Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Bella_French on February 08, 2008, 04:46:48 PM
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Sorry if this is bit off- topic, but my partner showed this to me yesterday, and it made me giggle:) Its a satircal article entitled `How to write and epic fantasy novel' and I'd thought I'd share it, for some entertainment. (I know we have some writers here too!)
It also finally opened my eyes a bit, regarding why I feel a bit `Blah' after reading fantasy novels (I am a big fan). I get hooked into the stories and characters, but I can never identify with the female characters.
Now I know why!
Heres the Satirical article anyhow:
Ever since "The Lord of the Rings", epic fantasy novels have been high on the bestseller list. Every thought of writing one?
WELL HERE'S HOW.
Structure
1. Create a main character.
Most of the people who read your book will be unconfident males. So make your main character a Loser. Aimless, shy, cowardly, guilty, ill, lazy, rural - any of these will do.
2. Create a Quest.
Out of the blue, the Loser must be suddenly told that the fate of the whole world – or some other world - rests in his incompetent hands. To save the world he must perform some task, confront some nameless foe, learn some mysterious skill etc.
3. Create a Motley Bunch of Companions.
The Loser/Hero must have a Motley Bunch of Companions drawn from different human species e.g. dwarf, elf, Rotarian etc. Each of these companions will have one particular skill such as sword fighting, lasso twirling etc which will come in handy at a particular part of the story.
4. Create a Wise but Useless Guide.
The Guide is wise adviser who knows all about the Quest, but never fully reveals it. He also appears to have immense powers but will not use them when they are most required.
(See Part 7: "Make it Long.")
5. Create the Land
The first thing the Motley Bunch must do is travel some phenomenal distance through an assortment of vastly different terrains and climates. All Fantasy Lands have every conceivable form of climate and landform - mountains, deserts, swamps, glaciers, forests - arranged randomly across the landscape contrary to any known principles of geography or ecology.
Note: All fantasy worlds are roughly square. i.e. the shape of the double page of a paperback.
6. Create the Enemy
Every Fantasy Land has a Dark Enemy, an almost omnipotent ArchVillain who is trying to utterly destroy it. It is not clear how the ArchVillain benefits from this. This Villain always has access to vast armies which require no food, payment or other provisioning and can travel thousands of mile and lay siege to cities without any need for a catering corps. For all this, the Enemy is completely dependant on some insignificant object such as a ring or a piece of rock for his power.
7. Make it long.
The important thing about an epic fantasy novel is that the reader must be exhausted at the end of it. They must feel that they have overcome as many obstacles in getting through the book as the heroes have in fulfilling the quest. So the book must be as difficult to read as possible. To do this:
(a) Tell the story in incredible detail. Describe every day of the journey, how far they walked, what they ate, the weather, where they slept, especially days where nothing happens.
((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Fill every dramatic situation with lengthy introspection. At every moment of crisis the hero must minutely examine his feelings, perceptions, identity, whether he left the gas on etc.
Never take the easy way out of a crisis. For example, if the Wizard Guide holds great power, he will never use it to solve a situation.
If Wizards and Lords actually used their magical powers they wouldn’t need the Loser/Hero to save them and the book will be over in a hundred pages. So, although wizards can bring trees to life, summon spirits from earth and sky, they have to use guile to defeat the stupidest .oO(ooops).
At the same time you will need to find ways to:
8. Skip the hard parts.
Despite the need to keep the book long, some bits are just too hard to write. A thousand mile journey by foot is long, but easy to write. Battles on the other hand are hard because there’s a lot going on and you probably require some knowledge of military strategy. So if you’re writing a battle scene and it’s just getting too hard, simply have the hero suffer a wound and lapse into unconsciousness: e.g.
"… then suddenly his head exploded and a mist enveloped him and he felt himself falling down into an ethereal tangible blackness. Badcolds’s sword, still swinging through the air, seemed caught, imprisoned in time. The sound of the battle was suddenly a long way away but just as he closed his eyes and the black cloud engulfed him he thought he heard someone crying from the grassy knoll, "The Toasters are coming. The Toasters are coming."
