Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Somebody on July 20, 2004, 12:51:45 AM
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I haven't read much here but I'm thinking I might get away with letting loose in this anonymous environment. I need to do that.
I'm getting too old to carry the stuff I'm lugging around. I grew up in a house that contained an alcoholic-psychopathalogical-liar-nacissist, a label that should exhist somewhere. That would be my diagnosis, if I had the qualifications or licence to give one. That was my father.
My mother was tormented, terrorized, abused severely, eventually paranoid and lost most of her marbles. She was a very good person with a lot to bear, which destroyed her mentallyand physically. She had her weaknesses, like anyone else. She died suddenly at the age of 63. My brother and sister appear to be a lot like my father.
I don't think I am. I have always tried to please and appease. I am "easygoing", I am often told. "Very patient and kind, generous and affectionate". I am "wise" and I have a decent amount of "common sence" (although I'm not a rocket scientist. I worked hard for any "A" I received and there weren't that many). "Average intelligence" was written about me. I know these things are true about me but I have a hard time accepting compliments (and the average intelligence thing was strange. What does that mean? How was that figure arrived at? To be honest, I may be a little above average, but not much, I can't tell. Still, average intelligence isn't a bad thing, yet it seemed to bother me when I read that). I have no criminal record nor do I break the law. I have a great desire to help others but I am not involved in doing so in my community (in any great manner, although I do belong to a small group that does small things). I don't think I am superspecial or any less than anyone else. I am a very positive person, most of the time. I do have trouble understanding cruel and jealous behaviour, although I am trying to learn. I just don't feel those things and I try really hard not to behave in mean ways to people. I've always been happy with the material things I've had and glad for those that have better and / or better relationships etc). I don't think I'm any more or less important than anyone else and I believe most people are good (or trying to behave well). My sence of trust is amazing, considering how many times it's been violated by those who would be expected to respect it. I basically trust people (but I'm not blindly trusting). My self-esteem is at a reasonable level but I carry this awful emotional pain around, which I know I must release.
I guess I'm afraid of doing so. I'm basically a gentle person and I really dislike all nasty expression. There was so much of it growing up and then, in my first marriage, to an alcoholic-narcissist. I spent 17 years of my life trying to please that man, which was impossible. We had two children together. One is showing many narcissistic personality traits and the other, I fear, is even more like my father. It is horrible to think about and face. I can't fix my kids.
I divorced their father and married a man who treats me like gold. He has many good qualities and we get along very well together. We enjoy eachother's company and we have a good relationship. We are respectful and kind to eachother and we laugh a lot. We both work very hard and are successful at what we do. We have a nice life together and everything between us was really good, including sex, until he violated the most basic and deep trust any husband could violate. He committed a sexual act toward my child (many years ago, when we were first married). This was brought to light recently. It was devistating for me to face and I wanted to commit a crime more that moment than any other in my life. However, I told myself not to. To be patient, to seek the whole story.
My child told the information to my sister (both of whom seem to be narcissists). My sister, first, called my close friend and then, the authorities. Also, my ex-family members. Then other friends of mine. She told many people about what my husband had done. She exagerated events, unrelated, and wove them into one story. She added lies. She seemed consumed with hate, which she fed, very clearly to my kids. She treated me like a criminal and demanded I divorce my husband (days after my learning of this past behaviour of my husband). She began calling my house relentlessly and criticizing, in a more than usual way, pretty well my every word, act and every feeling I expressed. She continued to spread stuff to all who would listen. She lied to me, telling me "one of your friends or neighbours already made a report" and that she thought it was my closest friend. (Who could I trust now? Which person reported what- about me??? I hadn't done anything wrong!).
My kids were being influenced by her in big and negative ways. She kept making plans with them, without my knowledge, and getting them to go out with her, without asking me, and calling them on the phone and when they got off the phone----I could feel the tension and the anger from them. They would clam up and wouldn't speak with me. She was feeding them hate.
I met with her and told her that she did the right thing in reporting the information to the authorities and that it was wrong of her to spread this gossip about my family to my friends and others, that is was wrong to monitor me like a criminal, to tell me that awful lie that caused me to feel totally isolated, and it was wrong to feed hate to my kids. I asked her to please stop making this worse. Please stop. Just please stop.
I had only ever confronted her like this once before, in our entire lives.
Her response was "how are you going to stop me?" and "we are now enemies".
I love my sister and I thought we were very close. This was kicking me when I was down. Cruel. Cruel. Rotten and cruel. Just like her father.
Liar. Big-mouth. Full of hate. Sick, selfish, controlling, conniving snake.
My eldest child was old enough to leave (at this point) and did so. She is also showing signs of narcississtic p. disorder. I tried going to therapy with her and the therapist was more interested in lining his pockets than helping our family. He behaved in an unprofessional manner. I was shocked and confused and went to another doctor, who told me this before I could barely finish a few sentences. "This Dr. ____ should not be inserting his opinion and feelings. He should be acting in a professional manner...", he said. I knew my thinking was correct. I stopped going there.
My child saw a special therapist too but I think it made matters worse. Blew things into a much bigger situation. Made my husband's behaviour into a rare, unforgivable, permanent sickness. When the truth was, it was isolated and corrected. And it isn't so rare. It's just that most of us want to believe it is. None of us want to believe that this could happen in our family. How could it? Never!! Anyone who does such a thing is a sick incurable animal!
I decided that I would try to forgive my husband and remain married. I would not condenm him when he was begging for mercy and doing everything possible to show remorse, seek treatment, and take responsibility for his actions. I told my child that none of what had happened to our family was my child's fault and kept professing my love and understanding. My child could not accept my forgiving my husband (and I think the professionals encouraged that attitude and I know my sister did).
Forgiving is simply letting go of ones anger and resentment. It is not an acceptance of behaviour. My husband's behaviour was disgusting and abhorrent and I will never accept it. It sickens me and it is not an easy thing to forgive. Feeling angry and resentful towards him, however, does not do me, or anyone else, any good.
Forgiving helps us heal and it is something we need to do for ourselves, not so much the other person, but I couldn't seem to make my thinking or feelings acceptable to my child. I was wrong to forgive. I should immediately divorce him. I should hate him. He is a monster-period.
The more I looked for the truth of the entire matter the more I realized I must continue to look. My child admitted feeling very jealous of the relationship I had with my husband. There were many difficulties between my child and my husband, especially because my child was so very lazy. It wasn't this behaviour of my husband's that was all that was driving my child to want him out of our home. This baby of mine did not wish to follow anyone's rules. My kid was rebelling against even kind words that were spoken or anything that was asked. My child was afraid for my younger child too.
My husband faced his behaviour and took responsibility for it. He faced the law and the consequences of his act. He offered and kept trying to do anything possible to repair the damage he had caused. He told his mother, infront of me, and his closest friends. He could have kept silent. There was no need to reveal his behaviour to them. He went to therapy. He served his time. He continued to financially support us. He suffered and was degraded by the "tests" and the "reports" and the knowledge that he will be on the sexual offender list forever and that he is a criminal. He can't ever leave the country. Everyone knows what he did and he doesn't deny it. He wrote a letter of appology but it wasn't allowed to be delivered until nearly 2 years after this disclosure. He had to move out of our home immediately and live elsewhere. I believe he is genuinely sorry for what he did and that he will never repeat such behaviour because he knows it is not worth it. He is very lucky and he knows it. Most women would divorce him.
My own therapist tried to make me take the blame for somehow doing something to allow this. I must have done something wrong, according to her. I must have great regrets that I need to purge. I was somehow responsible for his behaviour. (She really didn't like it when I kept telling her that I am only responsible for my own behaviour and no one elses. Neither can I change anyone's but my own). I was traumatized further by this therapist, in many ways. I finally stopped going.
I am now Mrs.Scum of the earth, married to Mr. Scum. My youngest child was gone a few months after the eldest, the one that is most like my father. This child told bold-faced tremendous lies to others, including my sister, which were then reported to the authorities once more. They came to my home and removed this child. Both my husband and I could have gone to jail for things we did not do. I had proof of the truth and produced it, which ended that case but not quick enough, it was another year of hell.
The agony I have suffered because of the behaviour of basically everyone I have ever loved weighs down somewhere very deep within my heart. My friends believed the stories they heard and those that didn't, certainly heard them, so I ended those relationships. I could not stand to face such widespread and mostly untrue gossip or the shame of what my husband did, my sister, and even my own child (the one that lied).
It has been awhile since this nightmare began. It often feels like yesterday. I would like to purge the pain, that's for sure. The joy is gone from my life. I am getting it back a little at a time but I really think I need to get the feelings out, not just the facts, although the facts are a start.
I wish I could speak with another person who has experienced something similar (although I wouldn't wish anything similar on my worst enemy). I just know there has to be someone else in the world who has an understanding of what this torture has been like.
I have to tell the rest of you one thing:
You have no idea until you stand in my shoes.
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A horrible story in most senses of the word! You've centainly placed yourself between a 'rock and a hard place' if nothing else.
No I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I have little experience of your kind of story, so I really don't know what I could say that would help. Life is about choices.....and living with the ones we make. You've made yours, now you've got to live it.
You write very well, far better than I. You're an intelligent woman as would appear to have the 'marbles' as you put it, to move on past this period in your life.
I don't think that you will ever forgive hubby......it is afterall, unforgivable. Because of the family upset that it's caused, it runs far to deep and is an open wound. I hope the right things happen for you and it soughts itself out, though I fear not.
David
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Thankyou for posting and for complimenting my marbles.
You're right that I will never forgive my husband's behaviour. I do, however, choose to forgive him. We are all human and capable of behaving in terrible ways. There is insanity in all of our lives at one time or another and I just can't send my husband to the wolves when he could easily deny (for example) and lie. The behaviour is "unforgivable" but think about admitting doing something like that? How easy is it for any of us to admit doing something wrong, never mind admit something so dispicable? It takes great courage. A person who intends to repeat such behaviour does not face up to it. They do the opposite, especially when their lawyer is telling them that they could easily "win this case" and "get off". My husband stopped his behaviour himself, he "offered" but didn't go any further. He did not continue or complete what he started. That does not erase the fact that he began in the first place, it is still a crime, but it does indicate that he got control of his urges. He did not repeat this behaviour again.
