Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on January 12, 2008, 06:16:02 PM
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I have a question, and I figure the more people I talk to will help me figure out what I'm feeling.
I went on a date today. I've never actually been on a date, and this one was very low key. I wasn't feeling too much anxiety until the girl showed up, then I started feeling it. I was so nervous, but we had fun and by the time the date ended I was feeling much more relaxed. I liked her, but I don't know how to tell what I'm really feeling. If I really just liked her as a friend or if there's something more.
And I'm having a really hard time with touch and being touched. I wanted to touch her, and the most I managed was a hug when she got there and when left. A few times I started to reach and caught myself. I'm just afraid to touch and be intimate. I guess I need some help. I'll talk to my T about it. I'm seeing her this week.
I just don't know how I feel, truthfully I feel sort of numb. She had mentioned she might want to get together tomorrow, but I might have to turn her down because I need a day to process things.
Maybe I'm overanalyzing this?
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Intimacy is a "bummer" for those of us with a lot of shame from an N parent. Ami
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But see Ami, I don't want it to be a bummer. I like this person, and I want to be able to touch her without cringing. She's not an N, and I'm tired of feeling crippled because I go stiff when someone hugs me, touches me or tries to get close.
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Your shame about yourself is what IS making you cringe(IMO). Your healing needs to start there ,in order to reach your goal--intimacy with another person(IMO) Ami
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Dear Tayana,
Do you have mutual interest in common (I dunno, really- like hiking, or seeing movies, a band, or something?). Maybe the pressure would ease a bit if you did something like that?
X bella
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Dear Bella,
You are so "practical" and *I* am so "deep"(LOL) Love Ami
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Dear T,
Think you are very brave and I admire your courage............too scared to do any dating myself.
xxxxxxxx
axa
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I have a question, and I figure the more people I talk to will help me figure out what I'm feeling.
I went on a date today. I've never actually been on a date, and this one was very low key. I wasn't feeling too much anxiety until the girl showed up, then I started feeling it. I was so nervous, but we had fun and by the time the date ended I was feeling much more relaxed. I liked her, but I don't know how to tell what I'm really feeling. If I really just liked her as a friend or if there's something more.
And I'm having a really hard time with touch and being touched. I wanted to touch her, and the most I managed was a hug when she got there and when left. A few times I started to reach and caught myself. I'm just afraid to touch and be intimate. I guess I need some help. I'll talk to my T about it. I'm seeing her this week.
I just don't know how I feel, truthfully I feel sort of numb. She had mentioned she might want to get together tomorrow, but I might have to turn her down because I need a day to process things.
Maybe I'm overanalyzing this?
Is this a first date? If so, it's OK to take things slow.
Bones
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What's dating ???
Yours truly,
Leah 'scaredy cat'
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Ami, I am not ashamed. I am afraid. There is a difference.
Bella, we do have a lot in common. We're thinking about seeing a movie next.
This was a first date, and we've both agreed to go slow. however, she's a very touchy person, and I'm not.
Axa, if it makes you feel better I am scared to death. At one point, H gave me a hug and said, "Thanks for being brave." This took a lot for me to do, even in such a relaxed atmosphere.
Leah, I'm still not sure what dating is. This was the first one I've ever been on.
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What's 'touchy'?
Holding hands as you walk down the street, or sit in a theatre? or is crawliing all over you?
OK!
Hug when you start
And hug when you parti
In between talk of movies and art
Then go home alone and think.
You talked about books
How well each one cooks
You did like her looks!
You'll know whether or not you're in sync
Dating is just two people getting together to enjoy time together at a gallery, a movie, a dance, for dinner, for a drink,
Well I remember a first date with a guy when I was 21. We were in the same bowling league, but separate teams. He really took to me and when he bowled his frame, he would come over to me and for 3-4 months would try to kiss me and I never allowed it, but tension was building over that length of time.
We finally went on a date about 4 months into this and he was all male, held me like Rhett Butler, standing and thoroughly kissed me and my knees buckled and he had to drag me to a chair, because I couldn't stand! Ho ho ho BOY!!
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Touchy is . . . well, she wasn't crawling all over me. I couldn't have handled that. I would have totally freaked in fact. She would brush against me sometimes, touch my back, my hand. I managed the hug when we started and the hug when we left. I even initiated the one when we left. We talked and laughed. She told me I had pretty eyes and was beautiful and all of that stuff. I don't do well on the reciprocating end of things like that. I think I listened a lot and talked about neutral topics a lot.
We finally went on a date about 4 months into this and he was all male, held me like Rhett Butler, standing and thoroughly kissed me and my knees buckled and he had to drag me to a chair, because I couldn't stand! Ho ho ho BOY!!
