Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on February 17, 2008, 08:35:14 AM
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As I was reading a post on this board today, the thought had occurred to me of "why wouldn't this person want a friend there with them through what they are enduring?" (this post is in no way meaning to invalidate anyone; it just spurred on some concerns I have. I feel concerned for the person whose post I read, but this is not directly in reference to them per se)
It doesn't matter whether it is: a person giving a gift to you, a person accompanying you on a journey, a person giving a compliment...
It baffles me when I buy someone a gift and they say "oh you SHOULDN'T have." I never know how to respond to that statement, which to me is very nonsensical. My first reaction is to say "huhhhhhhhhhh? why NOT?" Or, to just tell them "and DON'T tell me I shouldn't have!"
If I want to come join a friend in a hard situation...doctor appointment that they are scared about, for instance, and they utter to me "oh you don't have to come" to me, I find that irritating and false.
Ok, here is my theory on this stuff: Someone who is keen on using these types of phrases to act like they don't want the other person there or to receive from them, is using covert manipulation. I'm not saying that the manipulative person is evil. I'm saying that they seem to be wanting me to respond like this:
them: "Oh, you shouldn't have"
me: "Of course I should. you soooooooo deserve this!"
them: "you don't need to do that."
me: "I wouldn't have it any other way. I need to be there."
Basically, I think it's a covert form of manipulation to get me to prove that I care.
Another example is online in chat with some people.
them: "I guess you're busy." "you have a lot of other people who need you, I don't wanna take up your time."
And they want me to say "Noooooo, it's fine. I'm not busy. I can talk to you." or "you aren't taking up my time. I have plenty of time to spend with you."
A better way for them to say these things, in my view is:
Gift: "oh wow! look what you bought me! Thank you!"
Accompanying: "you came to be with me? HOW THOUGHTFUL!"
online chat: "Do you have a moment? I need to talk to you, please."
This is, in my view, a much healthier and comfortable way to communicate, rather than acting like you don't want something you really do, but feeling you need to save face, be polite or act like you don't want it. I guess I'm saying that I prefer to be close with people who act "real"
Just some thoughts
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
I think that the person "getting ' the gift, act of love,etc feels like they don't deserve it and so they push it away. I don't think that it is a manipulation,as much as a low self worth.
I can say from experience that it IS hard to recieve love.I have been working on recieving love b/c it is important to be able to give AND recieve love.
I know that my M would throw away presents that I gave her. Later, I found out thst she did not feel worth "it", and that is why she did it.
After Scott died, I had many people giving to me and I made the decision to recieve b/c it IS an act of love on MY part, to recieve.. I HATE it whenI give s/one a "gift"(time, an item etc) and they reject it. It hurts me, so *I* have to be grateful and willing to receive, too.
That is how I see it,Laura. Love to you, Ami
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Your answer, CB,was what I was trying to express---- shame.
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Many high school students do not want to listen to the teacher, do not want to do any work, and do not want to be in school. Same way, many adults do not want to use help. Probably they are emotionaly, as mature as a teen ager.
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Yep. I would have never asked for help in the old house because it was beyond help. At least without the shame. I have MaidPro come to my house to clean - do not know them. My mom suggested I have this girl from church. No. She knows me and that would make me feel too vulnerable.
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This is meandering past the topic, but hope it's welcome.
I've been refining my thoughts about the Help Swap service I'd like to start at church. Thought I'd like to run it by youse guys.
My priority is to keep it very simple. Here's what I'm thinking:
Send an email to the church. Email:
I'd like to start a Help Swap service in our community, that people can turn to in order to give help, and receive help. It does not involve money. The concept is simple. Anyone who would like to participate indicates by emailing me that they would like to be added to the Help Swap email list. (This presumes they are willing to receive every Help Swap Request in their Inbox.) Help is limited to 2 hours of the Help Swappers' time, scheduled at mutual convenience. Any limitations on help you can give, note them briefly (e.g., can't do lifiting, allergic to cats, evenings only) AND list 6 kinds of help you'd like to give in your "add me to Help Swap list" email. Once help is given, Helper is expected to ask the Helpee for help back (something Helpee can/wants to do) within three months. If the Helpee chooses not to call on the Helper within that time to arrange help back, this Swap is finished. No further obligation. If a Helpee cannot respond to a Help Swap request (either their Helper's or a new one) at least once a year, they should ask to be taken off the list. This is honor system, nobody's going to track it. You can make and fulfill Help Swap requests as often as you like. Plan ahead when you can and you'll have better luck. (If you make a request Thursday for the following Saturday you might get the help you need--or not.) Please put Help Swap Request in the email Subject line, and limit description to 100 words. That's it. Some examples:
--sorting photos
--filing
--leaf raking
--closet organizing
--window washing
--garage cleanout
--packing to move
--gardening
--kitchen cabinet sorting
--light housecleaning
--washing curtains
--oil change
--washing car
--doing taxes
--planting bulbs
--babysitting
--decluttering
--setting up file system
--freezing or canning
--sewing
--cooking lesson
--decorating
--rewiring lamps
--painting walls
--minor home repairs
--shopping expedition
--setting up budget
--career advice
What do you think?