Voile. Next thing our hero wakes on a white alabaster slab in the Healing Room where the Pure Maiden Warrior (see "Characters" below) tells him that the battle is over and, Guess what? They won! Result: you've saved 50 pages of intricate military description.
For other difficult plot points such as Impassable Mountain Ranges see "Caves" below.
9. Lead up to a cataclysmic battle.
Although the Enemy’s powers are magical, for some reason he must always try to defeat the good guys with good old fashioned hand to hand combat. No matter how much magic power a wizard, king or queen has, they will always end up charging around a battlefield slashing away with a sword.
10. Kill almost everybody.
The Loser/Hero must achieve his goal, gain the power, discover the secret word or whatever only at the last possible moment when all seems lost. To do this it will be necessary to make him fall down and twist his ankle, have an identity crisis, become enchanted etc continually on his way to the goal. Most of the Motley Bunch must die in terrible pain and degradation before the Loser/Hero gets his act together. This is to keep us mad at the Enemy, thought it is basically the Loser/Hero's fault for being so slow and incompetent.
Okay. Now let’s look at some other key points.
Bad Expendables.
It will be necessary to create Bad Expendables. These are the orcs, goblins, trolls, dragons, wights or any other creatures that we are happy to kill in their thousands. They are usually black, hairy, sweaty or in some other way unacceptable by middle class Caucasian standards. Often they are deformed, based on the traditional belief that an ugly body reflects an ugly soul. It is our way of doing a service to the sick and disabled by reminding readers that people who are disfigured look that way because they’re evil.
Note that in Fantasy Lands the concept of reform or rehabilitation is unknown. All allies, minions, vassals and instruments of the Enemy must be summarily killed even if they served their master primarily out of fear.
Tough Old Warriors
All fantasy novels must have an elite brotherhood of highly trained, pathologically loyal, hereditary fighters. These are invariably sturdy, sullen and have livid scars, one eye missing, only one arm etc. Contrary to reality, the more injuries they bear, the greater their fighting skills.
Pure Maiden Warriors.
Losers are scared of sexuality or dependency in women, so women in fantasy novels are so powerful and pure they make Joan of Arc look like Paris Hilton. They are strong, noble, loyal, brave, high-bred and usually die in the end – well what else are we going to with them? They’re too scary to marry, and no one in Epic Fantasy Novels ever has sex.
Body Types.
Skinny people are wily and intelligent, big strong bear-like people are invariably dumb.
Character Names.
To make Character Names, just run some nonsense syllables together until it looks like a foreign language. If they are unpronounceable they will be seem even more authentic. "Y"s, "H"s and apostrophes add an exotic feeling. Words like "Dn’a’brht", "ynhazzmhn", "jbreheh’m" are all acceptable.
It is a good idea to throw in a few names which are just normal English words combined randomly: "Rusk Montana", "Heron Alibi" or "Ermine Dayglo".
Technology
Fantasy Worlds always have inexplicable gaps in their technology. They are ruled by councils of venerable sages who are the guardians of the accumulated learning of thousands of years and yet have never got around to inventing anything that might actually help them against wights, trolls and orcs - such as a .44 Magnum. Many Fantasy Worlds possess fine metal working, word-working and the ability to make crossbows, catapults and elaborate secret trapdoors but have no wheeled transport.
Note: Fantasy Worlds never have working economies. Very few people work, there is little agriculture and it is not clear where food comes from.
Magic
When wizards shoot blasts of magic at each other the Good Wizard's fire is always blue, and Bad Wizard' is always green or red.
Dwellings
There are three sorts of dwellings in fantasy novels – caves, huts and castles.
Caves are the fantasy writer’s best friend. They are the locations for hidden weapons, centres of wisdom, hide-outs of monsters etc. They require very little description and can be joined together to make a labyrinth. As in Hollywood, all caves have flat floors.