I understand what it feels like to do something extremely immoral and unacceptable. I had an abortion when I was 19. It was legal in the eyes of the law but I know darn well it was not, and is not, legal in the eyes of God. I know what it feels like to regret behaviour and to never want to repeat it again. To take responsibility for it and do everything possible to prevent repeating it. To want to do anything to make up for it. I think this helped me to understand my husband's remorse.
I have no problem living with my choices. What I have difficulty with, I guess, is accepting the way my sister went for my juglar immediately, before I even knew about this. She was spreading it around like so much manure and gathering a war party. I guess I expected her to respect my privacy and give me time to digest this terrible news. I wanted her to respect my right to make decisions. I never would have dreamed that she would add lies to the story and try to totally destroy -my - friendships, my- reputation, my support systems, and totally isolate me. What she did hurt me more than what my husband did. She is my blood. I expected her to try to help my family, not destroy it. I didn't want to believe she is like my father but now I have seen her at her peak. I can't deny it any longer. I do forgive her too because she is sick and only human. I am not angry with her but I do not accept her behaviour either. The difference lies in the fact that she does not admit to doing anything wrong and shows no sorrow. Even when I told her how much she was hurting me and making things worse, she used words to stab me and grind the knife in deeper. I lost my baby sister at that moment. I don't blame my husband for my sister's behaviour. Those were her choices.
I have always hoped that things will work out in my family. I still think they will but it will take a long time. It would be a lot easier to help my children heal if my sister were not feeding them constant hate. Telling both my kids that they "should hate" my husband and "hate" me. Both kids have told me that she frequently tells them this. Who has the right to instill such hate in children?? Against their parent. To me, this too is monstrous, disgusting and abhorrent behaviour. My sister was narcissistic to begin with but now she has the amunision to justify her self-given-superiority and she is using it to cause as much ruin as possible.
My kids have also inherited these N traits. I feel guilty for passing them on. I am honest and I try not to judge harshly. It is so painful for me to watch my children turn into such opposite people. It hurts me to know that my efforts to try to teach them to be kind, good, generous, considerate, loving individuals have been useless. I feel very sad to think of the relationships they will have with others if they continue developing in this manner. And what my sister is doing to encourage them to be like her will further disintegrate my relationship with them.
I feel totally frustrated and very sad due to all of the losses I have endured. Think of losing your trust in your spouse, your relationships as they were with your children, and most of your friends, all in a very short time. It is a horrible story, as you say.
I am still here and I still have the same attitude I have always had, since I was a small child and that is:
"I am not going to let these idiots drive me bananas".
So far, it's working. I just want to do as you say and get further past it. The hurt inside keeps rising up. The grief is hard to imagine.
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You sound quite intelligent to me. I see no "average intelligence" here, maybe it's time to revise your self-image. It must have been hell growing up, and I'm sorry you had to experience that nightmare.
Without excusing your N family members, who sound monstrous, it is understandable to me that your children left, since they may feel you've chosen your husband over them. To them, he cannot be forgiven and his presence in the family is unacceptable. It doesn't matter to them whether he shows remorse, has paid his debt to society, and hasn't repeated his mistake. There are some acts where one time is too many, and the perpetrator will be shunned thereafter. That's possibly unfair but it's not an unusual consequence in this situation.
I hope you can find a therapist who doesn't judge you and who also is very knowledgeable about pathological family dynamics.
bunny
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I decided that I would try to forgive my husband and remain married
Even though I'm sorry for what you went through and all the N stuff, I would have had that man out of my house immediately.
That is one act that is NOT forgivable and I can't beleive you think anyone should. I can see why your kids are angry. You did essentially pick him over them.
Call me judgemental, jump all over me, I don't care. Sexual abuse of a child is EVIL. And IMO that makes you evil as well for staying with him.
MM
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Well as you can see by the last post, the issue of sexual abuse is so visceral, so gut-wrenchingly deep that is stirs up our deepest feelings of repulsion. There is an instinctive recoiling. It is hard to respond to your post but I hear your struggle to understand. I don't know that I have much to say except that as an abused child I see this mostly from your childrens' point of view.
You have done a lot of work around forgiveness that's clear. And I too believe that people don't necessarily have to be condemed forever but you can't expect your children to understand this. It almost seems like you have to make a choice here -life with your husband or life without him and the possiblilty of future contact with your children.
Something about your description of your childhood made me feel the repression and extreme passivity of my own -always trying to understand, always seeing it from the other perspective,never knowing, owning or expressing my own feelings[/b], always trying to make it better by swallowing it all. Do you think you really have allowed yourself to experience a full and honest reaction to what happened? You certainly sound like someone who was raised in a horrific environment and had to stuff your real self away to get through it...like your mom?
I too am trying to figure out forgiveness in my own life but it seems the consequences of you working on forgiveness and managing to do it are that you are losing your children. Perhaps you could put even more effort into understanding what they have been through and must be feeling. I don't know - but when you talked about rasing your children to be kind, loving etc - my alarm bells went off - these are my values as well but they can leave people who overdo it, without defenses, without boundaries, easy prey....I mean you too.
It's a hell of a situation for all of you.
Les
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Hi everyone,
After dealing with two Ns, I have learned to call things what they really are. I make no apology for this. There are people on this board who come here for understanding and it's necessary for us to be gentle with them. This isn't one of those cases. I can not conceive of this board being a safe place for someone who is coddling a child molester. That being said, it's clear that the circumstances of her upbringing are too severe to be dealt with in anything but a clinical setting IMO.
I beleive in protecting children at all costs. First they had to deal with a really bad bio Dad, and then she picks (and yes, she picked him) a person who perpetrated a sexual act on a child. I have a difficult time feeling any sympathy for being labeled "scum" (her words BTW). And I didn't neccessarily get any notion that all of these other people are necessarily Ns.
I say give these kids a break. If they have N tendancies (and I'm not convinced from what I read although I admittedly don't know all the details), is it any wonder? Sheesh. Yes....I am repulsed. No doubt about it.
Being in denial about a blatant reality is sad. And of course we don't know that this guy is "cured" and that he hasn't done the same thing to other kids. She didn't know it about her kids. If he is truly repentent, fine. But he has caused a lifetime of harm to a kid and I don't see any way to reconcile that. I'm ticked off and they aren't even my kids.
MM
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MM,
I think denial is the operative word. She's probably experienced a lot of societal anger and shunning by now which has not influenced her to leave the husband. This is complicated enough so that only a top-notch therapist can deal with it, imo.
bunny
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Please know, I am not attacking anyone on this thread except for the first poster "somebody". I say this because I know Les is a very sensitive person who is an idealist (sees many points of view and has a talent for being very diplomatic). Hugs to you, Les.
MM
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Hugs back MM. I would expect nothing less of the red-caped woman than calling it like it is and/or calling it as you see it.
Nema problema
Les
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I guess I missed a few details. Unfortunately, it is difficult for me to put all of this down without error. It would be impossible for me to put everything on this board.
First, I did not decide to remain married to my husband until almost a year later. He moved out when this was disclosed and remained out of the home.
Second, behaviour such as this does touch our most inner core and causes our feelings of extreme anger and repulsion to surface. That happened to me too. People here seem to have assumed that I have not felt that way, but I did. I was livid. I understand that that is everyone's immediate reaction, including mine. I didn't bottle it up, believe me. But I did wait for an appropriate time to get it out.
I am an RN, for over 20 years. I have learned not to panic in extreme situations. I spent many years of my life dealing with crisis', day after day. I "think" rather than react emotionally when necessary. I remain calm and I am able to look for the facts first. That's what I did here. I remember telling myself "look for the whole truth". I am not in denial. And I will not blow the facts out of proportion either. I am very good at being objective. It is much harder, when it is my own loved ones, the people I care about, to think rather than react, but I told myself that too. I guess, after all those years of dealing with difficult events on such a frequent basis, I formed more of a habit of soothing the people around me. Believe me, you would like that, if it was your child I was doing CPR on, in your home, as you were starting to panic. I worked in the community.
Third, please do not assume that I have not suffered for my child's experience. I have empathized and tried very hard to understand what everyone in my family has felt. I have also tried to relate to each person that empathy and understanding. But the other adults involved, the so-called professionals, did the same as it seems is happening here. They immediately decided what must be done. They told my children what must be done, before knowing all of the facts. And, as I have said, there is my sister.
These decisions about my family are not anyone else's to make. My husband was deemed "very low risk" which is the best anyone can put on paper. The two doctors involved, who had no contact, formed the exact same opinions (which were very positive). My family could have healed from these terrible event had there been proper intervention.
Fourth, I did find a very good therapist, later, who helped me a great deal (and incidently, I left home at 16 and dealt with my childhood experiences at that time. I was able to get past it all. I have been deemed "very well adjusted" and to be perfectly honest, I feel like I am). I guess I was trying to express my disappointment about the judgemental and harmful reactions that first therapist exhibited. I am a professional in my practice. As a professional, it is understood that we are to do what is "therapeautic" for the client, we try to help the person, and keep our own feelings out of it. I know that it takes a great deal of skill and experience to do so. But my therapist caused me harm.
Fifth, my child was not sexually attacked. It was an offer that never occurred. My child has stated that it really didn't interfere with my child's life at all except that it caused worry about the other child (which there was no behaviour of this type at all towards). It was a fear that caused the disclosure (which is perfectly understandable) and jealousy and rebellion. That child has gone on with life and professes to be quite uneffected. The reason for leaving my home was because the child did not like the rules I was asking to be respected. One of which, was that the child look for a summer job, 3 days per week, at the age of 17.
Sixth, my children have been displaying N behaviours for a very long time. Long before I met my husband. Please don't try to tell me that I have caused this too. I carried the genes and that is why I feel guilty. I don't think it is fair to judge me as a mother. I have been a very good mother, just to clarify. You're assuming far too much. I don't know how you can decide you know this?
