Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on February 01, 2008, 07:24:29 PM
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This article offers very helpful information re: communication skills, including alot of stuff I never learned,
as we seek to form and engage in healthy relationships.
Connecting as a couple: Communication skills for healthy relationship
by Angela R. Wiley, Ph.D.
Family Life Specialist, University of Illinois Extension
Associate Professor, Human and Community Development
University of Illinois
http://ncsu.edu/ffci/publications/2007/v12-n1-2007-spring/wiley/fa-11-wiley.php (http://ncsu.edu/ffci/publications/2007/v12-n1-2007-spring/wiley/fa-11-wiley.php)
(This is not just for couples, imo)
Here's one excerpt:
"Emotional communication,
that is, the creation of relationship-relevant meaning within a couple for purposes of connection,
is like the circulatory system of a relationship.
It allows meaning and sentiment to flow between partners. It is the system for paying attention to each other.
Gottman and DeClaire (2001) argue “[m]aybe it’s not the depth of intimacy in conversations that matters. Maybe it doesn’t even matter whether couples agree or disagree. Maybe the important thing is how these people pay attention to each other.”
What is the basis of healthy communication patterns?
Intimacy begins when a partner shares or communicates something personal and important to them and the other partner responds in an encouraging way. This sharing of something important does not have to be explicit or direct. Often it is quite tentative and subtle.
Recently, researchers have begun to understand that the mundane everyday repeated interactions that couples have are at least as important as their conventionally intimate interactions and their conflicts (Driver and Gottman 2004).
Couples need to pay more attention to their “patterns of emotional engagement and responsiveness in contexts other than conflict resolution” (Gottman et al. 1998, 20).
The basic units of emotional communication during everyday interactions have been called the bid and the response (Driver and Gottman 2004). These units are so important that researchers can now predict relationship outcomes by observing the bid-response patterns in a couple’s everyday interactions.
The bid is an initiation of interaction (Driver and Gottman 2004).
It is the way a person expresses “I want to feel connected to you,” although it may have an endless variety of forms and content. That is, bids are often not a literal request for attention and connection but may be ostensibly about something else. For example, a woman might say to her husband, “Honey, I had a bad day today.” On the surface, this is a statement of fact. It provides the husband with information.
The bid may be verbal or nonverbal. A bid may be extended nonverbally, for example with a touch (maybe playful or flirty), a facial expression (a smile, a roll of the eyes, or cocked eyebrows), or a sound (a laugh, sigh, or snort).
If the person chooses to connect by verbal means, the form might be a question, a simple statement of perceived fact, an explicit invitation, or a fragment of a thought or feeling. A bid can be laced with an emotional overtone using tone of voice, word choice, or expression.
The response is how the other person handles the bid. Besides the specific content, a response can communicate that the respondent is paying attention to and cares about the bidder. Intimate partners generally expect their bids to be met with understanding and empathy. In the example, if the husband simply responded “Thanks for the information,” the wife would be greatly disappointed and probably irritated. She expects him to respond to her underlying need for his support and attention. Something like, “Oh, I’m sorry, honey. What happened?” Responses can be characterized as turning toward, turning away from, or turning against the bidder (Driver and Gottman 2004). A partner who turns toward may acknowledge the other’s statement, make eye contact, or touch the other’s hand. A partner who ignores the other’s statement or averts eye contact is turning away. Turning against the other may involve active negative responses such as responding contemptuously to a statement."
In order to be consciously more aware of how I'm interacting with folks in my life, I think I'll start to keep a little bid/response journal of my own...
should be very enlightening!
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This topic is of interest to me because... well, my husband's behavior can often appear to be rather ADD.
Besides... just in general, I notice my nerves getting jangled when exposed to folks who hop, skip, and jump from one topic to another... and my husband is a master at that - lol.
Also, I can get really uncomfortable when I don't understand someone's meaning... or if I think that they don't really care about my response to something they've asked - - as though, they're only going through the motions of communication, passing time until their own next opportunity to speak.
Those are just a few general observations in light of the fact that I'm realizing now... all of the above can be communications stoppers for me...
And I am the only one responsible for them! If I allow them to colour my perceptions of another person (who may simply have her/his own different, unique style)... maybe I'm the one who's tuning out!!
So from now on, I'm committed to paying far more attention to these "bids" for emotional contact... to recognizer them for what they are and with an eye to the fact that a bid could be nothing more than a comment about the weather... and yet it's how I respond to that bid which may open or close the door to deeper contact. Will I receive it or reject it? If I'm stuck on my own personal requirements for how I define a meaningful exchange, then I am much more likely to reject it.
I also really like the next part of this article, from which I'm learning... and hope it may help others, as well:
Love,
Carolyn
Strategies for successful connection
How can partners connect in ways that enrich their relationship? There are many elements of successful communication. Researchers and practitioners agree that the following communication strategies are predictive of relationships that work.
Keep it clear. While they do not have to be verbal or direct, it is important that the emotional connection function of bids and responses be clear. Couple communication efforts can be ambiguous for different reasons:
there is a history of bids and responses being misunderstood or rejected
the partner is confused about what he or she feels and wants and so does not communicate clearly
the partner is not skilled at communication and does not know how to frame the bid or response and
the partner may want to connect with the other but may be too angry to communicate effectively.
Research has shown that those who are able to be clear about their underlying need for connection (an important function of the bid regardless of its form and content) are more likely to experience positive outcomes (Driver and Gottman 2004). The same is true for those who respond in ways that clearly support connection.
Keep it soft. Partners who master the ability to communicate “softly,” without being highly aggressive, contemptuous, or insulting, are more likely to get positive rather than negative responses. Those who use gentle humor and playfulness in their efforts and liberally sprinkle it throughout their interactions are more likely to have quality relationships that last (Driver and Gottman 2004). When most of a couple’s interactions can be characterized as having a soft-start up and using humor, their connection is generally strong even if they also are high in conflicts (Gottman 1993). This can provide a solid foundation for difficult times.
Keep it safe. The ways in which partners interact contributes to the emotional environment of the relationship. Healthy relationships require creating an environment of mutual care and validation (Coyne and Smith 1994). For example, being mostly engaged (as opposed to withdrawing), validating feelings and intentions, soothing, and unjudgemental in couple interactions are likely to create a safe environment where intimacy can flourish (Gottman 1994a). Honest, loving communication should be framed positively, without contemptuousness, blame, or sarcasm. Contemptuousness and criticism are highly predictive of relationship instability (Gottman 1994).
