Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Overcomer on January 23, 2008, 09:03:11 AM
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I did something that I am so proud of.
We are planning a reception for my d and her new h. During the wedding planning (three days) I called my mom and told her I hadn't had time to budget for the wedding and that the expenses were frightening me. She said "do not rain on these kids' parade and afterall, YOU did not have a budget on your wedding." (My wedding was over the top huge - the best of everything. But my mom is a wealthy N and it really was all about her. I didn't get to have anything I wanted. It was all about her. In fact, when I emailed one of my bridesmaids and told her about my d's quickie small wedding, she asked me how my mom handled not having a huge spectacle!!)
So I called my mom and asked her if her statement about not raining on their parade and no budget meant that she planned on paying for my d's reception and she said (snottily,) "no, she's your d not mine."
So I said, "fine, now that I know I can plan a very inexpensive reception." I hung up. I was a bit furious because she does things like this quite often. Like tries to force me into debt by giving me these edicts to not rain and no budget. But meanwhile, she told me that my h and I needed to attend a financial seminar at church so we could manage our budget better....."
At first I asked her to be a part of the planning luncheon but after her - she's your daughter not mine - comment, I uninvited her.
Well, she called a half hour later and said, "well, I will help out, I just won't foot the whole bill....." How much, mom? She is so vague. Never EVER a concrete ANYTHING. I need to budget. Is your contribution going to be $1000.....$500....$2000?
Anyway....I think she called back not because she felt guilty but because she is afraid I am going to plan a very simple, inexpensive reception and that is not what SHE wants to make herself look good.
She is crazymaking......can someone identify what this behavior is?
Says one thing one day and then contradicts herself another????? Talks out of both sides of her mouth???
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Oh Kelly
I am sorry. I have a prediction. She will end up paying for ALL of it and it will be 'fancy"--befitting her. I could guess at all the previous moves and have my prediction of the future. Let me know,Kelly.
I am sorry that an N ruins everything,Kelly. Love Ami
((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))
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Hello Overcomer:
You did well in that particular round, I think. Of course, one can never "win" with the N. Reminds me of the ex-N. That is how they are, Overcomer, and all you can do is take it in your stride. They NEVER think before they speak, hence the short answer you received. That is par for the course, believe me.
I think Ami is right. Your M will want eventually to pay for the whole thing. However it does seem rather a pity (and I say this not knowing your circumstances) that you have to ask her at all to contribute anything.
All the best and good luck with the planning
Hermes
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She is crazymaking......can someone identify what this behavior is?
Says one thing one day and then contradicts herself another????? Talks out of both sides of her mouth???
I've noticed N's often do anything to be in opposition to others, even if it means contradicting themselves in the process. My father can contradict himself in a matter of a few sentences. The essence of the interaction for them is the opposition, facts and consistency are not a concern.
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She says what serves her purposes at the time-but denies she ever said the first thing. My mantra when she is around is DENY DENY DENY. I do not know if she even grasps my sarcasm. I never said that. Deny deny deny! Damned if you do damned he you don't syndrome!
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It reminds me of Bill Clinton . Sorry for the humor in an exasperating situation with "pulling out hair" proportions. My heart goes out to you, Kelly.Keep talking about it. That will help, I think. Love you, Ami
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Everything about my mom is crazymaking. I am about on the verge of tears? Why? Because this woman is so stupid. One of our former employees is starting a business just like ours and I am sure his goal is to make my mom suffer. Do you think my mom will do what I say and retire? Oh, no, she will continue to do things as she has for 14 years.....we will fail. She is stupid. But the tears are that she will not listen. She will not acknowledge that ANYONE and especially me might be right.
She is a bitch!!! excuse my french!
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Dear Overcomer:
Well, you know that the N is ALWAYS right. I am surprised that you are so surprised. You can expect nothing from such people, except aggravation. Look at how upset you are. Is this good? Can you keep it up?
Wishing you strength.
Hermes
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Oh every once in awhile my frustration rears its ugly head. We try to stay out of each others hair but the wedding has thrown us together. I would just as soon back off and have her plan the reception but because she put it back in my lap after I insulted her by telling her she needs to retire. I just have lived so long where her money trumps everything I can do.
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A very great pity, Overcomer.....
Best to you
Hermes
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She is crazymaking......can someone identify what this behavior is?
Says one thing one day and then contradicts herself another????? Talks out of both sides of her mouth???
Ooh ooh call on me! I can identify it! Even though she contradicts herself and talks out of both sides of her mouth - every single thing she does has one steady thing running through it - You are wrong. Yep. If you have a big reception, or a small one, or go to the financial seminar or don't go - remember her point is - you are wrong or messing up in some way or another. There is no action you can take that will make you right, because she will just change the game. If she is going to contribute make sure to get the money up front. It would be like my dad to pledge money but not come through. He would say I displeased him in some way and so he couldn't give the money after all. Lucy and Charlie and the football. However, I am being too harsh on him in some regards because he did help me pay for 30% of my wedding and did pay for the rehearsal dinner. But damn was I scared he would not come through.
Anyway, keep your eye on the ball as she moves it all around and tries to distract you and fool you - no matter what the contradiction or change of plans - it's all about her keeping the upper hand and she'll say anything. Consistency, negotiations, accuracy, the truth, mutal agreement - that is NOT what is going on here and never will be. Your best bet is if she thinks the reception reflects on her, like your wedding did.
