Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => What Helps? => Topic started by: Certain Hope on February 10, 2008, 01:11:11 PM
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In contrast to the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist,
the Shy/Covert Narcissist
is characterized by vulnerability and sensitivity which manifests itself in defensiveness and hostility.
Like the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Shy/Covert Narcissist
has grandiose fantasies,
feels a sense of entitlement,
and is exploitive.
However, the Shy/Covert Narcissistic personality is characterized by worry,
ineffective functioning,
unfulfilled expectations,
and vulnerability to stress.
In - Further developments in the clinical diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder -
A.M. Cooper summarizes the distinguishing features of the Shy/Covert Narcissist as follows:
Covert narcissistic individuals are those whose fantasies,
whether conscious or unconscious,
are indeed grandiose, inflated, unrealistic, and self-centered.
They may be preoccupied with fantasies of grandiose achievements, imagining themselves as world heroes, centers of attention, and acclaimed by all. However, for one of several dynamic reasons, these fantasies are not expressed in overt behavior and are regarded by the individual consciously as beyond attainment.
The grandiose desires are not matched by a conviction of personal efficacy.
These individuals are conflicted and guilty over their overweening exhibitionistic, competitive, and aggressive desires,
and their defensiveness often leads them to suppress or repress any awareness of the existence of these qualities.
Most often, a barrier is imposed by a severe inner conscience that finds these fantasies unacceptable, demanding both that they should be suppressed and that the person should feel guilty for harboring unacceptable wishes.
In effect, the superego accurately detects
that within these self-inflating ideas lie self-centered, aggrandizing desires to attribute all goodness and power to oneself
and relegate all weakness and badness to others, an aspect of the angry envy that probably is involved in the genesis of all narcissistic pathology.
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To continue, from
A.M. Cooper's - Further developments in the clinical diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder -
The patients, like the public at large, may see only the final defensive inhibitory behaviors
and perceive themselves as shy and unassertive,
unable to obtain what rightfully they deserve.
Often, the first hint of their underlying grandiosity comes when one realizes that adolescent types of daydreams of being heroic and acclaimed have persisted into adult life with unusual intensity and frequency.
These individuals often think of themselves as perfectionists . . . their fantasy of what they ought to be or produce is so inflated and grandiose that no actual product ever meets their internal standard.
This discrepancy between unconscious fantasy and reality leads to further guilt and
merciless attack from the conscience for not meeting self-set standards
as well as to feelings of worthlessness concurrent with grandiosity.
These individuals often come to the attention of psychiatrists because of the depression and sense of inner deadness that they experience, as nothing in the world matches the thrill of triumphant achievement that they imagine is due them.
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The basic idea is that a narcissist wants to secure himself against the need to say,
"Okay, I made a mistake, I was wrong."
To a narcissist, this is a fate worse than death, and many narcissists quite literally suffer death to avoid the possibility.
Normal people are willing to be found wrong, over and over again, because this is in the nature of life.
Such people expect their personal creative process to eventually bear fruit, and are willing to experiment with reality,
walk paths not yet explored, sometimes stumble and fall,
in the hope of contributing something new to the store of human knowledge.
At some risk of oversimplification, a normal person is willing to be wrong 100 times in order to create something uniquely new and useful,
while a narcissist sacrifices this opportunity, this stage of personal evolution, in order to be secure against the possibility of being found wrong.
For a normal person, being wrong is the price we pay for the creative process.
For a narcissist, being wrong is too high a price to pay —
better to label other people as wrong, from within an impregnable fortress of mediocrity.
Unfortunately, in exchange for an infantile kind of security, narcissists sacrifice any chance to positively influence the world.
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This is very helpful! Thanks for posting. :) In the past I have described my father as borderline autistic but shy/covert narcissism may be a better explanation of his overall behavior. In his youth, he imagined himself becoming a great military general and even applied to West Point. I'm fuzzy on details but I believe he was accepted and then for some reason didn't go. Maybe at an unconscious level he knew he had no chance of success. So then he ends up a nuclear scientist when it appeared in the 1950's this technology was going to save the world. That fantasy fell apart by the 70's and he spent most of his mid/later life in a depressive autistic state, even though from an outside point of view he didn't have a bad career. He once wrote a letter to my brother in which he described himself as "wanting to soar but totally failing to do so".
Aspergers syndrome seemed a good label because I never directly experienced the early grandiose phase, but I definitely got to see the later subtle sense of entitlement, failure, and severe vulnerability to stress. He used to come home from his job and lie in bed for hours with a hot water bottle, supposedly because of stress from his job.
My head is spinning from all the new revelations in the past few weeks.... :lol:
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You are so welcome, tjr! I always benefit from your posts... and so glad to reciprocate!
This area of covert narcissism is fairly new to me, as well... and instantly I recognize alot of my mother in it... and in what you describe of your father, coming home to his hot water bottle. E v e r y step of life is so absolutely dreadful and stressful for these folks, I think. My mother was in a constant state of being internally overwound and yet depressed... and simple depression or ocd or any other tag just never explained it.
For me, having always been quite shy (until I met and survived npd ex in my 40's!!), I can see clearly the roots within myself of this covert narcissism... and I almost feel as though it may be what helped me survive some of the dreadful setbacks over the years (as well as likely helping me into position for setbacks :?). The ingredients for this mess are all there, within me... and yet, so is empathy... and I attribute the activation of that empathy to my own children, without whom...
well, I think I might be much more like my mother than I care to imagine.
So yeah, my head's spinning, too... lol :?
See, I never sacrificed my need to be right.
I just hit enough walls which proved me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt that I woke up.
Thank God!
Thanks for your comments, tjr.. always much appreciated.
Carolyn
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WOW, this was very enlightening for me as well! My fiance shows many of the Shy/Covert signs as well. He appears somewhat anti-social, he does not like social events or family gatherings, Holidays, etc. He sits at home on that computer game. He enflates everything and acts as the world centers around him. Acts as he is the "all powerful" and we must all listen to what he says.