Keep it positive. A predominance of positive interactions is important if communication is to connect rather than isolate and alienate. A pattern of positive emotional interaction is built up over time (Fredrickson 2001). The amount of positive affect partners show one another, especially during conflict situations, is highly predictive of happy and stable relationships (Gottman et al. 1998). The emotional tone of everyday interactions seems to build a foundation for how positive couples will be during conflict (Driver and Gottman 2004). Generally, positive individuals care about how their partner’s day went and how they are feeling. They try to make their partner feel good about themselves. They try to be romantic and fun with their partner. When having disagreements, they attempt to be patient and understanding with their spouse and cooperative when resolving disputes. A positive response does not always mean saying “yes” or agreeing. But it does mean responding in an attentive way that is respectful of the other’s basic need for connection.
Gottman reports greater success in relationships where there is more positive bidding and more positive responding (Driver and Gottman 2004). A bidder who gets a positive response is more likely to bid again than one who does not. It is clearly a case where more is better (as long as these are positive). Those who are more attentive or mindful in their relationships are likely to have more success than those who simply allow life to flow unheeded around them. Attentiveness to personal needs allows one to clearly bid for a partner’s attention. Likewise, mindfulness of that partner’s needs means that the individual is able to frame bids positively and also engage in more turning toward responses to the partner’s bids for connection.
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Hi Carolyn hon,
I think sometimes it's easy to bang into another person's reflexive taking offense. And not realize that's what we're banging into, and feel a compulsion to fix it. To make it right.
That is SO hard. To just let misunderstandings exist.
I find that if I try to clear up every single one, I'd never do anything else.
And taking offense when it's possible to interpret things another way is a maladaptive thing that wounded people can easily confuse with healthy self-defense.
I have internal hissy fits sometimes. Sometimes they're grounded in true offense, other times my ego's on a rampage.
love,
Hops
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Thank you so much, dear Hops,
That was just exactly what I needed to hear. I do get overly anxious about taking responsibility for every misunderstanding and then trying to clear it up.
I also understand what you mean about taking offense... and how important it is to consider whether a thing might be differently interpreted. The thing is - - when it's involving someone with whom I'd really like to build a more solid, secure, basis of relationship, I tend to want something more than a doubt on which to build. But it's just like choosing battles wisely, I'm sure... just as vital to choose wisely the issues on which to attempt clarification.
Hops... mostly, it's that... when nobody before has ever really wanted to know you, it's such a leap to say - hey, you, may I show you who I really am? Yanno?
But I did that with you and it all worked out okay... for the most part 8) And you are welcome to hissy your fits my direction any time :D
Love to you,
Carolyn
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And here's a fitting quote, I think...
"If a word can be interpreted more than one way, it probably will be."
:)
Murphy's law on communication.
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Thanks for the food for thought. I am familiar with Gottman. But I need to contemplate this further, in view of the special circumstances surrounding the way that N's think about themselves and their partners, how they communicate, and very specifically, how one deals with an N's N-rage.
Discussions with an N are essentially futile. I don't like saying this. But is perfectly clear to me after years of attempted communication, and no real progress, around certain issues. The endless complaints about everything that the N doesn't like will NOT stop. After years of enduring the Chinese water torture of negative comments about everyting I do, think, believe, prefer... in short, everyting I am, I have taken matters into my own hands. I have stopped responding. In Gottman's words, I have turned away. The N consistently turns against me, and I have turned away as my default mode. I can turn toward, at times. But I am always ready to simply remain silent, and also walk away, as needed.
I listen to what is said to me. But I do not necessarily reply. I have disengaged. I know that talking with the N will eventually lead to his getting angry. That's the way N's are. Sooner or later, they have a fit about something. I have spent years watching the N during relatively happy times, always mindful of the fact that it was just temporary. Rather than continue in the nerve-wracking mode, constantly wondering what it will be that ruins our good time, I have simply stepped back. I do not get invested in the outcome of anything involving the N. Whatever the N wants to do will be fine. I may or may not join in. In any case, I will say little about it. The N can always have the last word, as far as I am concerned. By now, my thoughts are known to the N. I need not reiterate.
There will be no further discussion of "us." It makes no difference. The N cannot accept the idea that N's behavior could ever be a problem. Anything that goes wrong must be someone else's fault. So be it. It has been my fault for attempting to communicate with the N as if I might get a reasonable reaction, when I have known for some time that expect it or not, it's NOT going to happen. N thinking is not voluntary. It is automatic. My particpation is what is voluntary. I have opted out. Silence is golden.
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Hi, Confounded,
Thank you for your post! If I'm hearing you correctly, I agree with you that this info/approach might be irrelevant (or even dangerous) when dealing with npd.
At least with my ex-husband, it was dangerous... but then, I do believe that he is something more than N.
But either way, you have my absolute agreement re: the special circumstances surrounding the way N's think and communicate...
I know that N-rage well;
it has no ears...
but is utterly deaf to all but absolute flattery and worship.
You wrote: "N thinking is not voluntary. It is automatic."
And I definitely see what you mean. Makes me wonder, though, how npd manages to control it somewhat when under threat of penalty by undeniable authorities, such as the police.
Fear of punishment does seem to rein N in.
At this point, my own interest in this info (about effectively expressing emotion in communication) is more for general purpose use, in dealing with those who are probably not npd, but may
indeed present various other challenges. I want to be able to attempt communication even with those who are not necessarily "safe", yet who fall short of being "disordered".
Mostly, trying to get a handle on some of the grey areas, as I shake loose from old black-white thinking myself.
Since Npd-ex, I know that I've been highly keyed into the narcissistic and other difficult traits of people (including myself!) which make communication a struggle...
and so I want to try to practice moving beyond the stumbling blocks, with an eye to the fact that not all communication challenges involve people who are desperately personality disordered.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks for your input, Counfounded... looking forward to hearing from you again!
Carolyn
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Okay, Carolyn...
here it comes....
A HUGGY FIT!
(((((((((((((Carolyn))))))))))))) (((((((((((CAROLYN!)))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((carolynnnn)))))))))))))
Hops
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Hi Carolyn,
I guess I respond well to cagegorizing things. Having the bid/response interaction categorized is very appealing to me.
Thank you.
tt
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LOL oh, dear, (((((((((((Hops)))))))))) ... you made me croak out loud! lolol... umm... tt may appreciate the irony of this, as well... today I have... laryngitis! Not a sound that's intelligible shall escape my lips... but that laugh wouldn't be withheld... lol
thank YOU!!
