Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: hardtotrust on February 16, 2008, 05:55:23 PM
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Hi,
I am somewhat reluctant to share my present problem here, because I have been discussing it with some people and most do not seem to understand it.
I am sure most here have heard, when looking for friendship and validation, comments like “if it was that bad, why did you put up with it?”, that really doesn’t help, to say the least.
But since most people here have been through horrific relationships, I guess they will understand what is happening.
Well, let’s get started. Understand that many things here were not known at the time they happened.
After a long life filled with narcissists, beginning with parents, I was in a point in my life in which I thought I had reached the record of crazy-making relationships and nothing worse could happen.
Of course I was wrong.
What happened is a little complex and it isn’t possible to explain it in a single post, but let’s move on.
Since it would take a looooooooong time telling all the story, I will start a little bluntly, just stating the present situation and adding more information for those who may want to help.
My N ex girlfriend, let’s name her Tina, got pregnant last year. It was completely welcomed. Two days later I watch as she and her mother discuss the “guest list”. A day later I am asked if I wanted to get married this day or that day. It was strange, but since I loved her and there was a baby coming, I didn’t bother to discuss it.
But some days later we decided to cancel it.
At the same day, she sent me away. She said she wanted “to be alone for the moment”, which she confirmed later. I was trying to talk to her about how we were going to deal with the situation, but she received a call and had to go out and buy a parrot :shock:. I mean it, I am not joking. Her mother supported her and told her she wanted to go along.
Now, two months later, she is still pregnant and we are not seeing each other. Actually, there are so many bad things that happened, that I really think is best for me to never see her again, avoiding humiliation being the first reason.
The first problem is that later I found a lot of reasons to be suspicious of who the father of the child is.
Now, I am in a tight spot, because if I am not near during the pregnancy, I may feel guilty later if I find out it is my baby. But if I stay close, it is very dangerous for me, the relationship was so humiliating, she made me feel suicidal. Also, people warned me that even if the baby is not mine, I may get attached and won’t be able to get away (we know that it is already very difficult to get away from the N him/herself).
It has been an extremely hurtful situation. In the beginning it was devastating to see any pregnant woman or small baby.
Depression hit very hard.
What now? It is not possible to discuss things with her, it is her way or...
Even if she compromises, she forgets whatever she said a moment later.
Any comments?
Thank you.
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Dear Hardtotrust,
I hear your anguish and heartache, I'm sorry that you are going through this.
For me I want to hear more of the story. For instance I was a bit confused, I mean, did Tina ever really give you a clear reason as to why she is avoiding you, if that is what she is doing? It seems that she just broke things off rather sudden and without any explanation, unless I am missing something? It must hurt.
Can you explain why she broke-up,if indeed you are the father, or why she is being so obtuse.
It seems that she cheated on you?
Forgive me for all of the questions.
I'm sorry to hear that you have had to suffer the N pains too.
Thanks for trusting us enough to share your story.
Lise
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Hi, Hardtotrust,
When a situation is as complex as this, my first instinct is to look into practical options.
Possibly you might research the laws in your state as they pertain to paternity?
I don't know whether the duration of the relationship factors in to the legalities or what sort of tests might be done and when... but if Tina is personality disordered, it's highly unlikely that you'll get the truth from her.
For your own sake and for the benefit of the child, it seems important to establish paternity asap... do you think?
Do you know when the baby is due?
I am so sorry... wish there were a simple solution. I hope you'll post and share here as much as you feel comfortable and just get some of your concerns and pain out into the open air. That alone does so much to ease the load, I know.
Take good care,
Carolyn
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I am sorry , Hardtotrust, for all the pain and stress you are experiencing. It sounds like it is a complicated situation. The other posts gave wise suggestions. My heart goes out to you. Ami
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did Tina ever really give you a clear reason as to why she is avoiding you, if that is what she is doing? It seems that she just broke things off rather sudden and without any explanation, unless I am missing something? It must hurt.
Can you explain why she broke-up,if indeed you are the father, or why she is being so obtuse.
Well Gabben, as it happens with Ns, nothing is clear about her motives. Let me explain what happened at the end.
On a Sunday, we were looking for a house to buy. While we were at it a guy called her, asking her to go out on a date. I found that extremely disgusting, because although we had been together for only about 2 months, it was strange that someone was still calling her.
Besides that, I have to mention that during our relationship, I discovered a lot of signs (including her own stories) and received information that she was extremely promiscuous before.
For starters, she was never able to end contact with her former ex’s, affairs etc. For example, one day as we checked her e-mail, there was one in which a guy patient of her lamented that she couldn’t made it to their date, but he was looking forward to it. As Ns regularly do, she stated that he was crazy, that he discovered her e-mail and made it up.
There’s A LOT more about this subject.
When she received that call, I got sickened by her behavior. After she hang up, she said, with some pleasure “Wow, it’s the third that has called me”. I told her “Listen, we may get married because of the child, but we won’t live together, because I won’t be able to watch things like this happening everyday”.
Later that day I saw that she had received a message on Orkut from one of her former lovers (20 years old, she was 35). The message itself wasn’t intimate, but still it was contact, which I repeatedly asked her to break in order to show that she had changed her ways. The answer was always the same “You have a confidence problem. I know what I am doing”. BTW she didn’t have the same confidence the day A MALE FRIEND of mine called me to go out on a Saturday night, it was like an earthquake.
The following day I phoned her and told her “My baby isn’t going to grow up in a promiscuous environment”. Answer: “Don’t try to take her away from me. Listen, the moment I choose I can take it off and get another one”.
After an extremely long list of evil things that happened for the short time we were together (as a couple, actually I had met her about 7 years before), I decided that if I married her I would have to divorce soon after, so I gathered the courage to tell her that I wanted the legal/civil marriage canceled (there was still the more social/public ceremony).
The day after, I went to her house to talk. That’s when her mother intervened and announced that the ceremony would be canceled, because most things couldn’t be available in such short notice at the end of the year and she wanted the best for her daughter. She told us to postpone it and marry after the baby was born.
Then there was the call about the parrot. Tina told me we were going to talk later.
Later I phoned her and she told me she wanted “to be alone for the moment”. I told her things couldn’t be that way and it would be definitive. She didn’t argue. I phoned her again, tried some suggestions, she didn’t change her position.
On the same day she phoned me, asked me to take my things away from her home.
A few days later, desperate, I phoned her and asked to see her. She received me as sometimes before, talking about herself, how many patients she had, the things she had to do etc. After some time I went away.
On that night she called me and I asked about her and the baby. I told her I was going there to visit the baby. She resisted and didn’t let me in her house. I had to knee down at the garage and talk to the baby “Someone told me today how we are going to meet. I am dying to hear your cry”. (a friend of mine had had a dream about me and the baby).
On the following Sunday, I phoned her and she made it clear that she wanted things to stay as they were.
I am telling you these things because about a month later she called me, her aunt at her side, from her aunt’s house and “invited” me to go to the next ultrasound. I argued that she had sent me away.
She told me “you know pregnant women act differently”. That would be her first excuse. The second one is that “I was controlling her” (meaning I wanted her to break contact with former lovers).
So, yes, she did break contact without any explanation and later, when questioned, came with these excuses.
It seems that she cheated on you?
I am very positive about that. There are a thousand signs. For example, the second day we were formally dating, I was at her house in the morning. We had intimate moments. After that, I went out to buy a notebook for her and lunch for my mother. She said she was going to stay to help her mother. A few hours later, she wasn't there. She had gone to her ex's house, she later admitted.
Possibly you might research the laws in your state as they pertain to paternity?
Yes, CH, I have been researching. I may have the chance to force a DNA exam.
For your own sake and for the benefit of the child, it seems important to establish paternity asap... do you think?
I completely agree. If I find that it is not mine, I may have some closure. If it is mine, I will have to deal with this craziness the rest of my life, but my baby will be a blessing!
Do you know when the baby is due?
From the moment we decided to try to conceive, I took care of all of the pertaining information, including her cycles. The baby is due on August, 5th, but I believe she will arrive a little sooner.
Thank you for your posts, Gabben, CH and AMI. Right now I see how much I still need to get off my chest.
Thank you.
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Wow, Hardto trust.
You have a full plate. I wish I had s/thing more to offer than support and words.Right now, you seem to be doing the best that you can with what you have.
Did you say that you "planned " to have the baby?
Maybe I am wrong to ask, but do you think it was 'wise" to plan a baby in these precarious circumstances?
Maybe, I missed some of the details. I am not "all here",right now.
Keep writing about the pain, stress, heartache, ups and downs. You will get advice, shared hope and experience and it does help, even when the "actual" life circumstances can't be changed. My heart goes out to you, Hardto trust. Warmly, Ami
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Did you say that you "planned " to have the baby?
Yes, Ami.
We had known each other for many years, most of them just as friends, no special connection. I noticed she had some problems, but it didn't look like they were bigger than my own.
Then came her “crisis”, her therapy, the moment she overflowed me with promises, compliments, dreams, plans etc.
That's when we decided to give the relationship a try. I am 40, she was 35, we are successful, all we missed was a solid relationship and family. So, later, as we talked about our desire to have babies and since we already knew each other for a long time, we decided not to use contraception methods.
From that point on, my desire to have a child grew up, due mainly to two reasons: first, my age, I already had waited too long (solving my own family issues, I was terrified of repeating my family history). Second, during the whole relationship, I had stomach and digestive problems, losing about 25 pounds. There was a friend of mine doing chemo. I got afraid I had cancer. I got really scared I wouldn't have another chance in the following years, at least.
The day we found out she was pregnant was the happiest day of my life. For me it was unbelievable. I was raised to be invisible, but now I would have my own family.
There's also a third reason, maybe the worst. Before the relationship I was having sessions with a NLP therapist. It helped me a lot.
But then she went to the same therapist. And the therapist who had helped me a lot with my personal issues, decided to push for the relationship (later I discovered he always does this with everybody). So, believe it or not, instead of helping me to analyze why I was in a relationship that was no good for me, he invested all our time in trying to convincing me that everything was fine, I had to stop being negative and that I had to go for my happiness...
I had a lot of confidence in him, due to our previous work. But in the end, I found out he was the perfect N assistant, confusing me.
All these things together, besides my feelings for her, prevented me from getting out earlier.
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Dear Hardtotrust,
About this:
The following day I phoned her and told her “My baby isn’t going to grow up in a promiscuous environment”. Answer: “Don’t try to take her away from me. Listen, the moment I choose I can take it off and get another one”.
Is she saying that she can abort this baby any time she wants?
I'm so sorry... she really does sound like a trip... and so does her mother.
Carolyn
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Is she saying that she can abort this baby any time she wants?
I'm so sorry... she really does sound like a trip... and so does her mother.
Exactly, that's what she said. :(
She learned that she can always get away with everything she does/says, like "joking" after we scheduled the wedding that her "dream was to become a widow".
About her mother, it took me a long time to notice something wrong.
Apparently, it is a successful family, everything perfect. But then I started to notice that her family, especially her mother supports EVERYTHING she does (like interrupting the conversation about the baby's future to go buy a pet or going to the ex’s house in the middle of a relationship). I also noticed that there were no hugs, sweet words, healthy exchange between the two. It was always about “I want you to help me buy this or that this afternoon”, no personal interaction. The daughter was something to be shown and appreciated, adored (she is pretty). Talk about false self! Many female friends asked me why didn’t the mother phoned me to talk about the situation, they said it would be the expected thing to do. I was surprised.
But the plot thickens.
Apparently, there are two main reasons she decided to have the baby.
First, she was getting closer to the age at which hormonal changes happens and she had decided to get pregnant anyway before her birthday on January 08, she even considered going to a semen bank before.
Second, her mother wanted it. All of her friends had pictures of her grandsons/daughters to show, she didn’t. BTW, when they were planning the marriage, her mother had a Freudian slip when talking to the people organizing another marriage, her mother said “MINE will be on December, 27th”.
Now, I would love to be doing all a father can do. But I don't know what to do. I am thinking maybe the best solution is to wait and be there for my baby when the time arrives.
All I can do now is follow the pregnancy by internet sites which explain what is happening every week.
Thank you for all help.