Caves are also useful if you find you have written yourself into a corner by creating an insuperable geographic obstacle such as an Impassable Mountain Range etc. This can be simply solved by taking the Motley Bunch of Companions underground. When they emerge from the tunnels- after days of walking in pitch darkness - they find themselves miraculously on the other side of the Impassable Mountains or whatever. The writer has also saved writing fifty pages of detailed description.
Huts are always in remote locations. Anyone who lives in a hut is simple and good.
Castles are always "hewn from the living rock" whatever that means. Rooms in castles are almost completely bare with a minimum of decoration.
The Enemy's Stronghold.
The Loser/Hero must eventually penetrate the Enemy's Stronghold. This is never particularly hard to do. Stronghold sentries are never alert and Loser/Heroes can always approach to within 20 feet of the most heavily guarded installation without being detected.
Even the most heavily fortified stronghold always has small unguarded side door where the garbage goes out. Once inside the Enemy's Castle there is only a smattering of people walking casually about. The Loser/Hero will be able to penetrate right into the Enemy's most inner sanctum without being detected.
Note: the Enemy's fatal flaw will always be that he is over-confident.
That's all you need to know.
So get writing and start your career as an Epic Fantasy Novelist today.
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Interesting topic thread, Bella
My goodness........ The Pure Maiden Warrior
I have read fantasy novels in the past, and likewise, no interest whatsoever, in the female maiden character.
i.e. Lord of the Rings and a few others, and the games, with friends childen.
Leah x
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Bella,
Love it!
tt
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Dear Bella,
Having read through the entire listing/article guideline
I am amazed just how true to form it is written ...
"All those who live in huts are simple and good" made me smile.
Leah x
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Thankyou for reading it TT and Leah,
Bad Expendables.
They are usually black, hairy, sweaty or in some other way unacceptable by middle class Caucasian standards. Often they are deformed, based on the traditional belief that an ugly body reflects an ugly soul. It is our way of doing a service to the sick and disabled by reminding readers that people who are disfigured look that way because they’re evil.
A lot of `reader conditioning' goes into novel writing. I think I would doing myself a favor by being more selective about what I read, lol.
x bella
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Dear Bella,
After I watched the Trilogy movies of Lord of the Rings
I have not touched one since.
What you have highlighted just now, I had picked up on.
With regard to the X-Box Games and PS2 Games, I do wonder, if children's minds, today, more than ever, are being brainwashed with this stuff, I think, and wonder, as to the effect in real life.
Leah x
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1. Create a main character.
Most of the people who read your book will be unconfident males. So make your main character a Loser. Aimless, shy, cowardly, guilty, ill, lazy, rural - any of these will do.
2. Create a Quest.
Out of the blue, the Loser must be suddenly told that the fate of the whole world – or some other world - rests in his incompetent hands. To save the world he must perform some task, confront some nameless foe, learn some mysterious skill etc.
Wow. I've known some men who seem to have gone overboard with the fantasy novels and games. This describes their personalities perfectly. I guess the fantasy stuff is compensatory for their real world problems.
There's always something new and enlightening on this board.. :)
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Well, I have to dissent here. I have read Tolkien"s novels, a very long time ago, long before any films were made. I rather enjoyed those books. And I don"t think my mind was corrupted in any way by them. Fantasy is fantasy.
Doesn"t anyone read just for entertainment any more LOL.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello to all:
I must be dense tonight, no kidding. Just trying to work out what difference between the books and the movies. I know a movie does not always contain everything that is in a book, due I suppose to time constraints, among other things.
Maybe it is just that I do not delve too deeply, all the time, into such things. Maybe it is just me.
All the best
Hermes
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I just viewed this thread as a pleasant change from discussing narcissism and other such stuff.
As in a book reading group where one gathers, as I do, and discuss around the table, as it flows.
That's all really.
Have read the books, watched the movies, and in particular, was thinking of the X-Box Games and PS2 Games appertaining thereof.