Seventh, I'm sorry that many of you can only feel anger toward me and I hope you never have to face such a thing. I also hope you never behave in any abhorrent manner yourself and ask for mercy from anyone. And don't think it is impossible because you are just as human as anyone else.
I have not chosen my husband over my children. I chose my family. I chose to try to help my family heal from this and I would have stayed separated from my husband for the rest of my life, if that's what it took.
I told my child that my husband would never come home until my child felt comfortable. Never.
I don't think I am evil or anyone else is. For example, my father was beaten with a pitch fork when he was a kid. When he ran away from home at the age of 12, nobody even bothered to look for him. He behaved in terrible ways during his life and he caused great harm to his family, but I do have empathy for the little boy who was beaten and who nobody loved. That did something to his mind (or maybe, probably, his mind was not right to begin with- I don't know) or at the very least, that treatment made it worse. I do not excuse what he did but I do pity him. I do understand that he was a very sick man. I am not angry with him, I feel very sad for all the pain he experienced and caused, the torment he too fought. Sometimes, he was nice. I forgave him many, many years before he died, but I never told him that. He died a lonely and sick old man.
I have empathy and understanding for other people's feelings and behaviour. That is a quality, not a downfall. I'm really sorry if some of you don't get that much.
I used to think that my father was evil, but I have since learned that we are all just people, often behaving in ways we "think" we cannot control. I also believe we can change our thinking, which will effect the way we feel and behave. I believe it was not a mistake, my husband made, but a choice. He made the choice to behave the way he did and it was a horrendous, monstrous choice. I can't be sure that he will never act like that again, but my instincts and his behaviour since that time, the doctors opinions, etc, are what have directed my choice. I also can't be sure that he won't turn into a raging maniac and shoot 47 people, but I doubt very much he will do either of those things. He too, is fairly intelligent enough to learn that once is too many.
Last, someone else made a similar comment. "It happened before while your children were in your care and it could happen again".
I had no reason not to trust my husband before I found out about this information, but I dooo, have a reason not to trust him now. I will never allow him an opportunity to behave like this around any child in my care, ever again, and if I get any inkling of an indication of his even thinking of such behaviour again, I will be the one to make the phone call, and he knows it!
I posted here because I have been deeply hurt. I did nothing to deserve the way I have been treated by my sister and labelled "Mrs. Scum" (which by the way was not my term). I have felt the pain of each member of my family, as if my own, and my own excruciating pain as well. I am weighted down with grief and I need support.
It is very obvious, I have come to the wrong place.
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You sound good, but I'm not buying.
Sorry. IMO you have come to the wrong place. I had no doubt that you would be back to rework your story......and it came to pass. You didn't disappoint.
You can live with the consequences. If you're okay with it, you don't need to be here anyway. But I'm not cosigning this. You think I'm mean - that's okay with me.
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Somebody,
If you go on a support group, many people will have been abused as children. Therefore, they aren't in a position to empathize with an adult male who abused a child, nor with a spouse who stands by him and forgives him. You start out by saying he had to move out of the house, he paid his debt, etc., but you also minimize whatever happened, as though it is not a big deal. So I was seeing some contradictions which I saw as denial. Your children moved out for whatever reasons. You stay with your husband. Everyone made their choices. There isn't much we can say, really.
bunny
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Somebody. I couldn’t reply to your post before. I’ve learned to ‘sleep on’ my initial feelings, which were close to those felt by MM.
But I think you have come to the wrong place. In your first post you said:
I wish I could speak with another person who has experienced something similar
I have to tell the rest of you one thing: You have no idea until you stand in my shoes.
I have no idea and to be honest, I don’t want to stand in your shoes. I don’t want to empathise that closely with you, sorry, but that’s the truth.
I'm sorry that many of you can only feel anger toward me and I hope you never have to face such a thing. I also hope you never behave in any abhorrent manner yourself and ask for mercy from anyone. And don't think it is impossible because you are just as human as anyone else.
Suppose we were talking about torture or murder here? You say ‘just as human’. I would say ‘just as INHUMAN’, or ‘just as screwed up as the most screwed up people can be’. No, we’re not all that screwed up. You’ll have to take my word for that.
If you really want to talk to people who *perhaps* can empathise, go to http://www.traumasurvival.org/
Note, many of the people on that board are sex-abuse survivors, but as such, they also, I imagine, understand ‘acting out’. Some may be past abusers. The board is run by Legacy who is, I think, a survivor. I’m not ‘setting you up’ here, I have no agenda, I have no ulterior motive. It may help you to talk to people on that board. Good luck.
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One in five and some sources say one in four females- are- sexually assaulted prior to the age of majority, so whether any of you "want to empathize" by standing closely in my shoes, or not, you may not have that choice, at some future, and possibly soon, point in time. I know it is a terrifying thought.
One in ten males admit to sexually assaulting females, (results from anonymous surveys), so that means that it is quite possible that a male you are married to, work with, are friends with, or associate closely with, is doing this, and you, being intelligent people, are also, not aware of it.
One in ten. That means there's probably somebody else's husband, mate, or friend here who has behaved, or is behaving like this.
Those are only the statistics that people are admitting to in blind surveys, look them up, if you don't believe me. This problem is very widespread and it exhists in our own homes, whether we "want to empathize" or not.
I, for one, am very interested in-stopping- this type of behaviour. We used to shun gay people as perverted and doomed to hell too, not so long ago. I don't want child molesters to think that their behaviour is acceptable, but it is far more "normal" than any of us dare to fathom. I want them to feel that they can ask for help and not be treated like monsters. Until we offer some way out, this behaviour will continue to increase and proliferate in our society, as it has been and continues to do. We've already gone the route---burn in hell--- and guess what? It isn't stopping them. There could be one of them reading this right now and you tell me what is going to help that person stop what they are doing, face up to it and seek help? You tell me what will help their victim the most, at this particular moment?
My husband is much less likely to reoffend with me monitoring him. I have not minimized anything nor have I lied. I could have posted a very general message, with no reference whatsoever to sexual anything, and I bet you would have been at least, kind but more than likely, very supportive. The anger that you are all spewing is not really directed at me but at whatever it is that is eating you up inside and it is an expression of your feelings about this type of behaviour. Please do your best to try to get that out in a more appropriate way and get rid of it (and I say this not to hurt anyone's feelings. It's the truth. Anger is very insidious and it will turn to hate. Hate destroys the vessel within which it resides). So don't allow anger to live such a comfortable life. All of this anger isn't fixing a darn thing anyway, is it? But it does stop people from asking for help, which in turn will leave these perpetrators no way to stop, and their victims suffering for a lot longer.
My husband stopped himself before he got very involved in this behaviour but most people who do this type of thing go much further, for much a longer period of time. I keep thinking about how to get them to stop too. Punishing them, after they behave like this for years and years, if they ever get caught, is futile. Severe damage is done to their victims and the perpetrator's behaviour becomes habitual and cemented. There has to be a way to correct this behaviour, and trying to understand it, in my opinion, is the place to start. The science of this problem is not developing fast enough. It's not keeping up with the problem and the problem is growing because of the ignorance of people in general.
I know. I was one of the ignorant people too. I used to think exactly like you do until this happened in my family. I have nursed poor little babies that have been abused. I had a great desire to stop this behaviour from happening and now I have an even greater desire to stop it. I'm not God so I can't do a whole lot but I sure wish I could at least find someone else who has been through this so I wouldn't feel so alone.
You give me potential and hypothetical...situations and ask me to give you answers. Here's one for you. What if this were your son that behaved like this? Think about this very carefully.
I am just somebody who has been greatly abused too. I don't know where you expected me to go besides a support board for abused people and since my Nsister is the area I am having such a hard time with, I thought this N board might help. I agree, it was pretty stupid of me to expect anything better than a tongue lashing. I don't know what any of you expect to gain by giving that to me but I will tell you that I feel a lot worse now than I did before I came here and it took me a very long time to get the guts up to reach out. I cried last evening, all evening, after reading your words and I do know this...
Your words wouldn't hurt me if I were evil.
Good luck to you all. I hope you have learned something. I certainly have. I am now completely sure that I must be dishonest and keep all of these awful secrets and hold whatever pain I have inside or, risk another and repeated attack by ignorant, discourteous, angry, unwilling to empathize persons who "think" they know what they would do in such a situation. I thought I knew that too.
I do hope you all find peace within your lives and that you will reconsider your reactions to this awful problem. And MM, I don't think you are mean. I think you have been hurt very deeply too and I'm sorry for you having to endure that. I hope you continue to try to heal.
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Wow, talk about an 'I' problem.
You're right that I will never forgive my husband's behaviour. I do, however, choose to forgive him. We are all human and capable of behaving in terrible ways. There is insanity in all of our lives at one time or another and I just can't send my husband to the wolves when he could easily deny (for example) and lie. The behaviour is "unforgivable" but think about admitting doing something like that? How easy is it for any of us to admit doing something wrong, never mind admit something so dispicable? It takes great courage.
So he came to you straight after he did it and confessed, did he?
Naaah, of course not, he was happy to live on lies and borrowed time, and was never gonna tell you at all love.
A person who intends to repeat such behaviour does not face up to it. They do the opposite, especially when their lawyer is telling them that they could easily "win this case" and "get off". My husband stopped his behaviour himself, he "offered" but didn't go any further. He did not continue or complete what he started. That does not erase the fact that he began in the first place, it is still a crime, but it does indicate that he got control of his urges. He did not repeat this behaviour again.
Yeah, right. How the hell do you know? How many other little kiddie victims in his past? Do you know for sure there are no others? Do you? He's not going to tell you, is he? And hey, he certainly did enough to blow your family apart. What a great guy! he must really love you.
I understand what it feels like to do something extremely immoral and unacceptable. I had an abortion when I was 19. It was legal in the eyes of the law but I know darn well it was not, and is not, legal in the eyes of God. I know what it feels like to regret behaviour and to never want to repeat it again. To take responsibility for it and do everything possible to prevent repeating it. To want to do anything to make up for it. I think this helped me to understand my husband's remorse.
