Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: ann3 on January 31, 2008, 02:43:24 PM
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I am reading a book called Healing your Emotional Self by Beverly Engel. I have read similar books, like Safe People and Boundaries. Most of these books say that parents condition the child to attract Ns. The books says parents do this through shaming and blaming the child and that the child internalizes these messages so that later in life, the child become an "N magnet". Do you think this is true?
I never realized that my parents "abused" me until I was 40, which was 3 years ago. I thought they were strict, but loving, they would punish me, hit me, scream at me because I needed it and they said that they did it out of love, like "We wouldn't hit, scream, punish if we didn't love you". I accepted thier reasoning until I woke up at age 40. Now I see that they could have disciplined me in a less damaging way and much of their treatment was not justified but, when your'e a small child, you can't fight back (or else you are hit and punished), you're their prisoner, so you accept it.
The weird thing is that I never thought my parents abused me as a child, but I have all they symptoms of a person who was abused as a child. Now, I'm guessing that I believed I was not abused because I accepted the way my parents treated me as 'normal' and 'necessary' because 'I deserved it' and could be troublesome to them.
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Hello Ann:
Yes, abusive parents can condition a child to attract an abuser in later life - this could be an N-abuser, or a non-N abuser.
The reason being that the child assumes the "abuse", be it emotional or physical, is a normal existence. There is a vast amount of information on this particular topic.
No doubt your parents could have provided discipline in a less damaging way, but very often it is a case that the parents were in turn treated like that by their own parents. It is like a vicious circle.
There is this book:
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life (Hardcover)
by Dr. Susan Forward
""All parents fall short from time to time. But Susan Forward pulls no punches when it comes to those whose deficiencies cripple their children emotionally. Her brisk, unreserved guide to overcoming the stultifying agony of parental manipulation--from power trips to guilt trips and all other killers of self worth--will help deal with the pain of childhood and move beyond the frustrating relationship patterns learned at home".
All the best
Hermes
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Hello Hermes,
I have read read Toxic Parents, great book and you are correct that there is a vast amount of literature which confirms this theory.
Maybe I'm not asking the right question, maybe my question is: Why do I have so much trouble accepting all the vast literature confirming this? Is it that my feelings of guilt won't let me accept the truth?
Also, Why didn't I see my parents as abusers when when were abusing me and why did I fail to see them as abusers after I became an adult?
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I suppose, Ann, that is very difficult to accept that one's parents (who are supposed to be care-givers) could be abusive. Also, a lot of abuse is very covert, it does not "look" like abuse. What I mean is you don't have to beat someone into a pulp to be abusive. It can be done in other ways: emotional, psychological and verbal abuse.
A child cannot often distinguish, and besides is helpless in the face of abuse, be it verbal or otherwise. Another thing is that the abuse does not go on for the whole 24 hours of the day. So, there is confusion in the child's mind.
Maybe you feel guilty of feeling this way about your parents. But the truth is the truth. I don't know how you would feel now about discussing all this with your parents. Then again, maybe not. Perhaps you would like to (or already have) spoken with a psychologist about all this.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello Hermes,
You are a very wise woman. Thank you for your answer.
Did you ever feel the feelings I'm describing? Maybe I'm emotionally blind due to guilt?
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Ann,
I felt much the same way until I had my own children. It is amazing to see the difference between their childhoods and mine. The know the rules. They are comfortable and happy. Thy accept consequences. They are kind and helpful.
I was fearful. I hid things. I snooped. I never felt happy - even as a child. I also would not say for ages that my parents 'abused' me. As others here pointed out, we don't have to use that term. But we can be sure they were not good parents. Please tell us more. Many will have stories to share with you and will relate to your childhood, I am sure.
Welcome, Ann.
Love, Beth
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Thank you Ann. Maybe I should mention that I had very good kind parents, and did not come from the kind of abusive parenting so many of our posters have endured. Both my parents are now dead, and I miss them all the time, every day. They were wise, strict when necessary, kind, gave me a lot of leeway, had a good balance (and believe me I was quite a spirited child LOL), and did their very best as parents.
