Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on February 17, 2008, 10:13:34 AM
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I am very angry and I am going to express it. Carolyn chose the moment when I was the weakest,in my entire ,life to "work" out her feelings of "judging" people i.e. judging ME for my son's suicide. She told me that she "could not offer me a condolonce" b/c she was "judging".
Then, after other people intervening, she said that she "didn't realize" that she was being hurtful.
I want to say that that was N behavior. I am not saying Carolyn is an N. I am saying that an N gets you when you are down and has NO empathy.
THAT was N behavior and I am going to say it right out.
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Ami,
I will try to be glad for you - - and I will try to look at this as though expressing your anger at me may help you along in your healing.
On the other hand, there is not a single person here who has not exhibited N behavior, Ami. Not a single one, including yourself.
I have never rubbed your nose in your own poor behavior, Ami. If I had some tragic event befall me, would I then have the right to do that?
I have apologized to you, Ami, for my boorish, insensitive, self-seeking approach to this. What I thought was an honest confession which could bring a deeper understanding, freedom, and intimacy - - well, I was totally wrong, especially in my timing.
There are no perfect people.
Carolyn
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WHY did you wait ALL this time, Carolyn, to work out your issues? Doesn't it seem a little strange,maybe "not " so simple, would you say?
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WHY did you wait ALL this time, Carolyn, to work out your issues? Doesn't it seem a little strange,maybe "not " so simple, would you say?
I don't know, Ami.
You make it sound like I deliberately planned to feel the way I do. Do you deliberately plot your feelings? My error was not in feeling as I did, but in expressing it publicly. I see that. But you've never indicated a bit of concern for me, whatsoever, and so it never occurred to me that something I would feel or express would hurt you.
I've only been able to even recognize my feelings for a short while now. And now I feel like you get to sit way high up on your own throne of judgment because I'm expected to have all my ducks in a row, unlike you - who are allowed to be handicapped.
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Dear Ami,
Yes, it is true, none of us are perfect, myself included. Yet, that does not excuse any behavior or lack of accountability. It does not
It is NO excuse for blatantly using someone, a woman, a mother in her early stages of grief, as an object, to work through some self absorbed need of working out from being "judgemental" etc etc - and whatever other self absorbed needs.
Where was the consideration of another?
I resonate with the outpouring from your heart, Ami, indeed I do, for I identity, as I too, was an object, for a purpose, then discarded. And all the rest is plain to * see * as those in silence * see * also, of which I know.
I am going to speak openly and honestly only about what has taken place on the board, and can therefore be verified, by the postings themselves:
In all honesty, I was shocked that an outwardly professing "Bible" Christian would treat another Christian like that -- yet experience tells me, that this does happen. However, what would Jesus do ?
I was shocked: that the days - weeks - prior to your sad loss -- every day Carolyn was posting with Bible Scriptures to you, in constant flow of posts to you -- giving "support" to you in your healing.
Then you had your sudden sad loss -- and you were "cut-off"
Carolyn judged and decided in her action - or none.
I have apologized to you, Ami, for my boorish, insensitive, self-seeking approach to this. What I thought was an honest confession which could bring a deeper understanding, freedom, and intimacy - - well, I was totally wrong, especially in my timing.
How anyone can use a mother in the early stages of grief for the purpose of working out a self-absorbed need -- is a revelation.
Ami, your voice is valid.
Leah x
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Leah,
Your own pathologies are coming through loudly and clearly here.
Ami,
The twists with which Leah is attempting to spin my behavior are totally false.
I was not trying to work out some self-absorbed need in confessing to you my prior feelings.
I was trying to confess to you my own lack and tell you that I sincerely am deeply sorry for your loss.
That is all.
And Leah,
I have not attempted to rub your nose in your own N behaviors and I will not begin now. I backed off from interaction with you when I witnessed the manner in which you treated newcomers to the board and I completely stopped interacting with you when you refused to respond to my subsequent questions re: your behavior to me. I don't know whether that was right or wrong, but it was the best I knew to do.
Ever since I apologized to Ami, you have consistently sought to bash me to her. I don't know how you could possibly see anyone else, with all the logs in your own eye.
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Pathological Lies -- ALL of it.
Projection.
Leah
PS > The only newcomer that I have ever had a problem with at FIRST was Hermes
Someone sent me a PM with a warning.
However, I resolved that -- with Hermes.