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Again, I am so sorry, Hardtotrust. The more I read, the bigger mess it appears to be. You don't seem to fit anywhere into these peoples' picture of the future... only as an elementary part of their grand plan. Your work is done, as far as they're concerned, I'm afraid.
I think that the very best thing you can do is retain legal counsel and proceed to determine paternity... then take it from there.
This will likely be a battle all the way.
With sympathy,
Carolyn
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I'm sorry too, Hardtotrust.
I'm sorry for the baby that will be born into that family.
I agree with those who suggest a DNA test asap.
I would make that your absolute first priority.
Rather than worry about how to relate to her or her family right now, I think you need to see a lawyer who is expert in adoptive and family and paternity issues.
And on the good chance that this is your child, I think every single action you take from now on should be with the goal of joint custody of your child in mind. Every single one.
Document everything. Get a binder and take notes. Leave any emotion out of the document except love and concern for the child. Ask this lawyer exactly how to proceed.
You have a lot of love to give a child. The relationship with her/his mother is not good for you. But being a father can still be.
Fight for that.
(And should it not be your baby, you are free of a toxic family and can then move forward to adopt a child on your own.)
hope these thoughts help some,
Hopalong
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Dear Hardto trust,
I just wanted to say that I am not judging,at all, b/c I have made many errors in judgement,in my life(MUCHO). You have gotten wise answers,here.
Just keep writing and reaching out b/c you will find support in all the phases that you must walk through.With best wishes and thoughts for you, Hardtotrust. Ami
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Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, CH.
That’s one of the reasons I have been so depressed, realizing how much I have been used. All I wanted now was a time machine to go back in time and dispatch her the very first moment she disrespected me, no excuses this time.
I am so ashamed what I made myself put up with. It wasn’t necessary. Every morning is a struggle to get up and face the world, always afraid to find her or someone of her family and be humiliated again.
Yes, Hopalong, DNA is a priority. In one of the few messages we exchanged, I asked her to do the pre-natal DNA, which she later declined, which is ok, because there is a small risk to the baby. She said it will be done when the baby is born, but everything she says she will do, you can expect the opposite. I loved all your advice, thank you.
Thank you, Ami.
You all helped me a lot, listening, validating and suggesting.
Hugs.
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Dear hardtotrust,
Through legal counsel, you may be able to get a court order put into place which will ensure that the baby is tested for paternity
at the safest possible time for the little one. With that settled, it wouldn't be up to her (or her mother's) whimsy.
That aside, I can only imagine how difficult this is for you, not knowing... on top of trying to deal with the heartache.
Just wanted to tell you that you sound like a person with such an open heart...
even if you can't find out whether you're the father till after birth, I'm betting that you have the stuff it takes to bond with your son or daughter then. In the meanwhile, I hope you'll continue to share here and receive all the support and encouragement we can offer.
Recovering from the shock of having been tangled in the web of a disordered individual is no small task, and loaded with hurdles.
What you said about being ashamed... of what you made yourself put up with... I understand.
But the shame isn't yours... it's hers to bear and I pray that you'll push it off of yourself just as another new poster here
described recently. Have you read posts by "nogadge" here? You might appreciate those...
and just keep reading and posting, because it's so good to both purge your system of these toxins and to find community here.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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the little one
I loved that phrase! I am melting down... thinking about this little boy/girl.
I imagine it happening like this picture: http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Image:FatherAndNewborn.jpg
That aside, I can only imagine how difficult this is for you, not knowing... on top of trying to deal with the heartache.
Thank you for understanding, it's been really hard dealing with all these things together. The loss of my girlfriend, the loss of the promised family, the loss of the fatherhood and partnership during the pregnancy.
Not knowing is really hard. Impossible to have closure.
If you already think it is a big mess, allow me to add some information.
A month before she got pregnant, I did a fertility exam. The result was awful. It would be very hard for her to get pregnant. I didn’t tell her about the result.
I researched, changed habits, bought supplements, changed clothes and meals, everything that could help. I was going to do a second exam, she got pregnant.
The she sent me away.
A little voice in my head kept telling me to do the second exam. I did. The results were even worse. I did a third exam later, almost the same thing.
Judging by these exams and her behavior, probably the child isn’t mine.
But last week I saw another Doctor. I did another kind of exam, found out I have to go through surgery to improve fertility.
Well, it was almost settled. It could hardly be mine. But then came the result of another fertility exam: it was unbelievably high. Much better than one I had done years before, higher than anything I read about on the internet.
And now? These results may vary daily. In the end, it is impossible to know. I’ll have to wait for the DNA, going through these extremes.
Just wanted to tell you that you sound like a person with such an open heart...
even if you can't find out whether you're the father till after birth, I'm betting that you have the stuff it takes to bond with your son or daughter then. In the meanwhile, I hope you'll continue to share here and receive all the support and encouragement we can offer.
Although I feel guilty and at the same time shortchanged for not being there during the pregnancy, if there isn't a clear conversation with her about everything, I guess it will be wiser to wait and do all that I can at the right moment.
Right now, I am postponing a decision about building or not a house. If the baby is mine, I'll build it thinking about her.
I have heard that the baby really needs the father after the first year, hope that's true, although I intend to be there much earlier.
Recovering from the shock of having been tangled in the web of a disordered individual is no small task, and loaded with hurdles.
What you said about being ashamed... of what you made yourself put up with... I understand.
But the shame isn't yours... it's hers to bear and I pray that you'll push it off of yourself just as another new poster here
described recently. Have you read posts by "nogadge" here? You might appreciate those...
and just keep reading and posting, because it's so good to both purge your system of these toxins and to find community here.
I have read these posts.
Thank you very much, all the help I have been receiving here has been incredible.
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FYI -- Hardtotrust,
I have not forgotten about your thread as I am still reading and working on my response to you.
Lise
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Thank you, Lise.
I am feeling somewhat disoriented today, it's good to know there's someone trying to help.
I am looking forward to your response.
Hugs.
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When she received that call, I got sickened by her behavior. After she hang up, she said, with some pleasure “Wow, it's the third that has called me”. I told her “Listen, we may get married because of the child, but we won’t live together, because I won’t be able to watch things like this happening everyday.
Could this statement from you to her "won't live together" have been a red flag for her that you were on to her?
N's love to be admired, adored, valued etc.. your seeing under her wool so to speak was like putting a pin in the N supply balloon for her.
The following day I phoned her and told her “My baby isn’t going to grow up in a promiscuous environment. Answer: “Don’t try to take her away from me. Listen, the moment I choose I can take it off and get another one”.
Once again you were setting limits, very reasonable limits and expectations for a normal relationship with a normal person but the problem is that she is NOT normal and getting your normal brain around that fact can be really difficult especially when you have feelings for the person.
What has to be even more painful for you is the baby, not knowing, or knowing...it has to be just down right frustrating at times and anguishing.
So the baby's due date is August? I'm still unclear.
It sounds to me like you are moving on from her and have been moving on from her for quite a while? Your just in need of talking about this because that is what N's leave you with, a mess of emotions and confusion and pain to sort out. Also, not to mention the possibility of your baby, the desire to take responsibility for your baby and the not know about.
Please keep us posted. I'll be following as best I can.
Lise
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Could this statement from you to her "won't live together" have been a red flag for her that you were on to her?
N's love to be admired, adored, valued etc.. your seeing under her wool so to speak was like putting a pin in the N supply balloon for her.
Sure. I agree. From that point on, everything changed.
It was the first time I didn't accept her excuses and I didn't ask for something (not that asking for something was OK, it never produced any result, the few times I did it).
This time I made a decision.
A few days later, when I told her I wanted to cancel the legal marriage (there would still be the religious/social ceremony) due to her contacts, it must have been too much. She is the kind of N that all things must be 100% (at least) her way. Even the therapist we were seeing (the one that helped her a lot with her plans) in the end acknowledged that in order to make the relationship work I would have to give in, give in, give in, give in... expecting nothing in return.
So, the first plausible explanation for sending me away would be that, knowing how much I was submissive before, and now, having my baby, that I was crazy for, she certainly thought I would come crawling back, even more submissive, no questions asked.
But nobody, even another therapist that classifies her problems as Narcissism and Perversion (in the Freudian sense), thinks this possibility could explain her present behavior. They say that she would be using the pregnancy to manipulate me completely (and that would work, I have to admit).
So now almost everyone thinks she is not sure which guy is the father, and after I didn't buy into the hurried marriage (= woke up = saw under her wool), she talked to her mother and they decided to keep a low profile and avoid conversations till everything clears up. In the meantime, it is possible that she went after the other guy and he just brushed her off. But, in my opinion she is strangely quiet, she wouldn't act like this if she were alone, she can't stand it.
But these are nothing but possibilities, it could be even possible that she really is sure that I am the father, there's no other guy and it is just one of her crazy behaviors, who knows.
What has to be even more painful for you is the baby, not knowing, or knowing...it has to be just down right frustrating at times and anguishing.
So the baby's due date is August? I'm still unclear.
Exactly. Some days I am sure I am the father. Other days I am sure I am not. Sometimes I remember things that happened (including some good) and it is despairing. It is still very harrowing to see pregnant women and babies.
Yes, the date is August, 5th. But I think it will happen before (she is small, first pregnancy, she was born prematurely).
It sounds to me like you are moving on from her and have been moving on from her for quite a while? Your just in need of talking about this because that is what N's leave you with, a mess of emotions and confusion and pain to sort out. Also, not to mention the possibility of your baby, the desire to take responsibility for your baby and the not know about.
Yes, I have been moving on from her and it has not been easy, although her distance is helping me. If she had called me and told me that she really wanted to talk, I wouldn't be able to say no.
Thank you, Lise
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Right now, I wish so much it's my baby... I would love to hold the little one in my arms and say how much I love her/him...
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Oh Hardtotrust
You sound like a sweet, sensitive man. I hate to see you hurting.My intuition is that it IS your baby, hardtotrust. It is beautiful how you seem to love the baby ,already.I really hope that you are the dad. Love to you, Ami
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ami. I got very involved with the idea of the baby. Every day I would spend a few hours researching about everything related to pregnancy. Every night we were together, I would sleep hugging her and placing my hand on her belly, thinking about the baby.
It's not easy to let it go, besides the usual problems of being abandoned by the N.
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Yesterday she sent me two e-mails, just forwarding something about animal rights, inviting me to sign a petition, not a personal word.
Just checking?
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She was probably bored and looking for a little drama when she e mailed you.
Maybe you're on her auto mailing list?
Sorry you're in so much pain.
Hops gave some very good advice.
DNA test as soon as possible so you can make approrpriate decisions and quickly.
Good luck
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Hi Lighter!
It is quite possible she was bored.
No, it was not an auto mailing list, it was a personal e-mail, she is used to send small notes to every one (especially guys) every other day, that she calls "courtesies".
Thank you for your empathy!
Sure, DNA is number one on the list. She said she will do it right after the birth. Translation: FORGET IT!!! If necessary, I will take legal measures.
I answered her e-mail by SMS (I don't want to use her e-mail anymore, actually it is a joint e-mail account, hers and her brother's...)
I asked her if she was going to take a course for pregnant women. She liked the idea and signed in. But today my worst fear happened. She asked me if I wanted to take the course too.
Sure I wanted to. But if I get involved now, I won't be able to get out later. And if the baby isn't mine, it will be too late... (I have heard some stories about that). Also, it is in my best interest to stay away from her. As she herself said, my relationship with the baby has nothing to do with the relationship with her, so I guess I'll just wait. She sent me another SMS a few minutes ago, thanking for the suggestion.
Yesterday a friend's daughter was born. A knot in my stomach as I was shopping for a small dress, as I listened to the stories of the delivery and so on...
Wow, and today I saw a young mother with a "kangaroo", carrying a baby! Cool! Had to ask her about it. If the baby is mine, it is in the shopping list.
Hugs.
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Oh Hardto trust,
It is so sweet to see a man so excited about a baby. It warms my heart! Love to you, Ami
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Ummmm..... I used to collect baby clothes as a sort of hobby.
Can't explain it but it was satisfying and I gave myself permission to do it, without judgment long before I ever consideredhaving children.
Believe me...... it'll easier and cheaper so stick with that until you get the results of that DNA test.
Give yourself permission to be the best father you possibly can be.....
after the DNA test.
K?
