Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hermes on January 29, 2008, 01:02:37 PM
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Hello to all:
This rather long article has some surprising things to say, and might even be seen as controversial.
See what you think?
Hermes
http://www.zurinstitute.com/victimhood.html#parttwo
""While the media, our teachers, and the milk cartons tell us the danger is 'out there,' in fact, the home and one's own neighborhood are the places where one is most likely to get hurt. Murder statistics shed further light on the relationship between victimizers and victims. It shows that at least 88% of murder victims in the U.S. had an ongoing active relationship with their murderers. The relationship ranged from intimate or close friends (28%), to relatives (24%), and acquaintances and paramours (36%). Only 12% of the cases involved complete strangers (Jain, 1990; Wolfgang & Ferracuti, 1967). The F.B.I. reports that 1.5 million children are abducted each year. The agency also claims that most of these children (80-90%) are abducted by a parent in a custody dispute and not by strangers (Gelles & Straus, 1988). ""
PSYCHOLOGY OF VICTIMS
In order to understand the psychology of victims, we must understand the major characteristics of a victim or what differentiates victims from non-victims. Whether the trauma is domestic violence, sexual molestation, or a hostage situation, the question is: what separates those who overcome the trauma and live life meaningfully from those who suffer at length from acute Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? For example, what separates women who leave abusive husbands from those who do not? Or what separates Vietnam veterans who today live meaningful lives from those who have become drug addicts or live in the mountains as armed survivalists? The difference between victims and non-victims who operate within the same social, political, economic, and legal context lies not in external factors, as is so often argued, but, as described below, in how they view themselves, the world around them, and their relationship to the trauma.
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I found this train of thought very interesting. It seems our society is so quick to villify those who are "victims", even more so that those who perpetrate the crimes or hurts that causes someone to be a victim.
I have often wondered why some people can bounce back from a negative experience so much easier than others. I know I no longer bounce back very well. In my view, it comes down to overall life experiences as well as a person's sense of hopefulness. A person who has been robbed once will bounce back after a relatively short time. But the person who has been robbed 10 times may be unable to bounce back so quickly because they no longer have much hope that they won't have to go through it again. So, if you've been seroiusly hurt over and over and over again, it is really hard to bounce back so quickly. You've lost hope. It's like someone who has just had the flu. Their system has been compromised so it is much more difficult to fight off any other infections or colds that might result.
Yes, everyone has ups and downs in their lives. But we all know people who seemingly have way more than their share of downs while others have more than the average share of ups. Just as having more "ups" in your life might result in a more positive, hopeful and happy outlook on life, the same is true if your reality is the opposite. TO me, that is simply common sense, reality.
The other thing I find interesting is that people are quick to judge those who can't bounce back quickly without looking at the reasons underlying that behavior. Instead, they go out of their way to heap praise on those who get over something quickly. It is truly admirable that these people can bounce back so well, but I've also found that they are the ones who 1) have a good support system, 2) have lives where the "bad" is balanced equally with "good", and 3) have hopefulness that is grounded in real life experiences.
Just my two cents.
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I think so too, Sunblue. In particular what you say about a good support system. It is very difficult to move forward at all without that support system, be it an association, a drop-in centre, good friends, and a therapist.
All the best
Hermes
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How are you doing, Sunblue?
I hope my last post to you didn't hurt your feelings?
I really wanted you to see how you might need to be looking for love within...
Been thinking of you,
Hops
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I was finding the ideas interesting until I read this:
"The events of September 11th did not take place in a vacuum. Related is the thought, detailed in the paper below, that the United States is not necessarily an innocent victim and may need to examine some of its past and present actions and attitudes that may have led to these atrocious behaviors. "
While US foreign policy has its problems, the author seems to be justifying 9-11. The people who died in the Towers were not asking to be obliterated in a fire ball. So, I think the author has an agenda and I'm turned off.
