Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Violet on January 29, 2008, 01:14:15 PM
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Hello,
Does this make any sense? My Nmother (hope it is ok to call her that, she does not have a formal diagnosis, just my belief is that she fits the criteria) just called this morning wanting information about my grown kids. Since I started hearing alarm bells, I used a ploy to disengage that works well ("I am right in the middle of something, mom, not a good time, so can't talk, bye!"), but thinking about the conversations I usually have with her, I wonder if I have used voicelessness and subjugating personal needs as a way to remain aloof and indestructable from the Ns in my family, in other words, have I derived a sort of twisted personal power from NOT allowing myself to have a voice or needs or individuality, so that they cannot turn on me and trounce on me? I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do. Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?
Violet
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Hello Violet:
I can see that you probably do not want to get into any kind of argument with your M. In any case, "conversation" (the word makes me laugh in the N-context) with an N will invariably become an argument. A therapist once said to me, and it was good advice: don't be drawn into the game, just say "whatever you say", regardless of what the N-person says. This was in the final days of the post-N experience (my case being different to yours, of course, as it was an N-husband). "whatever you say", or "anything you say", kind of defuses the situation, I found.
All the best
Hermes
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A therapist once said to me, and it was good advice: don't be drawn into the game, just say "whatever you say", regardless of what the N-person says.
Hermes
Yes, Hermes, I think that may be what I mean. PS, my first H was an abusing, addicted, charming, law breaking, cheating (as in shagging everyone he could get his hands on, including while I was in the hospital having our first child) Narcissist. I was married to him for 3 years and finally ran away.... He nearly destroyed my sanity, or what was left of it after my FOO was done with me. Wow, I guess that makes me a survivor. :?
Thanks for writing.... Violet
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Hello,
Does this make any sense? My Nmother (hope it is ok to call her that, she does not have a formal diagnosis, just my belief is that she fits the criteria) just called this morning wanting information about my grown kids. Since I started hearing alarm bells, I used a ploy to disengage that works well ("I am right in the middle of something, mom, not a good time, so can't talk, bye!"), but thinking about the conversations I usually have with her, I wonder if I have used voicelessness and subjugating personal needs as a way to remain aloof and indestructable from the Ns in my family, in other words, have I derived a sort of twisted personal power from NOT allowing myself to have a voice or needs or individuality, so that they cannot turn on me and trounce on me? I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do. Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?
Violet
Dear Violet,
I do the same thing, and I use it as a survival tool. I don't think N's can be trusted with knowing your real feelings, or even your real needs; they become a part of you that can be manipulated and used as leverage.
The tricky part is making sure you only use this tactic with N's, not with everyone. `Hiding' is an intimacy killer.
I relate to your relationsip with your Mother, and the way you strive for honesty in a way that will not harm you. I am the same way with my mother.
X bella
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Hi Violet,
It makes great sense - basically what you are doing is respecting your own limits with your family and mother because you know that she, or they, are not capable or will not respect your limits. You are wise and intuitive to to disengage this way. If you were to be direct and say something like "you know I really do not feel comfortable talking about my children with you." it could set your mom off, correct?
My sister, brother and I do this with our mom. My younger brother actually taught my older sister and I how to do exactly what you described in your post. When my moms calls we have chit chat, small talk, that consists of mostly what is happening in her life. But when the conversation turns to us and she begins to become invasive or starts crossing our limits we pretend like suddenly we have to get off the phone. For the most part I keep my dialogue short and sweet with my N mom. It is the only way for me to not get emotionally drained and to not get sucked into her drama and games.
Hope this helps and welcome to the board!
Here is a blog spot article about thought crimes.
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/10/thought-crimes.html
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The tricky part is making sure you only use this tactic with N's, not with everyone. `Hiding' is an intimacy killer.
X bella
Uh, oh, I need to work on this. I think I have been "hiding" most of my life.... V
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Hi Violet,
It makes great sense - basically what you are doing is respecting your own limits with your family and mother because you know that she, or they, are not capable or will not respect your limits. You are wise and intuitive to to disengage this way. If you were to be direct and say something like "you know I really do not feel comfortable talking about my children with you." it could set your mom off, correct?
Yes, this would set my Nmom off and cause me to listen to stuff designed to make me feel guilty, thank you for helping me see it this way and also for the link to the article. V
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Hi Violet,
What kind of information did she want?
