Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CC on September 03, 2003, 10:41:38 AM
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This question has been coming up for me lately and I am wondering if any of you are in this phase of recovery and can share your ideas.
I have never been one to ponder my purpose because for 35 years I threw myself into busy distractions to avoid pain - much of which was productive and somewhat fullfilling, and some on romantic obsession.
Now that I am content and stable in a marriage, I burned out on my own career two years ago and left work to help my husband with our business. Shortly afterward I went through a brief depression and it was after going into counseling for this that I discovered the NPD origin of my family.
Now that I have spent time learning and healing, I'm finding a lack of purpose. It's almost like, okay, what do I do now? I have had to fight chaos so long, and now I've decided not to expend energy on that. So, I am left with the SELF. WHO IS THAT?
For a while I started my own business, based on a passion of mine - cooking. About halfway into it, I lost my enthusiasm and began blowing it off, not marketing, etc. I still have the website, but it has been dormant for months because I have completely lost interest in pursuing it.
I spend half of my day doing the clerical/admin stuff for my H's business, which I enjoy. The other half I busy myself with whatever projects come along - landscaping/gardening, working on the house, etc. and I am always productive. I spend at least an hour cooking a fabulous meal every night, and my husband and I really are into the whole cuisine thing. Most women would be envious of my easy going lifestyle. But..... I feel restless.
I don't have any children (a stepdaughter that doesn't live with us), and until now the N in me didn't think I wanted any - I saw it as a burden - and I think I probably knew that in my previous frame of mind I wouldn't be capable of loving the child because of that. But I am healthier now and am beginning to look at the positives - and feel confident that I will be able to truly love a child. So recently I decided that I will have one so I am preparing for that. I worry though, that part of my decision is because I have not discovered any other purpose. I question that maybe I am doing it to provide another distraction. I don't want to have a baby for the wrong reasons.
Have you ever felt like this? How do we begin to find ourselves? We spend our whole lives as children of Ns and now we have to discover the self that was denied. Where does one start? I would prefer to figure this out before I become distracted for another 20 years raising a child, only to look up in horror later that I have passed on another generation of N.
My therapist has mentioned several times that if I begin involving myself again more socially that the answers will begin to come to me. But isn't that just a temporary distraction? I am lacking focus. I focus on whether or not I am going to paint the front hallway today, or plant some shrubs in the front yard instead. I enjoy doing the paperwork for our business, but it only takes up half the day. Getting a part time job - seems ridiculous to me. I won't make any money or get any significant satisfaction out of that - after being a junior exec for over 10 years. Or would I? Besides there is plenty of business around the house to do.
What do you guys do? Am I just bored? I don't feel bored, just UNFOCUSED and lacking inspiration. You will probably laugh at me, but the headbanger 80's song from Guns N Roses just popped into my head - "Where do we go, where do we go, where do we go now..." :lol:
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The first thing that comes to my mind is that socializing isn't a distraction :) While it does get your mind on other things, that's good - rather than, say, looking at yourself in a mirror all the time, you're faced with others looking at you, and vice versa. You're on equal ground with others, in a vibrant situation, one that no one really knows where it will go. And that's a great way to discover new things about yourself, not to mention others too.
Much of the really valuable stuff I know about my Self, I've learned either from others or from observing myself around others. Rather than judging yourself on your thoughts, which you can do any time, being around others puts you into a position where you have to be spontaneous, and so behave on an almost instinctive, unconscious level - actions.
Finding out who I really am is something I've been dealing with a lot in the last few years, after I left home. My parents saw (still see) me as vindictive, arrogant, wild and rebellious - my friends and teachers have always told me I'm quiet, gentle, caring and have a tendency to not ask questions that they can see I have. (I don't know how they see it, but my husband says that too: "it's obvious" when I have a question about something. Odd, isn't it?)
Once I got away from my parents, then, I was at first faced with this dichotomous view of myself imposed by others. Or so I thought, because in watching myself, and others (how you see others is important!), I noticed that what I felt, gut-level, about myself was much closer to what friends had always told me, and never as extreme as the projections my parents shoved onto me. I also focused on childhood experiences where I had fun and was with friends and supportive teachers - what did I enjoy as a child? We are different as children, but much of our basic makeup stays the same throughout life.
edit: I left out a big one: what did my parents unreasonably forbid me to do as a child that I really wanted to do? In my case it mostly had to do with types of music, movies and television shows, so I've been testing all of them out. It turns out that I really like most of what was forbidden! A few things aren't very interesting, but for the rest, wow. I'm torn between feeling like I missed out as a kid and being happy that I've found out these things now. (end edit)
The surprise came very recently. Just this year I've been noticing what is, in fact, a lifelong truth about myself: I may be quiet, reserved, and not like to step on people's toes, but I'm also very intense. Now, people have always told me this, but I never believed them because I always felt like I was living in a sponge, protecting myself from bumps and bruises. That may be true, but when I look at what I've been through, and things I've chosen to do in my life, I'm amazed at my courage :? it sounds weird to say it about yourself, I know... but I think it's something that all children of N-parents share. We had to be very strong to live with them, and very courageous to face them and ourselves in order to try to heal. We're all strong and courageous in different ways - I think it's important for us to find out in just what way, and then hold onto that as something to be proud of (as humbly as possible :) ).