If you can avoid turmoil, heartbreak and craziness.....
I think you should.
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Just thinking of you, Hardtotrust.Sending you peace and well wishes. Warmly, Ami
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Right now, really sad. :(
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I'm so sorry there's sadness for you now.
But that's to be expected.
You're dealing with the demise of a relationship, ( or rater, an idea of a relationship) and the possible demise of a parental relationship (you've already embraced and fallen in love with.
It's a terrible thing to realize that your reality isn't anything like you wanted it to be.
You question yourself and ability to make decisions..... care for yourself in the future..... make better choices.
Be sad.
Cry.
Scream and rage.... complain here.
Then make a very good plan you can stick with, no matter how low or fragile you get.
If you don't take control of your life...... you'll lose it.
Be careful of visits to your e mail.
I'd suggest no contact with this woman, once again, till after the DNA test.
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Thank you, thank you.
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I was just trying to get ready to answer the last posts, I received one SMS from her:
"You always judged me and condemned me. hard for me to share my expectations. believe time and god will appease my heart. far be it from me playing the victim."
:shock:
I thought about complaining, remembering things she did and said etc, but decided to send something different:
"Cool, God can do everything for you, if you are in the mood to follow Him. Happy to hear that.Your expectations and longings were always satisfied and will continue to be. Right now everything is the way you chose them to be. Best wishes for you and the baby. I didn't forget what I heard about you being a great mother, it is a beautiful process."
Answer:
"Understood. be at peace, it's everything I also wish at this moment."
Frankly, I have no idea what she's thinking about. Looks like a test to see if I would run and try to talk to her about her expectations, without her having to talk, discuss about what happened before.
Earlier today, I was capable of remembering her and not having bad feelings, although I didn't forget how unworthy I was to her.
One thing is for sure, I have to admit. If she really wants me by her side during the pregnancy, I won't be able to say no. So far, so good, because she is still seated on her throne, waiting for me to go after her. For example, she never said she was sorry, that she needed me to help her or that she wanted to talk. The closer she got to was this message.
But if she takes a more direct approach... :?
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Wow Hardtotrust,
What a nightmare you're in. I don't even get most of it, but what I do shocks me.
I don't get them at all, the girlfriend, the mother, the lovers, the lot. They all sound severely damaged to me. I'm worried for the baby and the environment he or she is coming into with that lot.
If bubba is your, (hopefully you can find out DNA) I hope you can get sufficiently supported and boundaried to offer bubba the best possible world in that 'problemarena'.
Please believe this - Just a healthy pappa alone can make all the difference and a happy life for a child .
But, as my old italian neighbour would say, "Yous a gonna needa lotta helpa".
I totally agree with what Izzy said, "I have been following this and would like for you to be the father. You two will never be a couple? She is an N? She will want what she wants!"
Unless she un-enmeshes from her mumma, gets help, learns to recognize her needs and need for male adoration is problematic, and unless she is serious about a life with you and gets help then there is not much hope of any happy life for you with her. It takes 2. That probably hurts but maybe not as much as the hurt that you're in for with more of the same from her.
What do you want Htt? Do you want a life with he problemsr? What's realistic for you?
But then, if bubba is yours, and is real, that's fantastic too and
CONGRATULATIONS!
Pop the champers somebody , Hardtotrust is maybe gonna be a pappa.
If it was me, I'd get over her real fast, then I'd become very bottom-line quickly, and get the wheels turning to give my child every opportunity for a healthy, heard and happy life - considering and regardless :x- of the other players.
Big challenges and changes ahead for you. I hope you're okay. I'll read again later. Like I said, I don't get a lot of it.
Life is full of absurdities isn't it? Sometimes I think children are the only ones who 'get it".
I read this truly superb saying once - "Children are the ultimate Zen Masters". That is so so true.
((HTT))
Papillon
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((((((((((((Hardtotrust)))))))))))))
From her messages alone, she seem very,very hard to deal with.
You sound like you have good sense, hardtotrust.
The baby is fortunate to have you.
Do you still love her and are hoping for a relationship with her or have you given up that hope and are only focused on the baby?
Ami
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::slapping forehead::
Ummmm... htt....
It sounds like you're not going to be able to keep a No Contact rule in place, keep your distance in the delivery room and that she'll have anything she desires from you.
She just may have to endure some whining, while she manipulates it forth.
Good luck with that.
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Oh Hardto trust,
It is so sweet to see a man so excited about a baby. It warms my heart! Love to you, Ami
Thank you, Ami. I guess I have never developed this side of my personality. I was the youngest of two brothers, there wasn't a baby around to get used to. Then, I was always afraid to have a baby, because I felt like I couldn't protect myself, imagine a baby. Now, in the last few years, I think everything repressed about forming a family is coming back full force. But I know it will be a challenge for me, one that I am willing to face as soon as possible.
Ummmm..... I used to collect baby clothes as a sort of hobby.
...
Give yourself permission to be the best father you possibly can be.....
after the DNA test.
K?
If you can avoid turmoil, heartbreak and craziness.....
I think you should.
Cool. I remember now, a few years ago, knowing that she started thinking about babies, I bought her a pair of baby shoes. She had an on-and-off relationship, I was her friend. It was my contribution to her at the time, the first step.
Ok, the rational thing is to wait for the DNA. I am really afraid of what will happen if I let myself be used and discarded again (if the baby isn't mine). I don't know if I will be able to forgive myself. But right now, I am very fragile.
Just thinking of you, Hardtotrust.Sending you peace and well wishes. Warmly, Ami
Thank you again, Ami. Yesterday I wasn't down, but I was so sad... I felt like crying all the time, had to hide many times at work. The messages here helped me a lot.
...
Be sad.
Cry.
Scream and rage.... complain here.
Then make a very good plan you can stick with, no matter how low or fragile you get.
If you don't take control of your life...... you'll lose it.
...
Wow, Lighter, your post is simply wonderful, I'll read it many times, because I feel you said all the right things and since I am not very rational today, I really need some references.
I have been following this and would like for you to be the father. You two will never be a couple? She is an N? She will want what she wants! Are you nervous about that part of it, if the baby is yours?
Oh, Izzy, thank you. At first I would rather the baby isn't mine. Then there was doubt. Now I really want to be the father.
Yes, she is the most narcissistic person I ever met. Of course I only discovered the degree of narcissism after we started a relationship. I knew before she had problems, but never thought they were bigger than mine. The baby is due August, 5th.
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I hope you can get sufficiently supported and boundaried to offer bubba the best possible world in that 'problemarena'.
Please believe this - Just a healthy pappa alone can make all the difference and a happy life for a child .
Papillon, those two phrases will become my mantras!!! That's all I have to cling to in this relationship.
Wow, everything you said is wonderful and wise, I'll read it again many times.
Thank you, thank you.
((((((((((((Hardtotrust)))))))))))))
From her messages alone, she seem very,very hard to deal with.
You sound like you have good sense, hardtotrust.
The baby is fortunate to have you.
Do you still love her and are hoping for a relationship with her or have you given up that hope and are only focused on the baby?
Ami
Thank you, Ami. Thank you.
I hope I can make a difference in my baby's life, the way Papillon explained.
I really don't know what I feel for her right now, but my plans are all for the baby, not including her.
::slapping forehead::
....
...keep your distance in the delivery room and that she'll have anything she desires from you.
She just may have to endure some whining, while she manipulates it forth.
Lighter, I'm not sure I understood what you meant. Could you explain it to me a little more?
Thank you.
Thanks everybody for all the support.
Right now I feel uneasy, don't understand what's happening.
Hugs.
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Your N is reaching out her feelers..... getting your attention..... having you engage with her in crazy making conversation..... so you're becoming more confused.
Instead, why not assume she's trying to engage with you, to confuse you, choose not to have any contact at all.....
by that I mean ZERO contact.
No e mail.
No Im's
No phone no face to face no messages from friends or relatives or nurses or the guy at the post office who's friendly with you both.
Just know that any contact is a trap and that if you engage you won't feel better you'll feel worse and more confused and you can't escape what bad feelings you have now by being in contact with her....
so get that straight in your mind and stop letting her drag you in.
If your plan is really to wait this out till the DNA test.... then do that.
If it's not..... then jump in anywhere.
It's up to you to set self protective boundaries.
The N wants to tear them down and it sounds like she'll be able to.... that you already know that and accept it.
I'm telling you what I see from here and the phrase....
"you can't save people from themselves" comes to mind.
I don't always dispence feel good advice..... if it's making you uncomfortable say so and I'll stop with the reality posts.
Beware women who approach you in your e mail. That's my last piece of advice on this post.
(((hardtotrust))) I understand where you are and I'm so sorry it has to hurt so much.
Lighter
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I just had a talk to a friend and...
Ouch! Back to earth!
It was shattering. We talked about the NLP "psychotherapist" that my ex-girlfriend and I went to last year. He was a key element in making me stay in the relationship.
It turns out he looks like an N, too. Has a long story of different "personas" (supermarket owner, car dealer, councilman etc), much like Sam Vaknim explains. Now he is acting like a cult leader, promising the cure to all your problems and even taking people off their medications. But many people are discovering the truth. He is not even a licensed therapist. This story itself could fill a book.
When my ex and I were together, one day she told me, while we were in her room, "Next session I will throw a condom on the table and tell him, If you want to do it, now is the time". As I was trying to recover from the shock, she said "Come on, you know I'm joking, I don't even use condoms".
Remembering these things and thinking about the possibilities, I woke up again. Let's just wait and keep the distance.
God, am I naïve...
Maybe saying here somethings that happened, it will be easier for you to understand how afraid I am of being humiliated again.
Thank you, Lighter, all your advice once again is wonderful.
Don't worry, I like reality posts, I know I need them, even if it takes a while to get them. You are really helping me. Your last post is exactly what I need now.
I'll read all the posts again today.
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hardtotrust: You wrote, "When my ex and I were together, one day she told me, while we were in her room, "Next session I will throw a condom on the table and tell him, If you want to do it, now is the time". As I was trying to recover from the shock, she said "Come on, you know I'm joking, I don't even use condoms".
Clarify: Is she saying to you that she is going to offer herself sexually to her NLP counselor at the next session?
That wasn't quite clear to me.
Sometimes, couples joke about sex like this and when they know each other well enough, it can be okay - as long as you have the same sense of humor?
However, alot of times, people with molestation or past sexual abuse issues will be inappropriate with sexual remarks and behavior. That's kind of what this sounds like to me. It sounds like she has some deep sexual issues - she's trying to appear "out there", "open", "unusually sexual". It's really just a mask. (IMO)
Dandylife
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Yes, she was saying that she was going to offer herself sexually, it was a somewhat frequent subject of discussion. She is a somatic N. I do believe she has past sexual abuse issues.
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it is a really sad situation ,all around, Hardtotrust. I am really sorry,friend. Ami
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Thank you, Ami.
Right now, I feel I can't face the whole situation. And I guess it will always be difficult to me to accept that someone so close can lie and manipulate so much.
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Yes, Hardto trust. It is a 'bite" dealing with N's---a huge bite ,a huge pain, sorrow, grief and angst right down to the bones. I wish I could take some of the pain away.
I bet it is your baby and the baby will be a joy to you.
That is the flower in the 'dirt",Hardtotrust.
That is how I see it,anyway. Love Ami
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I'm sorry she's humiliated you so badly.... I missed what it was that she did but.....
imagine how humiliating it would be to run around buying baby items, getting all happy and weepy in that delivery room.... plenty of photo ops with the new bundle of joy
then finding that you aren't the father.
Do you think she'd keep that a secret if it turned out you weren't the father? (do you think you'd try?) Imagine her having that over your head, the child's head.
Do you think she'd beat you over the head with it, threaten you humiliate you when you weren't doing her bidding or making her happy (not that you could)?
Do you think she'll put your name on the Birth cert then use the fact that you may not really be the father to beat you emotionally the rest of your life?
I think the very best scenario is that you aren't the father.
Please check with an attorney and see what your rights are.
If she puts your name on the cert.
If she doesn't.
If you turn out to be the father.
If you don't and you've allowed yourself to become involved and put on the certificate.
What if she goes all sweet and goopey just to get an emotional fix or financial support from you then her head starts spinning again, which is surely your future if you go back?
