in my experience this believing they KNEW things is part of the standard N repertoire of behaviors. The need to feel right and knowledgeable leads them to distort their own memories and perceptions. My N-autistic father does it all the time. No matter what happens, he claims he knew it was going to happen in advance. I think it's a sort of a God complex. Knowledge makes them powerful and keeps them from realizing what they can't (or couldn't) control.
Just recently I had a cousin die of unnatural causes (as yet undetermined) and when my father called me to give me the news, he claimed he KNEW it was going to happen. Well it seems kind of evil of him to know something and not do anything to prevent it happening. But of course he never actually knew anything. He's just making this false claim in the present moment.
So I'd say your mothers actions are definitely N-ish, but I wouldn't jump to believing her past actions were consciously evil. She's just an N being an N and this sort of distortion is typical.
Dear tjr,
Although my understanding is that Ami's mother did not claim any such foreknowledge or omniscience,
I wanted to tell you how very much your post resonates with me and my dealings with some people.. both family and friends...
to whom you can simply never, ever tell anything that they don't already claim to know! Wow, it gets monotonous.
I absolutely agree with you about that control complex and
my sense of it has been that they're just so very afraid of being caught unprepared or uninformed, that they're alot like the little kid
who, when he messes up, will say, "I meant to do that!"
Anyhow, I always appreciate your posts and... my condolences on the loss of your cousin.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Dear Leah,
I'm sorry. I didn't expect you to react so strongly, or I probably wouldn't have said a thing. Clearly I didn't word my post properly. I got the idea that you were making an assessment based on these words of yours:
So, M pronounces with an air of N Superiority "I knew that you had stomach aches"
It was not your use of the word evil which led me to the thought that you'd made an assessment, but rather the above phrase.
Love,
Carolyn
Dear Carolyn,
I see how your misunderstanding has occurred, with the misinterpretation of .... So, ...... is a question. Hope that clarifies.
BTW, I only voiced in response with explanation, and validation, truly, I did not react.
"it's good to talk" :)
hope your have a super weekend.
Love to you,
Leah
PS > I * see * that Ami is going to phone her M to clarify.
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My definition of evil is an act on another person(s) that is harmful without remorse and with the definite sense of gain for the perpetrator. There can be lots of types of "gain" but there is only one type of "lack of remorse".
I agree with Mudpuupy and find his answer very astute - N's, IMO, do want you to suffer, esp. when they're in the throes of protecting themselves.
Kate
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Dear tjr100
My sincere thoughts for you, with your recent sad loss.
Love and much Peace,
Leah
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Dear Kate,
I resonate, and agree, with your summation.
And am grateful at this time, today, for Mud's valuable validation, regarding my N Mother.
Leah
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That so resonates with me, in regard to my N Mother, who truly did, does, believe, that those around her deserve puishment, always, one at a time.
What's truly kind of comical in its profound sense of entitlement is, that while everyone around them deserves constant punishment, they think merely having to share the planet with the likes of us is more punishment than they themselves could ever deserve.
mud
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Ami,
I actually had another thought about your situation. You said you got your stomach ache after your Aunt said she thought you were emotionally fine. Are you fine emotionally? What was your response to your Aunt after she said this?
From other posts of yours, I can see that you have a deep love and affection for your Aunt and put a lot of stock in what she says. Perhaps you felt dismissed or not heard by her?
This is how I envision it.
Ami: My dearest Aunt, I feel like a mess.
Aunt: You seem fine to me.
Ami: (confused and a bit hurt): Yeah, okay. You must be right.
Stomach ache: Oooh. Where's Ami? I've missed her so.
Just a different view. I could be waaaay off.
Lollie
Oh Lollie,
I can * see * just how and why, Ami would have the stomach ache after speaking with her Aunt
That resonates with me, especially, in my thoughts and work yesterday and today, and posting, regarding working on how one is DISMISSED.
That confirms for me also, as a person, why my tummy churned after speaking with my N Mother, who had a PhD in DISMISSING (honestly).
Ami: (confused and a bit hurt): Yeah, okay. You must be right.
Stomach ache: Oooh. Where's Ami? I've missed her so.
........... then Ami comes off the phone and posts onto the board, and if unfortunately, for Ami, we don't happen to 'get it'
.... Ami remains 'lost in a void of confusion' and then Ami's stomach ache gets worse!! maybe?
Just a thought as I * see * how that could be.
Love, Leah
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Dear Ami, Your M may be evil, or just capable of acts of evil sometimes. I think of `psychopaths' as the evil ones, because they consciously think out their actions, fully aware of the pain and harm they cause. N's tend to react to what feels good, and what feels bad, perhaps like everyone else. But their actions can be so harmful, I wonder whether it really matters if they are motivated by unconscious needs or not??
Ami, may I ask, what are you ashamed of? Is there anything `real'? You are a lovely , beautiful woman, loved by many people, generous and loyal to friends, funny, honest, a great listener, a good mother of two sons. What else do you expect to be, Ami? What more can a woman be? I know how you feel though; I struggle to accept myself too, but i am half the woman you are. I am not beautiful and i struggle against my shame for being like this, and I do not have a home or a family, or any wealth. I have good things though, that I am grateful to have - my aprtner's companionship each day, and his love, animals around me, some passions to keep me interested in life. But its so much less than what you have Ami. I could only dream of being in your position some day!
