Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on February 08, 2008, 07:38:33 PM
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Yesterday I was wondering why everytime I have some contact with N saint (hear of her slander of me or hear of her work that now mirrors my work) I go digging for info on Narcissism. It is as if I need validation that the pain is not all me --- the head spinning mess or wake of pain the N leaves in our lives is senselessly understandable.
That is why I have been posting so much stuff on N's these days. N saint shows back up and now here I am -- spinning, wondering, is it me, or is it her? Just like last summer when I was left in a daze wondering what just happened, I feel like I have been attacked by the predator in cloak disguise!
This article was super validating:
The Malignancy and the Narcissism
Most people find out nothing about narcissists until they get destroyed by one and go searching for answers on the bizarre incident. Before they learn more, their idea of a narcissist is of a person with a sky-high opinion of themselves, period.
They associate narcissism with self-love (which never made sense to me) and with grandiosity, haughtiness, snobbishness, megalomania, thinking you're just IT – God's gift to the world.
But most narcissists don't inhabit an environment in which they can let that all hang out. In fact, most of the narcissists I have known did not come off that way at all. Therefore, you usually won't notice the grandiosity in a casual acquaintance who is a narcissist.
That's because narcissists have subtle ways of sending their subliminal messages through their behavior and treatment of you.
For example, I'd hate to admit how old I was before I realized why my father threw his road rages. Duh! How could I have been so dense for so long? I suddenly realized that he was doing that to make us stop talking to each other in the car and pay attention to him. He couldn't stand our paying attention to each other, so he had to stop us and silence our conversation and make us focus our attention on him (and whatever his yanking the car around was liable to crash us into).
It wasn't till I'd caught on to a few of these tricks that I noticed the common denominator – that these were attention-getting behaviors. Behaviors designed to deny anyone else any available attention.
He wasn't even smart and he had a dozen sneaky ways to routinely get attention without you realizing what he was up to. But he was just being more subtle about it than than the blathering female narcissist who just yaks at you at 90-miles-an-hour for 3 hours without pausing for a breath. We can't help but see that she is a glutton for attention, but he, just as big a glutton for attention, flies beneath our radar.
And you can see why a man devises sneaky tricks to command all available attention and deny you any: being a jabberbox would get a man laughed in most worlds. But a woman can get away with it.
It's the same with narcissists' grandiosity. Most use sneaky, subtle ways to aggrandize themselves.
Therefore, the average person's idea of a narcissist is very misleading.
I am always somewhat puzzled when authorities on the subject and others talk as though that is what bothers people about malignant narcissists.
I suppose that if you're somewhat narcissistic yourself (and I don't mean that in a bad way – I just mean that if your personality is toward that end of the spectrum), you are going to be irritated by a narcissist hogging all attention and denying you any.
But, first, I don't think that most people are like that. And second, I doubt any normal person (narcissistic or not) is bothered that much by the grandiosity. It's silly, pathetic, so how can it make you angry? I bet people with narcissistic tendencies just immediately dislike and avoid malignant narcissists.
I can't say when, but it was at a very young age – probably around the age of 8 or 9 -- that I began to view my father as pathetic. It was like I was the adult, and he was the child: I had to cut him some slack, because he just wasn't strong enough to quit bolstering his ego at our expense. He needed a lower set of standards, poor thing. I viewed his Big Man act as silly folly.
I bet this is generally true – that children catch on to the essentials much sooner than we adults realize.
All I know is that I didn't mind him paying no attention to us. I know it cheated and hurt me in many ways, but his negative attention was so offensive that I was just glad to be left alone by him.
What bothered me was him picking a fight with my mother every single day. That and all the other malignant stuff.
I bet that's generally true too. People who have had to take a narcissist mind the malignance in malignant narcissism, not so much the narcissism.
If you marry a malignant narcissist, and he or she can get others into the sack, your narcissistic spouse WILL be a serial cheater. He must prove that you have no control over him. That you and your marriage mean nothing to him. He fears relationships as ropes that tie him and therefore must betray every bond of good faith.
That's a lot worse than putting up with his grandiosity.