Thanks Bella
Leah x
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I love discussing books too, Leah! All opinions are very welcome:)
I haven't read Tolkien, but I just finished a 10-novel series by Terry Goodkind; it very much followed `The formula', lol.
I found an author I'm loving at the Moment named `Neal Stephenson'. I think he's one of the best authors I've encountered, in all respects. I also like a bit of Tom Robbins and Dean Koontz. (I wish i knew more good authors!)
X bella
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:) love books :) Leah x
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So do I...love books, since I can remember.
Bella: one of my favourite authors is your Australian, Patrick White. I think his "Eye of the Storm" is an extraordinary book.
I am not that keen on "the formula" books, and I know what you mean.
It is said you can tell a lot about a person by the books on their shelves. LOL. Maybe so.
Best to all
Hermes
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We grew up on Patrick White, Hermes, in school. I'm not sure if I've read `Eye of the Storm' but I'll check it out. I love book recommendations!
X Bella
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Hi Hermes,
Doesn"t anyone read just for entertainment any more LOL.
Yeah, I read here!
Being a little filip there! :D
tt
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Hello Bella:
Well, see what your opinion is of the Mother in the book. It is a very penetrating study in any case.
We had a thread here a short while back, in which each poster could mention books, movies, etc. that s/he liked. There were lots of books mentioned on there.
I only wish I had more time to read, and read!
All the best
Hermes
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:D Lollie :D nana-nana-boo-hoo-to-you :P
Not read a Harry Potter either, nor watched any of the Potter movies.
And the only superbowl I have seen is the one with the dishes in! :lol:
Leah x
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Dear Hermes, I read every night, before I go to sleep. Sometimes the books are so good that I'll read after work as well (which has been the case lately).
I'm reading a lot of well researched historical fiction at the moment, and I tend to like biographies. I read one about the guy whp first climbed the most difficult route to the top of mount everest, and it was fascinating hearing all about such a person's life (and missing digits, lol)
I do like fantasy, thrillers, and also cyberpunk literature (which is sort of fantasy). Pretty much the only thing i won't read is romantic fiction, which makes me ill, lol.
What happened to the `book recommendations' thread? I would have enjoyed that one!
X bella
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Dear Bella,
Moives - Books - Music
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6856.msg110265#msg110265 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6856.msg110265#msg110265)
Leah x
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Thanks so much Leah!
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Hello Bella:
I would not read romantic fiction if I was given money to do it! No wonder women get unrealistic ideas of life and love from those books LOL.
I have to confess that in general I prefer male authors. That will probably not make me too popular LOL.
Hugs
Hermes
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Hello Hermes,
My favorite authors are in the main, male.
I never read romantic fiction.
We are very alike, in that I too, appreciate platonic male company, especially, in the reading group.
And have an egalitarian worldview.
Leah x
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Speaking of books, on a whim, I picked up "The Little Prince." I hadn't read it since I was twelve, I remembered it fondly, but had forgotten the story. Whoa! What a powerful, rich little book that is. DD asked me about it, ad I ended up reading the whole thing to her in one sitting. I dare you to read that book aloud without getting all choked up!
Hi Lollie,
You've got me now! I shall simply have to grab a copy from the library next week, and report back! :)
Hugs,
Leah x
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I hope you don't mind this topic going on a tangent, but I feel emotionally `safer' around men too. They tend to be very `light' and `on topic' in conversations, and I am a little afraid of intimacy with women in real life. I have never been able to quite get it out of my head that at the end of the day, the wrong female friend will take everything I've got if she can get to my partner. So I am wary about who I give that power to. Men do not `threaten' that part of my life.
I tend to read more male authors, but who knows, maybe Stephen King is a woman, lol. I wouldn't know for certain:)
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Dear Lollie,
Giggle:) Yes, he might not win the beauty contests (but if I could write like that, I wouldn't care about my looks, lol)
X bella
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Lol Izzy. I don't know ANYONE who reads for reasons other than for their own entertainment, and I don't know anyone who only reads to impress others. Is that uncommon in your experience?