This so helps me to realize I am not alone with this topic. I wish us all well with this very powerful subject that affects many of our lives.
Elaine
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"He immediately picks up other peoples words and phrases and adopts them into speech and written form"
What I would so love to know, desire to know, is WHY exactly did he (and looking back he always did this .... with others too)
What is it? Is there a concept / meaning for this ?
I think this is significantly important, to know, why and what.
Does anyone know?
Many thanks,
Leah x
I agree it's significant. My father does this. It's another pattern I started to see in recent years. He throws out phrases and opinions from books, magazines, and other statements as if they were his own original creation. It's definitely crazymaking. Others try to interact based on his opinions of the day, but the next day he reads something different and his position shifts. I've made comments which he instantly counters (the typical response) but then not much later he's repeating the comments as his own opinion. Very weird and hard to deal with. He operates like a computer with no long term memory, following a program to respond to everything with a counterpoint or covertly abusive comment.
This is just sort of thinking out loud but maybe it has to do with their lack of connection to an authentic strong "core self"? Since N's look out at the world and see nothing but projections of themselves, they pick up material from outside and quickly translate it into their own, totally without consciousness of the underlying process. At the same time, they can't acknowledge it came from "outside" because that would be admitting vulnerability and weakness. So they are involved in a constant somewhat desperate project to build their "self" out of the material coming at them in the moment, while at the same time denying what is going on.
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So glad to know y'all are finding this info helpful!
Here's the rest of what I've gathered so far... with more to come:
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A Covert/Shy Narcissist will have grandiose fantasies but will also be plagued by a feeling of unworthiness and thus shame for even having fantasized about his or her greatness.
This type of narcissist is likely to be characterized by an incapacity to sustain ambitions or to pursue even attainable goals with full dedication, yielding to others rewards that he or she may legitimately deserve.
The final result is often significant masochistic self-damage, self-pity, feelings of hurt, and depression.
While feeling they deserve to be recognized for their specialness,
unlike the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Covert/Shy Narcissist is plagued by self-doubts
and thus does not as readily seek the affirmation from others he or she believes is due.
Moreover, because of this strong sense of worthlessness, this type of narcissist often will not seek out appropriate friends or romantic partners, because they fear exposure as frauds.
For this reason their associates tend to be conspicuously inferior to themselves.
Cooper observes that this narcissist, secretly harbors fantasies that he or she is engaged in a heroic rescue of someone of lesser capabilities...
And, when their friends and associates offer praise, the Shy/Covert Narcissist believes that this admiration is phony and insincere.
They tend to devote a considerable amount of time ruminating over the unfairness of how little their true worth is appreciated and how others get the recognition for things that they themselves did.
For Elaine ~ my husband is rather addicted to a computer game, as well... and I myself have struggled with addictive behavior (particularly to the internet! :o)... so I'd just like to say that this sort of behavior in and of itself can be attributed to numerous other factors besides covert narcissism, although... considering the patterns in your fiance's behavior, I dunno.
Anyhow, some of this stuff is mere childish fantasy (computer preoccupation), some can be attributed to depression, avoidance, obsessive compulsive traits... whew - - a very messy mish-mash of complications, indeed. But I'll try to write some more about computer addictions soon - particularly re: these games, which especially can be seditious (like the rpg - role playing games).
Hugs,
Carolyn
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I believe that is it in a nutshell, I really do. What I have thought is that he would take on a "self" a 'persona' simply because he did not have one, a core Self.
This whole experience is a living nightware to walk and live through with someone and so very crazymaking.
((((( TJR ))))) that you have lived through all of this also.
I honestly feel understood and validated.
Grateful thanks,
Leah x
Hi Leah. Likewise I am very grateful to you for the feedback and validation. I've kinda stumbled along for years with no discussion of these issues. There were a few feeble attempts with the siblings, but we are all subject to the same unconscious rulebook so it never went very far. And as I've suggested on other threads, validation and positive feedback were in pretty short supply in my FOO.
After thinking about it some more, the "lack of self" idea explains a lot. I had been wondering if my father was just getting senile, but now I recognize a pattern going back to my early childhood. He reads a book, gets an narcissistic inflationary idea, pursues it for awhile, reality proves disappointing, then he falls into depression, blaming it on outside "forces" such as the family. From my mid-life perspective I can't remember a time it wasn't going on. The entire FOO experience was an emotional roller coaster driven (at least in part) by my fathers bi-polar swings.
The conversation you describe with your ex strikes me as a child/adult trap. You being the rational adult remember what he said three weeks ago and remind him of this straightforward information. He comes back like an 8 year old with "no I didn't" Now you are expected to be the parent and just let him bounce around in his regressive fantasy world. Not much chance of an "adult to adult" relationship from that point.
Thanks again Carolyn for starting this thread. It's been a personal history changing revelation for me. Learning about autism and aspergers syndrome a few years ago was a great help, but it never quite fit what was going on in my family.
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For me, having always been quite shy (until I met and survived npd ex in my 40's!!), I can see clearly the roots within myself of this covert narcissism... and I almost feel as though it may be what helped me survive some of the dreadful setbacks over the years (as well as likely helping me into position for setbacks :?). The ingredients for this mess are all there, within me... and yet, so is empathy... and I attribute the activation of that empathy to my own children, without whom...
well, I think I might be much more like my mother than I care to imagine.
Carolyn
Seems like a good non N-ish insight to me. Maybe you WERE more like your mother than you imagine, but are now conscious of the whole thing, which is NOT like her? So possibly an N-ish phase was just part of a larger unfolding. What seems narcissistic in hindsight may have been temporary defensive self containment.