To me, it's like saying a woman who is beaten by her husband was asking for it. I don't like that.
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Hi Hops!
Thanks so much for inquiring....And, no, you did not hurt my feelings at all.....I appreciated what you said...and I know you are right...in the end, you have to find the strength from within....
It just has been a real sobering time for me.......I realize neither my Nmom nor co-D dad, neither "healthy" brother, nor anyone else, has ever expressed any interest in me. I read somewhere that there is a belief that we each are born into this world with a "theme" or "issue" that we must deal with. I think mine is rejection. I have been rejected by everyone in my life---family, friends, liars masquerading as boyfriends, employers, prospective employers.....Over and over again..... I have been unsuccessful in my very, very long job search...and it is often so frustrating and hurtful. No matter what I do, I can't seem to dig out of this hole. It's a vicious circle....you can't take one step out of the hole unless the first thing happens and when it never does, you can't move. It's like standing still in quick sand.
So, I guess I feel empty and sad, knowing that my family will never change, knowing that no one ever cared enough to take an interest in me......But I'm not commiserating, just continually trying to understand.
THis week, I taught my 6th grade students (I volunteer at my church) about hopefulness.....I had to conjure up quite a bit of strength to teach that lesson!
I guess I'm just at that stage when I'm beginning to understand that I will never get the things I want out of life....So sobering. But I keep trying. I sent out 50 resumes yesterday, have another phone interview tomorrow....But it's what it is I guess.
Anyway, hope you are doing well. Your comments are always so insightful and kind and filled with truth. I think it would be good for me to get away from my Nfamily but I can't do that until I find a new job....So that's why I keep trying.
I've been in and out on the board...so much I could respond to...but sometimes my heart just hurts too much to respond, if you know what I mean......
Hang in there......and thanks for thinking of me...THat really meant a lot.
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Yes, it is a controversial article, although it is not the only one on this particular topic.
AS for the cults, well I suppose it boils down to some people are more "brainwashable" than others.
It is all quite complex IMO.
All the best
Hermes
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I will do that, Besee. Thanks.
I think what I mean is that everyone would be in a cult if everyone was brainwashable. Most people do not join cults, because they know it is not a good idea, they have the sense to see what is and what isn't. A lot of people are very gullible.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello Besee:
Shall look at that one too. What I am saying is: why doesn't everyone join a cult? Are some people more "cultable" than others. They must be. I had a quick look into Steve Hassan"s site (will look at it in more depth later) but I do not see anything that explains WHY certain people join a cult, and others - the majority - do not. What kind of person joins a cult, and what kind doesn"t.
I know that some would say that some people are looking for a "family" by joining a cult, or as in the case of one notorious cult, they think they are going to be transported on a spacecraft to a faraway, (and better), world. I mean, would you believe that? Would I? So, what I am driving at is what kind of people let themselves in for being duped in such a fashion.
All the best
Hermes
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I started to re-read this article and again, started finding the ideas interesting, but, then I find another indication that the author has a political agenda, and in my point of view, a factually incorrect view:
He wrote "America got into the war in Vietnam and sustained 40 years of cold war to avoid 'becoming a victim' of the spread of communism. Later America felt victimized and threatened by the tiny island of Granada, Noriega of Panama, and Sadam Hussein of Iraq, and more recently by Somalia's so called War Lord Adid."
Not going to discuss US history extensively, but a big reason the US got into the Vietnam war was so that the French could get out of it. Remember, Indo China (Vietnam) had been a French possession or colony and the French had been fighting there for years and France was very unstable after WWII. The Vietnam war was an after math of WWII when the European powers began to shed their former colonies. And, read Marx, a big part of Marxist ideology was to spread their ideology globally, which, eventually caused the US to come up with the Domino Theory. Let's also not forget that after WWII, the Soviets never freed the Eastern European Countries and basically help Eastern Europe in servitude to Russia until 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell.