Hops
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Violet you wrote:
I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do. Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?
It makes complete sense to me and I think it is great. I've only been starting to implement this practice over the past couple of years as I have (finally) been learning about N-ism and finally coming out of the forest of family enmeshment. Every time I evade a pitfall or dodge a toxic interaction, I feel giddy with delight. I spent years falling into every pitfall and stumbling predictably into each and every toxic trap. Or so it feels. I guess I see interacting this way as skilled and tempered and proactive.
On the other hand, what I think of in my own life as hiding is - my family of origin treats my opinions, interests, preferences, observations and perceptions with contempt, or patronizing, or rejection etc. Especially when I was a girl, this was incredibly painful. This is together with being parentified and forced into caretaking and told in so many ways that wanting something for myself or having a preference or opinion was selfish - also squashed that sense of personal agency and autonomy which is so important to living your own life. I got to a point where I could not tell you what I wanted. I did not know what I wanted. I did not know I could want or allow myself to have a want. I would rather say - what do you want to me do? What do you want me to want, that is what I will want. It was hiding but something way beyond hiding. When I wound up in therapy the T would repeatedly return to asking me what I wanted, or asking me to list things I liked, things I was good at, things I had skills or abilities in. Couldn't say. Choked.
This inability to come forward to express things that are really important to me is still probably my number one issue. I can't go in the direction of my heart's desire basically. I can't even know what it is, really.
So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out. I guess to me the difference is - do I know what I think and feel?? If I do, then it's okay to decide not to share. But to me that is a very different place than being so squashed, so blighted, so intimidated that you are beyond despair about having a thought or feeling in the first place because of being in a place of just - wrongness. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm writing too vaguely?
And welcome Violet!
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Iphi, you are eloquent.
Truly.
Perhaps that's one thing you may want...
to perceive your own rare gifts.
love
Hops
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Hi Violet,
What kind of information did she want?
Hops
Well, actually it was pretty innocuous :oops: just contact info, etc. Seemed to trigger a gut reaction of fear, I don't know.... V
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Hey Violet - I think most everybody around here believes in - 'Trust your gut!' 8)
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Hello Violet:
Your reaction was the way people react to Ns. I can recognise that. I read a poster once say that the NPdisordered person seems to generate "a sense of impending doom". So, it is not what the N says or asks, but the feeling the very sound of his or her voice generates. In fact, they can make you want to scream.
All the best
Hermes
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Violet you wrote: I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do. Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?
It makes complete sense to me and I think it is great. I've only been starting to implement this practice over the past couple of years as I have (finally) been learning about N-ism and finally coming out of the forest of family enmeshment. Every time I evade a pitfall or dodge a toxic interaction, I feel giddy with delight. I spent years falling into every pitfall and stumbling predictably into each and every toxic trap. Or so it feels. I guess I see interacting this way as skilled and tempered and proactive.
On the other hand, what I think of in my own life as hiding is - my family of origin treats my opinions, interests, preferences, observations and perceptions with contempt, or patronizing, or rejection etc. Especially when I was a girl, this was incredibly painful. This is together with being parentified and forced into caretaking and told in so many ways that wanting something for myself or having a preference or opinion was selfish - also squashed that sense of personal agency and autonomy which is so important to living your own life. I got to a point where I could not tell you what I wanted. I did not know what I wanted. I did not know I could want or allow myself to have a want. I would rather say - what do you want to me do? What do you want me to want, that is what I will want. It was hiding but something way beyond hiding. When I wound up in therapy the T would repeatedly return to asking me what I wanted, or asking me to list things I liked, things I was good at, things I had skills or abilities in. Couldn't say. Choked.
This inability to come forward to express things that are really important to me is still probably my number one issue. I can't go in the direction of my heart's desire basically. I can't even know what it is, really.
So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out. I guess to me the difference is - do I know what I think and feel?? If I do, then it's okay to decide not to share. But to me that is a very different place than being so squashed, so blighted, so intimidated that you are beyond despair about having a thought or feeling in the first place because of being in a place of just - wrongness. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm writing too vaguely?
And welcome Violet!
There is so much here to think about. I vibrate to everything you stated! I must say, this in particular underscores the current state of my being: "I got to a point where I could not tell you what I wanted. I did not know what I wanted. I did not know I could want or allow myself to have a want. I would rather say - what do you want to me do? What do you want me to want, that is what I will want. "
Also I fear and resist interactions with my family because they automatically try to squeeze me into a mold that does not fit me and is so uncomfortable. They do not know who I am. This is lack of respect at its most basic level.
