Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Renatha on January 26, 2008, 02:56:59 PM

Title: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Renatha on January 26, 2008, 02:56:59 PM
My son is 29 and has not lived with me for 11 years when at that time I had to ask him to leave as I believed his marihuana use had resulted in personality change where he was being verbally abusive to me and I did not want that behaviour modelled to his brother, 5 years younger. Curiously enough I remember at the time reading a guide on recognising and responding to the different personality disorder tendencies in adolescent children. I was in my own journey to understand childhood issues and had identified NPD as a way to describe behaviour and attitudues of my mother and sister, ex-husband and father of my 3 sons to whom I was married for 18 years. I could see the similarity in my son's sense of entitlement and inability to have a logical and productive discussion around issues creating familly conflict.
 
In looking at your list of DO NOT's when I was married, (18 years ago) I DID them all! And when my son came to live with me temporarily last April, for financial reasons until he gets married in March this year, I ended up doing the same as any attempt on my part to have discussions to prevent any misunderstandings were met with the argument that he is an adult, not 18 any more.
 
It was on the advice from a DV helpline when my son had become verbally abusive and I felt unsafe to try to talk to him that I gave him the option for us to seek help together or leave. He took that as a rejection and has left. There has been no further contact, and given the precedent of his father, who seems to hate me more as time goes by and with whom I have not had any contact for many years, I am feeling very sad that I may have lost my relationship with my son completely, and have in ignorance pushed him further into his view of blame.
 
Somehow I sensed he wanted me to be a safe parent, and in my own damaged reaction which continue in close relationships (it is not like this for me in work and social situations) I was not able to be that. In my marriage, in reflection, we were both looking for good and safe parenting, but neither able to give it. Seeing the effect on my sons, in particular my middle son, I wish I had been at a place to have not given up and left the marriage. But there it is, can't turn back time.
 
However, I wonder if there is any hope for reconcilliation with my son? I do believe we have a solid positive attachment as a foundation and the relationship was continuously maintained in what I thought was a positive one in the years between when he was 18 to 28 and not living with me.
 
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Certain Hope on January 26, 2008, 09:16:35 PM
Dear Renatha,

Welcome.

I, too, am wondering what you mean by being a "safe parent"...

from what I have read here, you did not reject your son... you rejected his drug abuse in your home, as is entirely right and proper.

And yes, I believe there is hope.

I'd add that I think plenty of immature 20-somethings (and older!) behave in very narcissistic ways without being npd.

Hope you'll continue to post and receive the support you need here.

Carolyn
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Bella_French on January 26, 2008, 09:51:00 PM
Dear Renatha,

I feel for you, as its exactly what my mother is going through with my younger brother right now. He has always been a bad person in various ways, but my mother chose to love him unconditionally and she has always been permissive no matter how abusive he became.  His abuse of her verbally and financially has escalated over time, until last year, in his mid-thirties, my mother had to finally say `no' to one of his outrageous financial demands. She didn't want to, but the money just wasn't there. After that, he formally disowned her, and it is a great source of confusion and pain for her. Not to mention totally unfair!

Do you think perhaps what triggered your son was buried shame? And if so, if you'd allowed the abuse to continue over time, that his shame would have just compounded? I suspect thats the case in my brothers situation.  I think his need for estrangment is proportion to his shame, and that if he'd been disciplined younger the shame would not got this bad. I know, 'm just speculating. But what do you think Renatha?

X bella

Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Lupita on January 26, 2008, 10:53:26 PM
What I would do, I would go and find him, ask him to come back home, tell him how much I love him and tell him that I want to help him. I would go and look for him. I would reach out for him. I would tell him that he is welcome in my house.
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Overcomer on January 27, 2008, 08:29:46 AM
Ever seen the movie Marvin's Room?  Diane Keaton,  Meryl Streep,  Leo DiCaprio.  Diane wins Leo over with un conditional love.  She is just nice.  He does something mean and she just smiles.  They laugh together.  I learned a lot when I watched that movie.  When we fall into those roles that we play and have played our whole life-the same outcome happens.  Take it from one who falls into the same pattern just when I think I have beaten the "System."
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Kimberli63 on January 30, 2008, 03:55:10 AM
Renatha, I am in a different situation but similar position ie, I am at the stage where I want to throw my son out because of his meddling in drugs. Here is my story which I put on the board earlier this year. However, the situation has esculated to an extent that I have to be careful. My son and I have nobody else in Australia and I don't want to be in your situation. So here it is:

"This is about my son Nick, who turns 21 on the 22nd of January, 2008. As I write this I am filled with an enormous feeling of pain and anguish. I haven’t written for a while because I couldn’t. I have been listless and I am sick to the stomach. Today, I realised that I have to accept, emotionally, that Nick is a Narc. I knew intellectually before but I tried to avoid the emotional connection. He seems to think he is invincible.