I work from home too, and like you am a cooking buff :) That was another surprise about myself! My mother had always told me I was a failure as a cook - always ruining dishes. But as soon as I got away from her - it turns out I'm a pretty good cook!! *hurray* Anyway - I went through a period last year where I was aimless, like you seem to feel, wondering what the value of my life was. Then I thought, well, what do I value others for? I don't value anyone for their career, I value them for who they are. Sometimes what they do for work is interesting and says something about who they are, but that's only part of them. My mother-in-law is the quintessence of a woman who knows how to do everything, it seems, and yet she only had a paying job for two years in her twenties. She's an incredible woman.
So I pushed myself to do what I enjoy, and do it just because I enjoy it. In my free time I sew, cook, play with our cat, read books, design websites, write lengthy posts on forums... :D ... and use Internet to learn about things that interest me (mostly foreign languages). You gradually learn what you enjoy and what you don't, even if you start out tentatively, and that in turn teaches you more about who you are. Monetarily speaking, what I enjoy doesn't get me anywhere, but as a person I feel whole and content.
That is, until for some reason, my Self tells me "you need to work on this thing with your parents a little more, we've got more healing to do!" :o
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:)
Thought 1 : I am always productive
- so STOP! :wink: Busy 'doing' means less time to think or feel or be. Less space for the essence of you to filter up to the top.
Thought 2 : Do you want a child or a baby or a family? One or lots? Is it a biological imperative or a cultural response? The answers may give you some clues. But there'll be no room for 'you' once the babies arrive - or 'you' as a couple. Do you want to give all that up so soon???
Thought 3 : I don't think you will create another generation of N, CC - BUT I've become aware that we have to deal with the N of our parents in our children. Babies and children and adolescents are narcissistic by nature (only 'I' exist) and it's difficult not to be motivated to make the changes in them that we actually want(ed) to make in our parents (particularly as we now have the 'power' to do so).
There's also the issue of finding the physical and emotional strength, after days, weeks, months of sleepless nights, NOT to find buttons being pressed that were created by our own parenting. Sleep deprivation is used as torture to break people - knowing that, I don't quite know why our culture doesn't support parents more!
Thought 4 : involving myself again more socially
. If you're avoiding it, you probably need it! :)
Thought 5 : Part-time is brilliant - it allows you balance in your life. The new way to work is to create a portfolio of exciting part-time opportunities : voluntary, paid, selling product, consultancy, learning, teaching others... Do it for a reason 'beyond' the work or the pay. It's a means to an end. Even if it's just in order to pay someone else to stay in and do the housework! One step will lead to amazing new possibilities (believe me, it will) - and THAT's scary!!!) :-)
R
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I love the way you put those quotes in the boxes. Can you direct me on doing that?
Regarding the topic, good for you CC to have built such a productive life! I had a very difficult time finding those kinds of answers. I don't believe that it's a process you can rush.
All the work and "things" I did in my life I did by default. This is what I was told to do.. or what was expected and I didn't have enough sense of self or agency or confidence to even consider anything else. So when it came time to change I struggled too.
Questions like "What did you always want to do Anna" or "What's your passion?" left me speechless once again because I never could afford the energy or risk of actually daring to want something or to BE something other than the crutch. The only thing I EVER wanted to be was ***FREE***. Free to be.....
To start finding some answers, I went to alot of therapy. I studied the Bible. I did art therapy. I learned to be expansive. I also grieved and grieved... I spent alot of time with myself -- allowing myself to be quiet and contemplative so that I could hear those little voices inside me. I worked on an intuition journal -- very helpful and astoundingly empowering. One of the most important pieces for me was to understand that I DID have a passion -- I could identify it because when I did this activity, time flew. It was effortless and enjoyable and hours would fly by because I was completely absorbed. This helped me get focused.
So yes, I've been there! I did many things and I'm still in the process of narrowing things down. The difference is now I don't feel as overwhelmed. Oh, and don't forget to have FUN! We deserve to have fun.
CC, I think that we're always where we're supposed to be at any given point in our lives. I believe that there is always something to be learned or gained. I have never considered any of my life to be 'wasted' because I know that I've gained something invaluable from each step.
Give yourself credit for all you've done so far, and allow yourself to just BE. It will all come in time.
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Hi CC,
What's cookin? :D
Yes i very much relate to searching for a self. I heard the "what did you like as a child" questions, read lots of books etc. Problem was as a child I wasn't allowed ANY hobbies or play time and what i did sneak in play I didn't give my FULL emotional attention to it, i didn't immerse fully into it because there was always crisis and I was always frightened. And, I was more often than not isolated from other children also. “Do what you feel” meant nothing to me, I didn't feel consistently. Anyway, I had very little to work with. I am much improved now I understand who i am. Now, I still have a long way to go to support who i have found myself to be and create an environment in which i can continue doing so. This board is a start.
One thing that I noticed is when you asked - So, I am left with the SELF. WHO IS THAT? That sounds to me like an objective perspective as if you might recognize YOU from afar. "Who is THAT over there?" Would you know her if you saw her? Who do you feel like? Even when it comes to loosing interest. When did you loose interest exactly? How did you feel doing the business, each part of it? Did you loose interest all at once or did it start with one aspect of the business? Did you expect yourself to do it all? Did you like marketing or just the cooking? Could you hire someone to work for you to do the marketing? Getting intimate with oneself is something that from my experience neither narcissists nor their mate (that's been my role) do. I have been too impatient, too scared to let myself feel who i am. Sometimes i've wanted a definite answer - THIS is who i am and that identity will dictate all my choices, make life easier. I did that when i was younger. I wanted a picture to step into. I am being now rather than looking for something or someone to be.