I'm not going to get into the omitted facts re: the rest of the statement, but I will say that the author is misleading, over simplifying and contorting historical fact to fit his theory. I think any nation's foriegn policy is not based on victimhood, but is based on their desire to defend themselves. Likewise, someone targeted by an N often acts to defend him or herself and those actions are not necesarily caused by victimhood alone.
I am not a flag waiver and, yes, there are many problems with the US and it's foreign policy, but the author's statement is factually wrong for so many reasons, I can't trust the author, although some ideas are interesting. I say read this with a big caveat, seems the author wants to mislead and brainwash the readers by omitting important facts.
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Indeed CB.
However, cult usual carries a certain supernatural connotation, not found in other organisations, like marketing, and so on.
I am still astounded by the number of well educated, professional people who were in that crazy cult where they believed that a spacecraft would come to collect them all and take them to a "better place", but you had to kill yourself before the spacecraft could come for you. I mean!!!, how on earth can you get yourself into that mindframe.
All the best
Hermes
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Well, I don't know Ann. and I was not particularly interested in the politically focussed part of the article, but more so on the victim-abuser dynamic within a domestic or closer to home scenario.
I would never, ever comment on the politics of another country, (and it would be impolite of me to do so here), and truth to tell I am not wildly interested either in the politics of my own country here. So all I can say is that the author of the article had his own opinions.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello Hermes,
I hear you and agree with you. I see peoples's comments on the article and I want to read it and learn from it but I keep coming across distorted facts, so I feel how can I trust this author? Know what I mean? If he distorts facts in one area, where else is he distorting?
I do not mean to criticize you, but I just want to bring this up because to me, there's misinformation in a couple of places. But, I'm going to finish reading it.
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Of course I did not think of your remarks as criticism, Ann. Indeed, you can say what you like to me LOL. I am a pretty tough lady. L.
I just thought the article might simply throw some focus of a slightly different kind on the victim-abuser scenario. The "danse macabre" between the victim and abuser is indeed macabre. It would seem that the hellish "comfort zone" of actual confrontation, physical, verbal and mental, becomes so familiar as to be almost desirable.
I cannot remember where I found an article I read quite a long time ago, written by a psych or social worker, which dealt with this issue.
""Several women from physically abusive relationships whom I have treated have told me of sensing the familiar buildup of domestic tension, then provoking a fight "just to get it over with." This response is an occasional part of the well known cycle of domestic violence. What is not expected is the answer I often get when I ask about their emotional state as the fighting begins. Several women have thought about it, then spoken of a sense of calm that obviously puzzled them. Given the numbing effects of endogenous opioids, their emotional response to violence may be understandable. Since they do not understand it, their appraisal of their behavior usually invokes shame.
And shame is the bridge to understanding how negative self-appraisal and attachment theory interact with the biochemistry of trauma to further perpetuate the cycle of revictimization. When battered wives were children, those who suffered abuse at the hands of caregivers were at risk to endure understandable threats to their attachment bonds. Disruption to attachment bonds with caregivers due to neglect or abuse produces distorted identity schema resulting in "bad me" appraisals. Not understanding the biochemistry of why they tolerate abuse or feel paradoxically calm when being battered leads abused women to feel shame, which reinforces the negative self-appraisal first put in place by disrupted attachment bonds. So an examination of attachment is in order.""
http://www.aaets.org/article58.htm
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Hello Besee:
Yes, there are similarities between NPD behaviour and cult behaviour. But they are not the same. A cult usually has a name to it, such as "Live in the Clouds Forever" (I just made that up!). A person who presents as perfectly normal is just an individual person who seems to be like other normal people one has met. No one is telepathic (yet, although I am sure there is some cult out there working on it! LOL), so how would I know such a person is other than normal.
With a cult, well all you have to do is speak to a member of the cult (the earnestness and desire to save you from yourself will immediately alert you LOL), or to a long-suffering relative of the cult member. You have something to go on.