Tt... I'm not sure to what I respond well, but this description clicked with me, so maybe we have something in common here, with this categorizing thing! Thanks for telling me... it helps!
Big pictures and categories... little details in categories... oh my, what a team... (((((((((((tt))))))))))))
Love to you both,
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
You may already know about Gottman's Love Languages. I find that concept really interesting, as well. Once you figure out what love language somebody uses, you can observe the meaning of their behaviors much more insightfully.
More generally, I find myself wondering how easily some people are able to "read" other people, from their clothing, knowing their occupation, little gestures, language, etc. We all "read" people. But I wish I had more training in this area. At the risk of sounding hopelessly naive, I admit that I was somewhat shocked to learn that police officers commonly lie. Lawyers know this. I did not. But then I thought how certain people, who want to exert their own authority on others, may self-select into police work, and may not allow a little thing like the truth get in the way. Not that all police officers would do this. But some certainly would. Kind of like not all priests are pedophiles. But some pedophiles certainly do self-select into that line of work, and other jobs where children and trust are plentiful.
As for N's ability to control N-rage when that rage might result in dire consequences, I think it's always just a matter of time. They can control it, for a period of time. But eventually it will build up to a point where they will get mad, again. In fact, if they are forced to control it, because the police are called, for example, they will have another thing to be mad about.
I find that the N has to sleep off the N-rage. Usually, it can't be set aside, and will not go away, until N wakes up the next morning. Then it's gone. But one knows that it's just a matter of time before it will return. Poor things. If they knew how fricking retarded they seemed when they were having one of their little N-rage attacks, surely they'd have to stop it, to save face. Oh that's right. They'd just get mad, again.
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Confounded,
Emotional communication with an N...............Oops there goes a pig flying past my window!!
I agree with every word you said. I have a real need for clairty in communication and will ask for clarification to avoid misunderstanding. My room mate has commented on how clear I am a number of times. I could Not communicate with Xn because he had no desire for communication or his desire for communication was to create confusion. Not communicating is the most healthy direction when it comes to Ns. Also, I have experienced the Nrage when I began to pull the threads apart and really hear what he was saying............. they don't like it when you reflect back their confused contradictory mess of words. In some ways I communicated too much, being honest in the hope of creating a safe space for us to communicate so he read me like a book and knew my vulnerable places. I also remember the next day!!! when he would wake up and everything would have passed...........well on the surface, Mr All Smiles would snuggle up with me but it was only a matter of time before the next attack happened.
With regard to people lying, well I think this is very interesting because I felt like this also. I could not believe that people would knowling distort the truth for their own satisfaction, sure I knew it in theory but No, I did not believe adults did this. That has been a big problem for me, trusting too easily. Most people IMO are decent but nobody deserves my trust until they prove they are trustworthy............. still shocked at how easily people lie......... which is always followed by the big WHY. Now I realise it does not matter why I just don't want to be around them.
hugs,
axa
Yuck, My God but it was sooooooooooooo crazy.
Axa
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Thanks Axa. What you said got me thinking... It seems to me that one of the reasons I'm findng it impossible to cut the strings, leave, divorce, nuke my life, start allover again, is that my H isn't a full-blown N. He is diagnosis isn't NPD, it's N tendencies. So he is able to communicate in a normal-enough way much of the time.
When things are going well, his outlook is, "I'm perfect. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :wink:". But when he's at the crazy end of his range, his outlook is, "I'm perfect, and now I'm really mad, because you just said something to the contrary." Hard to leave the nicer side of him. Hard to stay with the crazy side of him.
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Hi, Confounded,
The Love Languages concept/book with which I'm familiar is by Dr. Gary Chapman, in the context of learning how to best show love/appreciation for someone by identifying his/her love language (i.e. verbal affirmations, acts of service, etc.).
Within a "normal" relationship, I think that stuff is very helpful, but NPD does not fit that bill... :S
And I dunno about reading people... I have a hunch that many folks might think that they're good at it, but alot of that has to be based on stereotypical presumptions, doesn't it? But I know what you mean... like about the police officers lying - - I, also, was always so naive as to accept a positive stereotype about law officers.
I guess maybe the moral is - toss aside all sterotypes? As a general guideline, they may provide some useful hints, but I can also see the dangers.
About the rage, my ex was generally very passive aggressive in displaying that, until the end... when I really believe that it was only his fear of the law
which prevented him from physically destroying me. Besides, he was primarily a cerebral N... you know, the sort who prides himself on his superior intellect... heh.
fruit loop.
Those temper tantrums N is having... the ones that don't stop till he's slept them off... is he willing to consider medication to level off some of his mood symptoms?
I'm just wondering how he handled his diagnosis of N-tendancies, C... does he know? And how long have you two been married?
If you've covered all of this in previous posts, I'm sorry... I don't recall and have to leave in a bit here... just I really relate to your "hard to leave the nicer side of him".
I understand.
Ex would never admit his possible need for mood stabilizers or undergo a thorough psych eval.
If he had been willing to consider that... we might have been able to remain together.
As it was, he continued in his aggressive spiral downward to the point of putting me in fear of my life.
When I acted on that fear and had him removed from our home by the law, he filed for divorce.
Hugs, Confounded... I'm sorry it's so hard. I hope you'll keep posting, because that seems to help draw out the points which need to be addressed... the ones that can get lost in the tangle while in the midst of N stuff.
and ((((((((Axa)))))))))
and ((((((((Bean)))))))) ugh, don't get me started on ADD tendancies... lol.. what you described with the directions is an everyday occurrence here :)
Love,
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
You are quite right about Dr. Gary Chapman. I am sorry to say that all of this stuff, Chapman, Gottman, etc., seems to have been through the blender in my mind. I wasn't planning to require this much information about relationships. I watch my H expend lots of energy on acts of service (his language), all the while sprinkling the day with his complaints about everything related to me, which hurts me in my language (words of affirmation). He has no clue, even though we were both exposed to Chapman's Love Languages by our first (of three) counselors. I have a clue, but no real plan. This was supposed to be my GOOD second marriage, the one that went really well...
Yes, H is aware, technically, of the N tendencies diagnosis. But in his mind, everything must be someone else's fault. So the diagnosis is without merit from his point of view. Either there is no problem, or and I am the problem.