Likewise for me, the more sobering revelation is how it might have been passed down to me. It's obvious how my father picked it up from my grandfather, and my brother from my father. During my early adulthood I was reeling from an inflation/deflation cycle of my own and rather desperately searching for a sense of self. I feel like I was reeling from the effects of the whole childhood environment, and maybe now am starting to overcome these limitations.
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Seems like a good non N-ish insight to me. Maybe you WERE more like your mother than you imagine, but are now conscious of the whole thing, which is NOT like her? So possibly an N-ish phase was just part of a larger unfolding. What seems narcissistic in hindsight may have been temporary defensive self containment.
Likewise for me, the more sobering revelation is how it might have been passed down to me. It's obvious how my father picked it up from my grandfather, and my brother from my father. During my early adulthood I was reeling from an inflation/deflation cycle of my own and rather desperately searching for a sense of self. I feel like I was reeling from the effects of the whole childhood environment, and maybe now am starting to overcome these limitations.
Thank you so much, tjr. This is an area which absolutely boggles my mind, because - as you've indicated - I know that we each bear inherited traits from our parents, etc... and so, of course, I "can't help" but be like my mother in some ways... and it's like the battle against my own innate characteristics somehow keeps her (and my dad, too, in other ways) as the focal point of my struggles... when I don't want to have inherited anything from them, you know? I guess maybe the source of all that is anger, on my part, but it feels more like revulsion. And the alternative to that seems to be to consider their positive qualities... which I also find to be a revolting concept.
Sorry, this is really a confusing mess to try to express, but... it's like I'm afraid to consider any of their characteristics as "good" or positive, because that feels like making myself a potential victim yet once again of hoping that maybe they could be capable of a genuine relationship.
It'd be so much easier to apply black/white thinking to them, but that's the immature mentality of the adolescent in me, I think...
and when you boil it all down, I don't want to be going through something now which shoulda been over 30 years ago, when I was a teenager.
Anyhow, I love the expression "temporary defensive self containment"... and I do believe it fits... I just wish it hadn't lasted so long. Truly, it's the same exact phenomenon I witness in my own teenaged daughter, who's about to turn 17...
and the same with my older 2 girls... both of whom appear to have outgrown it now...
good grief, I can make myself dizzy with wondering.
So I understand at a gut level - the reeling from the effects. When all you know is to somehow try to merge, meld, or complete the identity of another who has virtually no sense self... now that's a life built on illusion. The unsettling discomfort of finding your own two legs on which to stand... well, it's like coming off a 40 year boat ride and finding that they're made of jello. They'll strengthen with exercise though, I keep tellin myself... they really will.
Thanks again. Your post really helped.
Carolyn
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This gets pretty technical, but there's some good info to be gleaned, I think:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:0LnDLzq7Z7AJ:www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Wink/Two%2520faces%2520of%2520Narcissism.pdf+covert+narcissism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:0LnDLzq7Z7AJ:www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Wink/Two%2520faces%2520of%2520Narcissism.pdf+covert+narcissism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us)
from Two Faces of Narcissism by Paul Wink, Institute of Personality Assessment and Research University of California, Berkeley
The present study examines the lack of strong correlations among existing self-report measures of narcissism. A principal-components analysis of 6 MMPI narcissism scales resulted in 2 orthogonal factors, 1 implying Vulnerability-Sensitivity and the other Grandiosity-Exhibitionism. Although unrelated to each other, these 2 factors were associated with such core features of narcissism as conceit, self-indulgence, and disregard of others. Despite this common core, however, Vulnerabil- ity-Sensitivity was associated with introversion, defensiveness, anxiety, and vulnerability to life's traumas, whereas Grandiosity-Exhibitionism was related to extraversion, self-assurance, exhibi- tionism, and aggression. Three alternative interpretations of these results are considered, and an argument for the distinction between covert and overt narcissism is made.
.......... A third interpretation can be derived from the clinical per- spective, and involves the distinction between overt and covert forms of narcissism.
Psychoanalysts have attributed narcissism to parental insensitivity, which results in the child's defensive grandiosity (Kernberg, 1975),
or, alternatively,
prevents the transformation of infantile feelings of grandeur into a healthy sense of self-esteem (Kohut, 1971, 1977).
The presence of gran- deur is accompanied by feelings of inferiority, which reflect the child's natural and nondefensive response to faulty and insensi- tive parenting. Through the use of the defense mechanism of splitting (Kernberg, 1975; Klein, 1957), the narcissist manages to keep the two conflicting feelings about the self away from conscious awareness.
The contradictory sense of narcissistic self-esteem in con- junction with the use of splitting has led dynamic researchers (Kernberg, 1975, 1986; Kohut, 1977) to postulate the presence of two forms of narcissism.
When it is overt, narcissistic gran- diosity leads to a direct expression of exhibitionism, self-impor- tance, and preoccupation with receiving attention and admira- tion from others. This overt form of narcissism is reflected in the DSM-III criteria, which also acknowledge the contradic- tory nature of narcissistic self-esteem. Similarly, Reich's (1949) notion of phallic narcissism stresses arrogant self-assurance, blatant self-confidence, and flagrant display of superiority.
The second form of narcissism, covert narcissism, is marked by largely unconscious feelings of grandeur and openly dis- played lack of self-confidence and initiative, vague feelings of depression, and an absence of zest for work (narcissistic defi- ciency). Covertly narcissistic individuals appear to be hyper- sensitive, anxious, timid, and insecure, but on close contact surprise observers with their grandiose fantasies (Kernberg, 1986). Moreover, they share with the overt narcissists those nar- cissistic characteristics, such as exploitativeness and a sense of entitlement, whose expression does not depend on interper- sonal style.
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This is an area which absolutely boggles my mind, because - as you've indicated - I know that we each bear inherited traits from our parents, etc... and so, of course, I "can't help" but be like my mother in some ways... and it's like the battle against my own innate characteristics somehow keeps her (and my dad, too, in other ways) as the focal point of my struggles... when I don't want to have inherited anything from them, you know? I guess maybe the source of all that is anger, on my part, but it feels more like revulsion. And the alternative to that seems to be to consider their positive qualities... which I also find to be a revolting concept.