If you say chocolate, she will say vanilla. And if you say vanilla, she will say chocolate. If you say chocolate and vanilla, she will say you eat too much. If you say thanks but no chocolate or vanilla for me, she will say - what's the matter with you, live a little, you cheapskate killjoy puritan. And if you say chocolate and vanilla are your favorite flavors she will say only losers like those flavors and the in-crowd knows that the best people eat (insert flavor you hate most).
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But the tears are that she will not listen.
Overcomer - She does not listen but you do not hear.
She has "said" the same thing over and over and done the same behavior over and over and yet you expect a different outcome. What about this do you not get?
I so wish you could step back and achieve some objectivity. You so want her to change - but she is not able. We do see how manipulative she is and that she sabotages you over and over. But you are looking to her to make the change when in truth the only hope for change is up to you. Unfortunately the change you must make is not the one you want. You want her to be a loving and generous mother. That will never happen and until you can accept the consequences of that reality you will continue to be susceptible to her manipulations and power plays.
At least learn how to use her manipulations to your advantage.
She wants to look good and she intends to destroy or sabotage you on the way. Okay, let her look good but step out of the line of fire. She wants to have a nice reception? Plan one - but get her check up front - before you make the plans. Otherwise she will let you plan and then leave you will some of the bills beyond your means. she cannot help it. It is now a part of her nature. Be wise and don't fall for her ploy. Let her fund the reception or what ever portions she wants to and then give her the credit, loudly and visibly. Why not? It can be palatable only if it is to further you design rather than as a means of her power over you. But she needs to think she is doing this as a power play. Let her think that - and take control.
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Yes yes yes. Although I am part thinking she is ever inimitm be a loving mother. Sometimes I am forced into a corner-I needed clarity on everything she says so I sent her a rather scathing email which I am sure she hated me for. So when I graciously invited her to the lunch but needed clarity on what she was and was not going to do-BAM She is YOUR daughter not mine. Good than watch me plan a very simple INEXPENSIVE reception. Oh I am raging! She is starting to remind me of things! Ugh!
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Gaining Strength, I love your posts. You have a way with words and a really deep understanding of N's BS.
"She wants to look good and she intends to destroy or sabotage you on the way."
Yes! That is always the way! That is the game. No matter what they are calling it today - it is always the same.
"It is now a part of her nature. Be wise and don't fall for her ploy. Let her fund the reception or what ever portions she wants to and then give her the credit, loudly and visibly. Why not? It can be palatable only if it is to further you design rather than as a means of her power over you. But she needs to think she is doing this as a power play. Let her think that - and take control."
Yes! Get ahead of the game - it's always the same! Just because you are playing her and winning does NOT make that wrong. Hey, use your powers for Good.
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G.S. said:
"Overcomer - She does not listen but you do not hear." "I so wish you could step back and achieve some objectivity. You so want her to change - but she is not able. We do see how manipulative she is and that she sabotages you over and over."
I agree with G.S. You are not winning, and you will not win. You cannot, with someone like that.
All it does is make you frustrated, unhappy, knots in your stomach.
All the best
Hermes
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It's a cogent point Hermes. It occurs to me that maybe stepping back and asking 'what is a win?' would help here and any other time we deal with our Ns.
For OC, what would a win be, in this situation? What would a 'win' look like?
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Hello Iphi:
Unfortunately, there is no "win". The N-situation is a no win one. You might as well go out and talk to a rock as try any type of discourse with an N-individual.
And equally unfortunately all one is doing by sticking around the N is to "enable" them by providing supply. All reaction is supply to them. You can drive yourself mad trying to be reasonable.
I am sure Overcomer knows, in her heart of hearts, herself, what the only win situation is, and only she can take that road.
All the best
Hermes
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I think that looking for a negotiation or agreement with an N is a no-win. Looking for something mutual is a no-win.
But I think OC can still have a win, depending on what that win would look like. For example, OC could define a win as having her mom put up X amount of money for the reception and insist on getting the $ up front and only after getting the money her mom may be allowed a limited amount of input and opinions on what the reception should be like. Or, OC could define a win as throwing a loving, enjoyable, fun reception within her own budget and without any contribution from her mom.
Doing what you are going to do for your own reasons - that's a win!
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((((((((Kelly)))))))) What do you and the newlyweds want for this celebration?
Bigger is definitely not always better 8)
I think that as you clarify those hearts' desires, all of the rest will fall into place.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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You are a sweet person Iphi.! LOL
Imagine trying to limit the N to anything, less so input LOL. Sorry, I do not mean to laugh. The N person will no his or her level best to sabotage anything that is going on.
I entirely agree that OC could throw a lovely fun reception without any contribution from the M. Indifference, now that the Ns do hate. That I did discover.
I thought too, in my foolishness, that I could "win" with N-spouse. I tried it all: facing him down, laying it out before him, laying down the law, not laying down the law (all for my own reasons, mind, being that I would have liked to salvage my then home), even raging back at him, even doing my own thing. It was all the same. I did not "win" in that situation. But, I am winning now, and have been winning since the N-situation is well behind me.
I know, I know, there are financial considerations, and I do not like to pry., Maybe OC is constrained by those considerations. I just don't know. Sometimes you have to simply cut your losses.
All the best
Hermes
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Hermes,
I tried being hard, I tried being soft, I tried being angry, I tried being kind............... every word I spoke was a waste of breath. I left, I won.
axa
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OC, she is a controller and she will control as long as she can.
I am so sorry for you. It took me 50 years to accept that my mother would never baby sit for me, nor help me in anyway.