Is that the way you want to live?
I'm hoping you aren;t the father and you have the strength to take your lumps, learn your lessons and make a clean break for yourself.
90% research
10% execution
Do some homework. Pay an attorney for a couple hours information so you can make informed decisions and be proactive in your life.
You may be the only sane parent this child has if it turns out to be yours.
Be prepared ahead of time and don't keep getting confused and all tied up in knots over whether you're the father or not.
It will be what it is.
Have your thoughts and plans settled before that time arrives, is my advice.
You don't have to be blown around the earth by your emotions.... you can practice putting boundaries in place and make decisions that aren't all about the heart.
You have your mind and your spirit to call strength from as well.
There are many stories here of weak manipulated silent fathers..... and how they impacted their children's lives.
You won't win with someone who has no empathy for you or her children.
She won't ever be reasonable..... but she will pretend and make promises to get you in line.
End rant.... sorry so long.
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Thinking of you, today, Hardto trust! My heart goes out to you in your heartache. Ami
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Yes, Hardto trust. It is a 'bite" dealing with N's---a huge bite ,a huge pain, sorrow, grief and angst right down to the bones. I wish I could take some of the pain away.
I bet it is your baby and the baby will be a joy to you.
That is the flower in the 'dirt",Hardtotrust.
That is how I see it,anyway. Love Ami
What a bite, Ami. I am down. Just two messages and she did it again. I spend my time thinking how simple it would be to just sit, talk, understand and be happy. But, no.
Thank you!
imagine how humiliating it would be to run around buying baby items, getting all happy and weepy in that delivery room.... plenty of photo ops with the new bundle of joy
then finding that you aren't the father.
Thank you for walking in my shoes, Lighter! You summarized it all.
And then, if that sequence of facts happens, in the end, after the truth is exposed, she would probably smile seductively and say something equivalent to "Ooops!", and go away unaffected, as I have seen many times before. And if I complained, I would hear something like she “should have known that I had a bad temper" or that "if I have a problem with that I should see my therapist". Or maybe even one that I heard before: “But I never lied to you, you knew it all along. I don't need to lie to anyone.”
And the worst of all is that I am quite sure I won't be able to forgive myself if I let myself in that situation again. I don't think I would be able to move on. It is dangerous.
Do you think she'd keep that a secret if it turned out you weren't the father? (do you think you'd try?) Imagine her having that over your head, the child's head.
Do you think she'd beat you over the head with it, threaten you humiliate you when you weren't doing her bidding or making her happy (not that you could)?
Do you think she'll put your name on the Birth cert then use the fact that you may not really be the father to beat you emotionally the rest of your life?
It is possible that she would keep the secret. IMO that's what she went for when she hurried the wedding. That way it would be more difficult to raise suspicions and for me to get out when I found the truth. But that depends too much on who is the father. If it is a VIP she wouldn't keep it a secret.
Actually, I think she would do same she is doing now. Rewriting the script (as in Narcissistic Lovers). She would imagine she never did anything wrong, would try to get together with the real father, if she wasn't successful would accuse me of damaging her life and so on, the same way I heard about her “ex”, he was the bad guy, that prevented her from marrying her former ex (later I heard from a friend the same story, me being the bad guy now, that took her away from her fiance...). She wouldn't remember that she suggested that we live together, that she promised to be my family, nothing.
If it is a young lover with no credentials, the reaction might be different and even after a negative DNA, the official story, to uninformed people, could be that it is mine and I left her, for example.
If I get too much involved, it is possible that I would help her keep the secret. And yes, I'm sure she would use it to humiliate me and keep control.
BTW, I was lucky that, just after she sent me away, I heard a story of a friend who thought it was his baby when it was born, he was happy, thought that the baby looked like him. DNA. No, it wasn't his. He couldn't go away, he was too involved with the baby and the mother. Had a second baby. DNA. No, again it wasn't his. He had to distance himself from his friends. And now she's spending his heritage. Not a bright perspective. I understood this story as a BIG warning.
According to the law here, she can't put my name on the Birth Cert if I don't agree. I would be notified and then I would legally ask for the DNA. That would be perfect.
But remember, she's so manipulative that even if the baby is really mine, she might avoid the DNA and say it isn't so to punish me for not being obedient.
So, yes, I have been in contact with a lawyer and I have been researching about it. I found a similar case, I'm trying to get a copy of it.
I think the very best scenario is that you aren't the father.
Most people say that, some are praying for it. I surrendered. Whatever God decides. If it is not mine, it will be the final punch, but I will be free and have the opportunity to forget about it all. If it is mine, it will be the flower in the dirt, as Ami said, and I may write a book called “NC while raising a child with an N”!
What if she goes all sweet and goopey just to get an emotional fix or financial support from you then her head starts spinning again, which is surely your future if you go back?
That is my biggest fear and the most certain thing to happen. Everyday I think about the day I'll receive a call that she's giving birth to the baby. What should I do? There's no correct answer.
Thanks again, Lighter. Your post isn't long, it has all the best advice I need these days.
Thinking of you, today, Hardto trust! My heart goes out to you in your heartache. Ami
Thank you again, Ami!
Always good to know somebody cares. :D
Today I miss her...
Hugs to everybody.
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Hi Hardtotrust,
Thanks for your thanks.
Questions?
Have you been in any serious (unfortuanately that also usually means expensive :D) 'let's get-down-and-dirty' face-to-face therapy with an empathetic skilled psychologist re- your own voicelessness/invisible issues you mentioned? You said your parent's were N and you were always invisible. Have those wounds healed yet?
Also, I was just wondering have you done any co-dependency therapy or enmeshment therapy. Like I said, just wondering? No offence intended.
Thanks
Papillon
Edit - adding that I noted you'd been in joint therapy with her and and NLP therapist. My questions were more to do with your own personal stuff, not joint stuff. Just wanted to clear that up. Thanks
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Hi Papillon!
I have been in therapy for about 20 years (not all the time, but always returning). The first four years were extremely good, the rest was garbage, shallow therapists that just want your money.
You defined exactly the kind of therapy I've been looking for: "serious 'let's get-down-and-dirty' face-to-face therapy with an empathetic skilled psychologist".
When I went to the NLP therapist, my intention was to do regression and Erickssonian Hypnosis, but as mentioned before he is a fraud, doesn't know anything about the subject.
I was seeing a psychoanalyst, she is good, knows the stuff, but wasn't capable of focusing on my original pain, everytime we started that, a few minutes later she would be telling me some story about a patient or her life, rambling.
Now I have the phone number of a guy specialized in regression, I am considering it.
I have read a lot about codependency, improved a lot.
I don't think my deepest wounds have already healed. I think I have been able to face them more clearly only a few years ago. I also understand now that I have been depressed most of my life, isolating myself and afraid to get out of my home, afraid of people.
Worse than that, besides the wounds, I worry about the conditioning. I see now that I was able to suffer so much abuse from this ex because that is exactly what my mother conditioned me to. She just had to pull the levers. Now, I feel like a slave that has been freed but just can't get out of the house of his master.
Thank you! Hugs.
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Crap.
You're right.
There are no good answers..... if this is your baby OR if you allow yourself to included in this woman's life if it's not your child.
I can tell you from experience...... avoidance is your only rational choice..... should this not be your child.
If it is....... I don't want to read your book of heartbreak, sorrow, confusion and struggle to be understood while your child suffers in the middle of chaos, however quiet that chaos can be made by your complete capitulation.
Look around this board..... again I ask you.... and see what the children of N women, and the men who live their lives to calm that storm, grow up to deal with.
I must say.... I have more empathy for those men.... who's children have grown to lable them weak..... unwilling to protect them.
But, you see, trying to stand up to a person who cares only for themself and some bent handful of sick needs..... means you actually cause more damage to the innocents.
Tryijng to protect them causes collateral damage.
You have to leave the child home alone with that nut..... you can't be there at every moment to protect her. You won't want the nut in a rage when you leave for work....
so you'll towe the line and things will spiral into something you saw coming.
Can's say you didn't.
Nope.... I don't want to read that book.
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Thinking of you, hardtotrust!!!!! Hugs to you, Ami
(((((((((Hardtotrust)))))))))
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Hi Hardtotrust,
I hope you don't mind but I've moved this post out from your thread over to member stories. I was reflecting on the post I wrote and I've felt quite uncomfortable about it. Here's how I see it. My therapy stuff really isn't inappropriate here, and it was completely off the topic of your current situation and what's going on, which is the really important issue in this thread. Therapy talk, - maybe we can have that chat at a later date when the air clears a bit for you, and when you know where you stand with bubba :D
What's happened is I'm concerned that I have inconsiderately hijacked your thread and turned it into 'Narcissism Central' :D about me, meaning posting my story and my therapy experience. What's going on in your life is so destabiliizing for you, and I realize :( embarrassed emoticon just how important it is to stay on topic with you. I'm feeling it must be so incredibly difficult for you at the moment. I hope you're okay today, and I'm sorry for going on about me.
Thanks
Papillon
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WOW Papillion,
You ARE a butterfly who came out of the catepillars cocoon. What an uplifting story!!!! Love Ami
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((((((((((((((((((((((((((Ami, Lighter, Papillon, Izzy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I just don't know how to thank everybody for all the support, attention and time I've been given by the people in this board.
I'm reading very carefully the previous posts before answering. Thank you!
Just an update. Felt like stating that all present situation is her responsability, sent her an SMS:
"Just to make it clear: the present situation is 100% your choice. Hope you know what you are doing, because there is no turning back. It wasn't me who chose to get away from you and the baby".
Answer: "OK, just stay calm"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Answer: "patience, I feel that the distance has been an ally. in the divine hands we won't escape what's destined for us.kisses"
Me:"I remember quite well what you were doing the last time you asked me something like that, to wait. But you said one thing that is right, surrender it to God, do nothing".
The last time she told me something like that, she said she wasn't seeing anyone, later I discovered she was involved with a 20 year old, then, confronted, she said she never lied.
Answer: "I'm working a lot and with a big belly. I've been taking courses for distraction. Nothing more".
That time, sometimes I invited her to go out at night, she said she had to go to her course, it was very important for her. That's where she was seeing the guy. When I took courses in the same place, she had the guts to treat me like a boyfriend, kiss me good bye and then return to stay with the guy.
Going back to my books on N.
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Dear Hardto trust,
You must be replaying FOO(family of origin) patterns in this relationship(IMO). It seems that you are replaying betrayal, abandonment, pain,being disrespected, etc.
For me, my friend is helping me to see my FOO patterns and as I do I feel more and more free and more whole.
I think it is like the quote,"He that does not learn from the past is condemned to repeat it(paraphrase).
I am so sorry, Hardtotrust.
Something else that has been "hitting" me for awhile,but it is hard to say, is that I think it is a revelation for you how much you want a child ,in general,and how important it is to you.Maybe, you did not know this before.Am I right or wrong?.
I think that you have discovered another part of yourself, the nurturing, softer emotional side, that you might not have known was there. I have felt this for awhile ,but felt funny saying it b/c of the tragedy in your present circumstances.
As we say ,on the board, "compost what does not fit"(lol)
I am thinking of you, hardto trust ,and wishing the best that CAN be, in this situation , and for you ,personally. Love to you, Ami
(((((((((hardtotrust)))))))))))
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Hi Hardtotrust :),
How far along is the pregnancy now? There mustn't be too much time to go. Are you functioning okay at work? Are sleeping/eating okay? Are you socializing? I'm just wondering how you're going. Also, you may have already answered this and apologies in advance if I've missed it, but has she agreed to baby being DNA tested after birth?
Thinking of you
Papillon
Edit - PS to Izzy and Ami,
Thankyou for your kind words.
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Hi Papillon,
154 days until the due date. Functioning terribly a work... Not able to concentrate. I am sort of punishing myself, reading and listening to things related to babies and paternity, like this: http://www.latimes.com/la-na-hospice28jan28,0,4777090,full.story?coll=la-homepage-calendar-widget
I'm ending that.
Sleeping - more or less, trying to get off natural sleeping pills, able to sleep around 3 A.M. Socializing - a little, but every morning it is terrible to get out of bed and face people.
She has agreed to DNA, but that means nothing. Later she said she expected I didn't raise the issue of paternity again. I'm not counting on her good will, preparing for legal measures.