Sorry, this is really a confusing mess to try to express, but... it's like I'm afraid to consider any of their characteristics as "good" or positive, because that feels like making myself a potential victim yet once again of hoping that maybe they could be capable of a genuine relationship.
It'd be so much easier to apply black/white thinking to them, but that's the immature mentality of the adolescent in me, I think...
and when you boil it all down, I don't want to be going through something now which shoulda been over 30 years ago, when I was a teenager.
I understand where you are coming from, because it sure looks like the place I'm at. For 20 years I was in a struggle to avoid ending up in a situation like the FOO. I tried to do things that seemed nearly opposite of how they operate. Then at age 39, I survey the wreckage of my own life (the collapse of my own narcissistic fantasies?) and wonder how I ended up in a place that looked so much like the start, except with different accessories and scenery. Then it gets confusing. Is my real self struggling against a false self, or is the whole struggle part of the false self? Struggle doesn't seem to work, but I feel the same as you about passivity. Just giving in and accepting their "positive qualities" as the driver of myself looks like a trap. My brother seems to be going this way, and it's not a path I want to go down.
Coming from N-ish environments it feels like we are thrown into the pool with an anchor around our necks. Our parents weren't in the business of helping us discover our real selves, so we pick up their n-ish behavors and selves as part of our own. In my family I was treated to a steady stream of labels and comparisons: "You act like your father" "You have your mothers temper" and on and on. It would have been nice (or at least different)to be treated as a real separate individual.
I've been trying my best to stay in the moment and just witness the process churning within the mind, then maybe making a different choice when temptation to go down the wrong path pops up. Maybe I was like the parents in the past, and maybe I have the same impulses, but I can try to stay conscious of the whole process and make better choices, moment to moment.
It doesn't appear my father, grandfather, brother e.t.c.. have ever tried this sort of approach, so maybe it's a way out of the trap? Then again it could always be another narcissistic fantasy. I guess it's never going to get easy :)
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I understand where you are coming from, because it sure looks like the place I'm at. For 20 years I was in a struggle to avoid ending up in a situation like the FOO. I tried to do things that seemed nearly opposite of how they operate.
Then at age 39, I survey the wreckage of my own life
(the collapse of my own narcissistic fantasies?)
and wonder how I ended up in a place that looked so much like the start, except with different accessories and scenery.
Then it gets confusing.
Yes!! Exactly, tjr!! And THEN it gets confusing... argh!
Doing exactly the opposite (externally) until the collapse of my own n fantasies... yes. That is just how it has seemed to me.
As an aside, because I don't know where else to put this...
Today I realized that a big chunk of what I've been despising about my parents, since I left behind religion, is their religiousity... because it has always - for as long as I can recall - been so obviously superficial to me. They are as religious about writing to me as they are about attending church... and in neither case is their any genuine relationship. God knows how I feel about that!
In my mind, I have clearly equated them to the form of "dead religion" which was the hallmark of my life for so many years... and it didn't have anything to do with attending a church. For me, it was the religion of perfectionism and keeping up appearances. That is all I am to them, I feel...
an outlet for their religiousity.
I hate it... and, in my mind, they are it.... and so I'm confessing it here and opening myself to healing for that internal wound of bitterness.
Is my real self struggling against a false self, or is the whole struggle part of the false self? Struggle doesn't seem to work, but I feel the same as you about passivity. Just giving in and accepting their "positive qualities" as the driver of myself looks like a trap. My brother seems to be going this way, and it's not a path I want to go down.
But many human beings have positive qualities ( I hesitate to say that all do ) ... why must our positive qualities be necessarily inherited from them?
See... I don't want anything from them at all, bad or good... that's my pride talking, I feel. It's up to us to choose to stop comparing ourselves with them or with anyone else, I am thinking.
Coming from N-ish environments it feels like we are thrown into the pool with an anchor around our necks. Our parents weren't in the business of helping us discover our real selves, so we pick up their n-ish behavors and selves as part of our own. In my family I was treated to a steady stream of labels and comparisons: "You act like your father" "You have your mothers temper" and on and on. It would have been nice (or at least different)to be treated as a real separate individual.
Yes :( and I know that there's some truth in some of those remarks... but only a seed of truth... and my first thought is - we can choose not to water those seeds!!
I've been trying my best to stay in the moment and just witness the process churning within the mind, then maybe making a different choice when temptation to go down the wrong path pops up. Maybe I was like the parents in the past, and maybe I have the same impulses, but I can try to stay conscious of the whole process and make better choices, moment to moment.
It doesn't appear my father, grandfather, brother e.t.c.. have ever tried this sort of approach, so maybe it's a way out of the trap? Then again it could always be another narcissistic fantasy. I guess it's never going to get easy :)
No, not a fantasy, I don't think, tjr... not at all. Sounds like maturity, to me...
not being able to say, "Hey, I've arrived!"... but definitely able to say, "I've left the station!" :)
This really is helping... thank you so much.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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I don't know if you're being fair to yourself when you call it 'my own narcissistic fantasies'. My feeling is that children are born into the fantasy of the N. Babies don't come into the world knowing normal form narcissist. When they are groomed from the cradle to live in the fantasy created by the N, then how are they to know?
However, as adults coming out of the fantasy (which may be displayed in a number of ways including narcissism), then like it or not, we must own who we are (or choose to remain in denial) and do what it takes to get on the right path. And that's the hard part. My thinking is that childhood is 0 to the age of accountability. And in my experience, it takes just about that much time to undo the damage done to one in the childhood years. Not a pleasant thought, but IMO one close to accurate.
tt
Thanks TT. I may be overconscious of possibilities for fantasy, because it seems to be a major theme in my FOO. My father and my brother seem to have strong fantasies lives that interfere with real functioning. I think my personal challenges lie more in issues of parentification. I was the parentified oldest sibling who spent the first twenty years of adult life trying to fill the emotional void from childhood with outside "stuff", or the avoidance of outside stuff.