I had an N-spouse, so the situation is a bit different.
No, I do not suffer from guilt, in the sense you describe. I sometimes feel I would love to have spent a lot more time with my parents.
All the best to you.
Hermes
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Dear Ann,
We have denial kick in, when we need it. I think that you are describing denial of your parents abuse. I have a healthy respect for denial,now. I am still in denial about my son's death. I ,only feel a small percentage of the pain, maybe 20%. The rest is buried for a time when I can let it out.
Denial kicks in ,automatically, and is life saving. NOW, you,obviously, can face it, so you are. That is how I see it ,anyway. Love Ami
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Dear Ann:
You did not deserve any of the emotional bashing you got as a child - no child deserves that. But of course you were made to believe it, and it takes a while to get over that.
With every respect, I think abuse should be called abuse, and brought right out into the open. Euphemisms have a bad habit of watering down the perception of the abuse.
All the best to you.
Hermes
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Hi, Ann,
I never thought of my parents as being neglectful or abusive until after marrying npd-ex.
It's as though that man expressed all of the condemnation and envious spite which I'd always sensed from my mother... but in her silence, she'd kept it under wraps.
Well, he let it all fly at me, loose and unrestrained - all the projection and blame-shifting and criticism and nit-picking and sabotaging - and oh, especially the shunning and abandonment - with the bottom line message always coming through to me as, "you need me in order to be alright - alone, you are hopelessly insufficient."
The theme of his story was the same old familiar one from childhood - "do it my way or you are garbage."
Coming out of that mess, once the fog cleared, I finally had a chance (and good reason!) to question just exactly why the whole abusive scenario felt so familiar to me!
Maybe for some of us it just takes a shock to be startled out of so many years of denials, Ann? I mean, apparently our former way of looking at things did work for us, for a time... after all, that was all we knew. Maybe it's as we age and begin to slow down physically that we are more inclined to look within and question these things? For me, it was a combination of events, but primarily this short (3-year) marriage to a pathological, malignant narcissist. All I can say is - let's don't stew over how long it took, just be glad to have awakened!
It really is so very disorienting. If these people are not who I always thought they were, then who am I?
And if I'm honest with myself about the neglectful/abusive way in which my parents' raised me, then... well, then I must face the deeper issues of forgiveness and release, which is alot more painful than just saying, "aw, it really wasn't so bad."
I thought I'd come out of it all fairly okay, remarrying after npd-ex and all... continuing to raise my children... but there was still more to uncover and purge... and it goes all the way back to the beginning. NPD-ex was only a symptom of a much deeper problem.
So, this really is a mountain that can't be gone around... just gotta keep on marching right on over the top.
Seeking those straight paths...
with love,
Carolyn
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because maybe they weren't abusive- to them I mean. A child hasn't yet fully formed a reality, so if the adults say something is normal or acceptable he/she has no choice but to believe it, even against all evidence. If the parents truly believed- as so many parents still do- that violence or witholding were useful even necessary you the child have got a foot in each reality, but they are the ones who are more powerful and who you depend on for love and shelter....so you given up your own position and adopt theirs...
For many of us here that has been the unlearning experience- we are no longer the helpless child who has to accept another's reality now, but a capable adult with ability and agency.
There is still the trauma and grieving to get through but once you stand firmly in your own reality and know 'this is my authentic experience' not only are you healing but you will prevent other patterns of abuse forming which come from the doublethink which such an impossible childhood situation engenders.
Welcome!
~Write
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Thank you all so much my friends for your wisdom.
I'm about to go out, but you all just enabled me to have a light bulb Flash :idea:: Maybe if I accept and acknowledge the abuse, then I will have to re-think my entire identity, because I must acknowledge that I didn't have the idealic childhood that my parents told me I had, so I was never the child I thought I was. So, if I was not the child I thought I was, then I am also not the adult I thought I was prior to becoming aware of the abuse.