Irrelevant! Unconnected! Guilt! Guilt drives people nuts. Makes people do crazy things. Like you for example, forgiving and continuing to stay married to a person who molests their own child. Sad sorry stuff!
I have no problem living with my choices.
Well then what are you complaining about and grieving over. Everybody else in your family has a problem with your choices and priorities. So do I. But that's okay, so long as you're cool with it, so am I. But I don't believe you. I think you're in denial big time, and looking for people to support you in denial. Soory luv, no can do!
What I have difficulty with, I guess, is accepting the way my sister went for my juglar immediately, before I even knew about this.
I'm with Sis. She's the hero in the story as far as I'm concerned. She's having very healthy normal protective reactions about her neice. She's repulsed, shocked, horrified, disgusted with you, and so am I. Give her time to get used to the idea that her sister continues to stay married to this sicko creep who molested her neice. A millenium or 2 should do it.
Huh! HUH! Your privacy. Huh! You don't own that child. This has nothing to do with your privacy. It's about a child who has been molested, you fool. By your husband. If he molested your friends child would you be so blase? Would you be angered if the friend told the world? Your sister has every right to vent at the injury inflicted on her family. yes, that's right, it's her family too that this happened too. And all you seem to be saying is that she owes you greater loyalty than your daughter. I'm glad your kids have someone who recognises danger and sickness and cruelty. You don't. And I'm feeling mad and like being insulting here, so can I say, in the nicest possible way, you don't sound all that smart to me. Why? Because you can't even tell the difference between a child molester and decent caring human-being. Your child is damaged severely and seriously as a result of that creep. And N behaviour will be the least of her problems because of that creep who you sleep with every night. He should be in a jail, not in her house, in bed with her mother. YUK! SICK! Makes me question once again the role of 'Mother'???
tand give me time to digest this terrible news. I wanted her to respect my right to make decisions. I never would have dreamed that she would add lies to the story and try to totally destroy -my - friendships, my- reputation, my support systems, and totally isolate me.
hey how about giving her some of this wonderful understanding you have for that so and so husband of yours.
What she did hurt me more than what my husband did.
What the hell are you talking about? Can you hear yourself?
She is my blood. I expected her to try to help my family, not destroy it.
No he did this love, not her. More denial. And you choosing to stay with him is insane. Are you a love-addict? Must be something like that. Where is your dignity?
I didn't want to believe she is like my father but now I have seen her at her peak. I can't deny it any longer. I do forgive her too because she is sick and only human. I am not angry with her but I do not accept her behaviour either. The difference lies in the fact that she does not admit to doing anything wrong and shows no sorrow. Even when I told her how much she was hurting me and making things worse, she used words to stab me and grind the knife in deeper. I lost my baby sister at that moment. I don't blame my husband for my sister's behaviour. Those were her choices.
If I was your sister I'd be just as angry as she is. Probably worse. She's reacting to nightmare stuff. You're passively accepting it, like a victim. Playing the victim. You are de-sensitised to normal maternal feelings to protect ones young. You need deep therapy.
I have always hoped that things will work out in my family. I still think they will but it will take a long time. It would be a lot easier to help my children heal if my sister were not feeding them constant hate. Telling both my kids that they "should hate" my husband and "hate" me. Both kids have told me that she frequently tells them this. Who has the right to instill such hate in children?? Against their parent. To me, this too is monstrous, disgusting and abhorrent behaviour. My sister was narcissistic to begin with but now she has the amunision to justify her self-given-superiority and she is using it to cause as much ruin as possible.
So is your behaviour, monstous and abhorrent. And not without a smattering of N, self-absorbed selfish yourself. So if kids are inheriting, look no further.
My kids have also inherited these N traits. I feel guilty for passing them on. I am honest and I try not to judge harshly. It is so painful for me to watch my children turn into such opposite people. It hurts me to know that my efforts to try to teach them to be kind, good, generous, considerate, loving individuals have been useless. I feel very sad to think of the relationships they will have with others if they continue developing in this manner. And what my sister is doing to encourage them to be like her will further disintegrate my relationship with them.
Blaah blaah blaah. I think you've single handedly disintegrated your relationship with them by staying with him YUK!!!! Good onya sis. Keep them away from this sicko household, please. At least till mum has the good sense to get rid of this jerk who seriously infected damaged her family, and gets some serious therapy.
I feel totally frustrated and very sad due to all of the losses I have endured. Think of losing your trust in your spouse, your relationships as they were with your children, and most of your friends, all in a very short time. It is a horrible story, as you say.
I am still here and I still have the same attitude I have always had, since I was a small child and that is:
"I am not going to let these idiots drive me bananas".
"I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I" "I"
So far, it's working. I just want to do as you say and get further past it. The hurt inside keeps rising up. The grief is hard to imagine.
[/quote] Yes, that's right, get further past it, furthr into denial. That'll do it!
You can't even imagine how your poor daughter feels can you? Otherwise you would have a completely different focus and content in your posts. It's so obvious you don't understand the first thing about the effects of sexual abuse on the victim. I wonder if you even want to understand. Your imaginings are about you and your grief and your loss. What about your children's losses. They're far greater than yours. But I get the feeling yours are more important to you. And as far as thinking rather reacting. Bravo! 3 cheers. Yes, please be a pro at work and think. I thikn that's what you get paid to do, so no brownie points there. But with your family, how about showing some feeling and love. Seems old creepo gets all of that too.
I'm outta here. Going to talk to someone who is into serious positive change. Very sad sorry sick stuff when a kids mum justifies this jerk and his situation at the expense of her own children. If their primary care-giver lets them down, who have they got. In this situation, they have an aunty who cares. Thank Goodness. I think you hate her for doing what (deep down) you know you should be doing. Calling a spade a spade and kicking his filthy little child molesting butt out. How can your kids ever relate to you again whilever you stay with him. Get real. They're not hooked on him like you are.
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Somebody, I’m not angry, not angry at all. I’m sad. You’re projecting your anger.
You can’t necessarily heal today’s adult, but you can easily stop the abuse being perpetuated on today’s children. Today’s abused children are tomorrow’s abusers. The cycle stops first with the children. Protecting the children is top priority.
I pointed you to another board because it’s clear you’re not welcome here. Why? Because we don’t agree that your sister is the problem. We don’t think your problem belongs here. This may be incorrect; you may have an N problem. But this is not at the root of your problems right now. Get help. Go to that board, go on! Go! Come back when you are able to conduct yourself with empathy for people here, people who have suffered greatly from sexual and emotional abuse. Until you can really empathise, and not simply use the word ‘empathy’, you do not belong here. Sorry. And I disliked the way you patronised MM back there. I felt indignant on her behalf.
No, I’m still reading and that’s not enough from me:
I am now completely sure that I must be dishonest and keep all of these awful secrets and hold whatever pain I have inside or, risk another and repeated attack by ignorant, discourteous, angry, unwilling to empathize persons who "think" they know what they would do in such a situation.
This is childish, petulant, poor-me bollocks. It’s also crazy-making illogic. Hey, thanks for giving me an opportunity to recognise it! I’m not angry Somebody, I’m revolted. Go away. You’ve had my opinion, I’m not going to feed you any more. Just fuck off.
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Somebody,
You may have already decided to stop reading here at this board, but I felt like I needed to respond in any case. I also feel a similar a reaction to your story about your situation that others have expressed. It is hard for me to understand how you could take your husband back into your house. Your child has been hurt and she is looking to you for your guidance and love. You made a mistake by choosing this man in your life even if you did not perpetrate the act. You need to take the time, most likely a long time, to be consistently on your child's side. Your child will OF COURSE rebel against you. How can she know she can trust you. YOU need to make this about HER! It seems to me that you are mostly interested in how your H treats you.
It is always commendable to work on forgiveness...I think that is what we are all really trying to do here at this board. But...forgiveness does not mean allowing yourself or others to be in a situation where they can be hurt again. We can forgive a murderer...but heck he is staying in prison as far as I'm concerned. Is it possible that he may be changed and never do it again. Yes it is possible...but I still believe he is better off in prison.
And that brings to mind the idea that you aren't necessarily helping H either by letting him off the hook so easily. Where is his opportunity to learn? Are you sure he is always telling you the truth? Is there any other indications of him being untruthful? He did lie to you for many years by not admitting about this sexual encounter with your child. What's up with that? I believe that people often need a reason to change their deviant behavior and you are offering him no reason. He can just lie to you anytime he wants and still have your support, love and well a "cover" in case he feels like doing it again to another child. I would be interested to know what he does for his job.
Somebody, I know you have been hurt...and I feel bad for you as a little girl going through horrible stuff. I feel bad for you that you became an adult without the ability to discern who is loving and who isn't. It can be very confusing and scary. Please let yourself trust some people...a good therapist is a start. Also, please take some time to read what some of these people have written on this board. Look at Mighty Mouse, Portia, Les and Bunny's posts. Please see that they are caring people and very self-aware. And please take their opinions to heart. At some point you must see that not everyone else is wrong.
Good Luck and I hope you find some relief from your pain.
Learning
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I don't believe I showed any anger toward you. I am being straight with you and I am not angry.
You are criticizing us because we naturally became focused on your husband rather than your sister. This is part of the denial that we will focus on your sister, rather than on your husband.
Anger doesn't "turn into hate" -- that simply isn't the case. Anger and hate are two very different things.
The vast majority of us are not married to someone who is molesting children. You can't appeal to people with this argument, it isn't convincing.
You want to talk about your sister but we can't go there because of your husband. It's unrealistic to expect us to accept that your husband is not the problem here, but your sister is. The entire family is the problem and I hope you will find the appropriate venue to get help with it.
bunny
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What a murky swamp this is. Maybe everyone has run away from this post. I considered taking a long break myself.