Today I am trying NC again, sent a message saying that will only deal with facts, not promises, that I am not her backup, and that someone will get in touch with her at the right time.
But overall I am incredibly better than two months ago!
Sorry for the short answers, didn't want to miss the moment.
Still reading the previous posts carefully.
Thank you!
Hugs!
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Hi Hardtotrsut,
Just quickly, and in case you missed it, I wanted to let you know I moved the therapy post. Hope you're okay with that. This thread is too important. Will get back to you later.
(((Hardtotrust)))
Papillon
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There are no good answers..... if this is your baby OR if you allow yourself to included in this woman's life if it's not your child.
I can tell you from experience...... avoidance is your only rational choice..... should this not be your child.
And even if it's my child, I won't be able to be a good father or example while being in a destructive relationship with the N mother, the way you explained above.
I agree. Avoidance is the rational choice and after some contacts in the last days, I'll try to be more rational again.
Right now, I think there is a positive way of seeing things: in a few months I may be granted a child! I would like to have one. It won't be possible to be very present in the first years, but OK.
If it is....... I don't want to read your book of heartbreak, sorrow, confusion and struggle to be understood while your child suffers in the middle of chaos, however quiet that chaos can be made by your complete capitulation.
Ooh, GREAT, Lighter! Now I'll have to deal with my rejection as a writer as well! :wink:
Look around this board..... again I ask you.... and see what the children of N women, and the men who live their lives to calm that storm, grow up to deal with.
I must say.... I have more empathy for those men.... who's children have grown to lable them weak..... unwilling to protect them.
But, you see, trying to stand up to a person who cares only for themself and some bent handful of sick needs..... means you actually cause more damage to the innocents.
Tryijng to protect them causes collateral damage.
Can you help me with that? Mentioning some examples that you think would be more specific for me? Forum names, threads that I should look for? If you think it is more appropriate, please PM me.
Thank you! Hugs!
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Thinking of you, hardtotrust!!!!! (((((((((Hardtotrust)))))))))
Thank you, Ami!
I hope you don't mind but I've moved this post out from your thread over to member stories.
Papillon, you are unbelievable gentle. I see no problem in your posting your story here. I understood it as sharing. You were offering something very personal and helpful. And I relate to your story very much. Please, be free to repost it here anytime you want, but it was a good idea to ALSO post it in Personal Stories because more people will be able to access it.
Thank you, Papillon!
Dear Hardto trust,
You must be replaying FOO(family of origin) patterns in this relationship(IMO). It seems that you are replaying betrayal, abandonment, pain,being disrespected, etc.
Guilty!
Something else that has been "hitting" me for awhile,but it is hard to say, is that I think it is a revelation for you how much you want a child ,in general,and how important it is to you.Maybe, you did not know this before.Am I right or wrong?
I think that you have discovered another part of yourself, the nurturing, softer emotional side, that you might not have known was there. I have felt this for awhile ,but felt funny saying it b/c of the tragedy in your present circumstances.
As we say ,on the board, "compost what does not fit"(lol)
I am thinking of you, hardto trust ,and wishing the best that CAN be, in this situation , and for you ,personally. Love to you, Ami
(((((((((hardtotrust)))))))))))
Ami, I don't know how to thank you for such sweet words.
You are right. I have discovered my nurturing, softer emotional side on the last few years (as in Stitch's story), but only in the last months I really understood how much this issue of having a child has become important to me.
But your words made me feel this issue very strongly now. :cry:
Can I say something?
I just wanted to belong.
I have never felt I was part of something. I never belonged.
The story of the Ugly Duckling - only in my thirties I learned about the end of the story. I didn't know it most of my life. I only learned the first part, about not belonging. I guess I repressed the rest, maybe. Then I learned the end (as in Stitch's story).
That's why it was so important to me when she promised she would be my family. It was all I ever wanted. I would be part of something.
Now, if there's at least my child, it may mean something, not a whole family, but someone I can be there for. To listen, to validate, to reaffirm, to care for.
Thank you again, Ami.
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Oh Hardtotrust,
I hope you find the right woman for you,with whom you can connect and share your heart, to help each other and love each other through the pains(FOO issues--bleh) and good times.
I hope you have the joy of children, hardtotrust. I love to see a man's softer side.It is very precious b/c it is so hard for men to get in touch with it.
I guess ,for now, you may want to do what I am doing, preparing myself to be the best I can be, for the future, whatever it may hold.
Love to you, hardtotrust Ami
((((((((((Hardtotrust))))))))
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Thinking of you, today, Hardtotrust! Love to you, Ami
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Hi Hardtotrust,
Thanks for taking the time to answer those questions. I can feel that it's just so rough for you. I'm concerned that maybe she's really enjoying the attention and the right to access that she thinks she's got with you. It concerns me that she may wear you down. I hope you can see a professional psychologist soon.
I was wondering, do you have any holidays owing to you? Can you take a break and get out of her contact range for a while? Way out. :D You won't really be relevant for 154 days anyway. She sounds well set up and in the event that she experiences any difficulties, you can't really help. That's what doctor's are for.
Maybe you could take off and go join a group doing a trek of Nepal for a few weeks, or go on a Group Charter deep sea fishing trip with a bunch of guys and a few kegs bottles of beer? Is there anyway to get out of your current environment for a while, but not all on your own. Leave your mobile phone with a friend or secretarial service for a few weeks so that all work business calls get answered.
Do you have anything that you've always wanted to do, but been putting it off. Most people have a little list of things, 'must do' things before we die. Cycle China or Canada. Do an exotic train journey through Spain. Go to Findhorn. Oh, I don't know :D. Go camping, hiking, fishing. I'm just thinking of you finding a way to open those windows and get a fresh breeze blowing through your head. I think it was St Augustine who said "The world is like a book, and to stay in one place is like only ever reading one page." If that is all too overwhelming or impossible maybe join a gym or a club. Another thought, maybe you could get a 2nd cheapie phone and give her that number. Then block her number from your everyday phone. That way you can communicate totally at your leisure, on your terms, when you're up to it.
153 days now is a heck of long time and an enormous number of days for her to play with your head, either consciously or unconsciously. I hope you continue to care for yourself.
Where there's a will there's a way,
Papillon
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Hi Hardtotrust,
"But your words made me feel this issue very strongly now. Can I say something? I just wanted to belong. I have never felt I was part of something. I never belonged.
The story of the Ugly Duckling - only in my thirties I learned about the end of the story. I didn't know it most of my life. I only learned the first part, about not belonging. I guess I repressed the rest, maybe. Then I learned the end (as in Stitch's story). That's why it was so important to me when she promised she would be my family. It was all I ever wanted. I would be part of something. Now, if there's at least my child, it may mean something, not a whole family, but someone I can be there for. To listen, to validate, to reaffirm, to care for."
I read your words to Ami. I think you're very insightful. It's my own personal belief that it's really ourselves who hold the keys to our emotional maturing, safety, wellness and recovery. I think it's all in there, comes from within us, and sometimes we just need some sound guidance and direction to connect with it. You said something in that paragraph that glared and tooted at me that you were speaking about yourself and your needs really. Lights flashing, sirens went off. It was so exciting.
" someone I can be there for. To listen, to validate, to reaffirm, to care for.'[/i][/u]
This sentiment just seems to me to be so much for you, and so much more about you, especially at this stage. I think this maybe is something you need to do for yourself, first, before you can successfully do it for another in a healthy non-co-dependent wholesome way.
Maybe it would be worthwhile to perhaps develop further the art of doing these things for yourself. To listen to, to validate, to reaffirm and care for yourself with understanding. Maybe you thought you'd get this from her. I don't know. I think mostly we humans are too actively engaged in trying to cope and survive ourselves. It's a big enough task to be able to do this for ourselves, let alone for another. That's why having children requires preparation. So often there isn't a whole lot of thriving going on in our lives, just surviving.
It's such a huge ask of anyone else to meet my emotional needs. 8) For my personal and emotional needs to be met, and for me to be sure that they'll be met, I see that as my responsibility. I'm fine with that. When it's up to me I get damn specific and practical pretty darn fast. :shock: On the other hand, let's say you're gonna do it for me - I might just become a bit self-indulgent and lazy and demanding, after all you're doing the work. 8) That's another topic though.
Just been thinking about you Hardtotrust and hoping you're eating healthy and sleeping well. Pizza is kinda healthy :lol: isn't it? Well I think with extra garlic it should be. What do you think? How important is it to get off the natural sleeping pills at the moment? Can they hurt? What are they? Valerian or some such product.
Papillon
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Oh Papillon,
What a wonderful post about taking care of yourself and not expecting it of the outside world. It is just exactly where I am, right now, in my "development, Could you outline the particular steps you went through, personally, to get from Point A(enmeshed person,I assume) to Point B(responsible for self,not expecting others to'validate you).
Any information about your journey would be very appreciated.
I have been "underwater(living in lies and distortions) for a long time, I am" swimming to the top"(facing reality), and am almost there.
I know it is a lot to ask and just write whatever feels right to you, if anything.
Thanks for all your kind words to me, Papillion. Love to you, Ami
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Oh Hardtotrust,
I hope you find the right woman for you,with whom you can connect and share your heart, to help each other and love each other through the pains(FOO issues--bleh) and good times.
I hope you have the joy of children, hardtotrust. I love to see a man's softer side.It is very precious b/c it is so hard for men to get in touch with it.
I guess ,for now, you may want to do what I am doing, preparing myself to be the best I can be, for the future, whatever it may hold.
Love to you, hardtotrust Ami
((((((((((Hardtotrust))))))))
Thank you, Ami!
I feel hopeless, but I'll try to be open for the future.
Thinking of you, todat, Hardtotrust! Love to you, Ami
Thank you again, Ami! I saw your post earlier, it helped me a lot.
I'm concerned that maybe she's really enjoying the attention and the right to access that she thinks she's got with you. It concerns me that she may wear you down. I hope you can see a professional psychologist soon.
You are right. She's wearing me down. What do you think about regression therapy (not past lives, only childhood)?
I was wondering, do you have any holidays owing to you? Can you take a break and get out of her contact range for a while? Way out. :D You won't really be relevant for 154 days anyway.
Lol. Well, I do have some days that I can use. Problem is, I am afraid of traveling and be alone. I'll think much more about the subject if I don't get really busy. I'll get worse. But this weekend (tomorrow night) I'll go to a religious retreat, which may be interesting, because it is supposed to be inspiring, busy and full of people. I'll really think about this suggestion and try to find something compatible.
The gym suggestion is also very interesting. I like it. I already go to the gym, but I could get more serious for a time, it would be very positive.
Oh, I have already got another phone line and decided I won't give her the new number. Maybe I'll keep the old one for some time, just in case there's some information regarding the birth, but I won't take this phone everywhere, avoiding interaction.
153 days now is a heck of long time and an enormous number of days for her to play with your head, either consciously or unconsciously. I hope you continue to care for yourself.
It sure is a long time! I need to detach. Now that I'm trying NC again, I'll really try to get some closure. Since she's so calm and distant (and according to the pattern of her messages), I'm assuming she's with the other possible father of the child and he may be completely clueless. So I'll just keep distance and take legal measures in due time to learn about the truth.
I read your words to Ami. I think you're very insightful. It's my own personal belief that it's really ourselves who hold the keys to our emotional maturing, safety, wellness and recovery. I think it's all in there, comes from within us, and sometimes we just need some sound guidance and direction to connect with it. You said something in that paragraph that glared and tooted at me that you were speaking about yourself and your needs really. Lights flashing, sirens went off. It was so exciting.
Wow, thank you, Papillon. Sometimes I think I ramble too much, I am very happy with your comments. I agree with you, it is up to us to recover. Therapists and the like may only help.
Papillon, all your suggestions and ideas are just wonderful. I'll have to read these posts some times again to be able to get it all.
Just been thinking about you Hardtotrust and hoping you're eating healthy and sleeping well. Pizza is kinda healthy :lol: isn't it? Well I think with extra garlic it should be. What do you think? How important is it to get off the natural sleeping pills at the moment? Can they hurt? What are they? Valerian or some such product.
Oh, Yes! Pizza! My favorite!