So, if I accept that there was abuse, I must question my entire identity because I was not the child/person who I thought I was? Maybe I'm afraid to accept that there was abuse because then I will have to re-evalute my identity and find out who I really am??? :idea:
Must dash, will return later, thank you all and bless you all
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Exactly, Ann... that has been my own dilemma, at least... thank you for expressing it better than I could!
Enjoy your outing!
Carolyn
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Ann3, hi....
I have been protecting my dad and covering for him for over 50 years. My Nmom made his life a living hell and he could never stand up to her, so I took care of his emotions and always came to his rescue. I hated her for how she treated him. He died a broken, pathetic alcoholic.
Why am I just now getting to the point where I am looking at the stuff HE did to me, with a bit of objectivity, instead of making excuses for him:
beatings with belts, even if you were innocent, opening the bathroom door and staring while child on toilet and taunting and laughing and pointing, making me run a gauntlet naked while taunting, laughing, pointing; screaming and cursing upon the slightest infraction of the rules, drinking to drunkenness every night after work (oh, HE was not an alcoholic, he went to work everyday!), swearing and using such foul language I was too ashamed to bring any friends home, getting me drunk at age 13 and telling me all the horrible experiences he had in WWII, the list goes on.... HOW, HOW can I be over age 50, with a college degree and just NOW be getting it???? Somebody please tell me how come I am so blind??? No wonder I have had so many issues with trust.... Violet
PS Sorry about the ranting tone, everyone.... :(
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Dear Ann3,
Identity - yes. A new one start to finish. You will experience the worst of times and the best of times because of the reliving and the reconstructing. Been there, done that or I should say doing that. From one whose been there and is doing that, just remember to search for the highest quality recovery/therapy you can find. I did it alone, I barely survived.
Sincerely,
tt
PS Love the wisdom and transparency you've brought to the board. Thank you so much.
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My dear, dear Friends,
I thank each and everyone of you for helping me. Your precious words are truly food for thought because every word has helped me fine tune my thinking so that I can at least identify the problem and hopefully solve the mystery of why I feel the way I do.
Hermes,
You helped me to ask the right question. I’m happy for you that you had good parents. Both my parents are also dead and I miss them too. I miss them and yet, they were abusive. Does that mean I love the abuser? I don’t know. “A watered down perception of abuse”. That is beautiful and right on target. Maybe that is what I’m suffering from: “A watered down perception of abuse”.
Beth,
So good to hear you are raising your children in a non-confusing open way so that you don’t repeat the consequences of your upbringing. They will be healthy adults. What a gift you are giving them.
When I was a child, I think one of my main concerns was how can I get through the day without being punished (no tv, no whatever ‘priviledge’) or screamed at or hit. I suppose it was a minefield, but I have trouble remembering and maybe I have trouble remembering because it’s too hurtful to remember.
I do remember that when my parents went to teacher-parent conferences (I was about 7-9 years old), I would hide in the closet when they came home because I was afraid that my teacher would say I was a bad kid. Then, I’d be surprised because my teachers gave my parents good reports and I was shocked that the reports were good. I guess I thought I was a bad kid and would get bad reports. If the teacher thought I was good, why did I think I was bad? Probably because my parents made me feel like I was a bad kid.
A later memory: When I was in my 30s, I tried a few times to tell my mother that somethings she did to me (spank or hit me) really hurt me or had damaging repercussions for me, she answered me mockingly and sarcastically by saying “Oh you poor mis-understood, mistreated thing, you had it so hard”. That would shut me up.
Ami,
My heart goes out to you so much. I wish feelings of peace and comfort will fill you up from head to toe. Words fail me. I feel terrible about your son and your loss. If I may say this: you wrote else where that perhaps you could have stopped this from happening, but I don’t think you could have stopped it. I think we want to believe we could have done something to have stopped the horrible thing from happening, but I don’t think we could have. People, even our children, make choices and we have no control over the choices they make. Life can be so strange. I am so sorry.
You are awesome to help me when you are going through such incredible distress yourself. The words ‘steel magnolia’ come to mind-strong and beautiful, that’s what you are.