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Well it is her way or the highway. The older she gets the more stubborn and her own sister says she is fighting to keep her edge-she KNOWS she is losing it. I think she would rather flush our business down the toilet rather than allow me to take over and make it successful. I will NEVER be enough for her-NEVER! I PITY HER-I DO BECAUSE SHE IS NOT GOING OUT ON TOP-she will embarrass herself.
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Dear Kelly,
The hardest thing with an N M is learning to love ourselves. We have to undo ALL the conditioning and see our own beauty---a daunting task. I am on the road with you---one slow step at a time. Love Ami
((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))
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I found a network marketing company that is owned by a man I know from my industry. I am the first person in Iowa to do it. I tried Arbonne and was pretty successful but never got to that freedom stage. My goal is to be so successful that I do not have to worry about my moms crazy making antics. I do not need our business for my living. That way I will not care if she stop the business into the ground-it will not affect me. So I am frustrated enough that I will not be stoppable!
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Overcomer - what do you think about what Iphi and Hermes and I have said?
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Kelly,
What about this?
Be sure to plan something like this with a budget firmly in place. Dont EVER approach your mom with a project where you are already panicky about the outcome. (And by the way, Kell, you might sit down and get very still and see why you planned this without a budget. Did you, on some level, purposely sabotage yourself in your conversation with her? Don't laugh--it happens. A lot.)
Then you can go to your mom and say: Mom, I have planned a very simple gathering for D and H. I think it will be lovely and understated and will really touch them. It occurred to me that you might like to do something special and I wondered if you would like to do X. You can do that as big or as little as you like (dancing--the band, lights, etc? Whatever.)
Then leave the outcome to her and practice being relaxed about it.
OR!!!!! Plan what you want to do within your own budget, and tell her thank you so much, but you dont need anything. If she has a chunk of change she wants to spend, ask her to buy something big for the new couple. Whatever she wants. She can even ASK THEM WHAT THEY NEED. Novel thought.
The common denominator in both scenarios, Kell, is that you have already planned carefully what you will do without her help. Then you will be able to enforce a boundary--if you don't have one, you can't enforce it. When you go to your mom, already upset and without funds, you are (on an unconscious level) begging her to dance with you in the same old dance. And, of course, she accepts the invitation. You are both locked into the same roles (you are frazzled and overdrawn, she is powerful and available with cash). If you don't like the dance, you need to stop asking her to join you.
It will mean that you are going to face discomfort on a different level, however, and it may be an enlightening experience for you to face that discomfort head on. There is some level on which you are angry with your mother for her power over you, but you are willing to put up with her powerplays in order to get what you think you need--money for your house or your daughter's events or paying off your bills. The problem is there is a price tag to her money and there always will be. You don't get to decide whether or not she applies the price tag--but you can sure decide to not buy the merchandise.
Smaller house, credit card payment plan, simple wedding reception for D. Those may be harder to swallow than you think. But facing that is where you are going to see some TREMENDOUS growth. I want that for you, in the worst way.
Love,
CB
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I totally relate. I agree that there is nothing I can do to change this woman. The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her. And to answer Izzys question-I have made several false starts to get away from my mom but am sorta stuck because I cannot find a job that pays me like our business. It is frustrating because it is like a trap. I am a bit passive aggressive in that I just do not do much as punishment for her refusing to leave. I have lost my will to fight.
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OC, I just was thinking that your mother will have to retire sooner or later. Maybe just need pacttince. I dont know. My mom opened a little very little store of refreshments and little snaks, gum, ciagrretes, and magazines. It is not big but it keep them alive. I begged my mother to let me in. She did not want to. She opened it with her husband. Her husband has a job in the family and I have to work oustised with strangers all the time. My sister works with them.
So, I was thinking, if she is aloowing you to be there, maybe it is not so bad. I understan that it is frustrating, but I dont know, it is not good to tell a person to leave. The person has to decide, and come fron his her heart and not people to tell you to leave.
Of course, many people will think that she did me a favor but not allowing me. I am in the USA and am free of her, or so I think, because free I will never bee.
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Overcomer says: "It is frustrating because it is like a trap".
Dear Overcomer:
It is a trap. However, no one can tell you to leave, and no one can tell you to stay. Only you can know in your heart of hearts what is worth doing and what isn't.
If life were merely a question of money it would be simple enough.
I will just make one remark: "it is once around the block". We have only one life, (which is flying past at the speed of light L), and the past half hour has already gone......
It has to boil down to what we really want.
We cannot be "free" of past memories, not entirely, but we can keep them in their place, in the past.
Lupita says your mother will have to retire sooner or later. Sure, she will. But how "later". Months, years, maybe a decade? Precious years of your life, merely waiting.
I just don't know, Overcomer. You say you have lost your will to fight. Well, fighting will not solve anything. Nor will changing the way you respond to her. As you have said, no matter how you "respond" to the N, it makes not a whit of difference.
Again, it is your life, and only you can decide. There is one point you mentioned in another post, that your M would fail in the business (I think it was about someone else opening a similar type of business). The Ns generally do fail and tend to drag others down with them. It is also good to remember that.
Take care and all the best
Hermes
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These are all good advise. I did play into the dance didnt I cb? She wants to communicate but whenever I communicate about anything I fall into her trap. That is why I usually choose to NOT talk with her. She gates the fact that I straight arm her but it is not safe to not. Then I do unload my frustrations on her via email because it is a safer form of communication. She always turns on the disapproval so I try to not go there. I think I have pretty much shut her out and for that i good
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Dear Kelly,
Interacting with an NM is like being in a Alice in Wonderland world, where the rules keep changing. Things appear and disapear. When you say that you just SAW " them, the NM says,"No ,you didn't."