I generally find reading as a hobby less common than, say, watching TV. I enjoy meeting other people who read:)
X bella
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Very interesting thread, Bella. Thanks. Still have you in my prayers and thoughts about your F. Still 'know" he is OK. Love Ami
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Well, I have to dissent here. I have read Tolkien"s novels, a very long time ago, long before any films were made. I rather enjoyed those books. And I don"t think my mind was corrupted in any way by them. Fantasy is fantasy.
Doesn"t anyone read just for entertainment any more LOL.
I also read the Tolkien books a long time ago and don't think they corrupted me. But if I was corrupted, would I know it? :lol:
It seems to me it's like most everything, a matter of degree, balance, and moderation. There is a hard to define point at which recreation shades into abuse. I've known adult men who devote 99% of their off hours to fantasy books, movies, games. Of course I didn't know them very well since they were so preoccupied, so who am I to judge? :)
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Hello Bella, and all:
Well, I am not really a fantasy fan, but there is one woman writer (now in her eighties and still writing), an American, I like: Ursula Le Guin. "The Left Hand of Darkness", is an unusual, indeed poignant book.
Best to all
Hermes
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Pure Maiden Warriors.
Losers are scared of sexuality or dependency in women, so women in fantasy novels are so powerful and pure they make Joan of Arc look like Paris Hilton. They are strong, noble, loyal, brave, high-bred and usually die in the end – well what else are we going to with them? They’re too scary to marry, and no one in Epic Fantasy Novels ever has sex.
Body Types.
Skinny people are wily and intelligent, big strong bear-like people are invariably dumb.
Hi Bella,
I find it interesting that the 'big' or 'bulky' perhaps, characters are considered to be dumb.
There was a recent public survey reported in the tabloids, of which, stated that anyone above a certain size, was considered 'dumb.'
I do sometimes wonder as to why folk think this way?
Leah x (not skinny!!) :)
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I have no idea, Leah. LOL.
Mere stereotyping, I suppose. But it is true that, despite legislation to the contrary, employers will if they can, take on the slimmer/fitter individual than the more oversized one. Maybe it goes back through the long corridors of evolution, to when everyone dwelt in a dangerous and hostile world . One had to be lean and fit to hunt, and to survive by being able to out-run the bear.....
All the best
Hermes
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""""Social effects of attractiveness
When a person is seen as attractive or unattractive, assumptions are brought into play. Across cultures, what is beautiful is assumed to be good. Attractive people are assumed to be more extroverted, popular, and happy, and attractive people do tend to have these characteristics. However, this is probably due to self-fulfilling prophecy; from a young age, attractive people receive more attention that helps them develop these characteristics.[33][34]
Physical attractiveness can have real effects. A survey conducted by London Guildhall University of 11,000 people showed that those who subjectively describe themselves as physically attractive earn more income than others who would describe themselves as less attractive.[35] People who described themselves as less attractive earned, on average, 13% less than those who described themselves as more attractive, while the penalty for being overweight was around 5%. Another study indicated that physical attractiveness in men plays an even larger role for salary than it does for women, contributing as much as 40% to earnings. It is thought that these figures are similar around most of Europe, including France, Germany and Spain. It is important to note that other factors such as self-confidence may explain or influence these findings as they are based on self-reported attractiveness as opposed to any sort of objective criteria; however, as one's self-confidence and self-esteem are largely learned from how one is regarded by their peers while maturing, even these considerations would suggest a significant role for physical appearance.
The discrimination against or prejudice towards others based on their appearance is referred to as Lookism.