It's fairly messy stuff. H was a widower, whose first wife is said by people other than H to have been extremely passive and depressed. Evidently, she was not very bright (died of colorectal cancer, which is exactly what the EPA advises one to expect if one grows tomatoes in the puddled run-off from a lawn treated with the ultra-toxic chemicals they used). I don't really know what she experienced in their marriage, since H is not a reliable source of information about his reality. I do know that H has reported instances of his raging at her when she did things he didn't like. I also know that a neighbor who is a high-level pro in the field of psychology told me that H's first wife broke down crying in the front yard one day, when asked about the family's plans for Halloween. She regarded H's first wife as being an extremely depressed woman, and given her training I figure she ought to know.
The point is, H has been married to two very different women, and I gather that BOTH of us have suffered some very deep psychic pain. In the early years of our 5.5 years together (4.5 married) H used his first wife's memory to hurt me, by comparing me to her when he and I disagreed. He can't do this anymore, as I actually checked that out, and learned that others painted a rather sad picture. So that tactic no longer works with me. For a time he used violence to try to scare me into submission. The police came twice. The second judge told him that he did it again he was going to prison. He has never done anything like that since. As you have noted, fear of legal consequences changes N's thinking about his options. On this level, I note that there has been progress. The times when he can see into his craziness and laugh about it are real progress.
He still continues to turn his anger on me, as he did his pathetic first wife. Sometimes I think of him raging at her, such a weak person, and it makes me feel worse for her than I feel for myself. It is clear to me that he really did prefer his first wife over me. Basically, he assumed that I was going to be the new and improved version of his first wife (she was his first and only GF, prior to me, so lack of any other relationship experience contributed to the absurd assumption). He was going to marry me, and his life was going to be just as it was before his first wife died, only better! In me he found a brainy MBA (he's also an MBA), fit, successful, refined, and responsive to his touch. Much better! That is, until I had an opinion... One of the first was, "Why did you plant tomatoes there? You can't grow those there. The water full of toxic chemicals runs off the lawn, and pools at the base of the plants. That will end up in the fruit. It's toxic. It will kill you." To this he answered, "We have always done this and nothing happened." The dead wife didn't even cross his mind, and actually it hadn't crossed mine immediately. I just knew it was a terrible idea. When I realized that there very well might be a connection... I felt so bad for the first wife. She had no clue. I had to do a whole research project, including calling the people at Scott's to prove to him that it was a bad idea. In the meantime, I took photos of the pooled water, removed the plants, and threw them in the garbage. But this was the first of many instances where he had no clue, and basically freaked out when I gave him one, on a silver platter.
Bottom line, he wants to dominate, but he doesn't have the stuff. I have no real need to lead. I'm very happy to follow the lead of somebody with a better idea. I love being around people who know more than I do. I actually joined Mensa, partly to add credibility to my opinions in the ridiculous arguments that I used to get into with H. In the professional world, I got used to having people interact logically with me, seek my opinion, bring me their problems for solutions, and I delivered.
We're kind of a weird match. He wants to be in charge, and never hear that he has it wrong. But he married somebody who's actually a bit smarter than he is, and who needs to be valued for that intellect. I'm not tall and blond. I speak no other languages. I play no musical instruments. I am accustomed to being valued for my mind, and my mind threatens him because I know things that he doesn't know. I feel so sorry for him. He makes a complete fool of himself.
He used to play a video game in which he was the ruler of the world, called Civilization II. I threw it away, because it seemed to exacerbate his N tendencies. In the game all who approached him bowed down, showed absolute deference, etc. Here in the real world, we (my daughters and I) find him to be a little lazy, a bit of a laggard, and prone to forgetfullness. Based on this, the idea of him being in charge of a kingdom is absolutely laughable. He hates this, although on some occasions, when his N isn't activated, he agrees. He wants me to get him a new Civ II disk on eBay. No way. As harmless as it might sound to some, I am sure that putting that back into his life would be enabling his mania. I got rid of the first disk, replaced it on eBay in a moment of weakness, and then got rid of the second disk. I have never, and will never, replace it. When one of my kids started imitating Yu-Gi-Oh! acting like a fierce warrior who could slice me in half with her imaginary sword, all the Yu-Gi-Oh! stuff went bye-bye too. I know. She's a little girl and he's an adult (or so it says on his driver's license). But the situation is the same essentially, and somebody has to be the grownup around here. Unlike the N, I can examine my own feelings, and I am concerned that a tiny part of my reason for taking it away may be punitive, which is not good. Since it is not the primary motivation, I will just have to keep it in mind.
I think that he would like it if I would just die, and he could start over with somebody else, somebody who could never activate his insecurities. For myself, I just want to be married to somebody who appreciates me. Being faulted for my strengths is so horribly painful. I feel trapped. Too hard to leave, the status quo wins out.
So I have withdrawn. But this is no real solution. I am stuck. I need to get a new job (I work from home and that is a terrible situation for me). I feel afraid to apply for jobs. Fear of rejection, fear of screwing up, fear that if I get a great job he will use my financial status against me in a divorce. All of these are exaggerated fears, as none of them are very likely. I am having a hard time keeping my fears from overriding my logic. I have become more introverted in this relationship. It is difficult for me to make myself reach out to people now. Plus, again as someone who is actually in touch with my own motivations, stupid as I may find them to be, I am aware that on some level I don't want to strive for a great job, because that would benefit my H. He is against me, so I don't want to do anything for him, even if that decision is bad for me. It's just a tiny factor, but one which piles on with the rest, the fears, and I can hardly do anything.
Thanks for listening to me. I need to get my sh*t together. I am wasting my life...
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The basic units of emotional communication during everyday interactions have been called the bid and the response (Driver and Gottman 2004). These units are so important that researchers can now predict relationship outcomes by observing the bid-response patterns in a couple’s everyday interactions.
The bid is an initiation of interaction (Driver and Gottman 2004).
It is the way a person expresses “I want to feel connected to you,” although it may have an endless variety of forms and content. That is, bids are often not a literal request for attention and connection but may be ostensibly about something else. For example, a woman might say to her husband, “Honey, I had a bad day today.” On the surface, this is a statement of fact. It provides the husband with information.
The bid may be verbal or nonverbal. A bid may be extended nonverbally, for example with a touch (maybe playful or flirty), a facial expression (a smile, a roll of the eyes, or cocked eyebrows), or a sound (a laugh, sigh, or snort).
If the person chooses to connect by verbal means, the form might be a question, a simple statement of perceived fact, an explicit invitation, or a fragment of a thought or feeling. A bid can be laced with an emotional overtone using tone of voice, word choice, or expression.