I could, of course, have hired a private eye to check on this quite "normal presented" person. Maybe it would have been a good idea, if apparently a little paranoid at the time LOL.
All the best
Hermes
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I think the dynamics of being with an N or in an N family and a cult have similarities.
besee,
Back about 4 years ago I joined a prayer ministry within my Catholic Church. I joined for a couple of the reasons that were listed in your post above. I was wanting to belong and I was seeking new connections because my sister, who I was close with, had just married and moved to another state. My mom and her husband retired to a 4 hour drive away instead of a 45 minute one (that was blessing in disguise) and my best girlfriend moved to half a state away to start another job. All of this triggered me. In my loneliness I joined this prayer group that prayed a release of souls from purgatory.
The leader was a woman, who I wrote about on another thread, my first thread -- "I think I just had my first encounter with a N."
She was so smooth and sweet. She projected innocence and purity as well as she had this way of making people feel so special. This was all done under the guise of Jesus and Mary's love. But emotionally she was just not there. She would get passively angry (not showing it) if people did not show up for the weekly prayers. If someone would leave the group she would sulk under the guise of praying.
The prayer ministry was mostly serving her interests such as popularity and being the center of attention (N supply). She was preying off new converts and people who had just returned to the church after a long absence, the vulnerable ones.
This falls into my definition of cult like victimhood. Whenever I tried to leave the ministy because of the elitist attitude I got from others and the feelings of separateness from my real church/Parrish I paid the price of her coldness, judgment or guilt. It was all so subtle but it was all there.
Here is a mention about the psychology of false church ministries:
Psychological Tricks:
All of these false claims of special protection for the devotee of a claimed private revelation serve to make the devotee feel special: different from, and better than, other Christians. In order to keep the devotee adhered to the visionary, following the visionary rather than the Church, special devotions, prayers, medals, statues, and images are offered, each of which is specific to the visionary and their messages. This psychological trick serves to pull the devotee toward the visionary, and away from the Church, because the visionary is offering something that the Church does not offer.
From the start, I knew in my gut that something was not right about her group, reading this above confirmed it and affirmed for me to trust my gut.
Gab
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Hi Gab, A Catholic prayer ministry sounds normal to me, I imagine there are many healthy
wonderful supportive Catholic ministry - no red flag waving in my opinion
Hi Besee,
Good stuff, thanks.
You would be amazed at the corruption in Catholic prayer ministries:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/apparitions/index.htm
Thanks again for all of this insight.
Gab
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I have wanted to respond to the victimhood thread.
I think that we blame victims ,too much. I know when I was in the throes of victimhood, I could not help it. I was underwater and could not get out.
I had outside intervention. Maria 'dropped out of the sky" to help me. The Bible talks about a broken spirit and a broken heart. S/times , you have been pushed down so far that you see no way out. Then , you are so weak that many therapists will even take advantage of you.
When my H and I had marriage counseling, they sided with the "checkbook"(him). I sound cynical, I know. I think that you can be too far down, s/times and it is not really your fault. I am open to other people's ideas, though. Ami
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Dear Ami:
I do not think that, in general, any sensible and sensitive person would "blame" the victim. I am totally astounded at what you say about the "counsellor". Certainly does not sound to me like a very professional kind of person.
All in all, I feel far wider coverage needs to be given in the media on the issue of abuse, in particular mental and emotional abuse, and how it can cause more damage than physical abuse (and I am not making any excuse for physical abuse). The scars of mental abuse may well last forever, though physical wounds will heal relatively quickly. Also, it is well to never forget that mental and emotional abuse is somehow "benign". It isn't and in a vast majority of cases leads to physical abuse, even murder.
All the best
Hermes
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Hermes, my M is a therapist(20 years) and an N---"nuff said-----lol.
You are lucky that you did not run in to abusive ones.The paradox of getting therapy is that you do not trust yourself (usually) and that is part of why you need help.