He is very remote, feelings-wise with me and, also I suspect with his friends, preferring to be the clown. He certainly likes to be the centre of his friend's worlds, for instance he is almost always the one who drives the others around. He hates being on his own. Recently, he was driving on a suspended P-Plate licence for not paying a speeding fine. He was pulled over for a random breath test and blew .129 in the car. At the police station, he blew .88, which will be the official reading. This is more than four times, the allowed limit and he is sure to loose his licence. Who is going to employ a qualified carpenter, who has a trailer load full of tools but no licence?

He refuses to clean up after himself, says it is the janitor's job. He started cleaning up but only got as far as putting the dirty washing in the laundry. By not changing his clothes regularly he shows  an unawareness of other people's expectations. He doesn't finish things, like garage next door is half demolished, the motor bike half rebuilt.

So, what is the problem? The problem is he asked to come back home in May last year. There were strict conditions, that applied to this happening because there had been a couple of instance of domestic violence and I had sought a court order. It started off okay but then things started to fall apart little by little. Gradually, it ended up with him not being able to board, even though he could afford to buy, the latest mobile phone. He left stuff everywhere to the extent that I can hardly get to my car without having to manoeuvre very carefully through all this stuff. So why don’t I read the riot act? Well, I have on a number of occasions. The difficulty is he doesn’t openly rebel. He just passively does nothing. It is very hard to enforce a demand if you get no response.

So by accepting this situation, I now get to the next step, which is asking him to leave the house and take all his stuff with him. I can, no longer, afford to keep him, and I have to get a paying border to help pay the mortgage. How I am going to enforce this, I don’t know but this is what I have to do, and it sickens me to the bottom of my heart?"

I can't contribute any more at this time.

Kim in Oz.

Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son? Part 2. Sorry folks
Post by: Kimberli63 on January 30, 2008, 04:04:59 AM
Unfortunately, my son has now got into drugs. I don't know what I am going to do about this. On Thursday night, he came off his pushbike when the guy who was towing him on a power scooter , hit a bump. Fortunately, no broken bones but a lot of lost skin and deep gouges. Then he goes off to Braddon, I think this is where the drug dealing goes on, and at 4.30am, he goes to buy cigarettes, leaving his wallet in the car with his friends, someone grabs his wallet and runs off. He is, presumably, stoked with dope and runs after the kids, who drop his wallet, and buzzes off. He then rings the police but takes off before they arrive (again drug induced behaviour), comes home as irritable as anything and starts phoning on the house phone. I chose not to come out of my bedroom for fear of being attacked.

Later after a bit of sleep, I find him under the car. Of course, I wanted to know what was going on. He was looking for the snazzy phone, the one with all the data connections, he will never use, he bought just before Christmas. He can't remember what happened to it after he phoned the cops. All he can remember is throwing it somewhere. It is turned off so he can't ring the number to find it. Being the mum I am I start looking. There is so much junk in the car, in fact it was a bit like searching through a garbage bin or a mini tip, and the stench of marijuana was overwhelming. I gave up.

I was a bit surprised he didn't go out and it was only when someone rang the doorbell, and I said "is it one of your friends?" he said "no, its the cops, can you come out?". This was when I understood, why all the windows in his car were open, and he hadn't gone out. He was, obviously, expecting the cops so there is more to this I have been told.

I find it rather sad that when the chips are down, he relies on his mother to come and save him. That is the only time he interacts with me and it not because he loves me, it is because I am useful.

What am I going to do with him? I remember another time, he went off the rails. He was 7 or 8 or maybe older. He got in with a bad crowd. It did resolve itself. But these friends, he is associating with, are friends he has had for years and they are dumb. Toby, has very good communication skills which belie, his lack of brains. He is, also, a dare devil. Josh is just dumb and a follower. He has always been in admiration of Nick so matter what he does. Josh thinks its okay.

When I had some work done on my garden, one of the guys, who removed the tree brought along a neighbour, an ex-cop, who told me if I had any trouble with Nick to call him and he would sort him out. His idea of sorting Nick out would be violent, and I can't stand violence so I can't ask. I am just getting a bit fed up at being used all the time.
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Hopalong on January 30, 2008, 08:35:10 AM
Renatha, Kimberli...