No, it is not that important, right now, to get off these pills. Yes, they are made of Valerian and other plants. But they don't help too much, either. I had used a very good sleeping pill a few years ago, didn't cause side effects or dependency. Thinking about it again for a time (153 days).
What a post, Papillon! Thank you for so much attention!
((((((((((Papillon, Ami))))))))))
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Hi HTT,
Just wanted to catch up on your thread and send support.
I was going to send you this quote from myself:
see a lawyer who is expert in adoptive and family and paternity issues
but then I noticed in one post you said you've been in contact with a lawyer.
Do you feel like sharing how that meeting went? Was it a meeting or just a call? Have you sat down in a lawyer's office (a lawyer with this speciality) and taken notes about your rights, and about timing, etc? Are you documenting?
Reason I return to this Lighter-like reality stuff is I hear you getting all swampy with the little communications Miss N grants you when you ask for them, and getting awash in nostalgia for the times when she did say things you wanted to hear (which obviously don't hold, because she's not an honest person).
And that worries me. If this child is yours, you will have a lifetime relationship and responsibility. You will have all the love and work of family. And much to negotiate with the mother, which you'll need to do from as strong a position as possible.
So it's crucial that you be asking this lawyer: To maximise my time and participation in this child's life if it is my child, RIGHT NOW I should be doing what?
A
B
C
To maximise my protection from liability and financial entanglement if this child is not mine, RIGHT NOW I should be doing what?
A
B
C
Until you have the answers to these questions, I don't think the emotional aspects have much importance, though I do sympathize with their power.
I would love to know the brass tacks.
With caring,
Hops
PS--I also ask because the law is so so so complex that I worry you may be setting up some circumstance that may sabotage you down the line, with your emails and calls to her. There's no way to know, as a nonlawyer.
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Dear Hardtotrust.
You DON"T ramble (lol). Keep talking and sharing. Many people care and are following your progress. Love Ami
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((((((Hopalong, Ami, Izzy)))))) Thank you. Since I'm in a hurry, I'll answer the last posts more carefully later.
Just an update.
Yesterday I tried to talk to an uncle of my ex. He was a very nice guy when I was dating my ex, oriental philosophies, tai-chi-chuan, meditation, family and so on. Always looked very pleasant and helpful. He is married to her aunt.
Tried to talk to him, the only answers were "I don't know anything" and "I don't know what to say to you". Not a friendly word. Not a good wish. Not something like "I hope things get better and you two get along for the sake of the baby" or "I'll talk to her to see if everything is fine". No care.
These people are really strange. To them everything is fine the way it is.
I am sick, really sick, sick, sick.
I feel like going crazy. Everytime it gets worse in my life. Everytime I try to start again, to do something right, it's always the same. In the end, after being used, lied to, conned, they still manage to make me look like the wrong one, the crazy one. And, yes, I am really getting crazy with so much evil.
And they go on with their lives, unaffected, leaving all the debris behind.
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Oh Hardto trust,
I am sorry you are going through such pain. I really am. It must be one of the hardest things you have ever endured. My heart goes out to you! Love Ami
((((((((((Hardtotrust))))))))))
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Thank you, Ami. I really need all help right now.
I feel like I have died last year. Just a hollow shell that is going through the motions.
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Hard,
I have not read through the five pages after your original post here, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone else has expressed/advised...
I would leave this woman alone completely. I would go to a lawyer, have him require her to have a paternity test as soon as the baby is born. If the child is yours, I would have the lawyer draw up agreements immediately for the future care of the baby.
I feel very sad that a child was brought into this mess. But, if the child is not yours, I think you should stay out of the situation. This woman sounds insane, and I am afraid that even if you are a nice, stable sort of fellow, you will have very little influence in the child's life.
Hard, I think it is time to drop all communication with the entire family, unless it is through legal channels.
Take care and keep posting to let us know how things are progressing.
Beth
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Dear Hardtotrust,
I KNOW what it is like to feel like a hollow shell. I am there,also. I have to believe that I AM worthwhile,even though my childhood messages told me otherwise.
I think you are at this type of a pivotal point,also.
I am struggling, with you, to come up from a dark place, which was there BEFORE I lost my son. I bet that you were in a dark place before your pregnant N.
I am trying to find love for myself and think that love is the answer to our dilemma's,. For me, my biggest 'problem" is that I don't love myself ,enough. My other problems arise from this. Even Scott's death could have been prevented if I could have left my marriage,I think. I will never know for sure,of course.
However, we need to love ourselves, hardto trust,IMO.What do you think? Hugs Friend , Ami
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Thanks, Beth, Thanks, Thanks, Thanks. Your advice is very realistic and that's exactly what I need now. Right now I'm trying to accept the truth about what you said, that I'll have very little influence in the child's life. The way the ex N controls all perceptions of the family confirms that. I really need to start acting more rationally.
Thank you, Ami. Thank you for relating, for sharing. Thank you. You're completely right about the dark place I was in BEFORE the pregnant N. Sometimes, when I forget a little about her, I notice that.
I agree that we have to love ourselves, but how? In the last years I have been able to remember the image of my mother looking at me with the most disgusting face. The feeling is incredibly painful. It is something strongly imprinted. Of course now I know rationally that her face was about herself, how she felt inside. But that doesn't help much.
I'm not sure which religion you follow, but this little book points to some interesting things: http://www.amazon.com/Root-Rejection-Bondage-Experience-Acceptance/dp/0446691143/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204913476&sr=1-36
If it has nothing to do with your religious point of view, please just forget it. Don't want to push anything.
I'm really paying attention to the things you said, Ami. I'll go to my retreat tonight and I'll come back to your post.
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((((((((((((((Hard))))))))))
I am not sure how long it has been that you have realized your mother did not love you? If you are new to that idea, you may be trying to fill that space you are left with.
Your best bet is to be alone for a while, read everything you can about Narcissism, decide how you want your life to be, make plans to create your new life.
No girls!!!!!!! :) Yet, anyways - until you are happy inside and can be what a partner should be, because only then will you be able to have the sort of fulfilling relationship you deserve.
Take care!!
Beth
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I am not sure how long it has been that you have realized your mother did not love you? If you are new to that idea, you may be trying to fill that space you are left with.
It took me a long time to realize that. Maybe some part of me is still in denial, because I still find it difficult to believe my Ns are liars and evil as they are. I still try to find excuses for them.
Maybe I simply haven't completely accepted the idea of being rejected. I'm very ashamed of that. I remember being ashamed at school, at public events, when everyone one was there and my parents weren't.
That's why reading so much about N helps me. It's a reference. A confirmation that what I've seen is real. There are no excuses and it's not exactly my fault.
I'll try to stick to your suggestion ("I would leave this woman alone completely."), for the sake of my mental health, and Ami's ("I hope you find the right woman for you") to try to find some meaning.
Thanks Beth!
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Hi Hardtotrust-
I've been reading your posts and it sounds like you're feeling really low. That's probably quite normal and healthy considering what's going on in your world. A spiritual retreat sounds like the way to go. I so hope so. I'm hoping you can chill and get some head space.
Just wanted to bring this post back up.
Hard,
I have not read through the five pages after your original post here, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone else has expressed/advised...
I would leave this woman alone completely. I would go to a lawyer, have him require her to have a paternity test as soon as the baby is born. If the child is yours, I would have the lawyer draw up agreements immediately for the future care of the baby.
I feel very sad that a child was brought into this mess. But, if the child is not yours, I think you should stay out of the situation. This woman sounds insane, and I am afraid that even if you are a nice, stable sort of fellow, you will have very little influence in the child's life.
Hard, I think it is time to drop all communication with the entire family, unless it is through legal channels.
Take care and keep posting to let us know how things are progressing.
Beth
I think these are very wise suggestions from G28.
Hoping the retreat clears your vision and is emotionally and mentally refreshing for you,
Later
Papillon
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Thinking of you ,hardtotrust. You ARE worthwhile, even when you don't "feel" it. I share your religious views(based on the book you mentioned).
We HAVE value, whether or not we "feel'it. It is inherent. I am writing to myself, as well as you,here, hatdtotrust.
Love and a Hug to you, Ami
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Hi Papillon!!!
Thank you very much. This thread is full of wonderful advice. Time to read it all again.
I was extremely low yesterday night. Went to the church (not the one I'm used to) to go to the spiritual retreat. I was really bad. I waited there for more than one hour and wasn't feeling good while waiting, until I couldn't handle it and came back home, thinking about going to the religious people who have been helping more and praying for me. I was very desperate. Really, really bad. Managed to sleep.
This morning...
Ami, I am going to say something very relevant to me. When you say things like that and I can relate to you at least at some level, you make me very proud. That's because I admire you, what you do, what you say, the people you help here, your strength. So, when you say that we have at least something in common, even if it as problem :D, I feel important!
Thank you!
Now, well, I don't know how to say it, but this morning...
Well, let's just say now you are all officially authorized to place me in a mental institution. A comfortable one, please.
I won't say anything else now, just...
(http://neyjss.sites.uol.com.br/DSC00193.jpg)
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Oh Hardtotrust,
I am sorry you are hurting so badly. Once ,when I was in despair and desperate, Lise(Gabben) told me that if it really, really hurts so badly that you think you will die(or want to die) it is probably FOO (family of origin) pain that you are re-living.
That helped. Even though your situation is very ,very heartbreaking and disturbing, I bet that you are re-experiencing "original" abandonment, shame ,pain ,fear and guilt.You,also, may be experiencing lonliness that is greatly compounded by the lonliness you felt as a child.
IOW, your current pain is magnified 1000 times by your original FOO pain.
Hardtotrust, you sent me the Joyce Meier link, so we believe in God the same way, I think.
You DO have inherent value,just as Joyce did and I do.
I know these can just be "words",but I wanted to say them ,anyway.
Even if EVERYTHING worked out with the N and the baby,I think that you still have deep FOO pain that you would have to heal.
I had two beautiful sons and it did not touch the deep pain from my NM. Nothing ever has, no matter what I achieved, bought, did etc----nothing touched it except love(from a person) and from God.
I hope it helps to realize that even if all your outside dreams came true, your "insides" would still hurt. It helped me to know and experience that.
Keep sharing, Hardtotrust. I really, really do care.
Thanks for all your beautiful words to me. You really ,really touched my heart ! It was a balm to me, Hardtotrust. Love, Ami
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Thank you, Ami! Thank you!
You are right about Joyce Meyer's example. I always forget that she suffered a lot, much more than me. And yes, you are right, about my pain being magnified by my past. I always forget that, too. Good point.
Oh, but only recently I have come to see God this way. And I am still being "reprogrammed". Before that, I had a different kind of religion, more like karma, which led me to reinforce everything negative I learned about me, the world and God in my FOO.
I had two beautiful sons and it did not touch the deep pain from my NM. Nothing ever has, no matter what I achieved, bought, did etc----nothing touched it except love(from a person) and from God.
This is precious wisdom, that comes from lessons learned the hard way. Thank you for sharing. I needed to hear that.
Thanks God for helping me touching your heart in a good way!
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Dear Hardtotrust,
I was not sure if the pix was your Pregant N or just a picture .I didn't understand what you meant by your highlighted words.
Maybe ,I am being dense,Hardtotrust. Could you explain,please. Ami
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No, you are not being dense! I am listening very carefully to all your words, which are helping me a lot.
But, Ami, this morning she invited me to go to the course for pregnant women she's taking! And the crazy guy here agreed to go!
I was daddy for a day!
I took a lot of pictures. There was no special involvement (no touching, no emotional words), but I was at her side while she was shopping for clothes and there were very nice pictures.
I wanted to share that with you.
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Hi Hardtotrust,
A comfortable mental asylum sounds like an oxymoron. I think that would make a good forum surname for me. Papillon Oxymoron. What do you think?
That picture looks like me after too much pizza and beer :D. Is it the baby?
I don't think you're crazy Hardtotrust, even if it'll make you feel better to think you are. Sorry - can't give you that point - out of bounds :D.
The problem I have with life is that I wasn't consulted about whether I wanted to be here. Then, when it was determined that I would be I wasn't informed as to how it all works, or how to work it all. I also won't be consulted when my time is up.
So Hardtotrust, if you do find a comfy asylum can you email me the address, I might join you. Or maybe we can just tough it out here.
