Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on February 10, 2008, 10:18:08 PM
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I kept telling the counselor that I wanted to face my part in Scott's death. I told her that I wanted to be honest with myself.
I had told Scott that I did not want to hear him talking about how he was 'dumb" and boring. I said that it was lies and I did not want to entertain lies ,as if they were truth.
She told me that I "disengaged " from Scott ,at that point and that layed the foundation for his death. What a freaking grief counselor she is (lol) I felt like she slapped me across the face and she did ,knowingly or unknowingly.
THEN, we did not go up and get Scott at school that day b/c he had said the same things many,many times.
She told me that I did not have a Mother's heart.
So, I , felt really horrible. I called GS,my special "grief" angel and she knew ,exactly what I was going through and I came back in to the land of the living.
I still feel very unsettled.
Ann may have been right about allowing Scott to talk about anything.I would do that ,now,but she was very harsh(too harsh for me ,anyway)
Then, I said that I wanted to face the truth ,without lies, She said,kind of nastily,'Don't worry, I will make sure you do" or s/thing like that---Nurse Ratchett--bleh.
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Something is terribly, terribly wrong with anyone suggesting to the mother of a child who committed suicide only a few weeks before that she did not have a mothering instinct. That is cruel beyond comprehension. I cannot even comprehend it. It is shocking and cruel and wrong.
She clearly has some strengths but she is in this case wrong.
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Reality therapy can happen in a year or two-now you need love and support and you have that with us ok?
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Thank you GS and Kelly,
I apppreciate it so, so much! Love, Ami
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Dear Ami,
Couldn't she see or even sense that you were hemmoraging on the inside?
I'm sending you serious hugs tonight.
tt
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Oh TT,
I have had the night to think about it. Ann is a minister, not a counselor. I kept telling her that I wanted to face the truth. I guess she took me at my word(lol)
After talking to people whom I love and trust, I realized that I will keep going with Ann. She has a lot to teach me. Either she was triggered and was nasty or she was just "honest" as I told her to be ,and it was too much for me.
GS helped me when I became a puddle on the floor.She mopped me up(lol)!
So,I will be careful when I tell Ann to be honest(lol) She told me ,at the beginning of the session, that she meets people where they are.She told me that she saw me as having a "maturity" ,so she could deal with me differently than my H,for example
She told me that I had a push forward toward life and I really appreciated her saying that.
I think that I will just put her "offensive" comments aside and go on with what she can teach me.
Actually, she is right about Scott. I let my H "have him". My H was grooming Scott to be "golden" and I stopped actively fighting it.I figured that it would be a stage.My H was trying to turn Scott against me (always)and I stopped ,actively, fighting this ,too.
I did keep telling Scott the truth the best that I could ,but Ann was right, I DID let my H "take over " Scott and I backed off. Ann was right.Of course, I did not know what would happen. Of course,if I could go back, I would fight like a lion, for him.
I let Scott down and Ann was right.
Ann said that, it doesn't matter,to God, if Scott got "there" a few years earlier. She said that Scott's being with God is merciful.
She prayed for me to put my 'mistakes' with Jesus and leave them there. She told me not to take them back. If God has them and told us He would take them and forgive us, ---Who are we to argue? It is pride to believe I am so bad that God can't forgive me. It is pride to take them back,after I gave them up.
Ann told me that my assignment is to nurture myself, with beauty (nature, music, art)etc. I have been punishing myself for not being "good enough" for my M ,for my whole life.
Ann told me that I must force myself to draw beauty in to my life and I will.
All in all, Ann is worth going forward with.
Thanks for caringTT, Kelly and GS(mopper ,lol) Love Ami
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Hello Ami:
I also think your counsellor sounds good, and she has a positive approach. I am sure she and you together will make great strides.
All the best to you.
Hermes
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She has many things to teach me. Thanks for your input ,Hermes, and all the kind and supportive posts! Love Ami
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Dear Ami,
You felt that God had led Ann to you, as you have said; "only the truth shall set you free"
While it does seems a little too sharp and soon -- i.e. most people would be perhaps working this through sometime later on.