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They are as religious about writing to me as they are about attending church... and in neither case is their any genuine relationship. God knows how I feel about that!
Carolyn
Hi Carolyn. I was wondering if you also experienced "parenting by mail" since there are so many other parallels in your FOO's. The letters from my parents (mostly my father) drove me nuts with their criticisms, self absorbed content, and no invitations at all to any real dialogue. I finally decided it was an extension of the usual pattern. For my father it was a way of monologuing on paper with no danger at all of reciprocal interaction. And he could tell himself he was a good father for putting the time in to write these letters.
Religion is a tough issue for me as well. I was required to attend church weekly for my early years, but it was obviously just a ritual. My father didn't attend, which made it more confusing. I'd like to find some sort of spiritual group, but my early experiences were so bad it's hard to get over the distrust of organized religion.
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Unread letters from Nparents, shredded, make really good mulch for the vegetables.
love,
Hops
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Unread letters from Nparents, shredded, make really good mulch for the vegetables.
love,
Hops
Points noted.. all of them.
Thanks, Hops. You've helped.
Love,
Carolyn
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I also was parentified, and I believe scapegoated (though I don't understand the dynamic of how the two co existed) but didn't realize it until about two thirds through my recovery which is now in its eight year.
Kindest regards,
tt
Hi TT.
Maybe parentification is an unconscious dynamic (to them) which is then compensated by a more visible process of scapegoating?. I've seen something like this going on in my FOO. They parentify you, but this isn't comfortable at some level, so they have to beat up on you at the same time. It all fluctuates day to day making the whole scene into emotional chaos. One day they are dependent, the next day they feel like being parents so then you are put "back into your place". Seeing through the whole game is very challenging.
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They are as religious about writing to me as they are about attending church... and in neither case is their any genuine relationship. God knows how I feel about that!
Carolyn
Hi Carolyn. I was wondering if you also experienced "parenting by mail" since there are so many other parallels in your FOO's. The letters from my parents (mostly my father) drove me nuts with their criticisms, self absorbed content, and no invitations at all to any real dialogue. I finally decided it was an extension of the usual pattern. For my father it was a way of monologuing on paper with no danger at all of reciprocal interaction. And he could tell himself he was a good father for putting the time in to write these letters.
Religion is a tough issue for me as well. I was required to attend church weekly for my early years, but it was obviously just a ritual. My father didn't attend, which made it more confusing. I'd like to find some sort of spiritual group, but my early experiences were so bad it's hard to get over the distrust of organized religion.
Hi, tjr,
Had to take a couple days before replying to you here because - of all ironies - a gigantic stack of letters from them just got opened here at our house.
After sitting next to the hearth for 2 months, just piling up, my daughter brought this tower of large manilla envelopes to me the other night and asked,
half-heartedly, "should I open these?" I said, "If you feel like digging through it. I don't." So she did.. sorting and separating.. piles of this, and that, just as she's seen me do with past batches.
And it hit me just now, as I re-read your post here - - it's not even "parenting by mail", but more like indoctrination... like we get from the political candidates
or some non-profit group to whom we made a donation once, 15 years ago. And it never stops. You're on... "The List".
I still haven't read their letters. Daughter got through half of them and quit. It's bizarre... copies of vfw and Am.Legion mags, envelopes full of jokes (some pretty questionable), even old cards which have been sent to him by some of his questionable friends - - as though - - what?
It's important for me to know that other people send him cards? I don't get it.
Monologuing on paper with no danger at all of reciprocal interaction - - indeed! It's so creepy... almost like he's trying to pour himself into me or my kids - - and not in a good, positive way!
He has this way... almost as though he worships himself and wants to tightly control our vision of him. At the same time, he sends this stuff which makes a mockery of my mother's perfectionism and n'ishness... like photos labeled "this is grandma's back yard" and "grandma's flowers which I planted, watered, weeded", etc etc
Leaves me feeling miserable.
I didn't even read them, and I still felt tainted... just by getting a glimpse of the rubbish.\
And the church bulletins and ultra conservative (only a select group of Lutherans have the straight scoop and will go to heaven" newspapers... he is still sending them.
This after writing that he "respects" my thoughts - whoopee - after I poured my heart out to him in writing about my relationship with Jesus and how much I've learned through our pastor/teacher.
Some respect.
He never asks anything about us, only keeps sending his propaganda.
okay, end of rant.
Sorry, guess I didn't wait long enough before replying... but yes, I understand.
And I have never gotten over my distrust of organized religion... it wouldn't be prudent. lol
oy
Carolyn
P.S. Hi, tt... I see you over there... just a day late and a dollar short, these days. xo
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I also was parentified, and I believe scapegoated (though I don't understand the dynamic of how the two co existed) but didn't realize it until about two thirds through my recovery which is now in its eight year.
Kindest regards,
tt
Hi TT.
Maybe parentification is an unconscious dynamic (to them) which is then compensated by a more visible process of scapegoating?. I've seen something like this going on in my FOO. They parentify you, but this isn't comfortable at some level, so they have to beat up on you at the same time. It all fluctuates day to day making the whole scene into emotional chaos. One day they are dependent, the next day they feel like being parents so then you are put "back into your place". Seeing through the whole game is very challenging.
tjr, I think that's what my dad does in one of his mailings. The dirty jokes are his parentification of me and the religious materials are to put me back into my place as the lowly female who must be educated in spiritual matters by him. The blindness of it all is staggering.
Carolyn
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Here's some peripheral info I've gathered....
Millon identified several varieties of presentations for NPD (in a clinical setting).