I find that now that when I work on getting to know myself my husband, j gets jealous or makes comments that are subtly demeaning. Sometimes I don't know for sure if he means it that way - am i paranoid? Whether he is being punishing or envious or not, shat I know for sure i don't get support from him for my efforts and worse is I get distractions galore. He will say "oh good you are doing that" and then proceed to create a disruptive environment if the little barbs and hints don't work first. Sadly, he needs to get to know himself and his jealousy is therefore understandable AND I am not the culprit in creating his distance from himself. Anyway, I appreciate the support on this site for getting to know our selves. At home, I feel that even as i make changes inside, in me, i am also struggling with the very environment i am in, the environment/relationship in which i was able to ignore my interests and the feelings, the passions, that fuel my interests for so long.
I intend to make a sort of plan of self-discovery so i can have structure. I so easily spend time on supporting j.'s career, managing the fall out from his latest disruptive/even abusive act, or busy work. That is how i spent so much time here with him, afterall. That is how i avoid the feelings i get when i set out to focus on myself. So I need structure to maintain self-discovery amid the chaos and distractions here. I will set goals and tasks for MYSELF. The dishes can wait. And, i intend to create a plan so foolproof that j can burn down the house to focus me back on him and test my "loyalty" still there will be doable activities i will maintain - I'll go do sit up on the lawn while the embers smolder! There must be a way. Most importantly i will be feeling as i go. Noticing me without judgment. Notice, "I am losing interest, hmmmmm, interesting." "what is it i felt before i lost interest?" "what was i feeling when i focused on j. AGAIN instead of looking into landscape design classes?" What fear did i have just before I decided to abandon myself?
Off to go make a plan,
best to you, cc
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I intend to create a plan so fullproof that j can burn down the house to focus me back on him and test my "loyalty" still there will be doable activities i will maintian - I'll go do sit up on the lawn while the embers smolder!
Echo - I love that. With that kind of determination and awareness, you'll surely succeed! Way to go!
Hi Anna - you just cut and paste what you want to highlight then (still highlighted) click on the 'quote' button up there above the message body (you'll find it next to the bold, italics and underline buttons). :)
R
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I got a book this week called Writing the Mind Alive. It describes what I think is a perfect exercise for people who grew up with an N parent. Its a sort of journaling exercise that the book describes. Even if you don't care about being a better writer, I urge you to get the book and start the practice as a way of locating and appreciating your self.
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Thank you friends, for your inspiring responses. You have given me some great ideas. I am glad I am not alone in restlessness.
Echo, interestingly, my therapist asked me "what did you dream about as a child" and "what did you like as a child" also. This was equally difficult for me to answer because as a child I was not allowed to explore my dreams. My activities were fullfillment of my parents (mother's) dreams. Classical piano, ballet, "play in the back yard with dirt and entertain yourself" instead of sleepover at a friends house and play barbies (see my post about Barbie in 'absence, distancing and withheld love'. I was not allowed to watch the Brady Bunch, or other "normal" childhood stuff - they were "Mindless". Only public television and a few other rare treats (my mother would circle educational programs I would be allowed to watch on the TV guide).
As I go back through my childhood desires, it is difficult for me to identify if they were things that I truly wanted , or things that my friends did, and maybe I just wanted the same things so I could feel like a "normal" kid. I was told by my Nmother that to participate in those things I would be "common" like my friends, and didn't I wanted to aspire to greater things? (Grandiosity, entitlement)
As an adult, I seek out friendships with people that my mother considered "common". Good, down to earth people. When my husband isn't home, I watch nickelodeon and catch the shows that I loved but were forbidden - Brady Bunch, Bewitched, and I dream of Jeannie - and I am thinking about getting a piano so I can play "pop" songs on it - these were forbidden, I was only allowed to play classical because my father was a professional musician and "pop" wasn't 'real' music.
I find that many of the activities and interests I have as an adult are a reflection of my mother. In my new found health, I almost feel as though I should reject them. But I truly enjoy some of the things (I think?) and this is what I am going to reflect on.
It was poignient when you asked about why I abandoned my business. I really need to examine that. I can't honestly answer, but I think you are correct in addressing that there is a key clue here if I figure it out. It is a common thing for me to do - through myself into an activity 110% and then ditch it with no interest later. I did this in my professional life for years. Its almost as if I am afraid to complete a project in its entirety. Why? Could it be that this was my false self, when I start to be successful and grandiose, that I want to go back to being "common" and "like everybody else"? an adult form of rebellion, or what I truly desire???
My last employer was a brilliant sales exec and extremely intuitive. When I gave him my notice two years ago, he looked me in the eye, saying "C, you are so talented and have given so much to this office. What are you running from? Whatever it is, it will follow you, until you figure it out.." This haunts me to this day. Whenever I think of this, it brings me to tears. I don't know, but I need to know.
I'm off to get some books at the library. I need to do some more work, and this forum had finally kicked me in the butt to get me out of a plateau I had reached. Thank you for everything.
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I need to do some more work, and this forum had finally kicked me in the butt to get me out of a plateau I had reached.
Congratulations for getting your motivation back. Isn't it a paradox that through pain we grow and heal.... your boss's words sound insightful and he obviously touched a softspot in your heart.