However, I believe that God's timing is always perfect.
Ami, you asked for the truth, to be set free, and I believe in my heart, that you will.
Warm thoughts and wishes,
Leah x
"Shalom"
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Dear Leah,
. Truth IS the healer, whether or not the "timing" is right(lol). I can see the truth in what Ann says,now. I should have been fighting, more actively ,for Scott(using spiritual tools). I thought Scott would go through a stage and come out of it.In that sense, I let Scott down and "allowed" what happened to happen. Ann was right.It was a 'bite", yesterday, though.
Ann said s/thing very true, though. Reaching Heaven is the key and the most important thing. Scott did that and his life's timing is so much less important than his final destination. Thank God I have that peace, and I do. I introduced him to God, and that is the most important thing in anyone's life. Love, Ami
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Dear Ami,
I can relate in a sense, as when I was in counselling with a Christian Counsellor, sometime after I had come out of Spiritual Abuse etc., one time, it was like being slapped awake, "like being slapped with a wet kipper" LOL.
I sat there indignant thinking "call yourself a kind christian counsellor" ..... but, it was the best thing, for me! It was wakey wakey.
I had sought God for the truth, and He gave it me, though the truth included bits of me too!!!
The lady I had, sounds like your Ann.
In the world there is a term, which I think is maybe misunderstood .... "cruel to be kind" maybe that is it in a sense.
Maybe, the truth is cruel to feel, as it was for me that time, way back then, as I was lost, and could not find my way back to my Self.
God is in charge, and He knows what He is doing. Thank goodness!
As for your dear Scott, you did lead him to the Lord and salvation, the best gift for anyone. As a christian, I think the gift of salvation far outweighs the gift of healing, better to be saved, first and foremost. IMO.
Love, Leah x
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Yes, Ami. Truth is indeed the healer. And truth can be rather sharp, like the surgeon's scalpel that cuts away the diseased area to cure.
You have great courage, Ami, and you are not deterred by hearing what perhaps is hard to hear. That is a considerable gift.
All the best
Hermes
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Ami,
I have two thoughts about your counselor's approach.
First of all: .She told me that she saw me as having a "maturity" ,so she could deal with me differently than my H,
this tends to always bring RED FLAGS for me. When a leader years ago said to me "I just feel like you need a stronger arm to deal with you and that you can handle it. I'm just so much tougher on you and I feel guilty yet I know you can take it, but I'd never treat anyone ELSE this way, Laura"...when they say that, I RUN LIKE THE WIND, because it means an awful lot of "counsel" without "tact" and "concern for feelings" toward me.
I can't and won't tell you who to see for counseling, but I already don't like this lady's approach. If she is a minister, that is one HECK of a way to minister to someone! To blame you for Scott's death because you wanted him to only speak "whatsoever things are good, noble of a good report, etc" well that was not YOUR fault. That was about Scott wanting to have a pity party and drag you down with him. Maybe he needed meds or deliverance or some other help, but I KNOW how it is to talk to someone who uses constant ROTE responses and NEGATIVE ones at that! It can kill YOU let alone THEM.
You did the best you could with your son. Do not OWN the blame for his death. You did not kill him. HE killed himself by his own choice and hand.
I'm very disturbed by this lady's methods and not sure I'd call her a minister OR a counselor, personally.
I'm sorry you are going through such a thing, and I advise you to ask yourself if you are putting up with this, mainly because you feel a NEED to be punished or lambasted, to alleviate any personal guilt you already felt or does God INDEED really have you with her to teach you something about self or situation?
I don't know...
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
Hope you don't mind my asking this question, out of genuine interest,
as we all know here on board, as you have mentioned, that you are a Pastor who is Counsellor
which type of counselling do you use?
Thanks,
Leah x
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Leah,
I don't follow any one method, other than when it comes to the Bible. In that case, I tend to lean toward Full Gospel, knowing who you are in Christ. I am led by Holy Spirit in what I share with people. I have gone through various forms of training through the years as well. Other than the Bible, I use what I've gleaned from the following:
Evangelism training
Crisis Counseling
Lifesavers Ministries
Demonology
Personal mentoring
Classes in Psych, Abnormal Psych, Sociology
I'm one who does not believe that everyone has to go to seminary to be a minister, nor do I believe that counselors who have not gone to college, are not good counselors. In fact, many people who have gone to college, are more messed up as a result of it.