So , an unscrupulous therapist can easily manipulate you for his own gains.
By the law of odds,I have had so many bad ones , that I should have YEARS of good ones, ahead(LOL) Ami
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Hello Ami:
That is indeed a sad case. Amazing that people studying psychology would not themselves be screened on entering the career and during their studies.
I would imagine that any psychologist found to be exercising any kind of malpractice would be struck off the register at once.
The psych who diagnosed my exNH was also the psych for the Prison Service in the area, and also lectured in psychology at the uni. He certainly did not have to delay long in reaching his diagnosis, and he told me afterwards that many members of the prison population had NPD.
I had many meetings with that psych, for months afterwards.
All the best
Hermes
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You Don't Have to be Gullible to be Brainwashed !!
Cults in Our Midst ...... Brainwashing in our Everyday Lives!!
by Margaret Singer
> The Process of Brainwashing:
Education
Advertising
Propaganda
Indoctrination
Thought Reform
.... Interesting straightforward table explaining all of the above on this webpage .....
http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/cults_in_our_midst/cults_in_our_midst2.html)
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Hi Hermes,
I read the article, and found myself cringing. The author sounds so angry. Or maybe ignorant. He demonstrated a complete absence of understanding regarding many issues, such as feminism, emotional abuse, wife-battering, and other issues (mostly affecting women). He probably had a long, bad marriage, started dating a younger woman, and then discovered feminism, much to his horror. This is my bet.
He basically called us all `tend-hors'. What a joke.
I think I feel sorry for this guy. He needs a hug or something.
X bella
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Ok, I take some of it back; he does make some good points too. Sorry, i didn't get right until the end until now.
X bella
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Hello Bella:
Well, I am neither for nor against the article. I expect each person takes, or not, whatever they find useful in any article. I honestly do not think anyone "blames" the victim (I do not like the word "victim" anyhow, I have to say).
Feminism, well, I won't go there either. I think off-the-rails feminism is at fault for the unnecessary polarisation of the men and women today.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello to all:
It is such a complex topic, isn't it?
Hermes
http://www.uaadv.org/info-TraumaticBonding.html
"""Traumatic Bonding
What is Traumatic Bonding?
Traumatic Bonding may be defined as the development of strong emotional ties between two persons, with one person intermittently harassing, beating, threatening, abusing or intimidating the other.
There are two common features in the structure of trauma bonded relationships:
(1) The existence of a power imbalance, wherein the maltreated person perceives himself/herself to be dominated by the other person.
(2) The intermittent nature of the abuse.
Power Imbalance
Social psychologists have found that unequal power relationships can become increasingly unbalanced over time. As the power imbalance magnifies, the victim feels more negative in her self-appraisal, more incapable of fending for herself, and more dependent on the abuser. This cycle of dependency and lowered self-esteem repeats itself over and over and eventually creates a strong affective (emotional) bond to the abuser.
At the same time, the abuser will develop an over generalized sense of his own power which masks the extent to which he is dependent on the victim to maintain his self image. This sense of power rests on his ability to maintain absolute control in the relationship. If the roles that maintain this sense of power are disturbed, the masked dependency of the abuser on the victim is suddenly made obvious.
One example of this sudden reversal of power is the desperate control attempts made by the abandoned battering husband to bring his wife back to the relationship through threats and/or intimidation.
Intermittent Abuse
When physical abuse is administered at intermittent (random times) and when it is interspersed with permissive and friendly contact, the phenomenon of traumatic bonding seems most powerful.
The three phases involved in the cycle of violence (tension building, battering and “honeymoon”) provide a prime example of intermittent reinforcement. The unpredictable duration and severity of each phase serve to keep the victim off balance and in hopes of change. The “honeymoon” phase is an integral part of traumatic bonding. It is this phase that allows the victim to experience calm and loving feelings from the abuser and therefore strengthens her emotional attachment.