I agree with you CC, this forum has been wonderful for my heart as well. I found support and love and understanding here that could never come from books.
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thank you Anna & Rosencrantz for the "how to" on quotes. i was wondering too.
thank you Rosencrantz for the acknowledgement and for sharing your enthusiasm with me. (now i need to solidify my plan and sustain my determination and awareness - eee gads! :shock: )
CC: congradulations! in your last post i love the way you are reclaiming your experiences. you aren't tossing the baby out with the bath water by just rebelling against everything you grew up with but feeling it out and being it out (weird phrase but that is what i mean) one experience at a time instead. can you send a wav file of your really loud pop music? :wink:
you are so talented, you have so much to give to this office
said the brilliant man.
just because our n - associates (that is my term for friends, parents, spouses etc.) are adept at making the world revolve around them (their imagined self) doesn't mean it is wrong to ask WHAT IS IN IT FOR YOU/ME? Great that you have so much to give! AND that isn't reason alone for doing something. clearly he cares about you, you are talented AND perhaps you were running from something there that you really didn't want. leaving isn't bad and doesn't mean you are running just away. are running towards some place?
I wonder what pain (soft part in your heart that anna noted?) in particular you were feeling? greiving not serving a brilliant man, that man and/or shame for leaving when you are needed? or grieving that you were leaving something you felt good about as you are doing it, in the moment? Did you leave because you felt inadequate? I know I have had a heck of a time learning to feel the specificness of my experiences. I can feel disconnected because i enjoy what i am doing but am frightened of that process or disconnected because i feel i should enjoy what i am doing but i don't really.
you started this “search for self” thread. you gave and you are getting. how does THAT exchange feel? I am certainly appreciative that you did AND i understand you would need to be getting something out of this, some benefit, energy from it to keep giving it even and especially if you are good at giving. Isn’t it is all about win-win instead of win-lose; about balance not right or wrong, give and get not give or get. Yes, i am rereading this to myself as i forget it often and hopefully in the process relearn it at a new level of intricacy, a new relevancy, another facet in the gem.
Signalfire, i am learning that writing is an excellent way to focus. It is like a butterfly net in which i can catch emotions, epiphanies, contradictions, etc. and then examine them, marvel and admire and disect them and then set them and myself free again, at least free-er. (is that a word? :roll: )
Neko, I liked your technique of turning towards your self the empathy/humanistic view you extend to others – when you asked what you value others for and discovered it wasn’t just their job. I feel that what you said about seeing a weakness as a strength relates here too. Having n parents may require a child to pay close attention outward and in fact that can be a vital ingredient for empathy and/or less productive qualities too. It can also be a weakness. You turned your ability to see others into a means of also seeing your self.
And, at the moment my interests don’t get me anywhere monetarily either and that is my latest focus in my search for self-discovery.
By the way, I fully support anyone out there in taking time from work if they can and need to in order to facilitate self-discovery. A little voice in my head reads that when applied to myself and judges "How flaky!" Yet, I don’t know how I would have worked through what I have needed to work through to get to my current level of inspiration about work if not for taking breaks. Breaks like any tool can be used as a means to many ends of course, including hiding too long. Yet, i worked since i was 11, full time when i turned 15. i took an exit exam for high school - i hadn't attended in years anyway and worked illegally and loved the freedom i had as a result of a paycheck. i ultimately put myself through a very rigerous university (one the top in the US) working all the way through until the last summer. (my spelling and writing sometimes reveals my lack of early schooling. I took mostly science classes in college. also, my focus on this site is to spend time communicating content not perfection. :D though if i am too confusing to read please let me know :oops: ) it took a major depression many years later for me to not work for a while in my late 20s. i felt too ashamed to enjoy the time "off". when i worked again it was a 70 hour a week job. i worked out of fear not motivated by desire or passion. anyway, many more years later and i am now looking at and for work from a new perspective, one that i am not intimately familiar with and yet am on the way to being so, namely from win-win, work from which i both derive and expend energy.
To get to know (& feel!) better the experience of self discovery and work, and to exchange and seek support when i loose my awareness and determination (i don't think i will but i know better! what a quote, eh :roll: ) i am going to post a topic to see if there are others in this forum who want to exchange support and updates regarding the quest for & discovery of self in work/employment.
read ya later....
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Thank you Anna, for your kind supportive words. Congrats on your quote boxes! :lol:
Echo, every one of your paragraphs had a lesson to be learned from. This one in particular:
I wonder what pain (soft part in your heart that anna noted?) in particular you were feeling? greiving not serving a brilliant man, that man and/or shame for leaving when you are needed? or grieving that you were leaving something you felt good about as you are doing it, in the moment? Did you leave because you felt inadequate? I know I have had a heck of a time learning to feel the specificness of my experiences. I can feel disconnected because i enjoy what i am doing but am frightened of that process or disconnected because i feel i should enjoy what i am doing but i don't really.
#1 - Yes, I was grieving not serving a brilliant man anymore
#2 - Yes, I felt shame for leaving where I was needed
#3 - Yes, I grieved leaving something that made me feel good - but in a false sense - "need for admiration", an N trait!! Not a passion of mine.