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Thank you, Laura, for your clear explanation. I don't have any questions. With consideration, I don't want to hijack or sidetrack Ami's important personal thread.
Very much appreciated.
Leah x
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She told me that I "disengaged " from Scott ,at that point and that layed the foundation for his death. What a freaking grief counselor she is (lol) I felt like she slapped me across the face and she did ,knowingly or unknowingly.
THEN, we did not go up and get Scott at school that day b/c he had said the same things many,many times.
She told me that I did not have a Mother's heart.
I don't see anything positive in what she said and I don't see that what she said was necessarily the truth. I think she is WRONG in saying that you "did not have a Mother's heart." I see that you have nothing but a mother's heart. I also don't see how she could possibly know that your disengaging lay the foundation for his death. Noone can be in his mind or his heart at the time of his death. Many things, many events, many people's actions could have led Scott to react in dispair.
Ami, allowing your husband to groom Scott to be a golden boy could have possibly been a good thing. You were not raising Scott or his brother in isolation. You were raising them in the context of your family, your community and the world. You and the counselor are looking at what happened to Scott by looking back. Hindsight shows things with more clarity. I find it harsh and judgmental to lay responsibility for his death at your feet. Had you had any clue what would you have done differently? Are you certain that if you could do them differently that he would be alive today? I don't believe that you can say so.
In every 12 step program I have read anything about and every intervention strategy I am familiar with it is made CLEAR that family, friends and others are NOT responsible for the addicts actions only the addict is. If Scott had been an addict and had died of an overdose he would have been held responsible. I think it is wrong to lay ANY responsibility at your feet.
Not only is it wrong but there is no good that can come of it. I am adamant that YOU are not responsible for Scott's death. Your actions did not lead to his death. If you could have done anything to help him you would have. If you knew anything would have been harmful to him you would have given anything to keep him from harm.
I will not give up my determination to fight against the message that you in any way caused him to commit suicide. I don't believe it and I see only profound damage that can come from such a supposition. Enough damage has already happened. Do not take this on Ami - it does not belong to you.
You must take care of yourself. You must find support and caring kindness. Let the verse "perfect love cast out fear" be the test. Is the message being sent to you from love or from fear? Love does not necessarily come in the form of softness and gentleness but even straight forward love when tested does not engender dark fear based emotions. Her words yesterday were shaming and demeaning and those are not based in love.
That doesn't mean that some of the things she said are not helpful and useful but these particular things are simply wrong.
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Ami-
I agree with Laura on this thread. As important as it is for us to face the truth about ourselves it is also important for us to be embraced with compassion and empathy. Before I make the assumption could you feel her compassion or love?
You can't transmit something that you have not got.
There might be a pattern here that fits something with your mom? You might have unconsciously picked or selected this woman.
God uses everything to draw us closer to him and he will use this woman to draw you closer to him even if she is harsh and triggers some pain.
To blame you for Scott's death because you wanted him to only speak "whatsoever things are good, noble of a good report, etc" well that was not YOUR fault.
Ami -- Scott's death was not your fault. God does not hold you accountable for his death, just the wounds that we inflict on each other. You did not inflict his death upon him, he made that choice.
Your willingness to face yourself and grow is tremendous but know that you deserve compassion, gentleness and great care at this time in your life.
Lise ((((((((((((((((AMI)))))))))))))))))
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I think she is WRONG in saying that you "did not have a Mother's heart." I see that you have nothing but a mother's heart.
GS is correct, I second this.
Lise
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Dear Ami:
Just to ask how you are. I hope your day is a peaceful one. You will find the way that is most appropriate for you, and the support you consider most suitable for yourself at this particular moment.
All the best.