If you work with a narcissist and do a better job than him, he must get you fired and ruin your career so that he is better than you.
That's a lot worse sin than grandiosity.
In fact, Pathological Envy is his middle name. I knew a narcissist once who looked at others with hatred for being well when he was sick. How's that for malignant?
Narcissists will hate you for just being happy, because happiness is something they cannot have. So, they will make you unhappy, as unhappy as they can.
Narcissists will hate you for your virtues, especially the ones that stand out in contrast to their own flaws. And they will have to fix that by spreading vicious calumny about you.
Grandiosity is nothing compared to the malevolence in that.
Just look at that list of things they do so far. All are ways of destroying someone or something. That's the common denominator. That's what malignant narcissists are – destroyers. (Which reminds me of the cry of the Apocalypse to "Destroy the destroyers!")
THAT'S what's important about malignant narcissists. What they do to people is no minor matter.
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Dear Lise,
I think that you are facing the truth about N--more and more. S/times we think that we are out of denial about N and we find that there are more understandings we can get and more denial to lose.
It really hurts. I remember how painful it was to come out of denial about my M. I would read Vaknin's book and sob.
This is how I see it , anyway, Lise.
Love Ami
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Yesterday I was wondering why everytime I have some contact with N saint (hear of her slander of me or hear of her work that now mirrors my work) I go digging for info on Narcissism. It is as if I need validation that the pain is not all me --- the head spinning mess or wake of pain the N leaves in our lives is senselessly understandable.
Gabben - that stuff is absolutely crazy-making. It makes you crazy that this person can violate every kind of ethic and sabotage you - successfully - by the fruits of lies. It is INSANE. And it will make you insane - if you let it. Thank heavens you have an exceptional T who experienced what you experienced and validated you. That validation is definitely key and I am so thankful that you got it.
It is not surprising that you keep going to look up Nism. You've reexperienced the N violation, yet again by revisiting it. It touches and stirs up that original wounding. I am sorry that you have this. You are doing so really good things. You are finding ways to minimize your reactiveness. That is so important and so difficult.
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I do the same thing. IMO, I need to research on narcissism because deep down I recognize that I am naive and I tend to fall in the same traps again.
So, when I read about N, I am looking for some validation (that most often we didn’t receive in our homes and that friends who haven’t had the same experience can’t offer), something to tell me “no, you aren’t crazy, it really happened”, “as crazy as it sounds, yes, she really did it to you/your relationship” etc.
I have a big tendency to forgive and forget. And that may be dangerous if you do that too soon with a narcissist. Many times before I forgot what the narcissistic woman did to me, considered it a misunderstanding, justified it, rationalized, only to be hurt incredibly more deeper.
Also, many of us can't believe there are people that evil. I realize now I still haven't accepted what happened. I need confirmation from the books and articles that people like this really exist.
Right now I am rereading everything about it. I need it to be alert for the moment. It will take some time before I can relax a little.
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I do the same thing. IMO, I need to research on narcissism because deep down I recognize that I am naive and I tend to fall in the same traps again.
So, when I read about N, I am looking for some validation (that most often we didn't receive in our homes and that friends who haven't had the same experience can't offer), something to tell me No, you aren't crazy, it really happened, “as crazy as it sounds, yes, she really did it to you/your relationship etc.
I have a big tendency to forgive and forget. And that may be dangerous if you do that too soon with a narcissist. Many times before I forgot what the narcissistic woman did to me, considered it a misunderstanding, justified it, rationalized, only to be hurt incredibly more deeper.
Also, many of us can't believe there are people that evil. I realize now I still haven't accepted what happened. I need confirmation from the books and articles that people like this really exist.
Right now I am rereading everything about it. I need it to be alert for the moment. It will take some time before I can relax a little.
Hardtotrust,
Welcome to the board! I hope you post more and tell us about yourself, but only when ready -- I'd like to hear your story.
Your post was so helpful to me. This morning, as I was making my way to the office, I was thinking about the N woman who hurt me, I realized so much of the pain was just the distress of trying to make sense, or find reason in her slander and rejection of me.
Your post was validating for me about how much I need validation that is was not all my fault :) thanks.