#4 - Yes, I left because I felt inadequate; I was unable to handle the stress of the work (there was too much to do well, and it was either do all things in a mediocre level or one thing well and ignore the rest) That is not who I am!
thank you for putting in print the feelings that I could not sort out. When I was in that last job, I felt like a big shot. I made more money than i ever thought I'd make. I traveled to glamourous places for sales meetings and everywhere I went was greeted with "heard so many great things about you" (need for admiration) And my ego was stroked constantly by "important people" (grandiosity).. while they piled on more responsibility that I really didn't want, nor could I handle. (Ah, C, but you're so GOOD at it, you'll find a way. DELEGATE), they would tell me. They schmoozed me, like any good salesperson would. But I felt admired, and appreciated. it wasn't enough.
The reality? I was overworked, stressed out, hated getting up in the morning, and was annoyed every time my phone would ring because it was interrupting a project I was working on. I would stay late, feeling inadequate that I couldn't get everything done, and have to drag myself away from my desk when a subordinate would want to buy me coffee, overwhelmed that I would have to face it again in the morning. I would come home to a very unhappy newlywed husband, and be crabby myself because I was tired and stressed. And worst of all - I gave up my passion - no time for cooking.
It is apparent after organizing these thoughts in writing that there was no true happiness in that job. Perhaps when I left, it was the first step in realizing that my whole career had been based on a false sense of self. Then when I left the brilliant man, I felt shameful that I was disappointing him.
you started this “search for self” thread. you gave and you are getting. how does THAT exchange feel? I am certainly appreciative that you did AND i understand you would need to be getting something out of this, some benefit, energy from it to keep giving it even and especially if you are good at giving. Isn’t it is all about win-win instead of win-lose; about balance not right or wrong, give and get not give or get.
I cannot begin to tell you the give/get that I feel on this forum (especially lately). I love to give here, and I feel "allowed" to get - though admittedly sometimes I feel guilty about typing "I this and I that" (like right now!) I feel as though I am making it all about me... but I know I should not feel that way here. You are so perceptive in realizing that what we get here is the same relationship and balance that we should have in the rest of the areas of our life.
I think your suggestion to begin a thread on combining the search for the true self with vocation would be well received. I wish you all the best of luck in finding yourselves, and BEING yourselves. Now I'm off to the library to get those books. Thanks again.
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Thanks CC.
I am glad those questions which took me so very long (many books, many tears, many many earlier questions, a lot of living and worse yet half living) to ask myself can be passed on and that you found them helpful. All the "lost" years of struggle contain some gems to be mined after all. Easy to forget sometimes.
I thought i had to do everything alone. In the process i have reinvented a few wheels, many of which had already been "reinvented" and i just was too isolated to know. YEEESH. surprise! coulda saved some time there. Anyway, books are great and I could die of thirst reading all about water. This forum is a step into a visable audible self, being out loud.
I like to garden and am constantly reminded we tend to one another, we live in a social garden, a sort of social ecology. A tiny seed from others, a comment, an insight, a encouragement or constructive criticism has often grown into a big surprising flower in myself. Weeds have been planted too, and sometimes it takes me a long time to tell the difference. :? I am finding the forum, the voices of the forumers ( :shock: is that a word?), to be a transformative experience. My little whispery voice is becoming part of a chorus and there is an exponential feeling of clarity and synergy i am getting from and with you.
I will get my self to that topic post soon! Hope to read ya there.
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Hi CC and everyone,
I am new to the board and am really gratified to find company! I am pretty much a "social loner" and am just figuring out that one reason why is because in my family I was pretty much on my own emotionally. I have been working through a lot of the same stuff everyone here has because my family's issues finally came to full boil two years ago and here I am.
Anyway, what caught my eye about this thread was this from CC:
Its almost as if I am afraid to complete a project in its entirety. Why? Could it be that this was my false self, when I start to be successful and grandiose, that I want to go back to being "common" and "like everybody else"? an adult form of rebellion, or what I truly desire???
This is one of the things I struggle with all the time. The "who do you think you are?" :x voice in my head that keeps me small and invisible. I was known in my career to be an excellent quiet worker. I did the job well. Period. But deep down I wanted to be recognized for it but couldn't toot my horn because I was conditioned not to. My Ndad would tell me I was "willful" or "self-serving" or roll his eyes. When presented with a good report card, my mom would tell me, "yes, we know we don't have to worry about you."
A couple of years ago, I took a risk and accepted a highly visible position within the community. I told myself I was scared but do it anyway. Go for it! I did a good job, people tell me, but I couldn't handle the visibility and ankle-biting that comes with the territory.
Being an approval junkie, it just really got to me. I took the position to get approval--no one else wanted it, ouch!--I did a good job to get approval, and I'll be honest, I wanted a feather in my cap. (Doesn't everyone? I think both Ns and nonNs, humans, want to be special in some way.) At the end of the game I should have known that there would be people competing for visibility that wouldn't want anyone else to be visible, so automatic disapproval was in the offing from our friends, the Ns.
And the timing was wonderful--my family's "stuff" spilling out at the same time made me feel even more insecure. :shock: So now, no one sees me around anymore. I isolated myself to recover. Kind of like a gopher who stuck her head out of her safe hole and ducked back in!
So, CC, I don't know if this speaks to your experience. But seeing that we had one of the same symptoms I thought I would share this. I still rock back and forth between "is it confidence or grandiosity?" I am uncomfortable when I get attention, even though I know I want it. Isn't that strange? Thanks everyone, for your helpful posts. S.[/quote]
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"I am uncomfortable when I get attention, even though I know I want it. Isn't that strange?"