The response is how the other person handles the bid. Besides the specific content, a response can communicate that the respondent is paying attention to and cares about the bidder. Intimate partners generally expect their bids to be met with understanding and empathy. In the example, if the husband simply responded “Thanks for the information,” the wife would be greatly disappointed and probably irritated. She expects him to respond to her underlying need for his support and attention. Something like, “Oh, I’m sorry, honey. What happened?” Responses can be characterized as turning toward, turning away from, or turning against the bidder (Driver and Gottman 2004). A partner who turns toward may acknowledge the other’s statement, make eye contact, or touch the other’s hand. A partner who ignores the other’s statement or averts eye contact is turning away. Turning against the other may involve active negative responses such as responding contemptuously to a statement."
In order to be consciously more aware of how I'm interacting with folks in my life, I think I'll start to keep a little bid/response journal of my own...
should be very enlightening!
This is great information. I read about some of the underlying research several years ago. The researchers can predict the outcome of a marriage based on 15 minutes of taped conversation. If an interaction pattern for a couple is not 80% positive the marriage is in danger of dissolving.
Given the idea it takes 80% positive interactions to make a good relationship, what kind of percentages do we get in our relationships with N's?
I tried analyzing the pattern of interactions with my father, and it worked out to around 10% or less positive for me. It sure opened my eyes to hidden dimensions of the relationship.
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Given the idea it takes 80% positive interactions to make a good relationship, what kind of percentages do we get in our relationships with N's?
I tried analyzing the pattern of interactions with my father, and it worked out to around 10% or less positive for me. It sure opened my eyes to hidden dimensions of the relationship.
Wow. You got the data. How did you set up the experiment? Did you bid (say something engaging) deliberately? Did you always let your father make the first move? Did you try to interact in whatever way happened? Other details? This is very interesting...
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Confounded.
I read with interest your post about your H. I don't know if you know about my "relationship" with XN but in some way it mirrors your experience. I do think Ns thrive on depressed fragile women and if they find one who is not like that they will do the best to turn you into one. This is my experience. Xn's xwife had mental health problems, she had psychotic episodes - according to him, and I think this is true, was severly depressed and eventually left him and her children. What I did not realise at the time I was hearing this story was that, and I have no doubt of this, she may have been fragile/depressed but he certainly contributed greatly to her condition. He asked for my opinion on her when we first me, having descriped her behaviour, which I thought seemed completely disassociated.......I suggested she may have experienced some abuse..............WAS I RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! When he met me I think I was such a wonder to him, the opposite to him in many ways, outgoing, upbeat, clear etc..........the longer I stayed with him the more I became depressed, had to struggle with holding onto any self esteem.
He read the literature on NPD and agreed that this is what is "wrong" with him. Now he has a perfect excuse for his behaviour well "I am not normal" so now he has permission to behave in any way he likes. I was unemployed when I left him, had moved etc and I have done so well. The energy I spent trying to stay ok around him was incredible and only when I dumped him did I realise how much life he had sucked out of me.
His xwife, who is rather devious also, went back to him so I guess they are playing out their sado/machocist roles. I have no pity for either of them as they both colluded in my abuse. For you Confounded, I know there is so much available for you. I understand you are where you are right now but maybe considering a little fantasy of an Nfree life might prompt you to allowing what might be possible in. I don't know if any of this makes sense because I am so exhausted but I wanted to respond because you post was familiar and I wanted to you there is life after Ns............ mine, even with the blips, has turned out pretty nice.
Hugs to you,
axa
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Dear Confounded,
No doubt I am projecting, but this guy sounds horribly familiar... so here is my absolutely unprofessional and unguarded opinion:
I'm not so sure the toxic veggies were an accident and I don't think he's as dumb as he might appear to you at times.
He sounds like a cerebral N with an extra helping of sadism... and I think he's playing a very elaborate game, all the while thinking that he's pulling the wool over your eyes.
Yes, NPD will pretend stupidity. Really.
Please be very cautious.
With love,
Carolyn
P.S. Tjr! That's amazing. Ten percent sounds about right, yes.
On edit: C, I came back to this, thinking of softening the tone, because I know how it sounds.. but then I read your complete posting again and I must leave it. This is a deadly person about whom you're writing... that's what comes through to me.
It's a very real concern to me that you wrote:
I think that he would like it if I would just die, and he could start over with somebody else, somebody who cold never activate his insecurities.
That feeling is coming from somewhere, and I don't think it's your imagination. At the end, my ex lovingly sharpening a buck knife in my kitchen and there was no question in my mind what he wanted to do with it.
Also I wanted to tell you that my ex-husband had a history with those ridiculous games, especially those where he was the supreme ruler and could not be questioned... some pretty bizarre stuff, really. I went through the same scenario - tossing the game, replacing it in a moment of weakness, tossing it again. Didn't matter. As I'm sure you know, you can't keep him out of that mode by refusing him a game disc... he will find another way.
I just can't help but think that he's the cat and you're the mouse here. I do not doubt your intellect... but there's nothing like npd in devilish craftiness and the manipulator, especially, absolutely thrives on catching you off guard.
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Thanks to both of you, axa and Carolyn. I find it quite a relief to talk with people who "get" the whole N thing. Most people think that N's are very conceited, and essentially secure in their own self-worth. That's incorrect. People who are secure don't flip out when somebody points out a tiny little error. They assimilate that info, and thank the person for the taking the time to provide it to them. N's can't deal with it. Their egos are as fragile as a butterfly wing. Poor things. If one is wrong and fails to admit it, then one is wrong twice. That's no way to live. It's sad.
I may not have been clear about the toxic tomatoes. H ate them too. Why he didn't get colorectal cancer is a mystery, since he has a family history of the disease. H's first wife saw to it that he had a colonoscopy at age 45 because of his family history, and no problems were found. She didn't have a colonoscopy, because she had no family history and at age 45 insurance wouldn't pay for it. If she had gotten the same screening test she got for H, they would have discovered her cancer. By the time she had symptoms, she was doomed.
The toxic tomatoes were just the dim-witted practice of a couple that couldn't get much right. (I'm not kidding, they also planted a redbud tree with the root ball still wrapped in nylon mesh. The roots fought their way out of the top of the non-biodegradable bag, sprang up out of the ground into a gnarled mass, and still run away from that hideous root knot across the surface of lawn to this day. I could go on about the long list of other stupid things they did. But I'll spare you.) H really believed that whatever they did was just fine, and I was just waaaay too picky. My own detailed explanations, based on prior study, made no headway. H was unaccustomed to being around a woman who knew so much and he hated being informed of simple facts. I had to provide him with proof every time, in order to get his agreement. It was hugely frustrating. He now concedes that it was not a good idea to grow tomatoes in ultra-toxic chemicals (so toxic that one isn't supposed to allow them to tough the skin, as it causes liver cancer, forget about eating the stuff!).