It is all illusions and lies.
It is being a world that makes no sense ,and in the end, YOU are at fault for daring to see the truth. It is the proverbial "no win" situation, Kelly.
YOU are fine. YOU have good sense. It is her, Kelly, not you!!!! Love Ami
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My H and I just had a huge fight. My frussation over my mom has spilled over to him. He does not help at all. I do all the laundry and cleaning and taking out the trash and paying bills etc. So my d lost her license for a month so I asked him if he would drop her on the way to work. No was his answer. I alex up as I picked up HIS STUFF AND TOOK OUT THE TRASH !
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YOU are fine. YOU have good sense. It is her, Kelly, not you!!!!
Ami, you are free to share your opinion--so please don't hear me trying to shut that down. But I am rooting for Kelly here--and I really want to emphasize what I believe is true. So PLEASE don't get offended when I disagree with you.
Kelly--it is you. There's no way it is all her. No, you are not fine. This is a deadly dance and until you see your part in it, you are not going to be able to dance to your own song, in your own patch of sunlight.
You can look at it as though she is dangling a hook that you always grab. Or you can look at it as though you are dangling a hook that she always grabs. Both are equally true. The dynamic between you is very, very deep and well-entrenched.
You are having to manage your life entirely on your own. You are dealing with an alcoholic husband that is worse than a kid. You can't train him--heck, you can't even be sure he's listening. Or that he will remember what you've said. He's got a cushy situation here, and it is a huge wound for you to walk around with every day.
Your mom doesnt respect you--probably doesnt respect anyone. Your daughter is autistic and is never going to be able to much adult support for you. This is hard. It's understandable that you feel very, very alone.
Money could buy you some of what would make your life easier. And your mom has money and sometimes, capriciously, she parts with it. Sure, you have to put up with the way she makes you feel--but that's never going to change, right? With or without money. But, if you can get the funding, you can create a few sweet memories--a beautiful home, a wonderful celebrations for your daughter. And in those things, you are going to have a bit of respite from the aloneness that you feel.
I'm not sure you are making a bad choice. I have made it myself. And I think it was the right choice at the time. But, you need to realize that you are keeping yourself locked to her and that you will never, ever get away. And she will never ever be any different than she is now.
It is you, Kelly. If you can own that, you will feel so much more control over your life. If you can look at the situation and admit that you are taking what comfort you can out of her money, then you can decide if you want to continue doing that, or if you want to stop. Your H is another story--but you can look at that situation much the same way.
Much love to you, Kelly,
CB
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Hello O.C.
" He does not help at all". That in itself is a frustration, and I am at a loss to know why your H gets away with all this.
Hermes
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So he says he does not get a say in anything and that I do not listen to him and I tell him because he gets drunk and pants and raves. The responsibility for everything coupled with the extreme frustration is getting to me. Right now I am part happy because I have my new business and part sad because I have dysfunctional people surrounding me!
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OC, I am going to be direct. You said, "The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her. "
You know what you need to do but you don't do it. For months I have read your posts that sound as if you are on the vege of really taking in what people here have learned and applying it to your situation with your mother but week after week you then post your repeated pattern of engaging with her time after time.
You are correct when you say, "The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her. " But now you must change how you respond. Stop saying it and do it.
your friend - really - GS
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Dear O.C.
I have to go with G.S. on this one. You say yourself: " the responsibility for everything coupled with the extreme frustration is getting to me".
Sorry, O.C. But the bad news is that it will get worse.
You have heard the expression "enabling", I am sure. Well, unfortunately, you are enabling these two, both your H and your M.
All the best
Hermes
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Well, well, well. Advise HEARD!! And I know it doesn't seem as if I am getting out of the situation and maybe I am not. But I AM making stides to move along. I have applied for so many jobs I cannot even count them anymore. Several have almost panned out. One did but it was out of the frying pan and into the fire and so I chose to go back. I like what CB said in that maybe I have to bide my time until I can find a way out. Maybe my new venture will be lucrative.....my hopes is that it is. It makes me more passionate about it because I see it as a way out.
As far as the wedding, I decided I am going to set a budget that I can afford and then I am going to say to my mom......what do you want to contribute if anything? I need a figure.......then give it to me and I will spend it as I see fit. Otherwise I can see the mother of the groom and my mom going out of control and I get caught spending more than I can afford.
As far as my H? He told me he would move out and I could fend for myself. I was yelling as he walked out the door, "I already do everything so what difference would it make!!" I also told him that he is drunk all the time so it is no wonder I ignore him. He told me I ignore him and I do. He gets on these drunken rants and I just cannot stand it. He knows I need his part of the income but if I have to wait tables I will to make ends meet. He is such a jerk.
And my mom? Yes, it is a dance. And yes, GS, it probably seems as though all I do is complain and complain and complain but I do not DO anything. Sometimes I think when things quiet down that I can bear. I just do what I need to do and hope that something will happen that will force my mom out of the business. I know the bookkeeper told her, if we keep overspending then you will have to put money into the business every single month!! I also told my mom it is only a matter of time until she is out of money.....
So I HEAR you and I will definitely think and TRY to move forward. Right now I am very motivated with this business. I had quite a bit of success with Arbonne and I was probably number 300 in Iowa - I am the first here!!!