Welcome Seeker!
This part of your message caught my eye. I can relate to your feeling this way. I've often wondered if it's because my Nmom always had to have the attention focused on her. I never realized until I was in counseling some years back, how jealous my Nmom was of me. Who, but a N could be jealous of their child? :shock: :shock:
Cathi
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Anna:
I loved this observation of yours.
"CC, I think that we're always where we're supposed to be at any given point in our lives. I believe that there is always something to be learned or gained. I have never considered any of my life to be 'wasted' because I know that I've gained something invaluable from each step."
Even though we've all endured a great deal of pain in our lives, I believe that everything happens for a reason. We may not understand it at the time, but our life experiences, whether they be good or otherwise, mold us into a work of art with something to contribute that is unique. We can always be proud of that. No one can take our personal experiences away. We are who we are because of them.
Cathi :wink:
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seeker, I can really relate to what you said:
This is one of the things I struggle with all the time. The "who do you think you are?" voice in my head that keeps me small and invisible. I was known in my career to be an excellent quiet worker. I did the job well. Period. But deep down I wanted to be recognized for it but couldn't toot my horn because I was conditioned not to. My Ndad would tell me I was "willful" or "self-serving" or roll his eyes. When presented with a good report card, my mom would tell me, "yes, we know we don't have to worry about you."
The good, quiet worker who wants to be noticed but won't toot her own horn - describes me to a T! :shock: Though I work as a translator, I do my best work as an editor - "perfecting" things for the really tough-to-please clients. Just like you, as a kid I'd bring home great report cards, and all I'd get was "oh, no need for us to worry about you." No praise, no smiles, just indifference. My parents didn't even attend awards ceremonies - "well, that's to be expected from you. You always want to be noticed by everyone. Why don't you try failing a class sometime? It would be good for your character."
My editing, unfortunately, gets me about the same thing, because it's always those persnickety clients who request that extra "perfection" for their translations. The worst is when, in a 50-page document, they point out one - count it, one - typo and complain. Then there are the translators I'm supposed to give feedback to - some are quite open to that, many aren't. It doesn't matter how careful and non-judgemental I am, if I find a clear, major mistake (happens rarely, but it does happen), they'll get on my case for telling them. So I'm caught between clients who'll complain about the most minor of things, and a few translators who refuse to even consider the idea that they might make big mistakes that need corrected. (Just a note: I only care about mistakes when I work. Mistakes outside of that really do not bother me, I make plenty myself!)
The agencies I work for assume that since I'm reserved and busy most of the time, they don't need to tell me "job well done", so I rarely hear it. The compliment is sort of implied, I suppose, since they keep me busy all the time. But like you, I'd so love to hear it :? and yet, whenever I do, I think, "Oh they're just saying that because they want something out of me... are they gonna ask me to work a weekend now?" I've really had to get on my own case a few times and say "just accept the d**ned compliment, for pete's sake!" :)
I've gone off and vented, haven't I? Heh, sorry, always do that!
I too have realized how jealous my Nmom is of me, it's a painful realization. I've also wondered if I'm making it up, too, because of how much my mother and father drilled the "you're a selfish attention-seeker!" criticism into me. If I think my mom's jealous of me, that means there's something to be jealous of, and how dare I think I'm so much better than someone that they be jealous of me, etc. etc. :? And yet it's obvious... my mother hates everything about me that she doesn't have. Even my brother's come to see that, especially when he had a serious girlfriend - he got to experience our mother's jealous wrath firsthand :(
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Hi Neko,
Thanks for sharing your feelings about your mom with us. Its really good that you vented, especially since you said you tend to be the quiet one. I'm sorry you don't get the praise you deserve. For what its worth, I think you are an excellent writer, communicative and grammatically correct! (I didn't see any typos either :lol: ). It is interesting the connection that you made with your job and (an important "behind the scenes" career). Seems almost indicative of how your mom made you feel... succeeding... but quietly as to not draw attention.. And required perfectionism - something we seemed to all inherit from our Nparents.
My mother is also jealous of my successes, I believe, but her method of thwarting it is to make me feel as if I will never be quite as good as her, or never quite good enough. She is an expert in every area, and apparently even in those that I have experience in and she has none! Because she is older and considers herself "wiser", she will undoubtedly relate some experience with another person she knows who I can learn more from -or compare some ridiculously miniscule experience that she had that slightly resembles what the subject is :roll: Just as a couple of examples, my mother never had a career (other than modeling for Penneys catalog when she was 18) and doesn't have a driver's license, but is constantly giving me advice about cars and business administration (my career area).
My resulting behavior growing up was not as polite as yours, I'm afraid - always quickly wounded by criticism and constantly (but discreetly) seeking compliments to make me feel better about myself. This has improved greatly in the last few years with all the realizations of origin and lots of therapy.
Anna and Cathi,
I too agree with the philosophy that we are all EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AT EVERY MOMENT. Thank you for reminding us. We can take some comfort in that, especially during restless times.
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Anna:
I loved this observation of yours.
Thanks. I try very hard to keep a positive outlook without diminishing my voice. I used to believe that I had to be grateful for every crumb. Some days I still walk a fine line especially when I'm feeling like that little girl.