Good photo,
Papillon
"Integrity is unity of the personality; it implies being brutally honest with ourselves about our intentionality. Since intentionality is inextricably bound up with the daimonic, this is never an easy, nor always pleasant pursuit. But being willing to admit our daimonic tendencies - to know them consciously and to wisely oversee them - brings with it the invaluable blessing of freedom, vigor, inner strength, and self-acceptance."
Stephen A. Diamond, 1996, Anger, Madness, and the Daimonic
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Oh Hardtotrust
It is a beautiful picture, for sure! Love, Ami
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A comfortable mental asylum sounds like an oxymoron. I think that would make a good forum surname for me. Papillon Oxymoron. What do you think?
That picture looks like me after too much pizza and beer :D. Is it the baby?
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !!!
Yes, that is the baby! My PB! (possible baby!)
You're fantastic, Papillon! I will enjoy your company in an asylum! Oh, and the facilities must have a gym, because that looks like my belly after lunch, too.
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Thanks, Ami!
I guess you must be scratching your head, making a cross at the side of my name in your list of forum friends and thinking "Well, this one is a goner...". :roll:
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No Hardtotrust,
My thinking is not too swift these days and I just needed some help in understanding. You would have to do more than THAT to get an X across your name, Hardtotrust(lol). Ami
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Dear Papillion,
Does "diamonic" mean demonic? I hope so cuz then the whole thing makes sense(lol) . Ami
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Your thinking is full of precious thoughts that make the difference for me, Ami.
Right now, I am a little happy (an oasis in this desert), but if it wasn't for your guidance these past days, I am not sure I wouldn't even be here to have this moment.
Thanks for still having hope for me, despite my emotional decision today.
((((((((((((Ami)))))))))))
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Hi Izzy!
I don't feel time is flying by. On the contrary, that is part of the problem, I just can't wait to end this (at least what can be determined by the paternity).
As you said, I can't help making plans, but everytime I follow that path, I have to stop. So my mind keeps dancing around many possible scenarios, from one extreme to the other.
After what happened today, I got a lot calmer, because the possibilities narrowed a little. It looks like (at least for now) she isn't going to stop me completely from seeing the baby, if it is mine. One of the things that I was consumed by was that it could become a very frightening legal dispute. Now it is possible that it can be avoided. Let's wait and see.
Also, it looks like she still maintains officially that I'm the father (her aunt phoned her and when she learned that I was with her, she phoned me to invite me to lunch and it was a very friendly talk - her family, apart from mother, brother and sister, has some nice people).
Also, one of the things that has helped me feel this low, is that I have concluded, after this last experience last year, that my love life (including here my parents) has been a complete and total failure. And feeling this failure, at my age, not having kids, with the possibility that I was only used while she managed to to get pregnant or that I was only used and now I have a lost baby (lost to her manipulation and N), I got somewhat desperate, seeing nothing good ahead. I feel like I lost my opportunity while I was fighting my emotional issues and now it is too late in my life to achieve what I see most people already have around my age.
Your observation about N-Moms is very important. Before she got pregnant (and still now) many people said that she will change, that pregnancy changes women. Well, I guess if that were true for Ns, then we wouldn't have N-Moms, would we? So I had to get real about that.
Probably the baby will suffer. But if it turns out like her, maybe not. She's oblivious. Nothing reaches her. She lives in her perfect world with her perfect family, and there are no problems to care about. That's one of my fears, that I won't be able to reach my daughter.
Thank you!
Hugs!
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Dear Hardtotrust,
I can really hear deeper messages from your FOO, in your voice,such as 'You will never have life's riches", "You will always be a"loser", etc. I hear very deep messages of pain. That is the place where you have to start your healing,IMO, looking at these deep messages and challenging their validity.
Papillion talks about this, I think. He had to see himself as HE was, not as his family told him he was. That is what I am talking about, dear friend.
I have tasted all the good things life has to offer and I was left alone and dying b/c of my M's mesages ,in my head, which I believed. They overrode all of my successes.
Everytime I reached one of life's milestones, college graduation, graduate school, marriage, two beautiful sons, nice house, etc, I thought I would "arrive", feel good about myself, but it never,ever worked. In fact, the more success I had , the WORSE I got b/c I realized that it was not helping me.
I gave up totally ,once my sons could drive. I did not need to take them places and so I just gave up and stopped trying all the activities I had done before. I had friends,parties, was in a dance group, went to church,etc. I just gave up b/c I could not get out of"gray" and 'numb" and I had tried it ALL,IMO.
I am saying all this to say that even if you had a wonderful wife and a wonderful baby,in the best possible circumstances, it would not touch the deeper pain, I don't think.
The deeper pain is where your healing needs to be, as mine was.
Now, I am healing. God sent a person to love me. I needed "first aid ",badly, and a flesh and blood person came in to my life to love me,unconditionally. Then, I was able to get God's love,more, b/c I experienced a human unconditional love.
Ask God to heal you and send the people you need to help you.
Trust me, YOU have value. Believe me, hardtotrust,until you can see it for yourself. Love and a Big Hug Ami
((((((((((Hardtotrust)))))))))))
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Please be very careful that you don't decide anything definite until it's a truth, My saying is, "The money's in the bank when the money's in the bank". Until then, anything can happen. Watch for game playing.
Very sensible advice, but right now I feel like a puppet, waiting for its puppeteer. Trying to get real.
And I'm sorry about your entire love life. I can run a race with you there, but have had more years to deal with the unfairness of life. Perhaps you can go easier on yourself and think happy plans for your future to fix that problem and keep your mind from twisting into a knot otherwise.
Ready for the race! :D
Thanks. I'm touched by your words. I understand their weight, coming from your experience, from someone who has been there and knows what I am going through. I'm listening.
If you are not aware, the baby is now taking on the personality, feelings, etc. of the mother. At first I found this difficult to believe, but now I can.
I always think about that. But that frightens me when I think about what the baby is taking on indirectly from me. That's one of the reasons a few weeks ago I sent her a message sending good wishes to the baby. Trying to ease any tension.
It would be so much nicer to be happily in love with a sane woman and have your baby together, wouldn't it? but then you might be written up in the Guiness Book of Records!
Keep a happy thought
Hugs
Izzy
Thank you, Izzy!
I can really hear deeper messages from your FOO, in your voice,such as 'You will never have life's riches", "You will always be a"loser", etc. I hear very deep messages of pain. That is the place where you have to start your healing,IMO, looking at these deep messages and challenging their validity.
Papillion talks about this, I think. He had to see himself as HE was, not as his family told him he was. That is what I am talking about, dear friend.
That's extremely difficult to me. I guess I still consider my N's authority figures. In a way, I still expect them to tell me what to do and to think. Sometimes I really suspect that I am an inverted narcissist.
Talking about FOO, the posts here helped me notice that one of the situations I'm reenacting is the one in which they get close to me, promise things, take what they need from me, and then go away, leaving me empty, feeling more needy than before (and then there are many "friends" that will tell me to be more understanding).
I have tasted all the good things life has to offer and I was left alone and dying b/c of my M's mesages ,in my head, which I believed. They overrode all of my successes.
Everytime I reached one of life's milestones, college graduation, graduate school, marriage, two beautiful sons, nice house, etc, I thought I would "arrive", feel good about myself, but it never,ever worked. In fact, the more success I had , the WORSE I got b/c I realized that it was not helping me.
I gave up totally ,once my sons could drive. I did not need to take them places and so I just gave up and stopped trying all the activities I had done before. I had friends,parties, was in a dance group, went to church,etc. I just gave up b/c I could not get out of"gray" and 'numb" and I had tried it ALL,IMO.
I feel like that! I don't want to do anything, because deep down it will always be the same and I won't get what I really wanted in the first place.
I am saying all this to say that even if you had a wonderful wife and a wonderful baby,in the best possible circumstances, it would not touch the deeper pain, I don't think.
The deeper pain is where your healing needs to be, as mine was.
Wow! Great remark! Listening to you, now, it is quite obvious to me that I'm feeding an illusion that if all that happened, everything would be alright. But we know better... You are right. I have to think more about it.
Now, I am healing. God sent a person to love me. I needed "first aid ",badly, and a flesh and blood person came in to my life to love me,unconditionally. Then, I was able to get God's love,more, b/c I experienced a human unconditional love.
I'm very happy to hear that!
Thank you, Ami!
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Hi Hardtotrust,
Gosh Hardtotrust, what a rollercoaster ride of emotion. I can't really add atm to what Izzy and Ami have just said, and everyone else on this thread. I can only think that you're in for a very 'interesting' :? time ahead. What lay before you is yet to unfold. Plenty of relaxation and thinking time required I suspect. Your early primary caregivers role in your personal self issues is another whole world of understanding you'll no doubt unravel, as well, as time goes on. I sometimes wonder that more of us aren't chronically depressed.
My thoughts are with you,
Papillon
"Suffering by nature or chance never seems so painful as suffering inflicted on us by the arbitrary will of another.”
Arthur Schopenhauer
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Hi Hardtotrust,
Just checking in to say,"Thinking about you and I hope you're handling all the stuff."
Papillon
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Just thinking of you, Hardtotrust
How are you doing, today? Warmly, Ami
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Gosh Hardtotrust, what a rollercoaster ride of emotion. I can't really add atm to what Izzy and Ami have just said, and everyone else on this thread. I can only think that you're in for a very 'interesting' :? time ahead.
Yep, can't complain my life is boring right now.
I will try to focus a little more on the relaxation time and understanding of myself.
I’m going through cycles, some excruciating moments, some moments a little calmer, as I feel now.
These days I’m thinking the baby is mine, need some reminders to be more cautious.
Yesterday she called me to find out which week of her pregnancy she is at... She is going to have an ultrasound and this one is mostly intended to determine the sex of the baby. So I had to tell her which week of her pregnancy this is and suggest a day to have the exam. The last one gave a 90% chance it is a girl, which was our first choice.
On Sunday there was a little girl at my church, she has some kind of problem, like a liquid in her brain, she was in a special wheelchair. Lovely girl. At one moment she extended her arm to me, it was very sweet. I felt I was ready to receive the baby, even if it is not 100% healthy.
Many people don’t understand. A “friend’ who is a “therapist” thinks that the only problem is that I still love her, won’t even listen to me. She doesn’t understand the number of issues behind all this and, more important, what the baby means.
19 weeks today. 21 to go. Almost halfway.
Thank you, Papillon. Thank you, Ami.
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Hi HTT,
Forgive me for being a spoilsport but these indefinite terms got my adrenalin leaping. I guess for me, when it comes to parental access to a child, I would rely on nothing less than a concrete legal document and court authority. It's just too important to let tenous emotional assurances rule.
It looks like (at least for now) she isn't going to stop me completely from seeing the baby, if it is mine. One of the things that I was consumed by was that it could become a very frightening legal dispute. Now it is possible that it can be avoided. Let's wait and see.
Let's not wait and see! Let's go see a lawyer and ask what steps need to be done now...
hugs
Hops
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Hi Hardtotrust,
Well I am slowly working my way through this thread. I'm on about page 6. While reading I have developed respect for you and admiration for your genuine courage and integrity.
It is also apparent to me that you have done a lot of soul searching, healing and maturing throughout your life time.
Sometimes I have to wonder if a cigar is not just a cigar, meaning that we do unconsciously attract relationships and situations that parallel our childhood drama or the dynamic of our family but sometimes things just happen and it hurts.
Your brave.
How many days left?
((((((((hardtotrust)))))))
It is good to have you here on the board.
Gab
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I guess for me, when it comes to parental access to a child, I would rely on nothing less than a concrete legal document and court authority. It's just too important to let tenous emotional assurances rule.
Let's not wait and see! Let's go see a lawyer and ask what steps need to be done now...
Hi Hops!
I agree with you! Every possible legal measure should be taken as soon as possible. But in my case, right now, there is none. All I can do is to get ready for the different possible scenarios. At this moment, the main doubt is if she will accept the DNA exam or if I will have to go to court to force it. Together with my lawyer, we are already studying the legal measures that will be taken if she doesn't agree with the exam.
Thank you for not letting me be passive, Hops!
Well I am slowly working my way through this thread. I'm on about page 6. While reading I have developed respect for you and admiration for your genuine courage and integrity.