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Dear Kelly,
You have had truly awesome, sound, sensible, wise, life giving, advice.
All of which, I agree with. "Getting out of Traction and into Action" is what works. Continual verbalizing does nothing at all.
Kind nicey nicey words of "It's not you, it's her" and "I'm behind you" only serves to "enable" you to remain, where you are now.
Truth is, things can, and, will, only get worse, until final crunch time, when a crisis of some kind, inevitably unfolds, as it does, in life.
In all honesty, I too have read your posts, and have had the same thoughts, that you are "enabling", both your H and your M.
To the detriment of your own personal health, and emotional health, your own well being.
Only you have the ownership of you, and your decison, regarding ownership of your own thoughts and actions.
If I were to have a problem to share, for insight, and sensible support, then I would hope that the ones who have provided it here, on your thread, right now, would do the same for me. "Telling it as it is."
Nicey nicey 'enabling' pats on the back of victim retention, and, perhaps, even, a patronizing "there there" -- never ever serves to pull someone out of a quagmire in life.
Truth and honesty, straightforward, sensible, with respect, and genuine consideration and care -- gives freedom to the proactive hearer, every time.
Life is for living, a life, in fullness. Emotional health is precious. Money cannot buy Emotional Health.
All of which, shared, from personal life experience.
All the best for you, Kelly.
Love, Leah
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Well you used my favorite word "quagmire" so I guess now I have to listen!!
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Overcomer - It is really not about what you do it is about how you respond. You said it yourself, "The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her. "
Write wrote about marvelous technique to use in difficult, trying emotional confrontations. That is a very good example of how you can change the way you respond to her.
Getting out of the situation you are in is not about changing jobs, it's not about having more money or more control or a different husband it is about "chang[ing] the way [you] respond."
I just do what I need to do and hope that something will happen that will force my mom out of the business.
This is complete victimization. You are not aware of having any power. You are just "hoping" that something will happen. When you change the way you react to your mother you will begin to reclaim your power and you will begin to see what you can do for yourself.
Start with how you handle this reception. Have a plan for how you will react, what you will do based on every possible response your mother might make. You will have a plan. Having a plan and following through is empowering. Doing what you need to do and hoping is victimizing. Yelling and screaming at your husband is disempowering for both of you. You must stop. You must get a plan and then act on it. Do this without depending on the results. Keep your focus on the action not on the results. That will be empowering.
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I agree that in any sick relationship, we both have our side of the dance. I was looking at it from the side of the M, which is sick. When Kelly,or I, or anyone dances WITH the person, we are part of the sickness.
The answer,I guess, is NOT to dance---but to detach.
I had a huge revelation about my H, today. I saw his side of the dance and I broke my part of it, in my mind.He doesn't know and I am not going to tell him,but I saw his side and saw that I will not "play"(dance) ,anymore.
I don't know the specifics yet,but I know that I saw the truth about the relationship and I am free ,inside. The "spell" was broken.
I think that I pulled out from the dance. It had NO fanfare. I just saw it.
After experiencing the worst tragedy possible(in many ways), I am "new" in the sense that I can't hold on to old ideas. They were what killed my son.
I am seeing truth,in a way that I never did before. S/how I got in to a different dimesion with this and I am no longer the same person,in many ways.
I really can't explain it,b/c I don't understand it.
It feels like my head opened from the top,like a cartoon character, and I can "see" differently.
Scott would want me to break the patterns that killed him. Ami
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Well, right now I am an emotional wreck. One of our key employees quit. Another man who used to work for us is starting a business like our own and she is going to work for him. But the reason I ran out of the office crying is because I cannot do it anymore. The thought of sitting in another meeting with my mother and hearing her drone on and on and on about the same things is more than I can bear. AND not to mention that, YES, I have allowed my H to be a complete drunk and then get defensive when I call him on his stuff.
I am hearing what you are all saying and I am beside myself. I am balling right now and I cannot hold it back. I feel trapped and you all tell me to DO something and I am trying but it seems everytime I try to DO something it is like a knee jerk reaction to everybody telling me to do something that it is not rational but reactional.
The thought of starting out a new year doing the same old thing we have been doing for 14 years is more than I can bear. I mean it is making me CRAZY!! I feel like I am being walked to the gas chamber and I am wrongly accused. I feel like there is nothing I can do about this right now!! Yes, I can look up jobs on careerbuilder.com. I can apply and hope beyond hope that they will hire me and not work me into the ground. I can be optimistic about my new business, but realistically it cannot happen for at least six months. And without my H's paycheck I am further screwed.
So what do all you people with great advice suggest I DO?? Do you suggest I tell my mom to go screw herself and my h as well? Do I just drop kick them and run the risk of not having any money??
Give me some ideas here. Stop being a victim. How? If my mom calls me and asks me why I ran out crying my impulse is to say BECAUSE THE THOUGHT OF WORKING WITH YOU FOR ANOTHER YEAR IS MORE THAN I CAN BEAR!! And if my H says, "Do you want a divorce?" Should I say YES, I WANT A DIVORCE......YOU ARE A DRUNK AND YOU DO NOT HELP ONE IOTA AROUND HERE!!
So I set all my boundaries and then I have no job, no money and suddenly I am supposed to be emotionally healthy because of it?
CB said it. She had to bide her time until the timing was right. I AM setting boundaries towards my mom. I confronted her on the "don't rain on their parade and you didn't have a budget for your wedding.." remark. I told her FINE......I will have an inexpensive wedding reception. Isn't that the right thing to do? Why do you guys jump on me when I feel I AM trying to do this. Yes, it IS frustrating because every time I make an escape attempt it does not come to fruition. It is not as if I am complaining and not trying to get out of this.