I especially like your term "the forest of family enmeshment." That is so well put....Violet
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So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out.
So true - and how I need to keep working on this - separating out my old past hurts and anger to know when I am being reactive and simply setting a firm limit to never lash out.
In AA we say progress not perfection, which I am so glad because I tend to shame myself for not being perfect or for lashing out. But I have realized that practicing not lashing out is like emtional spiritual exercise the more I dicipline myself the stronger the UN-reactive mucsle gets. I say I don't want to lash out ever again.
Good post, thanks!
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So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out. I guess to me the difference is - do I know what I think and feel?? If I do, then it's okay to decide not to share. But to me that is a very different place than being so squashed, so blighted, so intimidated that you are beyond despair about having a thought or feeling in the first place because of being in a place of just - wrongness. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm writing too vaguely?
That makes perfect sense Iphi; so well said! I love your post too; I haven't seen so much of you lately? Its nice when you're around!
I think there is some confusion regarding what to do with our new, stronger, voices when we finally have them. Some people feel that they should be able to `be authentic' around their families of origin , and then when that authenticity is met with the normal aggressive N reactions -rejection, hostility, abuse- then they become outraged and reject their family.
I have thought about it. But I also know that my family is complex and will probably not change, not really. My mother is an N, and the reason I developed the voice I did as a child was because it was the best form of communication to have with an N; with her specifically. It was a voice that minimized abuse, and afforded me the maximum amount of freedom within the bounds of her personality and power over my life.
She no longer has that power. Once I realized that I could, and would abandon her if necessary, I decided that I wouldn't. I recognized that I love her, and understand her pain, and want the best for her.
I can be assertive, I can be authentic, and I am strong (but also weak). Some of that has crept into my relationship with my mother. For example, she senses my strength by the way I do not allow myself to be manipulated by her, and i minimize contact. And there is *a little* room for me expressing my needs, and getting them met (it all comes down to language).
But I am not `the real me ' around her. To be honest, I am not `the real me' around most people. I am only fully transparent under very specific conditions, such as an intimate relationship or long term friendship.
I am not 100% sure about what the ideal contact level is with any N; I expect it is fluid, and depends on the individual and how much power the have in your life.
Anyway thanks for listening; I really appreciate this topic Violet!
X bella
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Yes Vi-I can see a similar dynamic between my mom and I. I try to set boundaries and am successful most of the time. Sometimes I fall into a dance which is VERY dysfunctional! But sometimes I play a game where I play her. I even find me gas lighting HER. If I see her slip at all-I jump on it and am VERY quick to point it out. I am always trying to dis credit her-I just want so much to take her down as revenge of what she has done to me.
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To everyone,
This is really an awesome thread... so full of honesty and wisdom. Thank you, Violet, for beginning it!
With winter storms bearing down, our little town is practically closed today...and what a blessing to be able to catch up on reading here. I really have nothing to add at this point, just wanted to express appreciation and say that I relate so strongly to much of what's been said - - this is one of those to which I'll return, time and again, I think.
Oh, just realized...
With the extra time (likely a 4-day weekend) I need to clear away the stack of 6-7 weekly envelopes from my parents, lest they accumulate further...
For once, I'd like to accomplish that without the sense of urgent "shoulds"... without the triggers while reading... without the swirling thoughts and memories which follow... with dignity and contented peace.
... Bella, just realized that I do not think I'm ready to give up the notion of being authentic with my new voice around my parents. And even as I write that, I recognize what's attached to that is... still wanting them to know me. Thank you for helping me see, just now, what is the hook there. For me to read their letters while treating them (emotionally) as aquaintances is not to be less than authentic... or disingenuous. I can determine myself to be an authentic near-stranger to them - which is, in effect, the case. Okay, well - I say that I can make that determination, but clearly that's easier said than done. Nonetheless, that is what I think needs to be practiced.
I can be as genuine and open and emotionally guarded from them as I would be with any stranger/potentially unsafe persons.
Praying I can wade through their correspondence with that attitude of heart and mind, considering this to be practical experience at guarding my mind and heart around people who don't really want to know me.
Thanks again!
With love,
Carolyn