What utter heartache. I am so sorry about your sons' behavior.

I have no son so this is just my imaginary scene:

I would write your son a love letter. Tell him about moments when he was a child, how your heart glowed when you saw his little face. Moments when he was a little boy, how delighted and proud you were to see him grow and learn and discover his own competence. Moments when he was a teenager, and even though things were rough, there was a time when he helped you by doing ___. And you could see how he could grow into a strong, mature man. Someone who would stand for something, who young boys would look up to and think, I want to be like him.

But now, he's gotten off track. Some of the reasons might be the mistakes you made in parenting, and for these you are so very sorry. You were just a young woman who didn't know everything she needed to know to help him grow up.

So now, as hard as it is, he's going to have to choose what kind of life he wants. And he has to do it away from you for a while. You will always love him, but you can no longer share your home or enable him to live a self-destructive life. As hard as this is to write, you are telling him that he must leave now. There are resources for job training, for education, and for all sorts of places he can go to re-start his adulthood. He can change his course, and you have every hope that he will.

And in a year, or maybe two, you'd like him to call you and tell you how things are going. In the meantime, though, you are entitled to your own serenity and your own hopes for a peaceful life. And right now, he is making that impossible for you, so he must leave the house with all his things by _____. Whatever he doesn't take with him will be donated to charity.
============
(Hope you don't mind my fantasy dialogues...its one way I try to put myself in your shoes. Hope it helps a little.)

love,
Hops
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Kimberli63 on January 30, 2008, 09:13:57 PM
Thanks for your suggestions Hops. It is quite a dilemma  because, I don't really want to alienated from him. He is the only family I have, and yet I don't want to see him throw his life away. He has just qualified as a carpenter so he has a lot to look forward to, and yet he can't seem to get passed this immature behaviour. Because he doesn't get to meet any girls, he hangs around boys and that is when the trouble starts. He has had a girlfriend but they broke up a while ago. So both his work environment and his social environment  revolve around male activities.

Kim
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Hopalong on January 30, 2008, 09:31:47 PM
I hear you.
Sometimes they just want some tough love.
I LOVE YOU, I WANT BETTER FOR YOU, AND THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

(I am forever having perfect speeches, to make up for all the ones I didn't deliver.)

Maybe you can think of some specific consequences tied to specific bad behavior and let him know in advance?
Back talk = _________
Drinking or coming home intoxicated = _________
Etc.

Keep us posted, Kimberli.

Hops
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Bella_French on January 30, 2008, 09:39:23 PM
Dear Kim,
It must be so hard, wanting to feel close to your son, and knowing that he most likely has to go out into world and face some negative consequences before he will change his habits.  I really do feel for you; that must hurt.

Kids here in Australia seem so affluent these days. I expect that a lot of drug experimentation occurs for the simple reason that kids have part time jobs or Austudy, live at home with little or no financial responsibilities, and so they can afford to buy pills, booze, and cigarettes. But put them in a share house with other youth, where they have to pay bills, rent, &  joint living expenses, the cash starts to become very tight. And of course they will be wanting to impress girls and being a poor loser who can't attract a mate does tend to snap some young men back into reality.

Kim my best advice would be to get him out of your home; don't let yourself be his enabler out of love and need for him. I have met a lot of Nicks- much worse cases in fact-  and most of them do change. Some don't, and some take longer than others of course, but I feel that it is the minority. Regular drug use is not sustainable for the majority of kids once they leave home and stat wanting adult things. Have faith in him too; I really have some very, very bad cases. Guys who got into heroin and ecstacy, and fell in with enablers. I've seen this very type of guy straighten up for good, so theres no reason Nick wouldn't.

I hope some of that helps.

Love and hugs
Bella


Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Certain Hope on January 31, 2008, 10:43:24 AM
Dear Kim,

I'm so sorry for your heartbreak! Just praying that your Nick will meet up with some better influences in his life than the current crowd - someone who will help him break the pull of drugs and wild behavior. I know it's possible... that's how it happened with me, with alcohol. Just suddenly, I saw that I didn't "need" it anymore. That's my prayer for Nick, that he sees the truth of the great hope and promise of his life - and soon! In the meanwhile, you do seem to understand the destruction of enabling behaviors and I also pray for your strength and wisdom to do what needs to be done... for both yourself and Nick.