These are: Amorous, Compensatory, Elitist, Fanatic, and Unprincipled
This is classic stuff, but I'm reviewing it with an eye to how these categories might be lived out by the shy, covert N - rather than the glaringly overt ones.
Since the Don Juan personality is the one that I think becomes obvious fairly quickly, I'll skip over that one and go straight to the features of the Compensatory N personality.
Millon observes that,
for the compensatory narcissist,
life is a search for pseudo-status,
an empty series of aspirations that serves no purpose other than self-enhancement.
Instead of living their own lives, they pursue the leading role and achievements
in a false and imaginary theater not related much to reality.
Should these pursuits totally lose their grounding in reality,
becoming increasingly an imaginary world peopled with self and others as in a dream,
compensatory narcissistic persons begin to deceive themselves in a manner not unlike that shown by paranoid persons.
However, whereas compensatory narcissists strive for prestige in a world composed of real people,
paranoid persons act out their aspirations in solitude. (As, I believe, do the shy/covert N's)
Because of the insecure foundations on which their narcissistic displays are grounded,
compensatory narcissistic persons are hypervigilant.
These persons have a deep sense of inadequacy at their core which they seek to hide by a display of (actually feigned) arrogance.
The hypervigilance is displayed, I believe, in the covert N, as an obsessive, paranoid state of defensiveness...
and the display of feigned arrogance seems to warp into an equally feigned humility, which is only unveiled to those closest... or those with a keen eye who observe the covert N when she doesn't get rewarded for something for which she thinks she deserves accolades.
At least, that's what I've seen. At some point the covert N begins to implode (or melt-down) when she doesn't get sufficient acknowledgement of what she views as her ultra-perfection in at least one arena of her life.
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I didn't even read them, and I still felt tainted... just by getting a glimpse of the rubbish.\
And the church bulletins and ultra conservative (only a select group of Lutherans have the straight scoop and will go to heaven" newspapers... he is still sending them.
This after writing that he "respects" my thoughts - whoopee - after I poured my heart out to him in writing about my relationship with Jesus and how much I've learned through our pastor/teacher.
Some respect.
He never asks anything about us, only keeps sending his propaganda.
It looks like you are under constant assault :( Sadly the content is all too familiar. My father doesn't do church, so his mailings have to do with science. It doesn't matter I haven't shown much interest in science over 45 years. If it interests him then it's gotta be of interest to the world, and anybody who declares otherwise must be stupid.
And I understand how hard it is to ignore the stuff. Somehow throwing it away doesn't seem to solve the problem. They put us in a no win bind. If we answer we are sucked into their weird reality. If we don't then they can feel righteously indignant for not getting a response, when they put out so much effort to "relate".
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Here's some peripheral info I've gathered....
Millon observes that,
for the compensatory narcissist,
life is a search for pseudo-status,
an empty series of aspirations that serves no purpose other than self-enhancement.
Instead of living their own lives, they pursue the leading role and achievements
in a false and imaginary theater not related much to reality.
Should these pursuits totally lose their grounding in reality,
becoming increasingly an imaginary world peopled with self and others as in a dream,
compensatory narcissistic persons begin to deceive themselves in a manner not unlike that shown by paranoid persons.
However, whereas compensatory narcissists strive for prestige in a world composed of real people,
paranoid persons act out their aspirations in solitude. (As, I believe, do the shy/covert N's)
Because of the insecure foundations on which their narcissistic displays are grounded,
compensatory narcissistic persons are hypervigilant.
These persons have a deep sense of inadequacy at their core which they seek to hide by a display of (actually feigned) arrogance.
The hypervigilance is displayed, I believe, in the covert N, as an obsessive, paranoid state of defensiveness...
and the display of feigned arrogance seems to warp into an equally feigned humility, which is only unveiled to those closest... or those with a keen eye who observe the covert N when she doesn't get rewarded for something for which she thinks she deserves accolades.
At least, that's what I've seen. At some point the covert N begins to implode (or melt-down) when she doesn't get sufficient acknowledgement of what she views as her ultra-perfection in at least one arena of her life
Very interesting. It sure seems to fit. In recent years I've come to believe my father is moving deeper into a fantasy world. Or maybe I'm just getting better at identifying the usual fantasy world. He seems to talk and act as if playing out a weird drama inside his own head. It's obvious real others in the vicinity don't exist for him, at least not as anything other than one dimensional card board cut outs. Others might trigger a response, but the "dialogue" is with characters in his own psyche. It's very weird to experience.
He maintains enough of a thin thread of connection to shared reality to not get himself labeled as crazy. The thread can only be maintained by living a ritualized, isolated lifestyle in a quiet stress free place. I've observed him when minor stresses come up, and it's clear he has a mini breakdown.
He's very paranoid as well. He lives in an extremely safe neighborhood in a small city but he's always worried about burglaries, carjacking, and other events that are very unlikely to happen. He won't even venture into a big city.
More pieces to fit into the puzzle..
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Hi TJR,
Thanks very much for all your wise posts lately...I'm learning a lot from you.
They put us in a no win bind. If we answer we are sucked into their weird reality. If we don't then they can feel righteously indignant
I had this thought. How about setting aside 5 minutes a week for a kind of screwy-Tonglin meditation? That could be, meditate long and hard about wishing them enormous, profound gratification in their righteous indignation? Visualize and encourage and send white light to them for great, satisfying joy in their righteous indignation? Wish them successful righteous indignation!
I imagine once you finish that, you truly won't bother any more about what they feel...since you can't control it anyway, and this exercise would help you well and truly let it go.
Then you win! (Your serenity and mental freedom.)
love,
Hops
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I didn't even read them, and I still felt tainted... just by getting a glimpse of the rubbish.\
And the church bulletins and ultra conservative (only a select group of Lutherans have the straight scoop and will go to heaven" newspapers... he is still sending them.