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Carolyn,
Pathological Lies -- ALL of it.
Leah
Leah,
You're seeing the inside of your eyelids, not me.
I wish you the best, but I will not engage with you further. I stopped before for valid reason and will not resume.
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Projection.
It was I -- that stopped communication with you.
I can verify.
Leah
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That is a boundary which I am setting for the sake of my own emotional wellbeing.
That is exactly the reason for my dis-engaging from you, Carolyn.
Here is my posting on this thread.....
I am going to speak openly and honestly only about what has taken place on the board, and can therefore be verified, by the postings themselves:
In all honesty, I was shocked that an outwardly professing "Bible" Christian would treat another Christian like that -- yet experience tells me, that this does happen. However, what would Jesus do ?
I was shocked: that the days - weeks - prior to your sad loss -- every day Carolyn was posting with Bible Scriptures to you, in constant flow of posts to you -- giving "support" to you in your healing.
Then you had your sudden sad loss -- and you were "cut-off"
Carolyn judged and decided in her action - or none.
I have apologized to you, Ami, for my boorish, insensitive, self-seeking approach to this. What I thought was an honest confession which could bring a deeper understanding, freedom, and intimacy - - well, I was totally wrong, especially in my timing.
How anyone can use a mother in the early stages of grief for the purpose of working out a self-absorbed need -- is a revelation.
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Wow...I hadn't read this exchange. Oh, how I dislike it when we hurting people hurt people.
Last month when I was so sad and so down I had many people jump on me....it really pushed me off the edge.....
Be careful people. Sometimes people are REALLY hurting and need a little compassion until they get on their feet!
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Ami,
If you want to repeatedly tell me how angry you are, I will repeatedly tell you how sorry I am for hurting you. I am willing to do that.
If you want me to not post to you again, I will honor that.
There is nothing else I can do.
You get the benefit of the doubt in this, as far as I'm concerned,
but
I will not sit back and take abuse from another poster on this board who is twisting the truth
and trying to use your valid gripe against me to punish me for her own warped reasons.
That is abuse, and if it continues, I will ask Dr. Grossman to intervene.
That is a boundary which I am setting for the sake of my own emotional wellbeing.
Carolyn
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Hi everybody,
This thread will be locked at the end of the day (Eastern time).
Richard
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> I note that you have deleted your post # 9....... to move it down one!!!
That is a boundary which I am setting for the sake of my own emotional wellbeing.
That is exactly the reason for my dis-engaging from you, Carolyn.
Here is my posting on this thread.....
I am going to speak openly and honestly only about what has taken place on the board, and can therefore be verified, by the postings themselves:
In all honesty, I was shocked that an outwardly professing "Bible" Christian would treat another Christian like that -- yet experience tells me, that this does happen. However, what would Jesus do ?
I was shocked: that the days - weeks - prior to your sad loss -- every day Carolyn was posting with Bible Scriptures to you, in constant flow of posts to you -- giving "support" to you in your healing.
Then you had your sudden sad loss -- and you were "cut-off"
Carolyn judged and decided in her action - or none.
I have apologized to you, Ami, for my boorish, insensitive, self-seeking approach to this. What I thought was an honest confession which could bring a deeper understanding, freedom, and intimacy - - well, I was totally wrong, especially in my timing.
How anyone can use a mother in the early stages of grief for the purpose of working out a self-absorbed need -- is a revelation.
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Hi everybody,
This thread will be locked at the end of the day (Eastern time).
Richard
Thank you, Dr. Grossman.
Carolyn
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How anyone can use a mother in the early stages of grief for the purpose of working out a self-absorbed need -- is a revelation
THIS(above) is what I call no empathy, Carolyn. This is what I mean is N behavior, Carolyn.
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How anyone can use a mother in the early stages of grief for the purpose of working out a self-absorbed need -- is a revelation
THIS(above) is what I call no empathy, Carolyn. This is what I mean is N behavior, Carolyn.
I understand, Ami. What would you like me to do?
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. And now I feel like you get to sit way high up on your own throne of judgment because I'm expected to have all my ducks in a row, unlike you - who are allowed to be handicapped.
Carolyn,
Since you are asking, the statement above is still trying to "bring me down",Carolyn.
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Carolyn,
I am going to be honest. I could see how you could have issues with me,in the past. However, to try to hurt me now,is just BEYOND.