Sure I had a part, my FOO stuff and unfinished baggage was my part, not having my eyes open was my part, unconsciously attracting this person into my life was my part.
I wonder about people who have never had any serious form of child abuse or n parents, I wonder how they would interact with an N? Would the N hurt them too?
Lise
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Gabben (Lise)
I only read your initial question... but I do the same. It is a crazy-making disorder. I just cannot believe it so much of the time. I held everything in this past week and finally exploded, telling my husband everything to see if he thought I was crazy or could see what I was talking about. Thankfully he did, and does, see it. But I always feel like I am in the middle of a huge game and I don't have the rules. I feel like the players are children who will throw the pieces at me soon - and they will... your description of tearing down one's virtues seems to me to be right on target.
Love, Beth
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Would the N hurt them too?
My opinion - I think the N would hurt them but I think they would feel the pain and create distance between themselves and the N. Many of us seem stuck, unable to create distance, as though we owe something to the N (because the N thinks we owe him/her.)
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Would the N hurt them too?
My opinion - I think the N would hurt them but I think they would feel the pain and create distance between themselves and the N. Many of us seem stuck, unable to create distance, as though we owe something to the N (because the N thinks we owe him/her.)
Oooohhh that is good, yes, there is a connection and sort of strange tie or sense that I owe them, you have got me thinking, GS.
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The N twists us into believing that we owe the N. That is how the N get's his or her supply. It is one of the most damaging features.
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GS,
Question: What would you say could be the underlying story behind my attracting envious women?
Or, why is it that I get triggered by envious women. Women are going to be envious, or jealous, from time to time but that does not always mean that I have to get my buttons pushed, correct?
Because of my relationship with God, I have confidence. Also, I do not waste time comparing myself to others and I am happy with living a average normal life. Envy has never been a motivator for me but if I was to say that I have not felt threatend from time to time then that would be a misrepresentation. What matters is that I do not act on those feelings.
My new spiritual director told me that I tend to play the savior role.
Recently I realized that I was playing the savior role with N saint. At some point in our work I saw and knew who she was. It was right after she manipulated me into babysitting for her by withholding where she was going because she new that I would want to go also and then I would not sit for her, it was an annual parish function, I got stuck baby-sitting because she conveniently forgot to remind me, she knew that I would have attended, if I knew about it.
At that point I was hurt and annoyed but to weak to call her on it. However, I started to look under her mask more with peeks and glances by trying to arouse her fears and insecurities just to see if she was really who I was actually beginning to see.
In other words I taunted her, just ever so slightly to confirm my gut feelings. I'm not proud of it but I had to get confirmation that my gut was telling me was true.
I also started trying to play the savior role, I sent her a few subtle messages about healing and FOO stuff and facing ourselves from the 5th step work I do in AA. She did not bite. When I tried to relate my own spiritual awakening and my own sense of healing and connection with God, she still just acted like she had all of the answers and how dare I even presume to know anything, she was above me and I was below her.
Anyway -- why do I attract envious women and then want to save them?
The story that we act out is a unknown pain from our past that we need to fully integrate, otherwise we keep acting it out, correct?
Lise
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Would the N hurt them too?
My opinion - I think the N would hurt them but I think they would feel the pain and create distance between themselves and the N. Many of us seem stuck, unable to create distance, as though we owe something to the N (because the N thinks we owe him/her.)
Bingo again, GS!
Maybe I better start tapping myself.
xo
Hops
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LOL Hops - Well tapping or no - listing my painful, shameful memories and rethinking them has definitely helped me emotionally.
Oh my heavens Gabben. That is a tough one, an important one. I think that only you can answer why you are triggered by envious women. It can be very hard to get at the source of our triggers. I'm learning that in single memories there may be layers of triggering. For instance, yesterday I was working on some memories from my first marriage. In that memory were struggles with my husband, who was not very loving, struggles within myself, struggles with my parents (even thought they were not present) and others twists and turns. There was plenty of work I could do on one simply memory.
Can you think of some instances when jeolous women triggered you? That might be a place to start. What was your mother like. That's another good place to start. What was her mother like - another good place to explore.