I have more to think about than just me. My youngest d is autistic. Is it right to sell the house I just bought and move into an apartment? Divorce my H? Uproot everything just to make a point????
My reactions need to be less emotional. I always get to this point where I cannot stand it anymore and then I go off the deep end. I truly want freedom from my mom AND my h. I REALLY want this business to make it so I can walk away from them both!! I do!!!!!
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I am so, so sorry you are hurting Kelly. ((((((((Kelly)))))))))))))))
Love to You, Dear friend, Ami
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Am-why am I crying? My life is so much better than yours right now. I am sorry that you are trying to comfort me when it is you who needs my love and comfort. I appreciate your words of encouragement. I need a little pat on the back even if I am not doing what everyone thinks I should. I agree with them. I would get sick of hearing me complain too.
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Hey OC - I am not sick of hearing you complain - you take your time and give yourself space to make changes on your terms. A lot of times that means NOT doing something crazy, but just resolving to find new ways to get out of being stuck and taking and then working on finding those new ways. Hey, most people here have spent decades stuck to their Ns and have no room to talk about saying JUMP NOW!
Edit: and I don't think people really mean to do anything instantly but just really identify with your situation and want to download what they have learned so you don't have to suffer a second more!
I mean realistically, if I had "jumped" without looking before I leaped in order to get away from my N as badly as I wanted to, then I would have had to come crawling back, defeated. And that is just the kind of thing he would loooooove. But eventual I did jump and it has worked alright - nothing perfect - still would rather have NOT crazy people in my family - lol! But I am less crazy now for the changes I eventually made.
You know I have always admired you in your posts because you have show tremendous power, like you have a rocket engine under the hood of your car. Okay so maybe you have not effectively harnessed that power to work for you, but it's there and it comes across. I guess with all that power, it can blow up on you if you don't respect it, but it's all learning. Like for example, you confront your Nmom all the time and take her down to brass tacks. Yeah, she doesn't change and essentially it gets you nowhere and isn't really working. But you know it takes some serious power to be able to do that, even if it isn't working. Just because it isn't working does not invalidate that you have this power to 'bring it!'
Got to go visit my baby-boo at daycare. hang in there with yourself - you are an awesome lady with lots of productive life to live.
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Dear Kelly,
NOOOO!
One of our big problems is comparing ourselves to others. I had all the same problems that you did ,Kelly, and I still do. Your issues are valid, whether of not I ,or anyone ,else has a tragedy. Get it, Girl(LOL)!
You are trying to claim who you are. That is how I see your ongoing angst with your M. Who is Kelly? Whay does she want, believe, think? How does she feel about herself APART from how her M sees her.
These are MY issues ,too, and still are.
My son died b/c of the type of issues you are addressing----family pain.
It is important. Your journey and resolution is important---crucial, Kelly. Love Ami
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Dear Overcomer:
I understand how frustrated and even cornered you must feel. And I did not see, honestly, anyone here jumping on you. It is not fair, OC, to say that to people who are only trying to help you, and moreover, trying to help you see a little more clearly.
I think I can say that everyone here feels that for you, and understand your plight. No one is saying you must dash out the door this very evening. Your new business venture may work very well, but... you need not to be an emotional wreck in order to be able to put your heart and soul into this business (or indeed into any business you might decide on). And you do not stand a chance with the millstones around your neck. You do need to get your ducks in a row, and no one would say otherwise. But it is impossible to discuss anything rationally with your M, or with your alcoholic husband. No one here can tell you to file tomorrow for a divorce, or what to do about your mother.
OC, it is not about "making a point". It is about you and your ultimate survival, your future as a person, and indeed even your physical health. These levels of stress are not good for you. You need to be fair to yourself. No one is saying sell the house and move to an apartment. You say you bought the house, so I am assuming it is in your name.
Could I, maybe, make a suggestion? Could you possibly go see an advisor on the practicalities? And also see someone else to counsel you a little.
Here for us, on this group, it is hard because we cannot actually see you, and you cannot see us. Our words can be misconstrued, but we do care.
BTW you can be emotionally healthy without money and without a job. It happens to people all the time. I know, I have been there. Because of the emotional and mental battering you are getting from your M and H, and your situation, your self-confidence is down in the pits. These people work on you to make you like that. Your husband does not have a wife; he has a slave, and he does nothing. And he won't, until he gets a good fright, maybe.
One door closes and another opens. I realise you have an autistic child to think of. It is not easy.
But, only you can take time out to think profoundly, and perhaps it would be well to try to talk these things through with someone there in "real life", and see what way you can turn.
All the very best
Hermes
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Maybe they were not jumping but for the same reasons I get frustrated by some here-they got frustrated with me. I am fairly strong but occasionally the frustration of life gets the best of me. Too much coming at me at once and suddenly I crack. I have so many little details coming at me quickly and I think I am overwhelmed by them all. I really want out. But I need the funds to do it. If I had the means I could leave my work AND leave my H. He is so one dimensional.
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I understand you, Overcomer, believe me I do. You have a child to think of. Leaving yourself out of it, your child needs funds for assistance and education. I can understand that. What age is your son? Could you keep your house, even if you divorced your H? I expect there are things you need to speak of with an expert on a) divorce in your circumstances, and b) your financial future. I might be wrong here, but I am 99.9% that if your H thought you were going to divorce him, he would immediately jump to attention. After all, there are few women out there who would put up with what you do: laundress, cook, housekeeper, worker, minder, the list is long.