Izzy, I hope this was a good thing. LOL!
I guess I'm just not used to really showing emotion. I've always been so guarded. H said she wished we had a few more hours (she had to leave) because I would have been relaxed by then. She was probably right. So that was my first real date. I've had sort of dates before, but nothing like today. It really was wonderful.
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The first part sounds okay, but for the touching, if you really didn't like it Did any part of that paragraph bother you? If so, then honesty is best and TIME takes care of a lot of things. and Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo an brush up against you, a hand on your back, your hand---she likes you-- and things like that would make me flip--but that is the physical--there is more and you know.
and OK--if today was really wonderful, all things included, then you have had a taste of what is to come.
My Rhett Butler was married, but legally separated. Divorce laws in Canada did not change until 1968. He and I were 1961.
I was (maybe still am) 'old school' was wild about him but it felt so hopeless. I was at his parents house and met them and his sister. They were all great and liked me. But I couldn''t open up about where we stood, he, me, us, I.
I love his name. Jack Delaney! My tummy does a little flip when I remember that first kiss.
Then I thought I might be preganat, six-seven months in, and I ran away. I wasn't pregnant. I moved 500 miles away and he was so baffled, knew I was holding back, couldn't understand, and I had no idea what I was going to do. Then my period came--but he was still a married man.
I have run away from many things without explaining, because I just never knew what to do. Wrong! Wrong! Dishonest!
Cheers
Izzy
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I am so glad and happy for you that you had a wonderful time! I agree that those little touches she gave you were signs that she REALLY TRULY does like you. I did want to say here that you shouldn't pressure yourself at this point about what you feel. You really don't know this person well yet and aren't expected to know what you feel. I am pretty much in isolation at this point, but if I weren't I would have a rule that I never got TOO involved with anyone for the first six months. Never anything I couldn't just walk away from. The thing is that in dating you tend to see someone's "Dating face" for the first four to six months. At the sixth month point you should have seen them in enough situations to have some idea who they really are. If you still like who they are at six months then you can start to decide how you feel. Right now, just enjoy getting to know someone that thinks you are wonderful.
E
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Heck, Tay...you did great.
I don't understand why someone's supposed to be ready for intimate touches on the first date, or even the sixth.
I think touching is more comfortable and more meaningful when it arises out of a sense of knowing who you're touching. Wanting to touch the person, not just the attractive body.
So I say there's nothing wrong with you, and there's no reason you have to be rushed.
If you feel rushed, just say so. If you're really liking her, just say that too.
I agree that doing active things together, not just things where you're always sitting close together, is a good idea.
Years ago when people dated we intentionally did as many different types of things as we could think of...not just the meal and movie.
Enjoy it at YOUR pace. That's a boundary thing. And you get to set them no matter who it is.
love,
Hops
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Tayana: You have had some superb insight and guidance ~ I had not thought of a boundary being set with 'at your pace'
have made a mental note of that, and all, though ...
as I have shared, I have not dated yet (avoidance of the idea still - scaredy cat mode)
However,
Izzy: Rhett Butler and 'old school' ~ I like - that's me, and so want to be treated right, and accepted as me.
Emptied: Resonate with all you have shared, as that is how I would want to be in dating.
Hops: Resonate with all you have shared also, and I could not be rushed, if I sensed being rushed, I would run away.
Grateful to have listened,
Love, Leah
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Tay:
I think it makes it worse to worry about being freaked out over intimate touch.
You're not ready with this person right now, and that's understandable and perfdectly normal.
Giving yourself space and asking for space is appropriate and makes it easier to get more comfortable, if it's to come at all, IMO.
Once you've spent time, gotten to know her and, most importantly, become comfortable with herr...... you can tell if you want more touch or not.
Slow down and look forward to the trip. Relax. It's gonna be OK.
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Always 'deep"(lol), I think that our journey with intimacy is first a journey to love and accept ourselves. I am just starting to do that now. I always had the "backwards" version of relationships. I will give to you, all I have, IF you tell me who I am and love me ENOUGH so I can love myself. This was stressful---very.
Now, I am taking the inner journey in to loving myself. I am not that bad, when I can let go of all that N M garbage. I see glimpses of the old me, who was ,actually, pretty neat.
So, I am taking the inner journey. I hope, someday ,to have outer intimacy ,with a man. It is one of life's greatest pleasures, but it is in God's hands. I have to always remember that He (God) gave me the greatest love possible and I shouldn't complain about what I don't get from life. Tayana, this is just me talking to myself. Excuse me for the soliloquy .LOL Ami
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Thank you for all of the responses. They do help.