After a few years of this, I have gotten to a point where I just do whatever I want. I don't explain much at all now. He doesn't care about learning anyway, or at least he cares more about not being told that he has been doing something wrong. The good news is that my H's stupidity tends to be of the genuine variety. No, wait; that's the bad news.
On a couple of occasions I have discussed all of this with H's mother. She advised that H's father was the same way. She didn't use the words pigheaded and bad tempered, but that was the gist of it. She told me that she simply ignored him when he was like that. I have tried to avoid that tactic. But now I find that it's most effective.
When dealing with N'ish behavior, my tool belt has only the following: ignoring him, responding with one-word answers, walking away, letting him have his way, letting him have the last word, making him think that what I want was his idea, avoiding him, or being super nice to him, like nothing is or was wrong, to keep him happy (not grumpy/raging). BTW, when he's not grumpy/raging he often tries to let me have what I want. It's his agitation that I seek to avoid. I find myself in a sort of motherly role, almost as if he were a toddler.
There is NO point is discussing our relationship, nor his behavior, in an adult way. I am able to get him to be more polite, say "please" and "thank you" and so forth, if I say what mommies say, "How do you ask?" He knows the answer. It's "Please." He doesn't like being reminded to say it. But I don't like being asked to do something without a "please" included. It's common courtesy. If I say it on the phone at 11 a.m. he will have gotten over it by the time I see him in the evening. He's such a good boy, and so cute too. He does such a good job at work. (Mommy's) so proud of him.
If anybody out there knows of other ways, beyond those listed above, to keep N's from getting agitated, or to avoid them when they are bent out of shape, I welcome your advice.
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I get the picture, Confounded... and I'm so sorry.
There's no way humanly possible to prevent N-agitation, I don't believe... because it's self-generated and would occur even in a vacuum (physics will prove this one day :P). I suppose it could be reduced by a practice of holding one's breath alternated with intermittent worship and consistent agreement with anything N says, no matter how ludicrous. Oh, and never smile, or laugh, or enjoy yourself in any way, shape, or form unless prepared for the punishment which will follow.
Absolute detachment and prayer... that's what I tried. Then he pulled a knife and the rest was his doing. Just please be careful.
Carolyn
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Gosh----This thread is upsetting!!!
Confounded, you sound very insighful about your situatiion. Ami
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Sorry to be such a bummer. This search for strategies is taking me into territory I never thought I'd travel. Thank you all for your help.
I have noted some high levels of concern. I do keep my eyes open for risks. The risk aspect that worries me at this point is the stress. I think that it's taking its toll. To address this we are in the process of building a workout setup in the basement. H is doing most of that work.
This doesn't fit my H at all:
Oh, and never smile, or laugh, or enjoy yourself in any way, shape, or form unless prepared for the punishment which will follow.
I wonder if this is a distinction between the full NPD diagnosis and H's N tendencies diagnosis. What H wants is for me to be calm, smiling, happy and accepting at all times. He wants me to reflect back to him an image of him as the perfect husband, lover, father, intellect, worker, leader -- all perfection, all the time. If I tell him something as minor as, for example, that a sentence requires a different word in order to be correct, he just hates it. It's like a disruption in The Force for him.
Sometimes I think it might be interesting to count the number of perceived slights he can endure before he gets into a rage. I am pretty sure that it works that way. He rages. Then it's out of his system, and he feels kind of bad about it. So he's on good behavior. Then something happens that agitates him slightly (he's given a request that he doesn't like, or in a tone that indicates he has forgotten something, or somebody says something negative about him or anything related to him, somebody disagrees with him, somebody makes him wait, etc.), it seems to be like a little chit goes onto his mental scale. One, two, three chits won't tip the scales. But eventually all those little chits, or one big one, pushes the total to critical mass. The scales are tipped and he's going to have a hissy fit. Poor baby.
He got used to bossing his first wife around. I don't take orders well, especially not from somebody who generally can't keep up with me. I'm a reasonable woman, and I work well with others. But when he starts bossing me around like a big dumb man, he finds that he has a tiger by the tail. He used to call me a "women's libber." But he stopped that about two years ago. I think that after I told him 3,674 times that it made him sound like an @sshole he decided that he needed to stop it. My attitude can be pretty gender-neutral (I like the Vulcan way of thinking). Perhaps he has actually learned to treat me with some respect. I don't know and I hardly care at this point.
I'm just trying to get better at managing this problem, so that I can live my life without so much turmoil.
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Hi, Confounded,
I'm about to be very direct (I hope) and so please know that I don't intend any offense....
One thing is striking me above all, in your descriptions of this man you married, and that is the level of contempt which you're holding in your heart toward him.
Have you considered the effect that your attitudes toward him are having on your daughters?
I have three girls and wouldn't want any of my children to think that a man is some thing - an object - which she needs to learn to manage within a marriage context. (Wouldn't want my son to think the same toward women, either, of course.)
Carolyn
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Dear Confounded:
In reply to your post can I just tell you that there is NO way of having a relationship at all with an individual who has NPD. I am assuming your husband is NPD. Yes? In any case from the way you describe him, it sounds like it to me.
My exNH was diagnosed with the disorder, (prior to which diagnosis I did not know what on earth was going on), and eventually I got to the point where I no longer cared. All I needed, badly, was to get out of that toxic atmosphere, and recover myself. The psych who diagnosed him gave me that advice, in the strongest terms.
I will go so far as to say that you are describing my exNH. I would also advise caution.
You cannot deal with a person who has NPD. Nothing you say or do, or don't say or do will make a blind bit of difference. All it does is drag you down, and cause unhappiness the like of which you would never know.
Take care
Hermes
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Okay, I hear you. The only thing that works is distance, and more is better.
You know, I don't think contempt is really where I am at this point. It's more like pity. If I put myself into that place, where every bit of factual information that disagrees with what I have in my head must be warded off, at all costs, I know that I would be pathetic. Contempt? No. Disappointment? Yes. Sadness? Definitely. But mainly pity. His sense of himself is so weak and tenuous. It must be scary to feel that every differing fact is an attack, and to accumulate the those blows until he feels the need to counterattack. It's like being possessed by demons, tilting at windmills. It is a form of madness. How could I not feel sorry for such a person?