Again, thanks for listening and acknowledging --
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Hello CC,
Concerning your thoughts on why you abandon your projects and can never really finish things up... I was thinking about that today, and I was lead to the idea of a self-defeating purpose set into us by our parents (or spouse). We are brainwashed into believing that whatever enterprise we set up, whatever project we cherish for ourselves cannot come to fruition. We are failures and we should act accordingly. Also, and this is still screwed up in my mind, but what the hell : We self destruct or destroy what we do because then no one can touch us. "I screwed up? I failed? So what! I didn't want this anyway..." There's some really twisted logic at work here.
There are two parts to this faulty logic (in my opinion) :
1. We (I) feel we (I) don't deserve success, we (I) don't deserve accomplishment (brainwashing by our parents).
2. Screwing things up ourselves, self-destructing in other words, prevents us from taking the full responsibility of our engagements. Sure I screwed up, but no one can touch me. I put myself down faster than anyone else can do it. It's an inverted "wishful thinking" formula.
What I am writing about right now is only intuitive. I am just starting on this road to self-knowledge and pattern recognition. Anyway, hope it helps, and in any case, I already know that what I am writing sucks, so don't bother criticizing... :P
nihil
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Hi There, just checking in to see the latest responses on this thread. Welcome nihil, I believe you to be a newcomer. I think your intuition is correct about the two areas of faulty logic. The problem is, they are subconscious 'reactions'. As indicated in the book I am currently reading - which by the way I recommend highly - "If You Had Controlling Parents" - the voice inside saying those 'you will fail' things is referred to as the internalized parents. We can disengage physically from our Nparents, but to ignore the internalized parents is an entirely different task. I have yet to read the part of this book that tells you how - I hope it will shed some light on changing!
I don't know about you all, but even after a couple of years of hard work and healing I still struggle with understanding what I am really feeling at the moment - if the feelings are MINE or those that my parents instilled in me. Sometimes I feel as if I am outside of my own body - watching myself act instead of BEING and FEELING.
An example is coming up right now. My husband and I are talking about having a halloween costume party. Every time I have a party, I obsess about everything from the house being completely decorated to serving a ridiculous spread of gourmet food. Subconsciously (or now, more consciously :oops: ) I have always needed to have people leave with the feeling that I can throw a party like no one else-competitive that my house has to be the "nicest". I know on some level I'm seeking admiration and validation (everyone always raves about the food and decorating, and for a moment there is the "yes, CC you ARE a good girl" that my inner child seeks - the approval junkie as the seeker mentioned).
Friends offer to bring things, but I tend to decline because the Nperfectionist in me thinks I can do it better (sorry :oops: ) And usually, the entertainment we provide is so exhausting that I don't enjoy myself because I am too worried about how everything is presented - then at the end of the night when everyone is ready to leave I start drinking to relax and want everyone to stay longer :roll:
But some of it I really enjoy (I think??) I am passionate about food, and really would like to share this passion with friends - and I am forcing myself to be a little more social per my therapist's recommendation. I want to be more genuine with my friends. I know on a cognitive level I don't need to impress them (they're already impressed - I want them to see more of the real me, whatever that is!). But Separating childhood needs from what my true current feelings are -from what truly makes me happy - no success.. I really don't know how to do this.
I have often visualized myself throwing one dinner party a month, with just a few couples and a different theme (Asian, Hawaiian, French, etc.) talking about it for over two years but I keep putting it off because the idea overwhelms me.. I can't do anything halfway so I feel compelled to be extravagant and it seems like too much work :lol:
I don't have any special method for dealing with this halloween party situation, but this time I have awareness that I have not have for the precedents. I thought perhaps I would write down what I would normally do for a party like this, and then try to cross off half of what's on the list and go with that. I will only make things I can make a day ahead, and serve at room temp. Don't know if it will work, but I'm willing to give it a go.
Echo, I loved your garden reference. I too, enjoy the garden. I feel as if I am a healthy rosebush that has thorns and leaves but just can't seem to come to bloom. I feel lost, inside myself.. where am I? I know you have felt this way too.
Signalfire, I looked for that book "writing the mind alive" at the library, there was no listing. Would you tell me the author's name so I can look on Amazon or something? Would really appreciate it..
Kind of getting chit-chatty so I'd better sign off, love and peace to all of you. Thanks for your support as always.
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That was me CC above, I don't understand thought I was logged in??
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Hello again CC,
Concerning that Halloween party comment : I can totally relate to that. I have often organized "discussion meetings" at my place where I would invite friends and aquaintances over to have discussions on various philosophical, psychological or sociological issues. Every time I felt stuck up and was always wondering if people were having a good time. I always ended up feeling dissatisfied if anyone left with less than a radiant expression of total bliss on their face.
I am extremely empathic, the sight or mention of pain raises my blood pressure and I start to choke, almost literally. Putting everyone's comfort before mine has always been my way of acting. Therefore I was the perfect N-target. Starting from my parents, my first real close friend, a business associate, an 11 year marriage then a one year fling with a psychopathic narcissist (which broke up my marriage, my family, and almost killed me)... There's a pattern there for me to understand.
I have now cut off any toxic relationships left in my life (in fact, almost all my relationships - friends, workplace aquaintances, and now unfortunately my parents), and have installed a heavy-duty N-detector in my brain. But this isolation is painful and I find myself to be grappling with my own deficiencies and failures. I feel that I shouldn't expose anyone to who I am until I feel confident enought that I can establish relationships on equal terms, with a dose of healthy distance between others and myself. I have to relearn who I really am, and control my emotions and compulsiveness.