But Somebody raises some points. If I read Somebody correctly, it sounds like pedophiles can be helped, maybe cured. Really? I simply don't know. But from what I've read it is one of the most intractable disorders. We really do need to 'understand' as Somebody says the nature of the problem -all aspects and expressions of it.
Somebody says that punishing them is futile. You don't mean all offenders in this category do you? What about more serious offenses? It sounds like you've done some work in this area. I pose these questions in the spirit of honest inquiry - not to attack, but to understand as you say. If no punishment, then how about some serious long term behaviour modification program - extensive negative reinforcement for deviant behaviour that is mandatory. In Canada, even childmolester/ killers can refuse treatment in prison and be out on the street again. We DO not understand the problem and take it seriously enough up here. 'Understanding' only goes so far and with hard core psychopaths my understanding is that nothing works and yet in Canada 2 notorious child molester/killers are due to be released shortly.
To be clear I am not saying your husband is in this category but we can't talk about this problem without looking at the full spectrum. Recently in Canada a computer software developer got charged up after viewing his child porn collection went out grabbed, sexually assualted and killed a 10year old girl. The court made an effort to understand his behaviour and he cooperated by saying that there was a direct link between his viewing and behaviour. I don't mean to be off at a tangent here but child porn is everywhere now and there should be enormous prison terms for it - "understanding" the crime can take place inside the prison.
Somebody - I can't imagine you are still here, but just in case - do you really want to spend a life "monitoring" your husband. Clearly you think it is necessary, so it wasn't necessarily a one time thing. It sounds like there was some build up to the 'sexual event/proposal, whatever it was.
I also wonder what you want most, Somebody? Is your daughter comfortable having contact with you and your husband now? I think you said that you would never let him move back until she was comfortable.
Les
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I haven't been sexually abused. But I know people who have. And putting gay people into the same category as a sex offender is really off the charts. What a bunch of psychobabble you spew. Sheesh. And you can't distinguish hurt from legitimate anger.
I hope you get a reality check sometime soon.
MM
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Wow, Guest.
You really made a lot of the points I was thinking about. Thank you. It seems this woman wanted to blame everyone but the dog for her situation.
And I guess if I ever check into her workplace and need CPR, I had better not check in as Mighty Mouse lol....!!
MM
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Sorry Somebody,
The science of this problem is not developing fast enough. It's not keeping up with the problem and the problem is growing because of the ignorance of people in general.
My BS meter went way up with your last post (1st and 2nd too).
If you're so interested in child molestation, why don't you go into the "science" full time and kick H to the curb. I think the problem is growing because of the ignorance of people like you who tolerate it and are more than willing to trade their kids in for the perp. There are a bevy of women so desperate and sick that they are willing to do this.
I don't think your sister is a N. You sound like one to me. Blaming is a key
component of Nism. Really how can your kids trust you? You give them 2 duds as dads and their Mom acts like a frisbee, gee why would they be in trouble and be rebelling? I just can't fathom it.
Oh, yeah. I forgot. HE is a nice sexual predator.......yeah. Lady, you make this man sick. We on this board didn't fall for your BS and so we are the ones with a problem? When you get rid of the bum and quit rationalizing his problem and your problem, maybe you'll be welcome back. Then again, maybe not. And I agree with Portia, I didn't like your patronizing of MM and all of us for that matter.
Nassim
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[/url]http://mtoomey.com/theshamed.html
I hope this will add a link, I have not done this before.
You've made extreme and incorrect assumptions.
You've twisted my words to suit.
You've missed some key information by not reading clearly and misinterpreting.
All errors we all sometimes make because none of us are perfect.
I am sorry to have upset you. I had no intention of that whatsoever and I will leave you with this:
Being abused does not negate everyone else's feelings.
We all need our feelings acknowledged and we all need encouragement.
I encouraged my children and focussed on them and made them my priority (and I continue to do so-but I haven't included that information and I am sorry for that). Our relationships are very much better now that all our "professional help" was dispersed with and we simply began to communicate with eachother, without interference. I love my children more than life itself and I would die for them.
I protected them by sending my husband away and by seeking help and therapy and whatever guidance I could for them and with them. I taught them correctly and that is why my child "told" about this past crime, when my younger child started to near the age the older child was, when this originally happened, years ago. I tell them and have always told them daily how much I love them and encouraged all that is good about them and within them. But is isn't enough.
There are a few things I will not do for them or anyone else:
I will not cast judgement on a person who begs for forgiveness and who takes responsibility for their behaviour and takes steps to correct it.
I will not go against all I have taught them and allow hate into my home or my life, nor will I ever encourage them that it is an ok thing to carry around, or impose on anyone else.
And I will never, to my dying day, accept that it is alright to twist the truth, add lies to it, and pass it on to others as fact.
You assume so much but I haven't posted what I feel. Not much of it anyway. My sister had a right to vent her feelings but no right to do so to destroy me before I was even told about this. That's when she called my first friend and an ex-family member. This was to put shame on my shoulders and degrade me. That was cruel and destructive. It was viscious and N-ish. Her feelings ARE more important than anyone else's. She does not show the protective auntie qualities you are so sure she was demonstrating any more toward my kids. She does think they "owe" her and they "should baby sit" for her and she ridicules and tries to degrade them, if they do not meet her demands. And she invades their privacy too. There is a very long list of stuff about her that fits into the N catagory.
I did my very best to help my kids through this, I tried to help my sister and understand her feelings and behaviour, and I have been through hell trying to forgive my husband, and trying to gain some kind of understanding into his "sick" and beguiling behaviour. It is not something I would have ever dreamed of doing nor is it something most other people usually do. But in these circumstances, of which you do not have all the facts, I made my decision. It was not easy to stomach and I appreciate that it is very hard for you to accept or understand and that it upsets you.
I agree with Les that some kind of real "treatment" is necessary to correct this behaviour. There is none BECAUSE people are free to refuse it and because of that, our system allows them to go on behaving in this way.
And yes, my husband is classified as a dangerous sexual preditor because there is only one catagory of classification in this country, and by slapping my child on the butt he IS placed in the same bucket with those who have perpetrated horrific deeds upon children, because there is only one bucket-both are considered the same thing- sexual assault. And I was not comparing gay people to molesters, I was comparing the way our society treats people, and what we believe to be an acceptable way of dealing with those we don't understand. Prior to that it was people of race and before that, way back, we beheaded anyone who was left-handed, so there is progress, but it certainly is taking awhile.
Please try to get ahold of your emotions and just hear me. I don't mean to patronize and I am sorry if I am coming across that way.
1 in 4 females have been assaulted in this way. So no matter where I go, I will be dealing with those who have experienced this. That means 1 in 4 people on message boards and 1 in 4 therapists.
I'm sorry for that and I am appalled at those numbers. I have done my best to learn about the effect this has on victims. I obviously have more to learn but at least I'm trying.
You need to learn that I am a victim too. This was my child that was violated and the most basic trust I had for my husband. I made sure my children were made immediately safe and it took all of my stength to contain my rage and utter despair and try not to panic.
We, as mothers are trying to protect our children but it is not working. This is happening.
And when it happens, the mothers are getting the blame. The criminals are refusing treatment and walking away. And the victims, are not healing because our "therapists" encourage all of us to wallow in misery.
1 in 10 men have done this or are doing it. 1 in 10. I can't get these numbers out of my head. I'm not the only one who's married to these men, I'm just one who is aware of it.
How do I know my husband is telling me the truth? How do you know yours is?
What if this were your son who did this to your child? These are terrifying questions to answer.
This subject evokes such distress in all of us. It is "sick" behaviour and I don't know if the worst offenders can be "cured". I doubt that very much. People must be punished for their behaviour but I am saying that by the time their behaviour is detected, it is too late for the victim.
I want to protect children from this. I've seen such horrors because of it. All I know is there has to be a better way of stopping it from happening to begin with, and that must come from understanding it.
We'll never understand what we don't acknowledge and we are not being realistic by thinking that we can protect our kids. We can't. It's going on. 1 in 4.
I will f off now.
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Being abused does not negate everyone else's feelings.
What does this mean?
We all need our feelings acknowledged and we all need encouragement.
Encouragement to do what, in your case?
I love my children more than life itself and I would die for them.
No one is asking you to die. They are asking you to think about the implications of choosing your H over them. It looks like you've done this, even though you dispute it.
There are a few things I will not do for them or anyone else:
I will not cast judgement on a person who begs for forgiveness and who takes responsibility for their behaviour and takes steps to correct it.
You don't have to cast judgment on him. But you may have to choose between him and them.
I will not go against all I have taught them and allow hate into my home or my life, nor will I ever encourage them that it is an ok thing to carry around, or impose on anyone else.
You don't have to hate him. But you may have to choose between him and your children.
And I was not comparing gay people to molesters, I was comparing the way our society treats people, and what we believe to be an acceptable way of dealing with those we don't understand. Prior to that it was people of race and before that, way back, we beheaded anyone who was left-handed, so there is progress, but it certainly is taking awhile
.
Are you saying that society should *progress* to the point where we aren't prejudiced against child molesters?
1 in 4 females have been assaulted in this way. So no matter where I go, I will be dealing with those who have experienced this. That means 1 in 4 people on message boards and 1 in 4 therapists.
Statistics are irrelevant and often wrong. They won't help your situation or change anything about it.
You need to learn that I am a victim too. This was my child that was violated and the most basic trust I had for my husband. I made sure my children were made immediately safe and it took all of my stength to contain my rage and utter despair and try not to panic.
We, as mothers are trying to protect our children but it is not working. This is happening.
And when it happens, the mothers are getting the blame. The criminals are refusing treatment and walking away. And the victims, are not healing because our "therapists" encourage all of us to wallow in misery.
Another specious argument. You aren't a victim since you remain willingly with the perpetrator. You aren't a "mother getting the blame" since you willingly remain with the perpetrator. You seem to take very little responsibility for your choices.
How do I know my husband is telling me the truth? How do you know yours is?
This is quite a stretch. I don't think most of us secretly have lying, child molester husbands. This is a huge rationalization. Lacks credibility.