Hermes, like you I could not figure out what this was. Our second T was the one who laid it on me, finally, when H refused to see him anymore (all we did was go in there and fight). I asked him, "What IS this? This inability to admit that he's wrong, when it's obvious that he is?" The T said, "H has NARCISSISTIC TENDENCIES." I said, "What's that?" Like so many others, I thought of narcissism as something along the lines of a conceited sociopath. Not. The T explained a little about what N's experience, the fragile ego, especially stressing the fact that the N rage can be very dangerous, and that N's NEVER change. (OMG!)
The T went on to tell me that his own father had N tendencies, and to comment that he couldn't imagine why H's first wife stayed with H, unless she needed a meal ticket. I took all of that as a pretty strong indication that the T himself had big personal issues involving his N'ish father and his mother. I asked him if he was telling me that I should leave H, and he told me that only I could make that decision. But his opinion was clear, as were his issues. THEN he told me that our therapy sessions were finished. When I said that I was going to need some help getting through this, he told me, "No. You can call me if you need me." With that, having dumped this gigantic thing in my lap, he terminated my therapy. He seemed to be trying to destabilize the situation, which read as trying to break us up because of his hatred for his father. This was clearly malpractice, driven by his own issues. I didn't file a complaint because I had bigger fish to fry. I set about finding a real pro, whom we saw for a while. He had a super-positive attitude and he seemed to "get" me. I found it helpful. But my vulnerability to being affected by H's N rage remained.
I have only recently deployed the strategy of diminished communication. For a supposed genius, I can be pretty slow to come around. H's mother, my mother, and probably all three of the T's that we saw told me that walking away from an argument with H was my best strategy. I felt that walking away would be a) too weak a ploy for a modern woman, and b) insulting to H's intellect (if I gave up on discussions with him, that would be saying that he couldn't work his way through a logical argument). Now, I can see that insulting or not, he CAN'T remain logical. He is invested in maintaining the illusion that he can't be wrong, even if nobody (and I guess this may include him) actually believes it. It is not an insult to acknowledge the Truth.
I think that the factor that is making all of this even more difficult for me to deal with, and for you to differentiate, is that this isn't a full NPD diagnosis. It's some watered-down form of this syndrome. I was feeling rather unfortunate, since my first H (also MBA, plus JD) was revealed as being a philandering pathological liar, with ADD and sociopathic tendencies. (Why me? Am I a magnet for weird people, or are most of them weird?) I asked the T what percentage of the population has some kind of serious diagnosis. He said, "Fifty percent." Did I have one? "No. Maybe a touch of N, and a touch of OCD. But nothing unusual." Okay, back to the bad news. Fifty percent of the population has something going on that's weird enough to warrant a diagnosis. That means that Grandmother was right. She always said, "If you get rid of one man, and get another man, you just trade one set of problems for another set of problems." I am not up for an endless string of flawed relationships. I think that I have to believe in my own ability to manage, especially now that I have finally wrapped my mind around the concept of diminished communcation. H has been telling me for years to shut the h*ll up. Guess what? He was right. When he's in one of his moods, his mind is closed anyway. I am not here on this Earth to waste my time trying to force it open.
As for the next generation, I hope that their view of all of this will enable them to start younger and try harder to "read" people better than I have, manage their relationships more deliberately than I have, and be more aware of the high probability that any given person is probably very strange once you get past the facade of normalcy.
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Dear Confounded:
I suppose, at the end of the day, you and only you can decide how much of this you can take. Perhaps your H does not have the disorder, NPD. Does that really make a difference?
It is what YOU want that matters. An abuser is an abuser is an abuser. You can try to close off from it, but I know from experience that it just did not work.
I don't know what your options are, but no doubt you will be doing some serious thinking.
All the best
Hermes
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Wow. You got the data. How did you set up the experiment? Did you bid (say something engaging) deliberately? Did you always let your father make the first move? Did you try to interact in whatever way happened? Other details? This is very interesting...
Hi Confounded. I have to admit up front my experiment wasn't very scientific, especially since I was fully involved in the process. I have a degree in social science so I am always conscious of possible biases and the ways I could be deceiving myself. I just tried to interact "normally" with my father on a several day visit and then made note of each interaction and whether it struck me as negative, positive, or neutral. I had just read the Patricia Evans book on verbal abuse before this visit, which had given me new insight into covert verbal abuse. Corrections, counterpoints, discounts, "Yes but" statements, e.t.c.. all count as at least mildly negative responses. After the end of the visit I tallied up my notes and was shocked at how little positive interaction occurred over the visit. Although he rarely is blatantly abusive, 80%-90% of the interactions are at least mildly negative or covertly abusive. The counterpoint is his favored mode of response to most comments from others, even if he contradicts himself constantly.
It's been hard to spot the pattern because much of the time the underlying topics seem trivial. For instance, my father loves to do counterpoints about the weather. I say "the weather forecasters are calling for snow tomorrow". He replies "weather forecasters are wrong all the time, so no sense listening to them". A sane person isn't going to get into an argument over this, so he gets away with a minor stab.
I have known for decades how drained and depressed I felt after spending any time with my father. But it is only in recent years I started really understanding the pattern. 10% positive interaction just doesn't make for a good relationship.
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Confounded,
Please and Thanks...........XN had NO manners, his rudeness was unbelievable....... had forgotten that, thanks for reminding me.
xxxxxxx axa
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((((((((((Confounded)))))))) hugs to you. I hear you.
And this is pretty much my rationale, too:
"any given person is probably very strange once you get past the facade of normalcy"...
but there's strange... and then there's utterly, maddeningly, destructively impossible.
I do trust that you'll know beyond any shadow of a doubt when/if it reaches the latter stage.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Thanks again to all of you. The help you provide is much appreciated.
tjr100, I really like your data collection method, letting it flow naturally, and counting negative, positive, and neutral interactions. 10% positive makes your dad sound like quite the sourpuss. It's too bad for him. He has to live with himself 24/7. I wonder what happens if you don't respond to him. If he remarks that weather forecasts are worthless, and you don't say anything in reply, do you know what he does?
He seems to be deliberately attempting to engage you in a potential disagreement. If you just go about your business, and don't say anything in reply, he fails to engage you. Ignoring is a rather passive-aggressive tactic. But it allows one to take a stand of self-preservation, "I'm not going to allow you to suck me into your negative b*llsh*t." You stop them from stealing your time for their asinine purposes.