love
Hops
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Dear Hops,
That's a great idea.
I have been in a church that had a wonderful " Needs Help " in which I participated. For the community, church goers or none.
where we did what you have listed.
And, where I live now, I have been asked to bring that church / community experience to the table
as we are going to set up the same; "Needs Help" for the community as a whole.
Just thought I would share that with you, as an encouragement.
Leah x
PS > Oh, and the "Help" was certainly Shared amongst us all. It worked great, and all had so much fun and friendship, out of it all.
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That's good to know, Leah!
I've sent it off to the ministers and a couple of church leaders for feedback.
thank you,
Hops
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Hi everyone,
This discussion is a mixed bag for me.
It really doesn't bother me when people say, Oh, you shouldn't have. I just say back, Oh darn, but I did."
I also try to be sensitive and weigh whether or not they would rather I had not done it, whatever it is. Or outright ask them saying something like, It really blessed me to do this for you, but if you'd rather I didn't rush in in the future with my idea of what is good for you, I won't for I recognize that I don't always know the right action to take.
I think that formulating a one size fits all plan of action is hard to accomplish. Sensitivity is called for and plain old open communication. Something like, I would feel blessed to accompany you to your trial date, but only if my being there would comfort you. Tell me how you feel about it.
I think we should assume good intentions when someone we know offers assistance. I also, think we have the right to decline with gratefulness and that the one offering should understand that a grateful no thank you means, no thank you and leave it at that. Having the other person decline our offer doesn't call for indulging in feelings of rejection. Neither does it necessarily mean we shouldn't offer that person assistance in the future. Probably all it meant was that they didn't need our offer of assistance on this particular occasion.
THEN there is the other extreme. Folk who never hear the No, thank yous. They impose their 'help' with no thought of what the other person's preference or what might be a better alternative.
Bean - I appreciate your sentiments, but over the years, I've learned not to give garments as gifts. There are just too many variables to expect it to turn out good for the giver and receiver. And old folk, usually are not shy about telling you if they don't like something OR what you should or shouldn't do. I wouldn't let the incident with the 83 year old friend ruffle you.
Hops - I like your idea. It's hard to wrangle people toward a goal like you present though. I'll be interested to see how it works. If it does, I may copy your idea in my little church if you say yes.
tt
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I appreciated ALL the comments on my topic here. It really gave me something to think about.
So, not accepting a gift or company of another, can mean what I said or just be a feeling that one wants to do things for oneself, or shame, or uncertainty of the motives of another...things like that.
Wow, thank you all and again, I want to say that I meant no personal attacks in my post or views on this. I am intrigued about how different people see things.
Thank you so much again for these and other comments.
~Laura
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I think that formulating a one size fits all plan of action is hard to accomplish.
I agree with your point.
I think we should assume good intentions when someone we know offers assistance.
Actually, I can think of many instances when good intentions arenot behind an offer. In my N family such offers came in many dark guises. Offers of gifts and seeming kindnesses were really smokescreens for inducing obligations, or establishing controlling strings or were simply unwanted offerings that were offered so that I could be declared rude b/c I declined the offer and many other nefarious intentions.
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Hi GS,
I think we should assume good intentions when someone we know offers assistance.
Actually, I can think of many instances when good intentions arenot behind an offer. In my N family such offers came in many dark guises. Offers of gifts and seeming kindnesses were really smokescreens for inducing obligations, or establishing controlling strings or were simply unwanted offerings that were offered so that I could be declared rude b/c I declined the offer and many other nefarious intentions.