Many have asserted that certain advantages tend to come to those that are perceived as being more attractive, including the ability to get better jobs and promotions, receiving better treatment from authorities and the legal system, having more choices in romantic partners and, therefore, more power in relationships, and marrying into families with more money.[36][33][34]
Both men and women use physical attractiveness as a measure of how 'good' another person is. However, in terms of sexual behavior, some studies suggest little difference between men and women. Symmetrical men and women have a tendency to begin to have sexual intercourse earlier, to have more sexual partners, to engage in a wider variety of sexual activities, and to have more one-night stands. They are also prone to infidelity and are more likely to have open relationships.[37] Symmetrical men and women are also best suited for their environment, and their physical characteristics are most likely to be inherited by the next generation.[38][39][40][41]
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That sounds about right, Hermes. I'm not sure if I've mentioned this to you Hermes, but my partner completed his psyche degree a couple of years ago. In his last year, they did quite a few studies along the lines of this topic.
One study he brought home was similar to the one you just posted. A test group were asked to interview a range of beautiful and non-beautiful people. The test group did not know this, but the `non-beautiful' interviewees were selected for possessing `good' character traits, such as talent, performing charity services, success, empathetic styles of communication etc. And the `beautiful' test group were selected for their `looks' only.
The interviewers were asked to make `character assessments' of the beautiful and non-beautiful people they interviewed. The results were that the beautiful people were invariably assigned `magical qualities' pertaining to their character which did not in fact exist, whereas the non-beautiful people did not receive recognition for their `positive character traits', although they had been specifically selected because of those traits.
There many more studies like that one, but this one really stuck out.
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Thank you Hermes and Bella,
Most interesting indeed.
Leah x (plain jane) :)
PS >> Just wondering, do you have a recommended website, for info? Thank you.
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Dear Leah,
As much as all the statistics annoy me, and reflect some of my own experiences, I believe that there a plenty of people who reject those ideas about beauty. I think the stats reflect the fact that a statistically large portion of the population is really not very bright and easily brainwashed by current social `norms''.
I am not attracted to such people, so its not a huge deal to me. I wouldn't want to work for a `not very bright' boss who would feel threatened by my intelligence, or in job where my value is based on looks (which would put a premature expiry date on my career)
Plenty of guys who admire beauty will still choose a woman they can trust over a woman overly concerned with attracting men. I think a lot fo men would be downright frightened of such a partner, lol.
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Dear Leah,
As much as all the statistics annoy me, and reflect some of my own experiences, I believe that there a plenty of people who reject those ideas about beauty. I think the stats reflect the fact that a statistically large portion of the population is really not very bright and easily brainwashed by current social `norms''.
I am not attracted to such people, so its not a huge deal to me. I wouldn't want to work for a `not very bright' boss who would feel threatened by my intelligence, or in job where my value is based on looks (which would put a premature expiry date on my career)
Plenty of guys who admire beauty will still choose a woman they can trust over a woman overly concerned with attracting men. I think a lot fo men would be downright frightened of such a partner, lol.
Dear Bella,
Oh, so there is hope for me then! :)
I so resonate, with accord, all you have just shared.
Thank you.
My exNH was always telling me how lucky I was to have him
as I was a "plain jane" and he would compare me, unkindly.
Hugs,
Leah x
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I agree with you Bella. There is more to beauty than meets the eye. Indeed there are many women, or men, who are not "handsome" in the accepted sense of the word, but they have something, they have "it". I think the studies in question refer more to evolutionary perspectives.
And there are many people who are handsome, and intelligent, and that's all right too. I have no problem with a person, man or woman, being beautiful. Many are also very nice people. You can admire beauty, and still also see the other aspects of the person, their personality. Some people have a lovely face, some have a great figure, some have wonderful hair, there are all kinds of aspects.
I do not think a beautiful person is necessarily overly concerned with attracting a man or a women, although some may be. Many beautiful women, or handsome men, simply attract.
Men might well be turned off by a woman who is overly concerned with attracting, whether she is beautiful or not.
LOL. My exNH used to say to me, sourly, that the only man he would leave me in a room alone with was my own brother. LMAO.
Hermes
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Lol, Leah, My NPD- ex would do the same, but I was actually very beautiful at the time. You can never be beautiful enough for an N and avoid criticism.