I have decided to call this the Doctrine of Diminished Communication. It's working well, and I find this to be extremely ironic. The conventional wisdom is that relationships function best with more and better communication. When dealing with N'ish types, this simply isn't true. The situation goes best with less and very selective communication. The key is to remember that it is futile to engage in discussion with somebody who is exhibiting that negative N'ish behavior. If something is said that warrants a response, that's great. If it doesn't get through the BS filter, no response, just as if it were never said. On to the next thing, something you WANT to do.
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I have decided to call this the Doctrine of Diminished Communication. It's working well, and I find this to be extremely ironic. The conventional wisdom is that relationships function best with more and better communication. When dealing with N'ish types, this simply isn't true. The situation goes best with less and very selective communication. The key is to remember that it is futile to engage in discussion with somebody who is exhibiting that negative N'ish behavior. If something is said that warrants a response, that's great. If it doesn't get through the BS filter, no response, just as if it were never said. On to the next thing, something you WANT to do.
I love it - the doctrine of diminished BS is apt, too! :D
That's the truth, Confounded, and one which I didn't exactly "learn", per se, but rather managed to achieve through sheer exhaustion... lol.
But for me, that was back in the day, you know... the dreaded day of the NPD ex. Here in my present, there are a few folks with whom I definitely need to remember and apply that same lesson... and the way you've phrased it, I know that I can! I won't even consider it to be ignoring the individual... simply ignoring the BS! What a way to aquire a built-in BS-o-meter, eh? ((((Confounded)))) I wish you and your girls so much health and wellness.
When the police finally got my ex out of our home, my youngest, my son, said it was like a shadow had been removed from our lives....
just some food for thought.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Thanks again to all of you. The help you provide is much appreciated.
I have decided to call this the Doctrine of Diminished Communication. It's working well, and I find this to be extremely ironic. The conventional wisdom is that relationships function best with more and better communication. When dealing with N'ish types, this simply isn't true. The situation goes best with less and very selective communication. The key is to remember that it is futile to engage in discussion with somebody who is exhibiting that negative N'ish behavior. If something is said that warrants a response, that's great. If it doesn't get through the BS filter, no response, just as if it were never said. On to the next thing, something you WANT to do.
I think this is a great insight and I love the term DDC. :D It seems we are all conditioned into a conventional wisdom which encourages self blame. If things aren't working out, we should try harder. It's a subtle trap. Since we appear to be the more conscious party to the relationship (having studied these issues) then it's up to us to push for more and better communication. The other party has a "mental illness" and thus escapes responsibility.
How much responsibility do we really have in this kind of situation? In my case all the FOO members live multiple states away, and under the best of circumstances I probably am not going to have much contact with any of them. So it doesn't seem to me there is much sense in pushing for more and better communication. I pretty much go for "diminished communication" while also being more assertive when I do get caught in one of these negative interactions. For instance, I might try to calmly remind my father the weather forecasters may not be right all the time, but their information is probably better than nothing. It kind of catches me in another level of game playing, but no answer is perfect.
I find since I increased my assertiveness in response to his BS, he has moved into a "diminished contact" mode of his own, which is fine by me. We were already down to nothing but small talk (such as the weather) and now we don't have much contact at all. I realize I have to seek my real communication elsewhere.
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Hi, tjr,
I'm just now getting back to read your posts more thoroughly and wanted to thank you... so sorry I just skimmed them before. Especially appreciate the info re: corrections, counterpoints, and discounts within communication.
None of it has reached an abusive level, by any means, but each one of us within our household has one or more of these conversational habits... and it's usually comical, but I can definitely see how it could become an annoyance. 16 yo daughter is mistress of the counterpoint/correction combo, son, the 12 yo future attorney, does the but buts, and I do the correction to my husband's counterpointing... lol... or something like that. Anyway, it's weird to recognize, through your description, what it is we're actually doing. And seriously, my husband (Mr. Positive) often feels that I'm being negative when I suggest possible negative ramifications to one of his proposals... oh boy. So... I think maybe I'll get Patricia Evans' book and give my style an overhaul.
Our families are all quite distant, geographically, as well... and most of the time, I'm sure that's a real blessing. But still, it's hard not to feel the loss when you can't have a genuine, down-to-earth, intimate conversation with those who are supposed to be closest to you. I'm sorry... I know it's painful. Like you said, my parents are not generally outright abusive, but there is simply no meeting of the emotions... or minds, really... it's just all about them. And at ages 87 and 80, I sometimes feel really sad that I didn't know some of this alot sooner... yet I doubt whether it woulda made much difference as far as changing them.
Thanks again.
Carolyn
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Hi C
Just a few thoughts, the fact that T said your H had N tendancies, does not mean that he does not have NPD. You H sounds so like my X and trust me he has NPD. I understand that you do not want more of the same relationships but what I figured out was that unless I changed that was what was going to happen. Working hard on the changing of me and not in a relationship which is actually quite nice. I think, bottom line is, he is not going to change. I think, as it stands, a lot of your energy is taken up defending against him with stratagies, observing and trying to keep things under control. I guess I got sick of living like this C. It was like taking care of a very destructive child who was hell bent on causing problems. I do think only you can make your decision but I am left thinking of what you could do with all the wonderful energy you have if you were not using it up on a narcissist.
Hugs,
axa
p.s. With X I thought I knew how nasty he would get, I had no idea......... glad you got out too Carolyn
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None of it has reached an abusive level, by any means, but each one of us within our household has one or more of these conversational habits... and it's usually comical, but I can definitely see how it could become an annoyance. 16 yo daughter is mistress of the counterpoint/correction combo, son, the 12 yo future attorney, does the but buts, and I do the correction to my husband's counterpointing... lol... or something like that.
Yes I've also found these concepts result in sometimes humorous and sometimes disturbing realizations. It seems everybody does these things to some degree. As long as there is a good positive core to the relationship, quite a few covert mistakes are tolerable. For these situations, the term "abuse" is probably too strong. Maybe "socially unconscious negative habits" or something like that?
There is a point at which it shades into more active abuse. I have pretty much discontinued a couple of casual friendships in recent years because I am more aware of abusive patterns and got tired of 90% counterpoint responses. I notice some of the more N-ish people are very skilled at throwing out a positive bone or two before lapsing into the more abusive behavior. They ask a couple of questions to make it appear they are interested in you, then they sink in the fangs.. An ex-friend would always ask me how I was doing, and about the family, maybe even something about my interests or recent activities, then he would plop down and talk non-stop about himself for an hour straight, counterpointing or discounting anything I had to say.