I maintain that you are in a lot of denial.
bunny
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Somebody,
I've grown tired of your novellas. You don't seem to realize that we don't need every nitpicky detail to make some assessments. The fact of the matter is...you are living with a sexual predator. He didn't serve time in jail for nothing.
The other fact is...you have no place on this board. Please leave us. You are sticking to your convoluted position and seem to want to rail at someone for the situation you find yourself in. You need to look only to yourself for blame in this matter.
MM
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You give them 2 duds as dads and their Mom acts like a frisbee, gee why would they be in trouble and be rebelling? I just can't fathom it.
It's my opinion in reading all of this that you (somebody) need to get rid of this H or yours and never get married again. You obviously aren't able to pick good men. Maybe that's because of your past or because you still seem to be in deep, deep denial.
You can't really make anything constructive happen with your kids until you admit that you've failed them miserably in giving them bad dads and by not being really circumspect about things after the fact of realizing you are with a molestor (a pat on the fanny - please!!). That right there tells me you are not of this planet in terms of reality.
I don't think anybody here is going to be convinced that we should make the leap to understanding this criminal. Even guys in prison detest child sexual molestors. They are the lowest of the low for even these guys.
I have heard on several different venues that this urge to molest children or anyone is intractible as Les stated. If you were a clinician studying this phenomenon instead of a spouse (choice) here, there would be a very different discussion. You simply are not credible imo. A good mother would get rid of the dude. Your encouragement is okay but lacks empathy for the kids since you are still with this creep. And he is a creep. You sound like one of those women that get involved with murderers in prison and say "well, he's never been anything but nice to ME". This is a sad sorry state of affairs and you are the common thread. Please get some real intervention and quit wasting our time here.
Sonia
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Somebody (or Nobody),
Filth likes to find it's own level. You are now on par with a sex offender. Bravo!.
Now:
The Board has Spoken:
"YOU are the weakest link"!!!!!!!
-
Look Somebody,
Seems to me you are enjoying this way too much. What...did the kids and sis get sick of arguing with you? So you decided to stir up some other folks? Looking for a little supply any way you can take it?
Take the advice and move on. Nobody here needs this grief.
-
Hey, anybody (no not you Somebody :evil: ), just a few thoughts I had about Somebody and her situation. I won't bother responding to Somebody's BS again. I don't 'FEEL' there's any point.
But I noticed the kids spoke to her sis, not her. Why is that not suprising? :D She's an impenetrable wall of cold L/A steel. Shielded by her own BS. I get the picture that Somebody is a love-addict and a cold controlling deaf parent, absorbed and caught up in her own needs and desires. The kids. Ah! The poor kids.
It's no wonder the kids told aunty and not their own mother. I suspect that Aunty listens. And I think Somebody can't stand that. Bet Aunty has watched Somebody neglect her kids for years, but Aunty has always been there. The loving sis. Well so Somebody said, anyway.
But this was the last straw for Aunty. Aunty blew a gasket. Good onya Aunty. I'm not gonna tell Aunty there were better ways to go about it. She's human and from what I gather was very effective.
Aunty's protective maternal instincts rose to the fore. She's not gonna stand by and and observe anymore. She's gone in, boots and all, police, family friends. hahahahahahaahahahahah ONYA Aunty, for kickin' slimy child molester butt. . :D More power to her.
Those bullshit stats Somebody presented would be mightily lowered if there were more Aunties like her around. Hip Hip Hooray. And Aunty is validating the kids feelings of hatred. Hooray! Thank goodness somebody is! That must drive Somebody insane.
Funny how much love and forgiveness Somebody is able to provide to this pervo guy who's shagging her, but can't find any for the woman who is providing much needed emotional support to Somebody's kids. Very curious. NOT!
Maybe Aunty is emotional. Maybe she isn't. I'd be more extreme than Aunty. But hey, I didn't read she's a mental health worker. She's been confronted with a horrible, dreadful family situation and she's doing what she feels is best with whatever her resources and abilities and skills are.
And I'm glad Aunty was responsible, and old El-creepo didn't end up getting away with it. Well he did get away with it. But he didn't get away with not being found out. He's caused so so much harm. But he's getting his.
Somebody said something like this, "He wouldn't do it again. He knows it's not worth. And he knows how lucky he is that I stayed with him. Another woman might have divorced him." Bucket please, barf barf. Can anyone believe that these kids mother said that. Read carefully. He knows it's not worth it.
Yeah, another caring feeling heartful woman-mother.
WTF! What a cold callous heartless disinterested frozen brain thing to say. I didn't hear, he knows it's evil. HUH!
How about, "He's not sorry he did it, he's just sorry he got found out." That's how I interpret her words. It's not worth what happens when you get found out, is it. hahahahahahaah what a joke.
Yeah, let Somebody live on with old child-molester in lala- land. He's a marked man. So's she now for that matter. This'll stick like the shit it is. And she thinks he's lucky cause she didn't divorce him. How arrogant!!!!!!
Cause she didn't do what was right and good for her kids. She's so great, so fantastic and he's so lucky to have her stand by him.
Hey I always thought the natural instinct was to move away when you smell a turd. Not towards it, and embrace it. Doesn't somebody know if you hug turd you end up smelling like turd. Some people. :roll:
"He's so lucky to have me standing by him and he knows it" :shock: Rewind - Shame it didn't read, "My kids know they are so lucky to have me standing by them. I'm glad they know it."
Shame they'll never know that type of love from mother, but mother can't give the guy up. Not even for the best reason in the world. She said she'd die for her kids. Heard it all before. Cahnces of her having to do that are about 1/10,000,000. So big empty comment there. She just can't live for them and do the right thing by herself and them and get rid of the problem.
Poor pathetic Somebody, travelling cyber-world looking for support, because nobody in her real world can understand her stupidity and foolishness.
People are sickened in her real world by her attitude and choices.
Well :D we're real people here too you know. So guess what?
We're sickened too. Isn't that good. :D
I don't think Somebody really sees that what happened was so bad. She's trivialised it. I think that what bothers Somebody is that her pride is wounded because everybody knows now what a totally selfish, love-addicted rotten mum she is.
Somebody can't see the truth. She's come here looking to off-load her shit. But she's not interested in anyone's opinions if they don't agree with hers. So we are all supposed to have no idea, and just hate sis and the kids and love her and her shaggy sicko pervo H. Oh, sorry folks, no can do.
hey, you wanna know what I think? I think the kids knew if they told Mommy Dearest, she would put a lid on it somehow. Bully, bulldoze, taalk down/over. Look at her posts here. Imagine kids having to wade throughand make sense of that lot. No, she'd find a way to get them to 'Hush it up' . You know, I think she'd have successfully convinced them that there were her 'Privacy' issues!
I gotta give it to those kids. 3 cheers. They certainly blew the roof off that little shithouse. Good on ya' kids for taking it to someone who would do something about it.
And did I read in her latest diatribe that her relationship with her kids was never better, or was I dreamin'. hahahahahahahah Well then, what was all that other bullshit about? Ever seen a snake? Slithering all over the place. Somewhat resembles Somebody's ever changing facts. Oh well :roll: I guess all types come to his board.
Hey, I spewed at Somebody telling me that 'facts' stats about child abuse. Yeah, most (not all) child abuse wouldn't occur if parents were more responsible, and doing their job properly, and vetting who their children are with.
Hey, I like how they had a good relationship and sex life till Aunty blew the lid off their little love-nest, and the world found out.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha
Didn't worry him obviously up till then, her not knowing, I mean.
Oh well, at least the kids know he stinks, and are free to thnik and say so. At least she wasn't able to silence them. Once again. Good onya kids for going to a listening person.
I wonder what the kids will say later when they find a forum like this to vent and try to work through the guilt and emotions and confusion and loss .
Might go something like this,
My step-father tried to have sex with me/my sister/brother and I told my aunt. I couldn't tell mum. I knew she wouldn't listen. Aunty went ballistic , got police involved. He went to court, was labelled a sexual predator. But mother stayed with him, and loves him, and has forgiven him and can't understand why we all hate him, and her, for staying with that sicko creep. I had to move out, he/they made me that sick.
They're still together and I can't understand why she chose to stay with him. She chose him over us.
My problem is this. I always feel like I don't count. I feel like worthless mud. I don't look after myself properly and I don't care about myself. Why? I guess it's because of how my mother loved a revolting child-molester more than me/us. She made me feel like a child molester was better to love and care for than her own child.
The lowest form of human life was suddenly more worthy, more imprtant than me. Than me, her child. I find I do battle with those feelings of inferiority everday. I am weighed down with the thought "I'm not even as good or lovable as a child molester." I'm trying to heal and get over the shocking reality that my mother gave him the love and priority and support that was meant for and needed by me/us.
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Guest,
You rock. I wish I had said half of what you just did.
MM
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Hey P, I forgot to sign off again, keep forgetting to be polite and sign off on this thread. Wonder why :D
So for my sign off I feel like quoting the most intelligent, succinct, appropriate, on-target, straight to guts of the matter comment I read and liked here to date, ( besides everybody elses') hahahahahahahaha, (and also, then it's your fault :wink: .) hahahahahahahahah.
Signed
Fuck Off Somebody.
-
:D Ha ha ha ha ha! Hic cough cough spit :P ha ha ha ha! I was wondering last night how to inject a bit of humour into this thread coz, boy, it sure needed it. Ha ha ha! You just made me !!guffaw!! out loud whoops, ha ha :D bonk, :shock: head on floor again.
and also, then it's your fault
That’s one thing I really really really don’t mind. :D I take full responsibility. :D I’m sooooo glad you came over for a look-see.
I'm trying to heal and get over the shocking reality that my mother gave him the love and priority and support that was meant for and needed by me
:shock: Shocking :!: Reality. Great novel title.
And just one (just one!) quote from the filth-monger itself:
You need to learn that I am a victim too.