The idea of redeveloping your identity through your professional endeavors sounds good to me. But I always thought that having one's sense of self rely on one's professional profile is quite limited. Now I am not suggesting that that is what you are doing. In fact, I quite understand your need to redefine yourself in that manner without the "damaged goods" label stuck on you and moving away from pathologizing every aspect of your life.
Professional success is important. It validates us and gives us means to accomplish ourselves materially (which is not evil in itself) but I think that it is a facet of a more complex self. I have to balance my identity with who I think I am, who I think others think I am, my parental responsibilities, my social duties, my artistic inclinations and my search for meaning. All this while trying to let the different voices in my head hold a healthy dialog. Fear, strength, detachment, experience, subconsious and inexplainable entities are all vying for attention from my consciousness and are fighting to grapple my will. What I am trying to do now is to let those voices express themselves freely, let them vent and then let the other voices express themselves in a balanced peaceful inner environment. I try not to get carried away by one of those voices. I am vying for completeness.
I think that this is my life's struggle : balance. Morbid imagination vs love of life, pessimism vs eternal hope, self-criticism vs loving who I am. External influence has always played an excessive role in this quest so I am trying to build a protective area in my head where I can be clear from outside influences and where I can take time to decide what's in my best interest, according to my fundamental values, my lifelong engagements (ie. : my daughters) and what my soul tells me is right. I believe there is deeper meaning to life than this whole masquerade which we label "reality" and the experiences I have had with narcissists and psychopaths will help me get there.
I know this sounds like grandiosity, vanity and what not. Thing is though, I believe that life is much more than what we are led to believe and that finding out it's hidden meaning is fundamental to my happiness. By the way, I am an atheist and am also very wary of religions, new age philosophies and pre-packaged spirituality. There must be a meaning to all of this... Maybe this is just another mind trap and I'm setting myself up again... Argh... there's just no certainty in me anymore... Well I guess that's a certainty...
Anyway... thinking out loud...
I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to express my thoughts. With respect,
nihil
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Nihil said
I have to relearn who I really am, and control my emotions and compulsiveness
When you figure it out, will you please clue me in?? :lol:
This is my biggest problem too - and particularly with my Nmom. Most of what gets me into trouble with her is my constantly giving her more information than I should (perhaps in an attempt for closeness or acceptance) and then it is used as ammo against me at a later date.
This is hard for people who are intuitively empathetic. And many of us, children of Ns, are just that way. We are capable of intimacy, our Nparents were/are not. We want to share everything with everyone - But correct me if I'm wrong, some of it is an unconscious attempt for admiration and love that we did not receive. So we come full circle, don't we..
I look forward to hearing about your progress in this specific area. I am just now going to start practicing restraint (not telling my mom financial, emotional or other details about myself) when I see her this Friday. I cannot completely cutoff my relationship with this elderly woman, nor do I necessarily want to . But I must learn how to disengage more emotionally - especially since I see her once a week. The irony is, even SHE says I tell everyone everything about me, and nothing is sacred.
I am conflicted about this though, because if we are consciously restraining my emotions and speech - isn't this a form of voicelessness? On the other hand, we are protecting ourselves from further manipulation and retaliation. We are empowered by not reacting. It is so confusing..
You are not at all being grandiose or vain in your discussion of the "bigger picture". I think you articulate beautifully something that many people don't take time to ponder - or think but don't speak of because of their religiously affiliated guilt.. Anyway, we could have a discussion on a philisophical level, but that's for another message board! :wink:
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Hello CC,
We seem to be going through the same struggles simultaneously. There's not much I can give you in terms of advice right now. I am in a state of confusion, pain, fear, but I am also going through some moments of deep realization of what's really going on inside and outside of myself. I feel that I have reached a deeper level of understanding - this is a process which will continue for my whole life, I know this now.
Concerning my parents, I face the same dilemna. They were not very cruel, mostly absent and indifferent to my identity. They had (and still have) very poignant issues to deal with. But now I realize that they have their own path to trod. There's not much I can do for them except than to deal fairly with them and show them love. I am not their problem. So I try to do what your trying, I say little, listen to them and keep my problems for myself. I see them once a week also (they are the grandparents of my daughters and they treat them fairly well).
I think I am at a stage where I have to rediscover self, set up boundaries and learn to work on who I am alone. I am sort of "toning down" outside reality right now. I avoid humans, I read alot, I think, I write and I work to solve issues. I am considering therapy but I don't know of what kind and who with. It might be a valuable help, not sure about it yet though.
What helps me right now the most is isolation and creativity. I compose music, I perform, I write poetry, I work hard, and I try to take really good care of my daughters (going out, being attentionate, doing homework, being patient, cooking good meals, etc). I feel that I have alot of time to catch up with them (since I was so absent myself before that - absent to them, but more tragically absent to myself).
Anyway, thinking out loud again.
Here's a link to a text which might help you (found it today), it's about building a spiritual immunity system and building behaviour to help you face the psychospiritual chaos brought about by this mad reality and it's dangerous inhabitants (narcissists, psychopaths and such).
http://www.spiritreleasement.org/intro/protection.html
Here's one about breaking up with a narcissist :
http://www.jungcircle.com/stew.htm
I hope my words help (and the texts), I know yours do. Take care,
nihil