It is also apparent to me that you have done a lot of soul searching, healing and maturing throughout your life time.
I'm moved by your words, Gab. :oops: They mean a lot to me, especially today.
145 days to her due date!
Thank you very much for such kind words!
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Little update:
As I said before, she phoned me yesterday to learn which week of the pregnancy she is at. I instructed her and explained which day it would be better to have the ultrasound in order to determine if it is a boy or a girl.
Today she pops up at my work. :shock:
She's never been there before.
She is signing a contract with the government branch I work at. As she was at the building, she visited me.
During our talk, suddenly she tells me: "So, you can see the ultrasound later on the video cd, OK?"
Alright, one more punch. I ask "I guess tomorrow is not my day, so?" She says she has invited her mother, aunts, grandmother etc.
We talk a little more, I say goodbye. As I am walking away, she says "You can go if you want". I turn around and walk away.
Later she sends a message saying she sometimes acts coldly and invites me to go. I don't answer. She phones me later asking if I will go. I answer "We have already talked about it" (her usual answer to my every attempt to talk). She asks if that means I won't go. "We have already talked about it". She laughs, I say goodbye.
Later she sends another message "By 'We have already talked about it' do you mean you will wait for the delivery and DNA? My baby is a blessing". Answer: "Strange thing to say it's a blessing and prevent the father from being close, taking this connection away from the baby".
I was really upset today. I can't promise, but I'll try to get more distant again. I'm thinking again about the rational path: wait for the birth and have the DNA exam.
This week it was really hard preventing myself from buying pregnant clothes to her and things for my PB :roll:. I am also putting on hold returning to singing and guitar lessons.
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Hi Hardtotrust,
There is so much on your plate. So many people with so many different view points. Your friend, the therapist sees it her way. It's like the 5 blind men and the elephant analogy. Do you know that one? One feels it's side and says "it's just like a wall". The next one feels it's trunk an says "no, it's like a fire hose". The next one feels it's tail and says "no it's not, it's like a rope." The next one feels it's leg and says "no, it's like a tree trunk". The next one feels it's ears and says "no, no,no it's like a fan."
All our different angles are valid from our own personal understanding and personal viewpoints, but only you know all of your complexities.
Hoping you find some peaceful time to think and sort it all out in a way that works for you, and hopefully make time to exercise, sauna and relax.
Papillon
It is exercise alone that supports the spirits, and keeps the mind in vigor.
Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Thanks Papillon!
I was just thinking of you and reading some of your posts.
I really appreciate everything I have heard here. Yes, there are many different viewpoints, but I think they all apply, if not now, a moment later, as the situation changes. They complement each other.
Sauna... I don't even remember the last time I went to one. Good idea!
Thank you!
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Together with my lawyer, we are already studying the legal measures that will be taken if she doesn't agree with the exam.
Whew. I'm really glad to hear this, HTT...
I think you're right, that the rational approach is going to be better for you.
So much sturm und drang doesn't help you prepare either for fatherhood or for stepping into the next chapter of your life as a not-yet-father.
Either way, what matters is to build the new belief that you can cope, and not just cope, but find happiness.
Hops
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Hi HTT,
I'm so sorry to hear what you have been going through. So much on your plate.
I have been reading through your post and I was wondering do you know everything about the Dr's and her pregnancy?
I don't know how old you both are but I did notice that you say she was getting near age to make the decision to have children now.
I know this is a long shot, long long shot but!! Do you think she had any testing? Like these.
Amniocentesis / Chorionic Villus Sample (CVS) Prenatal Paternity Test
I had both.
I had the amniocentesis after my first child being a trisomy #18 and had the CVS with my last child because of my age 38.
Now this was voluntary test but I took it to make sure my baby was ok.
Just wondering because then you can establish paternity but I don't think you can court order her to do it. It can be risky.
Love
Deb
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I think you're right, that the rational approach is going to be better for you.
So much sturm und drang doesn't help you prepare either for fatherhood or for stepping into the next chapter of your life as a not-yet-father.
Either way, what matters is to build the new belief that you can cope, and not just cope, but find happiness.
Thank you, Hops!
I guess I am not still acting very rationally but I have improved. I am much more detached and cautious, although it is still a dangerous position I am at.
That's a very good point, not just cope, but find happiness. I need to think about that.
I have been reading through your post and I was wondering do you know everything about the Dr's and her pregnancy?
I don't know how old you both are but I did notice that you say she was getting near age to make the decision to have children now.
I know this is a long shot, long long shot but!! Do you think she had any testing? Like these.
Amniocentesis / Chorionic Villus Sample (CVS) Prenatal Paternity Test
Just wondering because then you can establish paternity but I don't think you can court order her to do it. It can be risky.
Hi Deb!
Yes, I tried to talk her into having these tests. But she didn't like the idea. I researched, found out that at her age it is common practice to have the amniocentesis which would provide the material for the paternity test as well. But, since there is a risk, although small, to lose the baby in the process, there's no way I could try to force the idea. Her doctor doesn't like the idea of the exam, either.
Thank you!
Update: yesterday she sent a message, she scheduled the ultrasound to determine the sex of the baby (20 weeks) for Monday, at a time I can go. Not fond of meeting her mother, but I am going to be there, watch my PB!
Hugs!
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Dear Htt,
I would not do an amniocentisis unless really needed. One of my friends had a miscarriage after it. The ultrasound will be good. It is so neat to see the baby.
Thinking of you and sending prayers and good thoughts your way. Hugs, Ami
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It sounds like Tina DID go to a sperm bank ---- YOU! This is trademark N behavior - to use people with no regard for their feelings.
I am so sorry you got caught up in this family's craziness. I agree with Hops - I believe your own sanity and survival rest on the legal avenue of establishing paternity. If it's not yours, you perhaps can rest better and stay away. If it is yours, perhaps you can get a restraining order to keep her from aborting the baby. Who says she's gonna keep it anyway after it's born???
Your pain is very evident in your words, HTT. You have my deepest sympathy and wishes for your healing.
towrite
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The ultrasound will be good. It is so neat to see the baby.
Wow, I have seen a few on youtube and it's amazing. Too bad I'm not sure the child is mine, so I can't get more excited about it. Also, even if that wasn't the problem, I feel it would not be wise anyway to have a great display of emotions, she seems to have a problem with that.
Thank you, Ami!
It sounds like Tina DID go to a sperm bank ---- YOU! This is trademark N behavior - to use people with no regard for their feelings.
LOL!!!!! That's right! I tried to charge her, but wasn't very successful. Seems to me I am the one who will foot the bill.
I am so sorry you got caught up in this family's craziness. I agree with Hops - I believe your own sanity and survival rest on the legal avenue of establishing paternity. If it's not yours, you perhaps can rest better and stay away. If it is yours, perhaps you can get a restraining order to keep her from aborting the baby. Who says she's gonna keep it anyway after it's born???
Well, right now it doesn't seem she would consider abortion. I was afraid of that in the first three months. Now she has so much attention, she would think of losing it.
Oh, and the entitlement reaches new levels. Today I went with her to the third and last class for pregnant women. At coffee break, she started to walk beside the line waiting to get food, trying cutting in line. Remember, it is a course for pregnant women. She is so entitled that every woman in line is pregnant, but her pregnancy is special! Maybe she is more pregnant than the others! I held her purse and asked "Where are you going?" and made her stay in my position in line.
After it is born, even if she doesn't want it, her mother will keep it hiring whatever personnel necessary. That seems the most probable option at the moment.
A friend of mine said that she was very confident that it was mine, because Tina visited me at work, in a way taking a stand. That's correct, but we are talking about an N, and they really believe their lies and fantasies.
Thanks, Towrite!!!
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Dear Htt,
You seem to have gotten much more peace inside yourself,since you started on the board. You seem like you are handing a hard situation with equanimity. Am I right? Ami
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You seem to have gotten much more peace inside yourself,since you started on the board. You seem like you are handing a hard situation with equanimity. Am I right?
Yes, and all the people here have helped extraordinarily.
Well, maybe you are right about handing the situation with equanimity. On the one hand, time has helped me detaching. On the other hand, when she invited me to the pregnancy course, I was present and one of the most painful issues, that was being completely absent from the pregnancy of my PB, disappeared.
It still hurts. Today I went to a bookstore to choose a book about babies, I couldn't. Each one talked about the couple, one helping another. I got sick. I felt robbed once again.
Thank you, Ami!
Do you have any idea who the other candidate for fatherhood might be? If there is one?
Yes, but the list of possibilities isn't short. The first one could be a judge in the countryside, she slept at his house when she went to town to work there, twice a month. When we were together, she was returning at the end of the day, but she worked at another cities very close. Usually when she slept in one of these cities and I phoned her she was very strange, very cold and distant. Other possibility is a dance instructor that she was involved with and refused to end contact. The other one is her boyfriend of seven years, which is still contacting her today, she says.
These are the three main possibilities. But she "joked", for example, that she was going to do it with her therapist. Later I found out he is a fraud and had an affair with his secretary, so I can't count on his professionalism. She also "joked" that she would have "a quick one" with her neighbor.
She had a history of involvement with patients as well. And she had a lot of patients, because she does psychological evaluations. I saw an e-mail where one patient was sorry that she couldn't make it to their date.
I am not going to tell you about one of the possibilities, because it is downright scary.
I expect you wouldn't, but the thought came to me that with your desire to becomes a father, she just might be doing some of these 'so-called encouraging' things to keep you on the hook and then blow you out of the water! A true N would have no problem being that cruel.
But she is keeping your attention all the way along.
I hope with whatever excitement you might feel at the prospect of being as daddy, you can do it with the detachment that you just might not be.
You don't know for a fact there is another prospect, as you have only her word and what does that count for?---getting your attention.
Thank you for reminding me about that! Thank you! These days I have been a little less defensive and that is very dangerous with N's. I do agree with you, she might just be encouraging me, just in case I am needed. And she has been extremely cruel before, not only with me. She is sadistic.
Although in the last contacts I have been present and less combative, I have anyway improved my detachment. For example, I haven't touched her, not even her belly. That would be unthinkable some time ago.
Tomorrow will be a great test, meeting the family for the ultrasound.
I needed to hear words like that. I need to remember how cold she was and is.
Thank you, Grandma Izzy!!!
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Wow HTT,
I didn't realize she was that promiscuous. That must be awful,for you. I can't really imagine that kind of pain. It seems that down deep, you still have feelings for her,but wish you didn't. I could be wrong,of course. I, still ,think that you are the F,though. It is my intuition.
You are handling it so well, right now. I am amazed. I really am. You took people's help and really "ran with it".
You are an inspiration,Htt. Love Ami
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Yes, yesterday I missed her. I wish I had completely forgotten her. But detachment has gone a long way already.
Thank you, Ami, you are so kind! But YOU all here are my inspiration! The board has been very important to me.
Thank you!
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Ami, your prayers were very effective!
There was no problem. Only her mother and sister went there.
And the baby is a...
Girl!!!
Many seasoned people always told me I would be a father of girls. If it is mine, the prediction is being confirmed.
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Yesterday you missed her?--like you were aiming your car at her and she got out of the way? Or an Uzi? Damn it!
.....or your heart longed for the b*tch!?
Loooool!!!!
Izzy, by this phrase alone I can see you REALLY had at least one N in your life!!! Lol!
With all the things I did wrong, at least I knew who my daughter's father was. I cannot imagine being in that conundrum!!
A few woman have told me that. They sad that if they were challenged any minute about the paternity, they would immediately have a DNA exam.
Dissociate! That is what I have done with everyone who ever wronged me in the toxic sense. It was the very, very best thing I did for myself. After that I felt all resentments and anger disappear.
Thank you, Izzy!
Since at this moment I am inclined to believe it's mine and I do forget things that happened quite easily, I know I really need advice like that, to get real. And by what you say, I can see you have really been there. And, as you said, even if it's mine, she is toxic, she has proved it before, not once but many times.
hoping you are not into fairytale thoughts about all this. It is very serious!!!!!
You're right. I have a tendency to fantasize.
I was thinking yesterday... At this moment she's in her most fragile and lonely situation in her adult life. And she has been this difficult. Imagine when she's ready to party again...
I just started today to read the member's stories. I will jump immediately to yours.
Thank you!