‘You need to learn’: dontcha just lurrrve that N-speak blame-everybody-but-themselves guilt-trip accusatory nonsense. Ha ha ha! We need to learn! :o I’ll just go and put my big ol’ dunce’s hat on and stand in the corner m’am. With the other 90% of the world’s population. Whoof it’s a little crowded in this ‘we need to learn’ corner of the world. Cosy though.
Thanks for the guffaw Gutsy, Gusty-breath-of-fresh-air Guest. I’m off to Q’s Juke Joint (coz I love the name) to listen to a few mellow/rocking sounds before schmoozing over to ramble. 8) Big *breath out* P Ha ha ha! Yeah MM ROCKIN' :D
-
Let's Boogie,
Had to come back and therpise. :D
:D Ha ha ha ha ha! Hic cough cough spit :P ha ha ha ha! I was wondering last night how to inject a bit of humour into this thread coz, boy, it sure needed it. Ha ha ha! You just made me !!guffaw!! out loud whoops, ha ha :D bonk, :shock: head on floor again.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahah, I'm so la-de-da, a part of me, even in spit hahahahah (I mean) spite of my own M and childhood. Still find it a teeny weeny weeny teeny bit hard to believe anyone like Somebody really is for real. :?
I'm still hoping and suspecting this was an urban myth. A try-on to see how we'd react. But then I remember all the sick love-addicted Rosemary West types I've read about over the years and know they're out there.
Hey, I think I might start calling Somebody, Rosemary, if I bother to come back to her pig-swill again. Hey, P, is that how you spell pig-swill?
:D Why don't we tell Somebody what we really think fo her. :D
har har har har (seal flapping flippers together gaily waiting to be thrown another fish by Somebody)
And just one (just one!) quote from the filth-monger itself:
You need to learn that I am a victim too.
‘You need to learn’: dontcha just lurrrve that N-speak blame-everybody-but-themselves guilt-trip accusatory nonsense. Ha ha ha! We need to learn! :o I’ll just go and put my big ol’ dunce’s hat on and stand in the corner m’am. With the other 90% of the world’s population. Whoof it’s a little crowded in this ‘we need to learn’ corner of the world. Cosy though.
Yeah, and hey MM, I bet the dog had some wicked part to play in it too.
Yeah well Rosemary, me dunce too, happily. I can learn more off the back of a pack of chewy than anything you could teach me 'lovo'. That's what they call love-addicts in my neck of the woods. A lovo.
But seeing as we're into telling each other what we need to learn, and you've had your say Rosemary, now it's my turn. :D
You need to learn that you need serious therapy, note - with a female therapist.
You need to learn to tell and recognise the truth.
You need to learn that you life-pattern-cop-out of your responsibilities by playing the victim. Handy trick if you can sustain it.
You need to learn that you are a stupid irresponsible selfish bitch.
You need to learn that if you're a victim of anything, it's your own stupidity and selfishness and lust
You need to learn that it wasn't your sister's job to protect your kids.
Youo need to learn that someone had to boot his sicko arse out of those children's lives.
You need to learn that by attaching yourself to him, it OBVIOUSLY :wink: means you had to go too! :D REALITY DEAR!!! :D REALITY!!
You need to learn that you're not God, and you can't monitor jack-shit about what that guy gets up to. Not unless you're attached to him at the hip 24/7. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE, LOVO! :D
You need to learn that he could be out sniffing little girls bicycle seats as I type. Oh how revolting of me to say that. How crass and gross. hahahah Off of me wasn't it? hahahahahaha On a scale, compared to what you're doing still supporting and embracing him, it doesn't even rate a score.
You need to learn that you can't try to change and blame people for reacting to filth. Especially his type.
You need to learn that healthy, and hey! :D , even a whole bunch of unhealthy people, just like me :D , don't tolerate child-molesters at all. Zero tolerance is it.
You need to learn that even according to your bullshit stats 90 out a 100 men would never make such an offer in the first place. Most would take themselves outside and give themselves a good hard slap in the head if they even thought such a thought. Most men are just as sickened to the pit of their stomach by child-molesters as I am.
You need to learn that you are living with a guy who has been recognised by the authorities as a major problem and you're rejecting every truth about him, no matter where it comes from. You're deaf and cold.
You need to learn that you're delusional.
You need to learn that you can't fix anyone but yourself.
You need to learn that you're not a 'mother', in the true sense, or the intended meaning of the word.
Aaah phhht, wasting good cyber space but oh well, I feel good thinking this through.
Oh yes,
You need to learn that more children aren't ever molested than are.
Why is that?
Because the majority (who determine what is healthy and acceptable) aren't like you 2, Rosemary and old el-pervo el-creepo el-child molester.
Hey, some good news. Your child, now, besides your sister, is also the hero in the story to me. I'm a bit slow, but it dawned on me, and then :idea: :!: lightning bolt.
Your child said 'NO!' What a wonderful thing. What courage and resistance.
Hey P, no bullshit :D , you wanna know what I did? Of course you do, you little cutey. Coochie coochie!! :D Tickling those little chubby cheeks.
I lit a candle last night for Rosemary's child. Oh no, Rosemary's baby. :shock: Oh well. Waste of time maybe. :roll: Lighting a candle for the child of a revolting cyber-stranger who might just be a cyber nutter making up stories to post and be the centre of attention. Positive or negative attention, doesn't matter. :roll:
Oh well, anyway, :D just in case the child does exist, I did anyway. I thought warm, loving, proud, healthy thoughts about that child, and congratulated the child for making the right choice. And I hoped that somehow it might send the child/ children some gooooood vibes and encouragment. I hoped and asked that the right people would come along as support and guidance for the future. And I asked for a few mates for that single solitary L/A brain cell free-redicalling around in old Rosemary's head. :roll: Okay, time for your medication now, Guest dear!! :D
Oh well, dreamin' again, but hey, I'm a latitudinarian, we're like that! :D
Back to Rosemary! :evil:
Where is your dignity, and appreciation, and dare I say pride in your child's healthy response to that prick?
Can you stop being in-love with el-jerko pervert child-molester for just 1 minute and think about that?
Look how you are rewarding your child/children for doing the right thing. :evil:
You've alienated and turned away from your child, and embraced that offensive turd who made the offer instead. :shock: It didn't happen, not because of el-turdo. But because of your child. Otherwise he'd have bonked your kids little butt to kingdom come.
What a magnificent way you are rewarding your child for being responsible and doing the right thing. You truly and magnificently epitomise the word 'pathetic'. Hey, Rosemary, I suspect you were glad to get the kids out of the house, so you and creepo could be alone and wallow in each other. Maybe you were jealous of her? AAAh? Phht. Who cares. I'm done. :roll:
But, No! Wait, there's more! :D
Hey, about something else Rosemary said, one other thing :?:
If he made an offer and nothing happened, then what the hell did he get convicted for :?: :?: :?: Me thinks I smell a lying rat. :twisted: I think he bloody well did do something more than make an offer. I don't swallow the poor-victim-me-bullshit that there is only one classificiation. :D Yeah maybe for what he did. hahahahahaahahahah And he's been corrrectly classified. Thank goodness the justice system does work.
Thanks for the guffaw Gutsy, Gusty-breath-of-fresh-air Guest. I’m off to Q’s Juke Joint (coz I love the name) to listen to a few mellow/rocking sounds before schmoozing over to ramble. 8) Big *breath out* P Ha ha ha! Yeah MM ROCKIN' :D
hahahahah Yeah it sounds cosy, smoke-filled and friendly doesn't it? Q's Juke Joint. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) Yeah, and 'onya MM.
Signed
Fuck Off Rosemary
-
Seems to me that a lot of people have missed a great opportunity to learn and to grow.
If one says or does something that one does not agree with does that justify abuse?
Seems like that's all somebody got. and who are we to set ourselves up in judgment above someone else? surely that's G-d's job.
it is very likely that one who commits sexual abuse has also been sexually abused. same goes for all kinds of abuse. the abused becomes abuser.
Now everyone here has been abused in some way (verbally,physically,emotionally)
and we are fortunate in that we have managed to follow a path to break the cycle of abuse. a difficult thing to do. I certainly know that I have been verbally abusive in the past, it was my upbringing after all. I still make mistakes but that's being human.
the way you have castigated somebody on this thread I find incredible.
as I find the line between the abused and the abuser is all too thin at times - i repeat - the tendency for the abused to become the abuser.
I'm sure it has been very therapeutic to all group together and castigate someone, did you all feel good about yourselves as a result?
there's is simply no need to speak to anyone like that, imo.
but, nw will you say, I am simply condoning the abuse with what I am saying.
No I am simply saying that the comments on this thread,which exist because of Richard Grossman, bring the board and the field of psychology
into disrepute.
The field of psychology teaches us that we can change ourselves if we take the pain and face what we have done. It is all very well to do that in isolation but if someone else tries to do that and are condemned for it where does that leave us? if we speak up and know that we will be condemned for it? how will we heal? the behavour will not be addressed and will continue.
Surely psychology teaches us that condemning anyone gets us (as a sociey or the human race) nowhere.
It is through understanding and compassion that we can bring change.
but there you go, I am all too aware myself of any judgement I throw upon anyone else - as it all too often applies to me.
Making a black/white judgment call in the realm of human behavour is a difficult call, and is certainly beyone me.
Anyway, a very emotive thread to say the least, maybe some good will come of it, maybe not
-
Seems to me that a lot of people have missed a great opportunity to learn and to grow.
From what? Please I wish LTL wouldn't be so nebulous. Vague suggestions like this mean I don't know they're talking about, or suggesting I could learn and grow from. Very frustrating.
If one says or does something that one does not agree with does that justify abuse?
What abuse? From whom? LTL calls opinions and reactions from real people abuse. hahahahahah Reality and real emotions. Suppress at all costs. This is the voicelessness forum. I've been told to deny and suppress and be blind to my own thoughts and needs all my life. I ain't doin' it any more, not even to make LTL feel better.
Seems like that's all somebody got. and who are we to set ourselves up in judgment above someone else? surely that's G-d's job.