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http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.psych.57.102904.190208
School of Psychology, University of Western Australia, Crawley, Perth, WA 6009, Australia; email: gill@psy.uwa.edu.au
▪ Abstract What makes a face attractive and why do we have the preferences we do? Emergence of preferences early in development and cross-cultural agreement on attractiveness challenge a long-held view that our preferences reflect arbitrary standards of beauty set by cultures. Averageness, symmetry, and sexual dimorphism are good candidates for biologically based standards of beauty. A critical review and meta-analyses indicate that all three are attractive in both male and female faces and across cultures. Theorists have proposed that face preferences may be adaptations for mate choice because attractive traits signal important aspects of mate quality, such as health. Others have argued that they may simply be by-products of the way brains process information. Although often presented as alternatives, I argue that both kinds of selection pressures may have shaped our perceptions of facial beauty.
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I do not think a beautiful person is necessarily overly concerned with attracting a man or a women, although some may be. Many beautiful women, or handsome men, simply attract.
Men might well be turned off by a woman who is overly concerned with attracting, whether she is beautiful or not.
Hermes
I agree Hermes; not all beautiful people are concerned with attracting people, but I would say that a great number most definitely are, and that is why they make the effort to be regarded as beautiful.
`Beauty' is a fashion term, IMO. Very few people naturally fit into the `fashion' without making quite a bit of effort, by way of diet, surgery, drugs, clothing, makeup, demeanor, & excercise.
I have seen this quantifiedl statistically, in a book by Naomi Wolf she wrote in 1996. Her stats showed that 90% of `beautiful women' fall into the category of having to perform major, conscious modifications to their natural appearancer in order to be beautiful, some of which is dangerous and life threatening.
I found that interesting.
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Hello Bella:
Well, the truly beautiful do not need surgery, that is for sure. I know lots of naturally beautiful women, they have not had surgery. I think the person who has had surgery becomes immediately obvious, or pretty much.
I think it is good to look after one's appearance, to keep as fit as possible (if only for health reasons), a little makeup does no harm, a good haircut by a good hairdresser. Certainly, I would treat myself to those, with no qualms LOL. I think diet is important, I think it is important to avoid obesity, because of the health risks involved. Exercise is important, for the same reasons. Good posture is important. I am not into buying clothes for buying sake. But I like to be well turned out, and in any event I have to be at times because of meetings and such like. I do not have to make a huge effort in that sense, I am fortunate to be slim, naturally (have never dieted in my life).
IMO a certain sector of women will probably take as gospel what they read in "fashion" magazines. The rest will use their common sense.
All the best
Hermes
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Hi Hermes,
I can understand Hermes, I expect that a great many people share your feelings:)
Stereotypical or `conforming' type of appearances do not impress me; I've travelled too much around the world to take any one stereotype to heart. What is ugly in the west is gorgeous somewhere else, and its an eye opener, to experience the subjectivity first hand.
After one trip to Asia, where my pale skin, blonde hair and size 14 hips were regarded as sublimely beautiful, I decided to give up my insecurity complex. But I am still highly aware of the western attitude. I am `ugly and invisible' in Australia. But I can say that without taking that onboard as my identity. 4 hours away, by plane, I am a Goddess. What a head trip!
So the surgery thing does not sit so well with me, but I can understand that people want to fit in, and feel less fearful. I think people should travel more. Especially Americans, lol.
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That is right, Bella. Travel broadens the mind LOL.
I have to say I have never had an insecurity complex. ExNH did his best to try to get me to have one, but he did not manage to do so LOL.
But it is evident that many do have. Plastic surgery has become hugely popular over here too, people spend vast sums of money, forgetting that they are still basically the same person inside. They have done T.V. programmes on the topic. So you see a woman enthusiastically going for the face-lift that is going to change her life (she looks fine the way she is BTW). What she forgets is that the face is going to make no difference, because you can see that her posture is not good, and her image problem will still make her hunch her shoulders, face lift or no face lift.