This after writing that he "respects" my thoughts - whoopee - after I poured my heart out to him in writing about my relationship with Jesus and how much I've learned through our pastor/teacher.
Some respect.
He never asks anything about us, only keeps sending his propaganda.
It looks like you are under constant assault :( Sadly the content is all too familiar. My father doesn't do church, so his mailings have to do with science. It doesn't matter I haven't shown much interest in science over 45 years. If it interests him then it's gotta be of interest to the world, and anybody who declares otherwise must be stupid.
And I understand how hard it is to ignore the stuff. Somehow throwing it away doesn't seem to solve the problem. They put us in a no win bind. If we answer we are sucked into their weird reality. If we don't then they can feel righteously indignant for not getting a response, when they put out so much effort to "relate".
Hugs, tjr... I hear you. Thanks for hearing me. It's so weird to wake up one day and suddenly realize that your own parents never had a clue who you really are... nor did they care to find out. When all of this really began to come to light for me was when I quit drinking, over 3 years ago. That's what really broke the tie that binds... far more than all the religious stuff.
One item I saw in the miscellaneous stuff he sent (when daughter opened this latch batch) really angered me for a moment... especially in light of the last words of his to me which I willingly read, when he wrote: "I respect your thoughts... we'll talk about this more 'unter vier augen'"
I hate that expression... "under 4 eyes" - or face to face... because I know that with him, that means his whiskey breath blowing all over me, my back against a wall, sending chills down my spine, while he fills me in on his world-view, of which I'd had earfuls since birth.
Anyhow, what I saw in this last batch was a devotional booklet, addressed to my teenaged daughter, with his note written on it, telling her that she should read it...
despite the fact that he now knows (I've left no room for doubt) that our views of God and religion are extremely separate and that I am instructing her of those differences... telling her point blank that I view his belief system as a dead religion.
Seeing that, I knew that I could not read the notes accompanying all this other junk... because he could not claim to respect my thoughts and then try to stuff that down my daughter's throat.
There is so much more, but it's pointless to list...
and I just want to say that I'm thankful, to you, for hearing me as I put all of this together into one not-so-neat package... because I guess I just needed to rant a bit, to someone who knows the depths of frustration and hurt.
All that science stuff he sent you... I used to think dad was trying to make a connection with me the only way he knew how. Not any more.
It's more about pouring himself into you, as he faces his own mortality... so that the great and awesome "him self" can live on.
Years ago, it was about trying to force food on me, or drink... and when I'd refuse, his response was: "You don't know what's good for you."
At this point, I don't care whether or not he feels righteously indignant. Right, I say that... and yet I've never said aloud, "Look dad, I don't read all this stuff and I don't want it, so please don't send it anymore." Why not just say that? Because I don't want to hurt him.
Yes, I understand the bind.
Thanks again, tjr... might not feel much closer to a resolution, but surely there's one just around the bend!
(As long as we don't go around the bend tryin to locate it!!)
Carolyn
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All that science stuff he sent you... I used to think dad was trying to make a connection with me the only way he knew how. Not any more.
It's more about pouring himself into you, as he faces his own mortality... so that the great and awesome "him self" can live on.
Years ago, it was about trying to force food on me, or drink... and when I'd refuse, his response was: "You don't know what's good for you."
I agree completely. I tried for years to talk myself into believing it was a real attempt to communicate, but maybe just faulty due to lack of social skills or whatever. But that doesn't explain the underlying current of hostility and systematic refusal to register anything about me or my point of view. I can tell my father over and over I don't have interest in a particular topic, and the next time I see him he'll launch right into another monologue on the topic. It isn't a memory problem, since he remembers the details of his own preoccupations for years. And he regularly denigrates any interests or opinions I might express.
Maybe as they face mortality, the narcissistic project gets all the more desperate. They are clinging to their one little fantasy of competence and have to dump it on anybody who is willing to put up with it. Parentified adult children make great targets.
For me as well, a lot of things started coming clearer when I quit alcohol and other means of "self medication". Alcohol might have been an attempt to fill the emotional emptiness and deaden the pain, and without it I had to start looking for real answers. It's been a long haul, but it seems things are getting lighter.
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Last year, I had to "walk away from the table" regarding interactions in a community setting with someone who is a scientist, and also, sadly, has some kind of personality shift/disorder. Not only myself, but, others too -- bizarre was, and is, an understatement.
Hi Leah. Yes science seems to attract a lot of unbalanced personalities. I've come to believe it's a power weapon for people such as my father. He didn't get into it out of curiosity or a desire to solve problems. At an unconscious level he just wants to prove to the world how smart he is, and science is a great tool for invalidating other people. It's now obvious to me a lot of what my father claims is just made up on the spot to counter what others are saying. A day later his "scientific" point of view can completely change.
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I had this thought. How about setting aside 5 minutes a week for a kind of screwy-Tonglin meditation? That could be, meditate long and hard about wishing them enormous, profound gratification in their righteous indignation? Visualize and encourage and send white light to them for great, satisfying joy in their righteous indignation? Wish them successful righteous indignation!
I imagine once you finish that, you truly won't bother any more about what they feel...since you can't control it anyway, and this exercise would help you well and truly let it go.
Then you win! (Your serenity and mental freedom.)
love,
Hops
Thanks Hops. This looks like a great idea to me. When we find ourselves getting tied in mental knots over this stuff, stop and meditate, instead of letting it grind on.
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This topic applies to my husband as well.
I have also been "treated" to "I never said that. Your memory is OFF. That didn't happen" from both my husband and my daughter.
Usually, with my husband, he will actually "think" he is saying something to me, and it never leaves his mouth...it remains in his thoughts. Then, when he will say "why didn't you do such n such. I told you I needed __________," I will say, "no you didn't." He will say, "I did TOO. I said _____________" and I will say, "you may have THOUGHT ___________ but those words never came out of your mouth.