All the best
Hermes
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Hi Kelly,
I remember one of Moonlight's posts, and this will be a paraphrase- Freedom and bondage are two sides of the same reality.
Breathe, Kelly......
Cat
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OC, I am going to be direct. You said, "The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her. "
You know what you need to do but you don't do it. For months I have read your posts that sound as if you are on the vege of really taking in what people here have learned and applying it to your situation with your mother but week after week you then post your repeated pattern of engaging with her time after time.
You are correct when you say, "The only thing I can do is change the way I respond to her. " But now you must change how you respond. Stop saying it and do it.
your friend - really - GS
Agreed....it will be frienghtening to take a new action, an exercise in courage which is not the absense of fear but the ability to act despite of fear. I encourage you Kelly too. However, you have a daughter to think about ---take the money and run -- lord knows you deserve it and then the next time take the action.
Lise
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Also, for your reading enjoyment when you get a chance....
http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm (this has been posted on this web board many times but it fits well here with your thread.)
To you, she’ll lie blatantly. She will claim to be unable to remember bad things she has done, even if she did one of them recently and even if it was something very memorable. Of course, if you try to jog her memory by recounting the circumstances “You have a very vivid imagination” or “That was so long ago. Why do you have to dredge up your old grudges?” Your conversations with her are full of casual brush-offs and diversionary lies and she doesn’t respect you enough to bother making it sound good. For example she’ll start with a self-serving lie: “If I don’t take you as a dependent on my taxes I’ll lose three thousand dollars!” You refute her lie with an obvious truth: “No, three thousand dollars is the amount of the dependent exemption. You’ll only lose about eight hundred dollars.” Her response: “Isn’t that what I said?” You are now in a game with only one rule: You can’t win.
http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm
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Thanks all. My H sent me an email that I should refinance the home under my name only. He has used intimidation on me forever and it used to work. I could work another job until my business booms. Thank you all for encouragement. I need it.
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Hi ((((Kelly)))
I've heard that multi-level marketing isn't a great thing to build an income on, their advertising notwithstanding...
I think if you got a stable FT job with benefits, even if it pays half what you get now, you could more easily make a plan.
Getting out will involve more planning, less passion.
I remember being worried when you decided to move closer to your mother's house...I'm sorry I didn't speak up.
I do understand the money thing. It's part of why I got stuck with my mother for a decade. I don't think I could've stood a mother like yours if I also had an alcoholic spouse and autistic child.
Don't give up...keep posting, thinking things through...
love,
Hops
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You are so right, Hops. So right.
Lateral thinking in situations like O.C.'s is vital. Sometimes that journey out of the quagmire involves starting from a different point.
All the best
Hermes
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Well the closeness of my parents is not an issue-now that they have the newlyweds downstairs they have enough going on to keep her away. And I understand what you say with network marketing but I have seen the quick rise before and even if it is short lived I should be able to save a bit. My aunt thinks my mom and I should work opposite days and she told my mom we were as opposite as night and day and that I will never be like her. I told my aunt my mom has tried to mold me into her.
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Well my H came home and tried to continue the fight from this morning. I said I wanted to go to marriage counseling. He said he didnt. I told him he disengages when he gets home at night. He said he is thinking about moving out because he feels disengaged from me. I told him I didnt case and to move out already. So he left.
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And now he is back and using the F word and telling me I am just like my M. I told him I am not afraid of him and he told me he is not afraid of me and then he said something really stupid like did I wait for his mom to die to decide to leave him.
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It sounds truly devastating, and soul-destroying, the kind of exchanges you are having with your H. This is really bad for you, O.C.
Hermes
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OC - I think I have pushed too hard. I didn't see how vulnerable a place you are in right now.
I said, "You know what you need to do but you don't do it." but I didn't mean anything about your work or your husband. What I meant was that you change how you REACT to your mother and your husband. That is the real key for you and for us all.
I so wish I could convey to you the message I am trying to send but somehow you are not able to hear. Learning to change how your react is difficult to do but it is not difficult emotionally. It is emotionally freeing and impowering and that is why I wish it for you. Especially now, especially since you have no support from your husband in trying to Overcome the struggles with your mother and all other obstacles.
Really my heart is with you. I want good for you but I am afraid that what I have been saying here sounds to you like I am "telling" you what to do - get a job, leave your husband. But I promise that I am saying neither one of those and I don't think anyone else here is saying those either.
I hear people giving you advice about how to detach from your mother so that you no longer react emotionally to her but that you react rationally and with a cold calcutating plan to further your healing and your personal development. But perhaps has your husband starts the pull the rug out from underneath you the timing is terribly wrong and what you really need is support for where you are not a push to do something different.
The most important thing for you and for each and everyone of us here is to take care of ourselves. Remember - just ignore what is written here if it does not speak to your heart. It is meant well but that does not mean that it is right for you at this time. Listen to your heart about what you need to do and who you need to listen to. But know that even if some of us here are not saying what you want to hear it is not because we do not like you, it is because we aren't connecting well with you right now. I hope to do better for you at another time. - your friend - GS
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I realize that on the stress test where moving, death, a marriage, surgery etc. cause stress. So this reception put me over the edge and now I see that when push comes to shove my H will make things worse not better. I am worried about finances but I would rather skimp than be married to a detached alcoholic man-even if I do need his money! I will find a way. And yes,I think you all pushed me too hard in my fragile state. I am normally pretty strong and have made great strides but now not.