You are right about denial. Denial is a strange thing, it saves us when we need it and we must discard it when we no longer need it but, the problem becomes that we must figure out when we no longer need denial, other wise, it clutters up our mind. I guess the painful part is when we discard denial because then we see the truth and yet knowing the truth is wonderful (but sometimes painful). It's such a paradox. May God keep you and protect you, Ami and thank you for your wise comments.
Izzy,
You are so right about abuse being sneaky and that my parents (as my counselor said) had ‘poor parenting skills’ because their parents also had ‘poor parenting skills’. You’re right about our environment being all we know, so the non-abusive world feels alien, plus breaking the chain of abuse. Here’s a question: why is it us who breaks it? Why didn’t our parents break it? I think I know the answer: because we ‘see it’ and they didn’t. But for me, it’s an unsatisfying answer.
I also had a b*tch grandmaw! and, like you, she made my parents look like the Brady Bunch parents. I’m sorry to hear you and your daughter are somewhat estranged and that she married an N. I also married an N. Spent about 3 years in that marriage until I knew I had to leave or it would kill me, divorced him about 3 years ago. I never should have married, I had a bad role model, although my parents always told we they had a good marriage, but then why were they always fighting?
I know what you mean with the ‘going crazy’. Reminds me of when I’d ask my mother what she was serving for dinner and she’d answer “poison” and then I’d be silent. Why couldn’t she just tell me what she made for dinner and not mess with my mind using her sarcasm?
Carolyn,
Your post about the book Safe People really resonated with me and I want to fashion my life according to that book.
"you need me in order to be alright - alone, you are hopelessly insufficient” and “do it my way or you are garbage”.
yup, I know what you’re talking about, except my mother was not silent about it, no, she said it but my ex-h was silent about it. Wow, I’m the opposite of you: My M was very vocal unless she was giving me the silent treatment. Now I realize that my M and ex-h were passive aggressive-afraid to ask directly for what they wanted, so they demanded it indirectly. Light bulb moment :idea:: passive aggressives can drive you crazy!!! They demand we read their minds and we are never right. Another bulb moment: :idea: passive aggressives are sado-maschists, they torture themselves and they torture us.
“why the whole abusive scenario felt so familiar to me!”- me too
“All I can say is - let's don't stew over how long it took, just be glad to have awakened!”
Amen sister. I want to move on so I can live my life.
I think this is what I am facing and feeling now:
“It really is so very disorienting. If these people are not who I always thought they were, then who am I? And if I'm honest with myself about the neglectful/abusive way in which my parents' raised me, then... well, then I must face the deeper issues of forgiveness and release, which is alot more painful than just saying, "aw, it really wasn't so bad" and it goes all the way back to the beginning. NPD-ex was only a symptom of a much deeper problem.”
As you say a “deeper problem”.
Carolyn, I am stunned and disheartened at the depth of this thing. It seems to originate at or prior to my birth (my nasty grandparents and prior generations). How far back need I go? Adam & Eve? Seriously, my task to find out who I really am seems overwhelming. Where/what is the real me and what is the ‘not me’, which is the garbage that the abusers flung at me and stuck to me, like barnacles? Seeking a straight pass over the mountain of barnacles.
Write,
You said it sister and I think this is my truth, my dilemna:
“maybe they weren't abusive- to them I mean. A child hasn't yet fully formed a reality, so if the adults say something is normal or acceptable he/she has no choice but to believe it, even against all evidence. If the parents truly believed- as so many parents still do- that violence or witholding were useful even necessary you the child have got a foot in each reality, but they are the ones who are more powerful and who you depend on for love and shelter....so you given up your own position and adopt theirs...”
Thank you Write for clarifying the confusion and it is confusion: love going hand in hand with abuse: that is a sick and dark curse to put on anyone, especially a child. Now I really understand the saying : "The evil that men do lives after them".
Unlearning, trauma, grieving, standing firmly in my own reality, in my authentic exerience, healing, preventing the pattern, no more double think. Oh, Write, that is so brilliant. Thank you so much
Violet,
I am so sorry to hear about your Mother and Father. I am so sorry to hear about the terrible things your father did to you. Horrible. My father was not as bad. He was a “good” father, other than the spanking, hitting, yelling and punishments. Yeeesh!