I agree with you completely. I should have worded what I said more carefully. It would have been more appropriate to say, "I think we should assume good intentions when someone we know and trust offers assistance".
tt
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Hi,
I may be a rather weird person!!!! but I have cut my possessions down to the minimum I can. I find it difficult if someone buys me a gift that I don't want or need. I am gracious enough to thank them but when I say You shouldn't have.........its what I mean. I usually assume a good intention but to be honest I am not a collector of things and live in a tiny space so I feel an obligation to be kind to the giver and am then thinking what am I going to do with this thing. I have been clear with people I know that I don't want for anything, flowers are always gratefully received, oh and book vouchers but other than that I have enough of everything. My needs are pretty simple. My experience is that people do not listen or hear what I say a lot of the time. Mmmm maybe the gift giving is not about me!!!!
axa
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ahhhhhh Axa, you put a very interesting twist into this topic for sure.
Here is a person, Axa, who GENUINELY does not WANT people to buy her things, so she says "you shouldn't have" LEGITIMATELY.
My point in this topic, which Axa just hit on so perfectly, is to BE REAL, not try to mask the true feelings, by cliche words.
Axa really is stating a feeling and a preference graciously...however, other people say "oh you shouldn't have" really meaning:
1.) what a weird looking thing! what IS this thing anyway?
2.) awww she bought me exactly what I wanted!
3.) maybe if I act aloof, she'll keep buying me nice things.
4.) I don't DESERVE to have nice gifts given to me.
All I'm saying is BE REAL, PLEASE! One of the first steps to breaking the bondages put on us in dysfunctional relationships, is FEELING AND STATING OUR REAL PREFERENCES AND EMOTIONS ABOUT THINGS...not using cliche and niceties to beat around the bush, pretend, or cover up what we really think and feel.
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
I see the problem as that we don't KNOW what we think or feel. That was my problem. We are lost to our true selves by shame and lies. We are not trying to be phonies. We are lost(IMO).
Do you know what I mean, Laura? Ami
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That's interesting, Axa...that the gift-fiving isn't about you. I think it's a mix in most (benign, non-N) cases. Partly, the giver feels a surge of pleasure imagining giving the gift to the givee. Partly, the giver feels pleased with her/himself for her generosity.
I know when I gave gifts to NMom she so often dumped a blanket over my pleasure by saying, You shouldn't have, and frowning at the gift. I finally got assertive about it and would say, "When you say that, you take away my pleasure in giving you a gift!" Didn't make much of a dent, of course, but she'd look kind of...curious, about that point.
Could've saved myself a lot of money over the years if I'd taken her literally.
Hops
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This is an interesting thread, many thanks Laura
I enjoy choosing a gift for a friend and have been complimented on how I take care in choosing something apt and meaningful for a person.
A couple of years ago, a dear friend of mine of several years -- seemed pleased with her birthday gift, which tied in nicely with her hobby, the reason for my choice of gift for her. She thanked me with a face that had lit up and was really pleased with my gift -- so I perceived that all was well. We happily went out for a birthday meal and enjoy chatting away about this and that, when all of a sudden she blurted out; "some people only give nice gifts to buy a friendship"
Her facial expression and tone of voice matched her words. At that point we had been close friends for 9 years!!!
Stunned is an understatement -- I felt bewildered. I was voiceless in the situation.
From that day on: she ceased presenting me with a gift (xmas / birthday) -- so then, I ceased also, as I simply did not know what to do. We continue to exchange greeting cards.
Leah x
PS > I would add that quite simply, in acceptance, I simply accept her thoughts and actions, as her own -- and act with respect.
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CB: Laura, there is no shame in NOT saying what you are thinking, if saying it will hurt someone else.
I agree. There are times to not blurt out something hurtful to a child or a well-meaning person.
I was referring to the Be true to God, self, others idea.
Saying "no, you don't have to do that," to a friend who started washing your dishes, when actually you are thrilled that they are doing them, is PHONY! that was what I was getting at.
In that case, it's honest to say "wow, I appreciate you helping me."
I can see your points, CB. It's not right to bring children into something so volatile as court, and there are times when you need to do things for yourself, but if you really had wanted your husband there, it was not honest to tell him you didn't. I'm still not real sure why you are trying to tell me that it's ok to not ask for or admit what you truly wanted in this situation, especially something so stressful where a companion, as you said yourself, was warranted and comforting.
~Laura
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Hi Laura,
Just a thought that occured to me -- are you referring to the adage; " Let your Yes be Yes -- and your No be No "
as in being true to yourself, and to others? Genuine and sincere.
> Not false, superfical, two-faced, phoney -- that sort of thing.
Of course, consideration and respect for the other person comes into it also.
Just wondering. Compost as you may wish. :)
Leah x
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Just a thought that occured to me -- are you referring to the adage; " Let your Yes be Yes -- and your No be No "
Leah, that is a GOOD point. I think it's also a good idea too, where able to do so.