I suppose I'm getting side-tracked now, sorry Ami. I am sorry your stomach problems are still bad, and i admire you for continuing to try to work through that.
X bella
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Oh Bella
I am so HUMBLED that you would think of me that way. I can't even write,now. I will write,later. Thank you for your kind words. They are so beautiful and healing to me! Love Ami
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Dear Carolyn, Leah, Mud, tjr100, Lollie, towrite, Bella,
Thank you for your responses. I talked to my M last night. I guess that I had it wrong. She was NOT withholding information so she could stay in a 'better" position than I.
She did not know the answer.
Lollie, what happened was when my Aunt complimented me, I got a stomach ache to 'Punish" myself for being "normal" and "good" BEFORE my M could punish me.
That is my "dynamic". I am afraid of my own power b/c my M made me "pay" for confidence and trust in myself. I would give up anything to stop the monster(my M's rage) from coming out.
So, that is what happened with my Aunt and my M.
I have to be comfortable with my own power. Otherwise, I will stay an abused person--bleh.That is my current journey.
I always have to remember that ALL this pain humbled me enough to find God and it was a very small price to pay. Thank you so much for being there for me--every caring friend that responded. Love came over the computer in to my heart. Carolyn and Leah, I want you to know that I had a situation ,yesterday where I used some of the things you taught me.
I had a group of friends , believers in Jesus, who I parted ways with 10 years ago. I saw them ,yesterday. I treated THEM how YOU treated me, with love and forgiveness. They treated me the SAME way.It was like there was never any rift. We talked about old times ,kids,life , maturing, mistakes etc. We laughed . It was the power of Jesus and trying to act in love.
Thank you for the lessons. I learned about real life,once again, on the board. Love Ami
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Thank you for the update, Ami. I think you did really well to get clarification and not just run off with your initial assumption. From what I've experienced, that's what it takes to step into maturity.... not that I'm there (yet), but determined to continue putting one step in front of the other. I sense that you are committed to the same.
Colossians 3 is such a meaningful portion of the Bible to me...
Set your affections on things above - - - what a deliberate act of will, to set our mind, will, and emotions - to fix them, consciously - onto things spiritual, and not fleshly. That's what breaks off the old chains, which reside just as much in our own thinking as in anything a personality disordered person can do to us.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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these are YOUR choices Ami.
I have maintained a civil relationship with my ex despite the odds, I could not call myself a Christian and walk away from him in his suffering, though some people might say I should not call myself Christian anyway, since I don't believe in sacrements or worshipping Jesus as G_d!
Do you see what I am pointing out- it's perfectly okay to form your own view of things, and not be too worried if it leaves you out of step with others sometimes.
My therapist expressed it when she started with me and refused to see ex simultaneously as: it is very important if I am going to help you for me to support your reality. Doesn't make his right or wrong, just too different to be in both at the same time- I'm not that good!
Love
~W
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Yes, Write
I resonate with your posting on Choice.
As per my recent personal work on the subject, and posting, as we really do have the freedom of choice, which includes the freedom to ask questions, make a mistake, or change our mind. :)
It is wonderful to own a view with an open heart, which I try to do, being teachable ~ but, at the same time, with a healthy boundary of being closed to soul intrusion, now that I have learned.
"wonderful life" and an interesting one! :)
Enjoy your day.
Love, Leah
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Dear Ami
Thank you for your update, with such openness and maturity.
Blessed to know that Jesus is teaching and leading you.
And your time with your friends must have been so very liberating to your soul, for you, as a person.
Love to you and enjoy your day.
Love, Leah
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IMHO, "evil" has everything to do with intent. I have an Nsis who is truly evil in my opinion because her hurtful actions are behaviors are intended to hurt others. Ns are fully aware of the difference between right and wrong. They just are so self-centered that they don't give a thought to others. Similarly, psychopaths are aware of right and wrong but they have no conscience. They are fully aware that the other person will be hurt by their actions....they simply don't care. Other people and their feelings are simply not on their radar. The same is true for many Ns. Their only concern is their feelings and pain, not anyone else's. That's why if you ever get into an argument with an N and try to explain that something they did or said really hurt your feelings, the conversation will instantaneously revert to how they feel. They cannot focus on anyone but themselves. They think the world should only be aware of their feelings, wants, desires, etc. No one else matters but them.
So for me, evil is all about the intention and motivation. Behaviors exhibited by "evil" people are usually malicious, mean-spirited and cruel. Evil people know their actions will hurt others because they are meant to. Evil people take great pleasure in exacting pain from others. They desperately want to see other people hurt.
Unfortunately, we all, at one time or another, do or say something to hurt another person. But the difference is the intention. Most of us never willfully do things to hurt others. Evil people do.
Just my two cents.
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So for me, evil is all about the intention and motivation. Behaviors exhibited by "evil" people are usually malicious, mean-spirited and cruel. Evil people know their actions will hurt others because they are meant to. Evil people take great pleasure in exacting pain from others. They desperately want to see other people hurt.
Unfortunately, we all, at one time or another, do or say something to hurt another person. But the difference is the intention. Most of us never willfully do things to hurt others. Evil people do.
Thank you, Sunblue
Very much valued and appreciated, as validation is priceless
and so very reassuring.
I resonate with your view and thoughts, in agreement and acceptance.
Love, Leah