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I will not move-rather I will make a way without him. He makes $1200 Per Paycheck and takes at least $600 In allowance per month. Plus my grocery bill will go down. Water. It will be tight at I am getting my first $200 Check from my business and I have only been in two weeks. I will need to cut coupons
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Dear Kelly,
My understanding is that we were posting in reference to the issue of your mother, and the reaction, thereof.
Certainly, that was the context of my posting.
However, afterward, my heart went out to your young daughter, with a prayer for peace, for her dear heart.
Going No Contact with my NPD Mother, after years of verbalizing, was the best decision; for me, my life, my health, my Emotional health.
I am not "for sale" therefore, my mother cannot buy me. And I am grateful to be out of her will. That kind of money, I do not desire.
Downsizing (exNH) has been the best thing that has happened to me, with subsequent; refocusing on life, with real needs, and not wants.
Personally, I identify with CB's post. With the exception of homeschooling.
All the very best wishes for your new business, Kelly.
Here, we offer and share; our thoughts, personal life experience, and worldview, in words. We share articles, and signpost. All of which, is for the discernment of the recipient(s). To receive, or ignore, after all, that is one's freedom of choice and free will. Kind hearts, with kind intentions, I believe. No wise sages or gurus. Just ordinary folk, in real life, with real life experience(s). That's my understanding.
Sincerely, Leah
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Well this morning he apologised.
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I am sure he did, Overcomer. They always do, until the next time around.
Do beware of "Malignant Optimism" Overcomer. In fact there is an article on the net about it.
All the best
Hermes
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Dear Kelly,
I am so sorry,Kelly. I wish I had "words" to offer,but I don't. I will keep you in my prayers. I am ,always, here for you, however you want to reach me.
You have been a wonderful friend to me and I want to offer any assistance that I can to you. Love Ami
((((((((((Kelly))))))))))))))))
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I am going to google malignant optimism-never heard of it.
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I am going to google malignant optimism-never heard of it.
Hi Kelly,
I had never heard of it either, and googled, only found reference to it on sites that quoted Sam Vaknin's writings and use of the term
The Malignant Optimism of the Abused
By: Dr. Sam Vaknin
First published in my
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder"
Topic Page on Suite 101
Leah
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Guilty as charged. I have the abuse but when it is over I almost forget what happened-kinda like giving birth.
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(((((((((((Kelly)))))))))) Love Ami
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I can definately relate!. I've been tip-toeing around my own wedding planning for years, because each time I bring it up with my parents I feel that my wishes are not heard, or not regarded as important. But I don't want to go through hurting my mother by leaving her out either. Also, she has her strengths, and she would be a big help in many ways. I just haven't seemed to convince her to have the wedding where WE want it to be yet. And I'm terrified that she'll be so disappointed in my looks, and say so in front of guests.
So my finace and I have been engaged 4-ish years now, and we've made no real wedding plans. But something strange happened this week- her dog died. It is a very sad time, but this has opened up the possibility of her agreeing to our preferred wedding location (which is a place where dogs, sadly, can't go). We are even taking a holiday together there in May, so she will hopefully see what a special place it is. Fingers crossed.
Kelly, I find my mother does come around, like yours does, but it just takes so much time. I have learned to be a very patient person, lol!
X bella
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Reading your post Bella I cannot believe there is someone alre who allows their mom to do this. At my wedding I wanted a cash bar outside the hall so if anyone wanted a drink they could buy one. She refused and half the wedding left to go to the downstairs bar. She could not understand that the majority of guests did drink and she foule not impose her will on them all. I just went along for the ride and married a stupid man rather than spoil all HER PLANS.
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My NPD Mother ruined each of her children's weddings, in twisted drama queen style. Right there, at the wedding.
Humiliation and embarrassment, does not seem to cover the feeling. Apparently, she did exactly the same, many years previously, at her youngest brother's wedding.
Leah
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How so Leah? My mom does not ruin the wedding for my D-it was perfect. She is ruining the planning for it-at least to me. And it is not even that-it is the way she makes me FEEL! Maybe it is my problem because like Pavlov's Dog she says something and I always react. Oh I have made great strides but every once in awhile when the stress is up and my mind is overwhelmed she kicks me off the cliff.
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My NPD Mother, is a flown blown, all singing and dancing, NPD person -- the full works. The weddings, and what she did, reminds me of a 'Bette Davis' 'Joan Crawford' film scenario.
However, with regards to you mom, saying something, and you react. That was me, every time. Afterward, I would think to myself, and beat myself up, why oh why, did I react? Intrusiveness, they have the knack of drilling into us, which they did, from childhood. Being caught off guard due to stress is perfectly understandable, annoyingly so.
Leah
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Dear Kelly.
I can really relate to your relationship with your M.I realized that they cast a "spell" over us, like in fairy tales. We are not free to venture beyond the ideas that they set for us. We are stuck.
I saw this ,last night.
We are frozen.
Your situation is very hard b/c you work with her and live near her. Also, now your H is a real problem. I am really, really sorry, Kelly. I am here for you ,if you need me. Love Ami
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Thanks. I truly believe I have come a long way over the years-but, like clock work something happens that tips me over the edge. Now it usually involves work. I can so fully see that if she backs off the business wins. She is totally ineffective as a leader there. But she feels since she has so much money invested in the business she cannot leave. But here is the rub-the longer she stays the more $ she throws in the business the less likely it is successful the less likely she will leave