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Hi GS,
Thanks -- hope you are having a good day?
If you look at my thread about patterns with envious women you will see that I got to the source of the issue! :D
It has a lot to do with needing to be valued by my mom and her needing me to value her.
I lost myself in the process, conformed to her will so that I could be valued for valuing her, does that make sense?
When envious women start trying to grab at me I usually just run the other way and let them have whatever they want, the attention, respect, etc.. In my twenties I worked hard to overcome a lot of my excessive needs that derived from lack of.
It was also important for me to overcome insecurity and to learn to recognize when I felt threatend. That is the AA program in a nut shell -- having faith vs. fear!
Today I am in the wound-pain of feeling the rage and indignation of never being valued, having my gifts and self stolen from me from my mom.
Can you see how envious threatend women would trigger this?
Thanks again for your support and words.
Blessings on your day,
Lise
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You are welcome, Gabben.
Thank you, it's been a while since the last time I felt I had been useful to someone (and not just attending to my narcissists' desires).
I am thinking about writing about my last relationship soon.
Hugs.
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Hi Hardtotrust,
Looking forward to reading your story soon, hopefully. Thanks for your support.
Lise
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Gabben, would it be helpful the next time an envious woman triggers you that before you react you remind yourself that their behavior reminds you of your mother and then remember that this person holds no power over you the way your mother did. This may help give you enough space to get away from the person before you react so that you can process the experience without getting sucked in. - just a thought
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Hi GS -- :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
I'll be more careful next time that woman envies me -- bad me!!!
Why did I do that -- Kick me ---kick me......stuipid me -- stupid me.......... :( :( :(
Bad me ..................................I suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why did I not know that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I should have known -- not to react to the problem/pattern that I just became aware that I had, bad me.....I should learn faster....Bad Lise.
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Yikes - I hope all that "bad me" talk is not real and I hope that if it is it is not in response to my post. I would never want you to react to anyone else's actions by castigating or condemning yourself.
I have been working very hard to bring my own self-condemnations to the light over the past two years so I can overwrite those negative thoughts with more positive ones.
I have come to believe what I have read in many forms, that negative thoughts can create a negative reality in our lives. I am working to change my negative thoughts and hope you did not think I was suggesting you should shoulder negative thoughts about yourself for being triggered.
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GS - "is not real and I hope that if it is it is not in response to my post."
I stopped beating myself up a long time ago or at least until I came back to this board and got crapped all over by others who take delight in pointing out your faults and mistakes. Not that you were doing that but it hurt to read and I sure felt that way when I posted that.
Hops earlier today was trying to point out to me a possible mistake I made as well as she was pointing out in a passive way a past mistake I made.
One can only take so much.
Lately, I have been working on my reactionary issues and my buttons. I'm aware. Your post felt shaming to me not gentle or compassionate to the layer of pain that I have been working through.
My heart has been in deep rage, indignation and hurt at my mom's betrayal. When that wound is up it tends to color our world. This board is not the best place for me to be.
My chest hurts right now -- it is time for me to leave the board for a while, your post was the final trigger.
Just like someone else said earlier today what triggers us are behavioral reminders of our N parents, nothing more, nothing less.
The pain your post brought up for is much like the pain that my n mom would give me when she would crap all over me for making a mistake.
Outa here~
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I stopped beating myself up a long time ago or at least until I came back to this board and got crapped all over by others who take delight in pointing out your faults and mistakes.
Oh my heavens, Gabben. My intention was to share the method I have been using to help undo my pain. I did not mean to cause you more pain. I am so sorry that my post was hurtful to you.
I didn't see your actions or your struggle as "faults" or "mistakes". I saw them as wounds that I assume all of us here have. I was hope to respond to your question in a way that would be soothing and helpful but I have done just the opposite and I am terribly sorry to have added to your pain.
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GS -- It is not your fault, I am in too much pain these days, I just need a break from the board.
Lise
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she was pointing out in a passive way a past mistake I made.
I don't know what this refers to, Lise...but I am sorry you're upset.
I hope peace comes your way soon,
Hops