Izzy: I didn't mind the touching, really, but it did add to my nerves. I thought I was handling the nerves fairly well, but they finally got to me. Today I don't really feel all that well. I think I made myself sick.
Emptied: Your advice is wonderful, and I think you are right about not being too involved for a while. We're both still at that getting to know you stage even though we talk almost every day either by phone or over email. She has an abusive past as well, so we have a lot of understanding about issues.
Hops: I guess I do feel a little rushed. We're going to go on another date, maybe next weekend. We were going to go today but I feel terrible. So I asked for a raincheck. This is a very different situation for me, since I've never really had a real relationship before and this was my first date. I feel so silly writing that, but it's true.
Lighter: There's that R word, the one I have a really hard time with. I guess I feel like I'm expected to be able to reciprocate, and I have a hard time doing it. I'll attempt to relax and enjoy the ride.
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http://www.drjoecarver.com/3/miscellaneous2.htm
An excerpt or two from a very valuable (longish) article by Dr. Joe Carver, a clinical psychologist, who is in practice in Ohio.
"Very few relationships start on terms other than sweetness and politeness. In the beginning, "the honeymoon" of the relationship, it's difficult to determine what type of individual you are dating. Both you and the date are guarded, trying to obtain information about the other as much as possible without seeming like a police detective."
. Quick Attachment and Expression "The Loser" has very shallow emotions and connections with others. One of the things that might attract you to "The Loser" is how quickly he or she says "I Love You" or wants to marry or commit to you. Typically, in less than a few weeks of dating you'll hear that you're the love of their life, they want to be with you forever, and they want to marry you. You'll receive gifts, a variety of promises, and be showered with their attention and nice gestures. This is the "honeymoon phase" - where they catch you and convince you that they are the best thing that ever happened to you. Remember the business saying "If it's too good to be true it probably is (too good to be true)!" You may be so overwhelmed by this display of instant attraction, instant commitment, and instant planning for the future that you'll miss the major point - it doesn't make sense!! Normal, healthy individuals require a long process to develop a relationship because there is so much at stake. Healthy individuals will wait for a lot of information before offering a commitment - not three weeks. It's true that we can become infatuated with others quickly - but not make such unrealistic promises and have the future planned after three dates. The rapid warm-up is always a sign of shallow emotions which later cause "The Loser" to detach from you as quickly as they committed. "The Loser" typically wants to move in with you or marry you in less than four weeks or very early in the relationship. "
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Thank You, Hermes
Very much valued and appreciated.
Intend to peruse with great interest.
Leah
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Thanks Hermes, I'll have to look at the article in more detail.
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHA so familiar, the loser.
After my first date with Xn I told my brother in law about him next morning at breakfast, his response "he sounds too good to be true"!!!!!!!!!
After a few weeks Xn offered me "everything" I asked him "What is the catch" his response "I am the catch"....................How true.
axa
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHA so familiar, the loser.
After a few weeks Xn offered me "everything" I asked him "What is the catch" his response "I am the catch"....................How true.
axa
Why's it so hard for us to believe people when they tell us who they are?
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Ligher dear, for me the difficulty was that I was still waiting for my prince........now how dumb was that. I thought that because I had been through such a difficult time I deserved somebody wonderful who would be loving, supportive etc. I wanted someone to bring me my happiness. I had forgotten that I have to find my OWN happiness DUH!!!
axa
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Tayana,
I never really dated. My relationships always progressed from a friendship into something more. I don't think I would even know how to date. I suspect I would feel the same as you have described here. Yes, I think you are overanalyzing - and anticipating.... If you like this girl, just go out and be with her. Let things move along as they will. Find shared activities and the romantic part will blossom with the deepened friendship and interests you share.
Good luck and keep us posted!!!!!
Love, Beth
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::sigh::
Axa.... I understand.
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Beth,
Right now H and I are really just friends, nothing more. I introduced her to M as a friend, and he likes her. He really likes her kids.
She's going to come over tomorrow night because she's in my area. It's not what it sounds like. We're going to do a game night and just play some board games or something like that. It's not a date, really, just getting together for fun.
I am confused about something. At what point do I tell M, that she's not really just a friend. H and I have been talking on the phone/email a lot, and at some point I'd really like to go someplace without my son. So when do I tell him she isn't just my cool friend who likes kids.
I was tempted to tell my brother that I'd met someone, but I kept it at friend and left it there.