I think it’s so difficult to absorb in our hearts why we were so blind. Denial stopped us from seeing the truth deep down in our hearts.
Trust? My life is really limited because I trust almost no one, but I’m working on this and a book which really helped me is called “Safe People” by Cloud and Townsend. I am looking forward to implementing the book’s suggestions.
Hello tt,
Good to hear from you. How are you doing? How are you feeling? Are you giving yourself some love? I hope so. How is your mother and brother?
“Identity - yes. A new one start to finish. You will experience the worst of times and the best of times because of the reliving and the reconstructing. Been there, done that or I should say doing that. “
I know you’re right, tt and (lightbulb moment :idea:) maybe that’s why I didn’t want to admit the abuse because if I did, I’d have another boat load of work to do: who am I? what do I want? Where and how shall I go? But, now, I see, thanks to all you wonderful people, that there’s no going back. I can’t unring the bell. Once you know and see, you can’t un-know and un-see :idea:, unless you want to live in denial and I don’t want to do that.
tt: thank you for your kind words. Please let me (us) know how you are.
Thank you all again. I want to hug each of you. Each of you has given me a profound gift and changed my life.
Xoxoxox,
Annie
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Dear Ann:
I hope you are well today.
I think Izzy is right, and it would be counterproductive to hate outright your parents. Hate is a corrosive, bitter thing, and can turn itself inward on the hater.
Yes, some parents were a product of their generation, it is said. On the other hand, child abuse statistics are currently horrific, and amazingly high. So, has anything changed. Sure, the strap has been abolished from schools, there is legislation in many countries against child physical abuse, but........child mental and emotional abuse and ill-treatment. By the looks of it that seems to be worse than ever.
"""Yet, despite 30 years of legislation, there is no sign of a decline in the problem of child abuse. Reviewing the research the author traces the progression from early psychiatric explanations for abuse to the present-day emphasis. Facts About Child Physical Abuse (The Facts About...) (Paperback)
by Bill Gillham""
It is all so sad.
All the best
Hermes
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This is truly grim reading, and unfortunately these statistics also apply to other countries worldwide.
""Child Abuse Statistics in the USA
An estimated 906,000 children are victims of abuse & neglect every year. The rate of victimization is 12.3 children per 1,000 children
Children ages 0-3 are the most likely to experience abuse. They are victimized at a rate of 16.4 per 1,000
1,500 children die every year from child abuse and neglect. That is just over 4 fatalities every day.
79% of the children killed are younger than 4.
Consequences of Child Abuse and Neglect in USA
80% of young adults who had been abused met the diagnostic criteria for at least 1 psychiatric disorder at the age of 21 (including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, & post-traumatic stress disorder)
Abused children are 25% more likely to experience teen pregnancy
Children who experience child abuse & neglect are 59% more likely to be arrested as a juvenile, 28% more likely to be arrested as an adult, and 30% more likely to commit violent crime.
14.4% of all men in prison in the United States were abused as children and 36.7% of all women in prison were abused as children
Children who have been sexually abused are 2.5 times more likely develop alcohol abuse
Children who have been sexually abused are 3.8 times more likely develop drug addictions
Nearly 2/3’s of the people in treatment for drug abuse reported being abused as children
There are nearly 3 million reports of child abuse made annually
In 2003, there were 906,000 child abuse convictions
The rate of child abuse is estimated to be 3 times greater than is reported.
The rate of victimization is 12.3 children per 1,000 children
Children ages 0-3 are the most likely to experience abuse. They are victimized at a rate of 16.4 per 1,000
http://www.childhelp.org/resources/learning-center/statistics
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Izzy,
I’m so sorry to hear about the car crash and your mother’s callous, uncompassionate reaction. I can image that reaction must caused you incredible pain and damaged you. It sounds like there have been many hard breaks in your life. I am so sorry.