At times, my daughter will say "no, dad. you didn't say that." He will then have to say "ok well I MEANT to say it."
With my preg daughter,Anna, I can ask her "remember when you used to show me how to do the "pop"...you used to dance in the living room and try to get me to do the dances with you from that era...." She will say "huh? you're trippin. I never danced for you. You must mean like YEARS AGO when I was about 6!" If I press it, she'll say "you're thinking of Carol (other daughter)."
So, last night, I asked Randi in front of Anna, "I'm trying to check my memory ability here...do you remember how you and Anna used to show me dances like the pop and other things from your era?" Randi said, "yeahhhhhhhh." Anna then told her "you two are NUTS!"
It's the same story with my cooking dinner. All of a sudden, nobody wanted to eat what I cooked, when Anna and Randi began wanting to do dinner. Now, if I try to make anything, I'm told "get out of the kitchen. Nobody's gonna eat what you make anyway, so you'll be cookin for yourself, mom!" When I say "don't you remember the nice meals I used to make" the girls will say "we only ate that stuff cause we had to. YOu SUCK at cooking. Let the real people who know how to do it, do it."
Even my husband says he doesn't remember me baking bread for him for years. To him, he has erased it all from memory. Even his sister said "oh YEAH I remember how you used to bake all those types of bread for my brother and me. He's nuts. He doesn't remember that?"
So, it's as though all the memories we had together, do not exist in my daughters' minds. It's like every day is just another day for that moment and the past never happened. It is very DISILLUSIONING living with people like that!
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Maybe as they face mortality, the narcissistic project gets all the more desperate. They are clinging to their one little fantasy of competence and have to dump it on anybody who is willing to put up with it. Parentified adult children make great targets.
For me as well, a lot of things started coming clearer when I quit alcohol and other means of "self medication". Alcohol might have been an attempt to fill the emotional emptiness and deaden the pain, and without it I had to start looking for real answers. It's been a long haul, but it seems things are getting lighter.
Dear tjr,
Hurrah for the new brightness of view and lighter load!! I can feel these things clicking into place now, as though they're finally fitting and not just floating in position, ready to jump back up and demand attention over and over again. Talking with you here has really helped so much... thank you!
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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She is still "saving" stuff to give me that I don't want and don't have room for. The "hurt" is implied rejection of the parent, you know and part of the game to keep you "hooked". For me & my mom - not wanting her "stuff" = not wanting her. But, ya know what? I've been saying I don't want it, for a couple of years now...
Hi Phoenix. Yes they want to give us their "stuff" on several levels and if we don't take it they are hurt. For the material stuff, maybe learning how to sell Ebay can be therapy... :)
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Cooper observes that this narcissist, secretly harbors fantasies that he or she is engaged in a heroic rescue of someone of lesser capabilities...
Everytime I go back and review this information, more elements of my past become clear. After the narcissist fails out in the world, then who is left to rescue but vulnerable members of the FOO? It's much easier to imagine family members as "less beings" than people out in the real world. If he has to actively work to destroy the family members in order to indulge his heroic fantasy, then that's just the way it is. Narcissistic supply is far more important than the real needs of other people.
About the time my father was going through a "mid life crisis" and started claiming to be completely unhappy and unfulfilled in his job, all of a sudden there was a shift in the way he related to the FOO. Even though I was in my twenties at the time I started getting the "parenting by mail" letters and other infantilizing treatments. I was kind of bewildered at the time but now it makes sense... He had no where else to go to feed his fantasy life. :o
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Hi Carolyn... this is an interesting thread!
At this point, I don't care whether or not he feels righteously indignant. Right, I say that... and yet I've never said aloud, "Look dad, I don't read all this stuff and I don't want it, so please don't send it anymore." Why not just say that? Because I don't want to hurt him.
My mom & I played this game for years. She is still "saving" stuff to give me that I don't want and don't have room for. The "hurt" is implied rejection of the parent, you know and part of the game to keep you "hooked". For me & my mom - not wanting her "stuff" = not wanting her. But, ya know what? I've been saying I don't want it, for a couple of years now...
and it hasn't hurt her enough to stop it.
Dear Amber,
My mother stopped it... now she just makes sure to let me know that she's given it away to someone else (who will appreciate it more, no doubt). :shock:
Dad's the one who continues like the energizer bunny... but I need to just let it go, because he is 87 and I'll feel awful when he's gone if I'm still stuck in this adolescent rut.
Really, I figure that this past 3 years has been like squishing the ages between 13 and 18 into half the time... and so now I'd best be done with it, or else.
Hugs,
Carolyn
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If he has to actively work to destroy the family members in order to indulge his heroic fantasy, then that's just the way it is. Narcissistic supply is far more important than the real needs of other people.
About the time my father was going through a "mid life crisis" and started claiming to be completely unhappy and unfulfilled in his job, all of a sudden there was a shift in the way he related to the FOO. Even though I was in my twenties at the time I started getting the "parenting by mail" letters and other infantilizing treatments. I was kind of bewildered at the time but now it makes sense... He had no where else to go to feed his fantasy life. :o
Instant recognition there, tjr... as though he made you his career... you, who were to be his coup d'grace (sp?)
That's what I was supposed to be for my mother, I guess... when my brother (10 yrs my senior) failed to be moldable.
And it's never clicked with me till I read you here, but "infantalizing treatments" .... yeah, I think I've done some of that myself, at times.
Maybe that's what is really going on with people who come across as "mothering" types, I dunno. There's mothering and then there's interfering and controlling.
But that's all I'd ever seen modeled, and it's what was presented to me by my mother as "the way to be" in order to accomplish anything in this life. Yikes. Will give this more thought... but yeah, I wonder whether we all don't do this to a certain extent... and sometimes think it's a form of intimacy... when in actuality it's nothing but an attempt to control?! Sheesh... making a human being our "mission" in life is just another way of objectifying him/her.
Thanks!
Carolyn