Carolyn

Dear Renatha,

How are you managing? Just thinking of you and hoping that all is well... and that you'll be back when possible.
Please take good care.

Carolyn

Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Mati on February 01, 2008, 05:31:12 AM
Hi

I really feel for you. Both my sons are into drugs but I am not living with them. They are with their father who is also into drugs and who has been alienating them from me for a long time, now I see. So I know what it is like to see one's child/ren throw their lives away. But things do change. I also understand the feeling of not wanting to alienate them and I think it can be done if they really see that you have given them every chance and you are not acting out of anger but love. I would write the letter but not say get out yet. Coming home in a state of intoxication is not acceptable though nor having the police come to the door. Zero tolerance on these behaviours must be enforced by asking the person to leave if they occur again (I think everyone is entitled to one mistake and another chance) I fear that if you do not have a specific boundary that they really understand will be enforced but you are giving them a chance will help preserve the relationship in the future. It is not just the drug taking imo. Someone can take drugs but still show some respect for others. Using drug taking as an excuse for abusive behaviour is another matter and you owe it to yourself, and to your sons education about what is/is not acceptable behaviour to take action.
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Renatha on February 01, 2008, 11:44:19 PM
Thank you all for your responses, whether to offer support and suggestions, or to share your own story. I've found a website which has given me some hope, it is www.narcissismsupport.com. I have also commenced in therapy to deal with my emotions connected to my marriage from 18 years ago which was so painful. The answers I am finding to understand that relationship have been so helpful. With my son gone, I am getting back my equilibrium and hope to gain the strength and support to approach him, hopefully to reconcile our relationship which will be easier now we are living apart, and to convey to him I want to understand. He did set out in an email what the painful experiences from his past have been. I just pray I the bridges haven't been burnt, and hold onto the hope that God is there in the "messiness" and will work in a powerful way, if I do my part. I've ordered a book recommended to me, "Hold onto your kids" by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. Another resource I've accessed, and my therapist uses this to help deal with emotions, the website is www.emofree.com.au. You can download the manual free.

This is an amazing site, so much support. Thanks again to all who responded, will keep you posted...
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Certain Hope on February 02, 2008, 12:23:54 AM
((((((((((Renatha))))))))))) with your strength of purpose and dedication and faith, and with God standing for you, on your side, you cannot lose. Yes, He is there in the midst of the messiness. Thank you so much for letting us know how you're doing. I'm so glad to know that you are finding all of this support... no coincidence in that, either!  Love to you and prayers for great healing and wholeness for both you and your son.

Carolyn

P.S. I marked those sites to favorites to look into soon. Thanks!
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Hopalong on February 02, 2008, 01:27:39 PM
Hi Renatha,
There is so much hope. Here's a bunch of advice you may not need (please ignore whatever's off-key):

Just be as accountable as you possibly can for your part in things (without shame, it's not the same), send him love without panicky clutching, tell him you respect his need for space and want an adult relationship now, offer to go to a few counseling sessions with him if he's willing, and let him know you are always always here for him. In particular I think it helps young adults to hear that their parents have faith in them. Not blind faith, but confidence that even though certain things have been very hard, you believe they have character and strength that will carry them through.

Being in your 20s is just hell, as I remember it. (Parenthood's not so easy either!)

Love to you both,
Hops
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Kimberli63 on February 03, 2008, 01:53:45 AM
Thanks everyone. Renatha, good luck in your path to conciliation with your son. What I am going to with my son is, as several of you suggested, write him a letter telling him how much I love him and how I want the best for him etc, and I am going to enclose newspaper clippings which I find about incidents that occur in the Remand Centre, Prisons etc. in the hope that knowing I love him and don't want to punish him, I want him to consider the consequences of taking/selling drugs, drink driving etc. I got the idea after reading all the suggestions offered, and then I saw a newspaper report that a 19 year old had been raped by another 49 year old at the Remand Centre, I thought I have to give him a chance at having a reality check. People who disobey the law, even if it is not paying speeding fines, can find themselves doing weekend detention at the Remand Centre. I do now want him to be in that environment, if I can prevent it

Wish me luck

Kim in Oz
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Hopalong on February 03, 2008, 09:30:23 AM
I think that's a good idea!
Especially if you add to the letter: I'm enclosing these clippings because they represent my fears for you.
I have faith you will not make the choices that could put you in that situation, but these are reminders...a Mum's job.

good luck and have faith,
you're doing a good job...