Hermes
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Dear Ami,
I hear every word you wrote in reply to my post. My heart cries for you. Please be careful though about those you embrace as guides through your grief. In the case of Ann, I think I would want to know who she is accountable to where her work as counselor is concerned. I would want her to identify those people to me and I would want to know them and trust them as well as her.
You know that I am a Christian, but churches can become magnets for quacks. I'm not saying Ann is. I just want you to be very careful.
Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian any sooner than sitting in a Castle makes you a king.
I'm so glad Gaining Strength has provided refuge for you.
Much love,
tt
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Dear TT
Sound astute wisdom and advice for dear Ami.
Indeed, for one and all.
Resonate with accord.
Leah x
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Dear Laura, Leah, GS, Hermes and Lise,
Yesterday, I felt like Ann ran me over with a truck,,but today I feel peace about it b/c I decided to be real with her and let the chips fall where they may.
She called me and when she calls back ,I will tell her how I feel. If it ends,it ends and it will be OK.
My goal is to get "real" and be whole. I need to honor my feelings and "core",in order to get there.
So, it will be a step in growth no matter what happens with her.
I feel at peace that I survived a slap in the face without disintergrating. That was big,in itself.Thank you so much for your help. I am never alone, as long as I have my friends on the board.
Love, Ami
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Wow Ami! you amaze me, your growth, humility, fight and courage.
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Thank you,Lise.
I am seeing, with my heart, that we who had N M's(or any N) ARE worth s/thing. We are worth having a core, a self, a value. We were not taught to value ourselves, but that was a lie.
I have AS much value as any person I "admire". I have the same worth.
I had a revelation of that,today.
I need to keep building up my core,until one day, I will be fairly comfortable in it. That is my goal. Love Ami
PS However,when you are in a desperate hole(like Ann ,yesterday) you have to have people to call who will help pull you out when you are too weak.
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PS However,when you are in a desperate hole(like Ann ,yesterday) you have to have people to call who will help pull you out when you are too weak.
Exactly, yes. I was sooo weak yesterday. The entire day was spent obsessing over my pain and distress. It was as if my brain was attacking itself...I could not function.
After I finally called a friend of mine, who is real MFCC and a warm heart, I was able to get a grip, I was able to sleep last night, the first time in a long time.
Yes, friends - make all the difference.
(((((AMI)))))
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I have AS much value as any person I "admire". I have the same worth.
yes you do Ami. yes you do!!!
(Gabben what is a MFCC? It sounds obscene?"
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I used to think it was weak to need people. Now, I KNOW that I do and it is OK. We need each other and that is how we are made ,as humans. I am glad that you felt a little better,Lise. You ARE worth loving and affirming yourself ,Lise. Love Ami
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(Gabben what is a MFCC? It sounds obscene?"
LOL == Marriage Family Child Counselor.
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Oh Gabben - That's helpful. I read into it Mother Fu**** CC. Quite a far cry from Mother Child Counselor ......
I used to think it was weak to need people.
We cannot live without our need of others. Clearly you got that philosophy from your N mother. That breaks my heart that anyone would live believing that it is weak to need others. We can't live without others. And yet the more wounded we are the more rejected we are the more difficult it is to connect and be received by others the more rejected we are and round and round it goes. Doesn't it?
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And yet the more wounded we are the more rejected we are the more difficult it is to connect and be received by others the more rejected we are and round and round it goes. Doesn't it?
Hey GS, that is the story of my life, how did you know??? -- lol :lol: :lol:
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Dear GS,
You describe the cycle so well. I think that as I get a stronger core, I can be more vulnerable, and then I can let people in more. It is really sad when we are so shamed that we cannot let anyone in.
So many lies we believed as true! Love Ami
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So many lies we believed as true!
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Dear Izzy,
My deepest heart had been shut down to everyone.Now, it is opening. That is what I mean,Izzy . Ami
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"Need" is a bit like co-dependecy, if used with people. Agree? If you need people, it could be unhealthy emotionally.
I know what you mean....... and I think of the quote:
"Man cannot live by bread alone" meaning we ought to be interacting with other people.
Izzy, this seems contradictory!!