I agree with you that that knowledge and technology can improve our lives, so that life if less harsh. Like, we are all no longer afraid of getting from small pox. Earlier generations had it tougher and yet you always knew something was wrong, but you weren’t sure what it was. I felt the same way.
I’m like you, I don’t hate my parents. I guess I understand the why and how they were, but they still did damage. I think It’s hard to hold those 2 feelings at once- I love them, but they hurt me.
Thank you again for the insight.
Hermes,
I agree.
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Dear Annie,
Just a note to let you know that I've just read your later posts here, along with the others... and I'm still cheering you on.
Regularly, still, I get such strong urges to turn and run from all this.
Just cleaned out the fireplace ash and... there they are, off to the side of the hearth, still... sealed envelopes filled with many weeks worth
of wishful thinking from my parents (mostly my dad)... as they continue making contact with me, but only on their terms, and with no true connection.
Truly, I feel like I'm one of their habits or addictions, when it comes to these letters... and this has been going on for so long now (7 years), with no resolution.
At the moment, I also feel like surely I must be downright ornery to not just open them and get it over with...
but there's never a "good time" for it. I have an inkling, though... that maybe I'm so reluctant to simply open them as they arrive, and take them as they come,
because I'm afraid that I'll slip back yet again into that old denial pattern... where pretending like everything was okay was the name of the game.
More hugs to you... this is a process which defintely takes time!
Love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Thank you for cheering me.
I have been reading that your parents send you envelopes and that you hate opening them. What do they send you? Are you in No Contact with them? They contact you without wanting to hear your voice? That must ripe you apart. That is so painful.
They want to feel they have a connection to you, but they won’t listen to you? I think that is the essence of having N parents (other than total abandonment). They just don’t get it and it drives us crazy that they won’t hear us, so we go No Contact. That is such a hard situation, they reach out, but they can’t touch us in the way we want to be touched. As you discussed in your Safe People post, perhaps they won’t hear you because they won’t treat you like an adult. They still treat you like a child that should simply obey them? Your voice is not equal to theirs because to them, you are still the child? Don’t go back to denial and pretending everything is OK.
What if you sent them a letter and told them how you feel? No matter what their reaction would be, at least you wouldn’t be voiceless. If they rejected your letter, then the truth would be confirmed, but maybe they’ll listen now? Is it worth taking a chance?
xoxoxo
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Hi Ann,
I think when you first begin to name things, it's disorienting and scary. After a while, your focus shifts off your parents and onto yourself. The silver lining is, you start to make friends with yourself. And you're still in there...no amount of introspection or reality wrangling will annihilate you.
I think the most important thing is to be very friendly to yourself. To understand that your inner undamaged self is delightful, interesting, full of talents, ready for discovery. When things are painful you'll be compassionate to her and embrace her. When she gets to take a breath and let it go for a few days, you'll be friends exploring again, enjoying the present, responding to daily wonders.
I think nature, and animals, can be tremendous sources of peace during this process. It doesn't matter how old you are when you hear the call of reality. Reality is your friend, ultimately.
I can tell from your voice that you have a very clear mind. I'm not afraid for you.
And I'm glad you're here.
Hops
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Dear Violet,
It won't do to punish yourself for something arbitrary like the age you are when you realize things.
It just won't do.
The reason is, you've had enough punishment to last several lifetimes already, and you didn't deserve any of it.
So please, don't pile on more.
Violet, you were a wonderful, beautiful, innately intelligent and whole child. You still are, deep inside. And it's okay. You reach in and love that little girl, okay?
I do.
(((((((((((Violet))))))))))
Hops
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Dear Izzy,
I admire you so much for always having the generational, historical perspective.
You have so much wisdom and perspective.
I wish your little self had grown up with softhearted parents who held you in their arms and showed you the butterflies.
I didn't happen, but you're still in touch with the reality of beauty anyway.
That amazes me.
love,
Hops
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Hi Izz,
You remind me of Annie Proulx. (Your maturity, unflinchingness, and capacity for STORY.)
Hope you'll read one of her novels sometime and tell me how you like it.
xo
Hops