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. And now I feel like you get to sit way high up on your own throne of judgment because I'm expected to have all my ducks in a row, unlike you - who are allowed to be handicapped.
Carolyn,
Since you are asking, the statement above is still trying to "bring me down",Carolyn.
Ami,
My statement above was an attempt to show you how you are judging me, but as I've learned here recently, in cases like this - my own perspective is beside the point.
I apologize for coming across to you as trying to bring you down, Ami.
You are still saying that I tried to hurt you and that is not true.
What I tried to do was be honest with you so that there would be no shadow of my past judgment between us.
I confessed my past wrong and only dug my hole deeper. I am sorry. If you think that I should now wallow in shame for eternity then I think you are wrong.
Carolyn
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What I tried to do was be honest with you so that there would be no shadow of my past judgment between us.
I confessed my past wrong and only dug my hole deeper. I am sorry. If you think that I should now wallow in shame for eternity then I think you are wrong.
See Carolyn,
The above statement would be classified as an N apology. Instead of leaving it at "I am sorry", you have to throw a barb at ME,as if it is MY fault that you erred.
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What I tried to do was be honest with you so that there would be no shadow of my past judgment between us.
I confessed my past wrong and only dug my hole deeper. I am sorry. If you think that I should now wallow in shame for eternity then I think you are wrong.
See Carolyn,
The above statement would be classified as an N apology. Instead of leaving it at "I am sorry", you have to throw a barb at ME,as if it is MY fault that you erred.
Ami, Honestly, I don't think an N would still be sitting here talking with you... but I see what you're saying.
What you are hearing as a barb thrown at you is so far from that...
maybe I am not speaking directly enough.
It is not your fault that I erred, Ami.
It is my fault that I got stuck on my own judgment of you wayyy back and did not take it in prayer to resolve it until so much time had passed. That statement, right there, is what I was trying to confess to you in my post which started all this. That I was wrong and that I am sorry.
None of that is your fault, Ami.
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
in the past,I have been immature,on the board. I can see how you would have bad feelings toward me. I can see how you could have built up animosity against me. Carolyn.
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Carolyn,
in the past,I have been immature,on the board. I can see how you would have bad feelings toward me. I can see how you could have built up animosity against me. Carolyn.
Ami, Thank you. That's very gracious of you to say.
I don't feel animosity toward you, though... it's been more like an acting out of my old learned habit of giving up on someone... a horrible habit of which I'm trying to rid myself.
I wish that you had been able to write this post initially to me, directly... addressed to me... but I don't know whether I could have done that, either... and I completely understand why you would not feel safe enough to do so. You and I are alot different ... and yet, maybe not so different. I don't know. But we've certainly rubbed each other the wrong way enough times to make it more difficult to establish any basis of trust.
Please understand... I am not asking you to trust me. Because I know that there is a lack of connection between us, I have purposefully not posted to your threads, so that I would not cause you pain or disruption. When you included my name in your recent post about something you'd learned from Ann, my "confession" just came blurting out... not to cause harm, but to end a conflict which had been going on within me, internally. It was dumb and thoughtless and boorish.. but not cruel, Ami. Cruelty has never been my intent, not with anyone, not even with those who have caused me great distress. Not ever.
I'm thankful that you and I have been able to talk a bit here without interference. Thank you.
Carolyn
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Well, Carolyn, I am ready to let it go. I expressed myself, which I had to. You expressed yourself and we had our voices. Ami
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Well, Carolyn, I am ready to let it go. I expressed myself, which I had to. You expressed yourself and we had our voices. Ami
I'll take your word for that, Ami. I'm ready to let it go, too. Thank you very much for honoring me by discussing this with me directly
and not allowing this to turn into a free-for-all.
and thanks to all the board members who also allowed Ami and me to speak with each other, without interfering.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Well, Carolyn, we both serve the "Most High", we have to have SOME manners(LOL) Ami
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Well, Carolyn, we both serve the "Most High", we have to have SOME manners(LOL) Ami
lol... Ami, your sense of humor often catches me off guard.
That was a very sweet comment, thank you.
I'll work on my manners, by His grace.
Carolyn
P.S. you are welcome to pm me if there ever is a need/concern/whatever
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Thank you, Carolyn. You, too.
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You guys rock!!!! :lol:
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I admire you both for the way you chose to end this. That takes alot of guts and courage. I could not have been easy for either of you.