I just dunno. People do very strange things. LOL
All the best
Hermes
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I write fantasy. I've also been reading it since I was about 8.
Most fantasy, especially Tolkein clones, are intended for boys aged 13-20. That's often why there is a "formula" type approach to fantasy. Many of the fantasies that are very popular right are written with a formula, in fact. The stereotypes don't really bother me. There are novels out there that break the stereotypes, but you just have to hunt for them.
Fantasy is one of the hardest genres to break into, even though it's very popular. The things that do break the sterotype often don't sell very well.
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Dear Hermes, its a bit confrontng seeing cosmetic surgery take off here in Australia, too, so I can relate to how `strange' it is seems. I now have school friends who've chopped off parts of noses and chins, and they were pretty, popular girls at school! It all seems like a losing battle to me. I think they probably don't have very good boyfriends, lol.
X Bella
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Dear Tayana:
I would agree with you, though I suppose that the Tolkien books were written with both adults and children in mind. Certainly, there are novels (fantasy) that break the mould. I think Ursula Le Guin writes those.
Over here, in Ireland, we were brought up on fairy tales and ghost stories. I thought it was great fun, and I actually have collections of ghost stories.
I saw J K Rowling being interviewed the other day. Good for her, I say! She was quite poor, a single mother, living in pretty dingy quarters, but she lived, and made, the dream.
All the best
Hermes
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Personally, Bella, I think a lot of women are their own worst enemies LOL. Not a popular view, but there you are.
Women do these crazy things to impress OTHER WOMEN. I swear.
Hermes
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I write fantasy. I've also been reading it since I was about 8.
Most fantasy, especially Tolkein clones, are intended for boys aged 13-20. That's often why there is a "formula" type approach to fantasy. Many of the fantasies that are very popular right are written with a formula, in fact. The stereotypes don't really bother me. There are novels out there that break the stereotypes, but you just have to hunt for them.
Fantasy is one of the hardest genres to break into, even though it's very popular. The things that do break the sterotype often don't sell very well.
Tayana,
How do the publishers know what gender reads Fantasy? And why write for only half of the potential market, rather than all of it? My guess is just as many women read/ watch fantasy (judging by the general awareness amongst female of LOTR and Tolkien), because they adore it, but they have to endure insulting gender representation due to lack of any other choice.
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Bella,
I'm not sure why publishers market to that age group, especially when a fair number of women read fantasy. However, that is the general market. It's roughly the same market that comics are marketed to. Historically, that's the fan base. Publishers aren't interested in demographics or genders. They are interested in sales. So because that's the group these things are often popular with, that's the group they market to. Most of the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Warcraft, etc novels are written with a particular formula in mind, and they are marketed to that age group.
Ursual LeGuin has written fantasies very different from the mold. I particularly liked Mercedes Lackey at one point. She has some great female characters, but I think I outgrew her work after a while. Marion Zimmer Bradley, C.J. Cherryh, Andre Norton and there are several younger authors who've followed in the same vein introduced "strong" female fiction. These are not the Tolkienesque clones however.
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It makes sense to me, Tayana. The more money at stake, the more certain industries seem rely to on `traditional proven formulas' rather than exploring the modern market place.. A lot of those `old formulas are from the days before women even had the vote, let alone economic independence. It seems out dated to me.
Hollywood probably suffers the worst, because of the costs of film making. Its hard to take risks and adapt to modern day markets, when the old formulas and stereotypes worked. But they still managed to do it throughout all genres, even the traditionally male oriented ones like sci-fi.
I guess publishing is `behind the times'.
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Yes, Tayana. I understand what you are saying.
Many years ago I read Ursula Le Guin"s "Left Hand of Darkness", which was most unusual way in the way it dealt with gender.
Hermes
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"Left Hand of Darkness" is often hailed as a masterpiece in the way it deals with gender and breaks stereotypes.
If you get a chance, check out "Ill Met By Moonlight" by Sarah Hoyt. It has a great twist on the gender thing. THere are three books in the series, but the first is the best.