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Tay,
I would wait until the relationship moved along before mentioning anything of the sort to M. You are more than entitled to adult time, and that is what I would say to M. I think, with kids, they do not need new people in their lives as parental figures unless it is a SURE thing. So, if things go along and you decide H is the one for you and you want to cement the relationship, at that point, I would talk to M, but not before. He has had plenty of upheaval with the lack of father, psycho granadma and so on. Now, you are the person he will look up to and pattern after. My personal opinion is that relationships should be kept separate from children unless they are absolutely in the final form you will choose for your family. Honestly, were something to happen to my husband, I would focus on the kids solely. If I had a personal relationship, I would keep it wholly separate, unless the person were a perfect fit and I felt he could take part in our family. And that would take a lot of proof for me.
H sounds very nice and it is super that her kids like to play with M. The game night sounds like so much fun!!!
Yes, sharing the information with your brother would be nice.
Again, all my personal beliefs...
Love, Beth
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Beth, what you wrote is what I've been thinking, deep down. I was so relieved when I read it. I know this might not last, and that this is just the first blush of infatuation I'm feeling. It might not last, and I don't know how sharp my son really is. He does have an idea about me, so he might figure it out, and if he does, I hope he tells me. Right now, I'm keeping it at the friend level, more of a way of having playmates for M and someone adult for me to talk to.
CB, I think I'm going to go with interaction and no hint that it's anything other than casual friendship. I like her, and she likes me, really likes me. We were going to get together over the weekend, but I think I might ask her for a raincheck. One, I'd like to spend some time with my kid alone and just do something and two, I'm feeling a little rushed and smothered. So, if she can respect me asking for a little space, that's good right?
And maybe I can get my anxiety under control before I see her again after tonight. I really hate this anxiety thing.
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Tay!
Read this book! A Fine Romance by Judith Sills, PhD.
Ask CB for a review!
Really! It will HELP you a TON!!!
xxoo,
Hops
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Thanks Hops. I look for that one.
CB, I did pretty good tonight, really. Not TOO much anxiety, but I still feel rushed and smothered. I'm still going to ask her for my space this weekend. I know that's not very nice, but if she's for real, she'll understand.
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I just ordered "A Fine Romance". It got great Amazon reviews. As I heal inside, intimacy doesn't seem so scary. It feels easier to navigate. I feel like I can still maintain me, within a context of a relationship.
All issues, intimacy included, are an 'inside" job---how we love and value ourselves(IMO) Ami
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Just plain scared of intimacy
axa
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Tay,
Always go with your gut... Don't let her rush you into anything. As you said, if she is for real, she will more than understand. She needs to want YOU, not just a relationship.
Love, Beth
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Axa, I understand totally. I'm still a scared of it too.
Beth, well she seems to want me, but at the same time, I'm inherently suspicious. So I'm still wondering what is wrong with her that she finds me so attractive and wonderful. I'm not used to being either attractive or wonderful. It's a very strange feeling for me.
I wasn't anxious with her last night. Last night I was more concerned about M and M realizing that H is a little more than just a friend.
That's one of the reasons I don't want to go out with her this weekend. I don't want M to think that suddenly there's this new person in my life that's taking over his spot. If I have to choose between them, M always wins.
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How lucky M is to be loved in such a way.
axa
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Thanks Axa. My T tells me I'm a good mom. I'm working on believing her.
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Thanks Axa. My T tells me I'm a good mom. I'm working on believing her.
I believe her, you are a good mom, Tayana.
Leah
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Thanks, Leah. I'm still working on believing her.
I can't explain how incredibly guilty I feel about trying to have a relationship and be a parent too. I feel like I'm depriving my son of my time and attention.
H is very lovely, and I do like her. I think I might have leaped before I was really ready though.
I almost think I could face a horde of N's better than I can try to face my son when he realizes my new friend is more than a friend.
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http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-2546.html
A little article on the subject.
Perhaps the most important aspect of dating is to be sure of what it is you are looking for..
I remember once a discussion about how women do not want what are (perceived) boring men, and want the exciting man( the "loser"!). Maybe women are hard-wired too. Dunno.
Hermes
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Thanks, Leah. I'm still working on believing her.
I can't explain how incredibly guilty I feel about trying to have a relationship and be a parent too. I feel like I'm depriving my son of my time and attention.
H is very lovely, and I do like her. I think I might have leaped before I was really ready though.
I almost think I could face a horde of N's better than I can try to face my son when he realizes my new friend is more than a friend.
Oh, Tayana, truly, that must be so wrenching for you.
My son is grown now and has left the nest, though, that said, I am now wondering as to what my thoughts would be, if and when.
All you can do is be true to yourself, and trust yourself. Knowing that you know what is best for M, and also, for you.