Hops
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son? Update
Post by: Kimberli63 on February 08, 2008, 10:03:51 PM
I told you about the difficulty I was having with my son. Yesterday, I finished writing the letter, I decided to write my son, Nick.  I told him I loved him and I cared for him and because I loved him so much, I felt that things had to change. I mentioned, I wasn't being fair letting him pay no board. I said he needed to start realising what it is like living in the real world, where most people pay board, rent, or pay off mortgages. I set a figure for board, which is about market rates. I said he had to realise that unless he helped contribute to the cost of our house, I would have to sell the house or evict him and get a tenant. I also mentioned that next year when I turn 60, I am going to retire and I will be selling the house.

I then went on to say that I feared for his safety because of the way he went about his social business. I mentioned that there were consequences for not paying parking fines, speeding tickets, etc.  I told him about the 18 year old boy, who didn't pay his fines and was given 5 days jail. During his detention, he was beaten up and suffered irreparable brain damage. This case made headlines all over the country, and the practice has been changed but he wont know that. I produced a newspaper report about the case.I told him about the dangers of being placed in jail or at the Remand Centre, where remandees rape each other. I enclosed a report in the paper here in Canberra, where a 49 year old remandee raped a 19 year old boy, who was there on periodic detention. I produced a sentencing report, handed down last week,  for a man caught drink driving. Not only was he fined but he lost his licence. He was also charged with being in possession of illegal drugs.

I told him about my friend's son, who smoked cannabis from the age of 18. He is now 32 and suffers from emphysema. I enclosed a recent report on smoking cannabis and the effect it has on people, because they inhale for longer. I said I wasn't telling him these things because I wanted to be nasty but rather because I feared for his safety. I explained, I knew he was young and wanted to experiment but I felt he needed to be aware of what reality is.

I jammed the letter and enclosures in his door. Later I noticed, he was home and he had the light on for a long time so I presume, he was digesting what I had said.

Of course, despite knowing that I had to do something to stop his behaviour, I did worry that he wouldn't like me anymore. I feel like a scared little girl, who doesn't like disapproval, no matter how displayed. I haven't seen him today and he has gone out so I don't know what his response is going to be. I know I did the right thing, even though I do feel like a bit of bitch.

Thanks to everyone, who offered suggestions. I really appreciated having my eyes open to dealing with the problem in a lot of different ways. I told a friend that initially, I had reacted and read the riot act, and nothing happened. However, I think that by writing a letter telling him I love him and I fear for his safety and why, I might get a better response. Time will tell.

Once again thanks for your comments. I found them extremely relevant.

Kim in Oz
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Certain Hope on February 08, 2008, 10:26:51 PM
((((((((Kim))))))))  you are an awesome Mom.

I wish my mother had cared enough, had been observant enough, when I was that age, to write me such a letter.

You've done all that you can, I think, and I'm praying that your message of love and concern will deeply touch Nick's heart.

Love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Kimberli63 on February 08, 2008, 10:48:18 PM
Thank you, Carolyn for your comments. It helps validate what I did. I have, in fact, just seen my son but I am not going to talk about what I said until he approaches me. He has to have time to assimilate what I said.

(((Carolyn)))
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Hopalong on February 09, 2008, 12:09:54 AM
(((((((((Kim))))))))))

You just acted like a strong adult woman.
I hope it felt good!

The scared you-gotta-like-me little girl is ready for you to take over.

I'm so happy for you.
That kind of letter feels like love, even if it's tough love.

GOOD for you; and don't don't don't "take it back".
You've set some boundaries, and in an adult way.

Hops
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Kimberli63 on February 09, 2008, 12:52:03 AM
Thanks for your comments, Hops, I am told all librarians are wimps according to an article I read the other day. Anyway, no matter what my emotions are, I had to do it for his sake. He has to start taking responsibility. At least, I haven't had any punched in doors or walls so far, so maybe, this letter made sense, whereas talking to him in the past, in the heat of the moment, suggests to me it just wasn't the right time. Timing in life seems to be so important. If only, we could follow out intuition more carefully, a lot of the damage caused by acting without thought could be prevented. Oh, that is a lesson, I must remember.

Kim in Oz

((((Hops))))
Title: Re: How do I restore my relationship with my son?
Post by: Renatha on April 18, 2009, 04:54:17 AM
It's been more than a year since I spoke to my son. I just sent an anniversary card with a written note imploring him to let me know he and his wife Lan are okay. So far nothing. Renatha.