I definitely connect with Ami here. I see thaqt you have reached a place where you are able to live on your own but not everyone is abe to do that. I am thankful that you are able to live on your own and able to find some great peace in that but that is unusual. That Ami or anyone else needs people is actually reflected in the passage, "Noone is an island."
I don't hold Ami, nor me, nor anyone else in contempt for longing for nor needing others to help us live thi strange life. I support you and anyone in you strength to live alone. I also support anyone and myself in the hope of living in supportive need to be in relationship.
I bet we are not in disagreement about this. Let me know - yours - GS
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Dear Ami - I have just read this topic and hope to echo the cautions others have expressed. I have a lot of confidence in you being real with Ann and honest tomorrow. Ann, I don't know and don't have the same confidence.
I have a question though - How come she is so sure she knows the Truth. Lucky mortal! My goodness if I owned the certified Truth, I wonder what I could charge for it?
Also, I think it is wrong to demand a godlike responsibility of you. You are not omniscient and you are not omnipotent and you are not omnipresent. If you knew everything and could do anything and could be anywhere then your responsibility would be without limit. I am positive you have loved Scott every day of his life the best way you knew how that day, month and year and no more can be asked of us. We here have all seen your incredible drive to grow in love and truth and I am positive your kids had the benefit of it.
In my eyes it is a supportive thing to say true good things to someone and identify negative destructive lies as what they are. It is an action in good faith done for the benefit and nurturing of the health of another. Can you control the outcome? No. Maybe there was some confusion and miscommunication in phrasing about not wanting to hear negative lies or maybe Scott was so far gone that he blamed himself and held himself responsible for the very presence of negative beliefs in his mind. I can't know, except that I know what it is like to be suicidally depressed and have an N for a father, so... well maybe I do know a thing or too, in general.
I wish so much he didn't do it. I feel sure Scott had such a kind and loving heart and so much to offer and imo he took after his mom that way. (((Ami)))
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Dear GS,
As I get stronger inside(stronger core), I can be more vulnerable with others b/c I know that I will not be destroyed ,if they don't like me.I WILL be upset , even very unglued ,as with Ann, but I WILL get out of the pain s/how. I will find a friend to help;I will go to the Board; I will go to God;I will s/how not be totally destroyed by another person's rejection.
That is a wonderful step. It allows me to open my heart more---- to give love and recieve love.
I believe that no man is an island. I am seeing that ,truly ,it IS love that brings the beauty to life. I am opening up to love and I want to open up more so I can give and recieve more.
I see the way to open up is to get my core stronger and stronger,so I don't have to continually gaze at my navel to determine if I am OK.
GS,I appreciate your post about "NO man is an island". You understood what I was saying.
Izzy, we are each on our own journeys,in our own ways.I started my journey ,on the board, to find my core. I am doing that,slowly.Now, I see that the next step is to get out of myself and give . I am not quite there,yet,but I see it beckoning out in the future. Love Ami
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Oh Iphi,
My Goodness, you touched me so much with your words. Thank You.
I have not talked to Ann ,yet. She did not call back. Thanks to many friends, here, I figured out what to say to her. I am going to be totally honest. I will tell her that she has given me so much. However,I think that she victimized me b/c she was triggered by my pain about Scott. She "lashed ' out at me when I was telling her about Scott's last day.My intuitive feeling about what happened was that she got triggered by all the pain.
She was with me for 3 hours. I could see that the subject was taking a toll on her.
What I will take away from the situation is that I CAN survive a counselor's abuse(with a little help from my friends); I can stand up and tell her my feelings. I will or will not continue,but I learned to have a stronger core, which was my overall goal. So, Ann did not deter me in my overall objective.She has not hurt me, in any permanent way.I learned that I can survive abuse from a counselor---bleh.
When she lashed out at me, God had s/one who was sent to help me. That person had a sense to help me from the beginning of my ordeal with Scott.
So, I have to have faith that things are planned .
I am more and more convinced that I have to keep strengthening my core, as you would a muscle, and from that I will go in the right direction. I am so glad that you are back and posting more, Iphi.Thank you, again, for those beautiful words. Love Ami