Very best to you, and your dear son.
Leah
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Thanks, Leah. It's new and strange and scary.
Of course, now I've gone and f'ed the whole thing up because I said I felt rushed and scared.
I couldn't handle being the "girlfriend." That was too scary, so now I've done something awful, I think.
I've felt really low all night tonight.
Of course, it could just be that I'm finally taking my doctor's advice and limiting my caffeine. I have a terrible headache.
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OH bullshit, Tay.
You're stating your feelings is perfectly reasonable.
Of course, the girl has a right to get her feelings hurt and withdrawl a bit but.... that doesn't mean you did anything awful.
My guess is, you take a little break and both think about how you felt about the other.
You either miss or more or don't.
If you do, you send a letter or you phone and she (having liked you more from the beginning) invites you back in happily.
I've had exactly that experience before and I worried for nothing.
The fact that he rushed me was wrong.... not that I asked for space.
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Lighter, as always, you've put things into perfect perspective. Thank you.
I actually feel better this morning. Probably from getting things off my chest, so I can now happily plan my weekend alone without pressure or guilt.
She didn't call me last night, even though I asked her too, and I fell asleep early. So we'll just have to see what happens.
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I've felt really low all night tonight.
Of course, it could just be that I'm finally taking my doctor's advice and limiting my caffeine. I have a terrible headache.
Hi Tayana,
Caffeine reduction can give headaches, and the feeling extra tired too.
Did with me a while back.
Hope you and M have a lovely weekend.
Leah
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...get the dang book hon.
love to you,
Hops
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I ordered it, Hops. The dang library didn't have it.
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I did it- I signed up with eharmony!
Decided that will be a way to cope at an emotional distance with the whole feeling a bit superficial/judged superficially aspect of the dating thing until i get the hang of it- what i am doing so far of attaching to someone before I know them properly isn't working. I'll just do loads of unrequited love affairs and repeat my ex-relationship or some aspects of it I think....
Anyway we'll see, maybe I just need to go out a few times and practise relaxing and being myself!
This is a step outside the usual for me, but I just read a book called 'Dealbreakers' and they recommend breaking habits and patterns- meet some different men than your usual pattern and see how it feels.
Hops recommended a book ages ago called 'Escape from Intimacy' which said the same.
I attach too easily...I make myself vulnerable to men who act out.
:shock:
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Good for you Write. The best thing about the online dating thing is that you don't have to reply to anyone who emails you. Just spend some time chatting and meet for coffee or something. It can be fun.
Good luck!
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thanks Tayana.
I hope I can step outside my usual pattern of relating to a man!
I think I'll need to change though, I was talking to my favourite guy friend yesterday, we'd been to a movie with another friend a few days ago and the topic was pretty heavy but the discussion afterwards I was really intense...we were saying it's part of our personality and maybe not 'first date' ( or any date ) appropriate.
Actually I am not quite sure if he and I aren't developing feelings beyond friendship, but he's really busy with his career, to the point he says he can't do a relationship right now. But he looks at me with such undisguised affection sometimes, reminds me what i am looking for eventually!
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it's quite strange this eharmony thing, you send out questions and people either respond or blow you off- it's good practice at 'selection' without emotion anyway. The nice ones send a 'good luck' message when they end the communication.
It's triggering a little defensiveness and 'rejection reaction' but barely uncomfortable, and I am having a good sense of humour about it so far....
no date as yet but it's only been 4 days!
~W
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Hey write. I'm sorry I haven't replied. I haven't been around much.
The online dating thing is a little weird, but it does let you communicate with people without getting too attached or triggered. I was so nervous the few times I've replied to emails. It can be fun. Just keep a sense of humor and it'll be fine.
Just be careful.
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The online dating thing is a little weird, but it does let you communicate with people without getting too attached or triggered. I was so nervous the few times I've replied to emails. It can be fun. Just keep a sense of humor and it'll be fine.
thanks Tayana.
It's actually proving very useful, the structured nature of it.
The profile was MOST REVEALING, nothing I didn't know about myself, but uncanny how they knew :D
It's all showing me a lot about my values too- and where I am letting my idealism become impractical- like saying I'll date anyone from any nationality when i know I will have cultural issues say with a person who believes in male dominated society etc
I'm enjoying it, no dates as yet but lots of matches and communications.
Love
~Write
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Good for you. One of my co-workers does the online thing pretty regularly. That was why I tried it, although I was cheap and found a free place. Not as many people, but I did find someone.
The structured nature is really nice, and so is the fact that you can talk and get to know each other before you actually meet. At least you have something to talk about.
I'm so glad you're giving it a try.