Oh no, not a half-baked kabbalist in the midst? Surely not! :shock: Hey, I think I have freedom of thought and speech on this thread, don't I? G-d gave me my mind. am I to beleive G-d wants me to keep silent. Is LTL the mouthpeiece of G-d. Oh no!!!
So if I can't say what I think, who am I? Do I have freedom of speech. Apparently not. :roll: Not according to LTL. hahahahah damn I didn't know I was supposed to only say what would make Rosemary feel good. she didn't even say that. Sorry LTL, didn't know I mustn't speak My own mind. Didn't know that now voicelessness rules here, yeah!!!
And hey, I agree LTL, to hell with the kids, yeah LTL. Didn' read you mention them once. I'm disgusted. Yeah, in your silence on this, your motto reads to me "To Hell With The Kids!"
Sad, didn't read you mention them or old el-creepo once. Just us, and how bad and deficient, and castigating we all are. hahahahaahah What Bullshit. I think I'll go and spank myself till it feels good. :D
it is very likely that one who commits sexual abuse has also been sexually abused. same goes for all kinds of abuse. the abused becomes abuser.
Not always lovo, not always. Better go and do your homework. Maybe the abuser is you here. Is that possible? Oh no, it's me. We're in a dance, I abuse you, then you'll abuse me. hahahah Kinky.
[quote]Now everyone here has been abused in some way (verbally,physically,emotionally)
Well if we weren't before you posted, we have been now. hahahahaha
and we are fortunate in that we have managed to follow a path to break the cycle of abuse. a difficult thing to do.
Certainly is with people like you around trying to get me to second guess myself.
I certainly know that I have been verbally abusive in the past, it was my upbringing after all. I still make mistakes but that's being human.
You still are love, but hey, I'll try to forgive your ignorance. :D But you still are, just in a very sneaky insidious way. Oh well, live and let live, that's my motto. Nice ta' meet ya'. :D NOT
the way you have castigated somebody on this thread I find incredible. as I find the line between the abused and the abuser is all too thin at times - i repeat - the tendency for the abused to become the abuser.
Yeah, well you would know LTL. I feel abused by you now, :oops: what are you gonna do to fix it? :D Cause you're telling me I have no right to speak my mind, and I'm second guessing myself, and I'm doing that even when I know damn well I do have aright to speak my mind. :x What to do? :oops: what to do? Speak my mind, and say what I feel, or shut-the fuck up, as LTL would like me to, to make LTL happy. I don't know? :D Oh yes I do, I just had a brain-wave. I'll keep talkin' and speakin' my mind. Go with my heart-brain and gut instincts.
I'm sure it has been very therapeutic to all group together and castigate someone, did you all feel good about yourselves as a result?
Speaking for myself, Yes, thanks for asking. :D Even though I have no interest in wasting my time speaking with you, and after I finish this reply I don't think I'll bother again.
there's is simply no need to speak to anyone like that, imo.
Like what? to speak the truth. what I really think?
but, nw will you say, I am simply condoning the abuse with what I am saying.
Oh, and now you can read minds can you? No! That wasn't what I was gonna say at all. I was thinking of saying something a long the lines of 'Look, there are pigs up there, flying in the sky!'
No I am simply saying that the comments on this thread,which exist because of Richard Grossman, bring the board and the field of psychology into disrepute.
hahahahahahahaha hic snort bonk, head just fell off , laughing too much. Hang on, hahahah trying to put head back on. Oh no, wrong way! :shock: Never seen my butt from that angle. :shock: Pretty flat and wide. Note to self - Need to do some butt exercises.
Are you for real? You mention G-d and RG in the same post as authorities. Sorry Richard, not bagging you out at all. And not trying to start a fight. I'll back off after this post. Promise. hahaha
And of course Richard, your name could have come first, but thought better say G-d first. hahahahahahahahah I know you'll understand.
But really LTL, are you blaming Grossman's board for bringing the field of psychology into disrepute? :shock: hahahaahahahahahah Hey, Dr G, did you know you were so influential? hey, it's worry, if the comments that I post here constitute the fullness of modern psychological advancement! SHIT, HELP! We're all in deep shit!
Oh I quiver in fear about G-d too. Sorry, wouldn't want to forget her. And hey! (Foot tapping emoticon) Why wasn't I told? :D I didn't know we were all paid up members of the APA. Hey, P, did you know you're a psychologist? :D Yeah, we're all psychologists. :D hahahahaha Cool! Damn, wish I had of known earlier. I'd a been charging. LTL just certified us all. Man, onya LTL! :D
The field of psychology teaches us that we can change ourselves if we take the pain and face what we have done.
That's good, then take this pain, from me to you, face what you've done to me, and take this pain. "Up your ask"! :D
It is all very well to do that in isolation but if someone else tries to do that and are condemned for it where does that leave us? if we speak up and know that we will be condemned for it? how will we heal? the behavour will not be addressed and will continue.
That's if you're trying to change someone's behaviour, LTL? That isn't what anyone here was doing. Oh well, now I'll just speak for myself. That's what you're trying to do to me, NOW! Oh addled one. Re-read and think if you've got the balls and the brains.
Surely psychology teaches us that condemning anyone gets us (as a sociey or the human race) nowhere.
So WTF are you doing in this post. hahahahahahahahahahhaha
It is through understanding and compassion that we can bring change.
So WTF aren't you showing compassion and understanding to me? oh great teacher of G-d's principles. hahahahahahahahahahahaah I need it too. hahahahaha
but there you go, I am all too aware myself of any judgement I throw upon anyone else - as it all too often applies to me.
Yep, hit the nail right on the head.
Making a black/white judgment call in the realm of human behavour is a difficult call, and is certainly beyone me.
Apparently not, you just did it.
And hey, is that still politically correct, isn't it supposed to be coloured and caucasian judgment call.
Anyway, a very emotive thread to say the least, maybe some good will come of it, maybe not
[/quote] Not if you've got anything to do with it, it won't you sssssssilly enabler.
Barf Barf. Bucket please. Wipe mouth. Now LTL, tell me about how you feel about the kids and sis, and what old slimy should do to help them out. I noticed you didn't mention them at all. I get the clear distinct feeling you don't care about them at all. Why is that? No, don't bother answering my questions, I won't be reading your reply. I just lied, I probably will. :D But I was trying to make a dramatic exit. hahaha Anyway, I still think if you had of felt anything, after your long winded bullshit here, I think you would have mentioned them, so forget I asked that.
Signed
Fuck off Rosemary
-
Hey, who here has been or has had close intimate contact with someone who was molested, or seriously propositioned as a child for sex, by an adult?
I have known many.
My best friend for years, Annie, became a heroin addict and a whore for years. Molested by her father her whole childhood. Her mother knew, heard H HEADING OFF TO DAUGHTERS BEDROOM and hid in the bedroom and said nothing. When she confronted her mother years later, her mother cried and said sorry. By this time Annie had nearly OD'd over 6 times, and had been a working whore to support her habit.
My friend of 25 years, Chris, molested by his older brother for years as a child. Became a heroin addict and a junkie wholesaler. Hey, at one time, decades ago he was a roadie for AC DC! He ended up forgiving his brother after he became a Christian. His brother was a famous, well-known stunt man. Chris resumed contact with him and because he was now a christian, he forgave him. His brother then went on and molested Chris's son. Chris is now a total mess. Great!
John, a gorgeous blond surfie guy with a heroin habit. He was a friend of my first H's. And a junkie too. His step-father had fondled his prick one day in the car on the way to the shop. He told his mum. Mum asked his step-dad if he'd done it. Step-dad denied it. John was put out to die (emotionally) as a trouble maker. Onya Mum! You're a champion.
Lynn, a school friend, molested repeatedly by her father, :evil: till she began to like it. Became the local 'bike' , until she got syphilis when she was pregnant. Oh okay, that's not too hard to handle. But who's kid was it? Dad's? :shock: She never knew. Alcoholic, last contact I had.
Phil, was adopted, then was molested by his adoptive mother's boyfriend. Sadly Phil died a few years ago of a drug overdose/poisoning. He left 2 little kids. The drug-overdose is still under police investigation. Very nasty business.
Kim, school friend, molested by her pre-high school brother. She married a guy who forced into swinging. Last I saw her she was living on anti-depressants, with a little kid depending on her.
Trish, best adult friend I had for years, was molested by her older brother, repeatedly. Forgotten memories, were eventually resurfaced. She was alienated from the family asa result, and turned lesbian and super promiscuous. I still worry about her.
Wilma, ah! Beautiful girl, all of say 11 or 12 then. Her older brother was forcing her to have sex, after school. Why? Because he could. Both parents worked and he was able too!. She attempted to commit suicide at 14 years of age. Failed attempt thankfully. I saw her much afterwards. She was a vegetable. Why is that? Don't know whatever happened to her.
Peter. Oh dear Peter. His father rooted him up the arse from when he was about 8 months old. Peter was a sweet tooth and chocoholic like I'd never seen. And with a 'Lolita Complex'. When he came to live with me, at about 30 years of age, he ran for miles every night to get the 'dirty thoughts' out of his head. He used to say to me, "My old man really fucked me good didn't he?"
Okay, I could go on but it's so depressing. There are more. Shall I continue? So many people I, one single solitary person has known intimately. :( It makes me so sad to think about them. Beautiful people, friends. People whose lives have been wrecked or seriously affected. Who've been the victim of some pervo sicko like Rosemary's husband.
Now, let's talk about child molesters and would be child molesters and their psychology. Or shall we talk about the psychology of the victims? I really don't care which.
Signed
Fuck Off Rosemary.
-
OK, so you tell me to fo and I take my time about it but I finally do that. Then, curiosity draws me back. Why am I not surprised to see so much spewing still going on?
You are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to voice it. You just don't make yourself look very good by doing so in a nasty and hateful manner. It is your choice and if you think it's the right thing to do, then okey dokey, but I'm telling you that there's a better way.
You have an opinion, but your opinion does not negate everyone else's opinion (or those who disagree with your opinion).
You are entitled to your feelings and you are very much entitled to express them and to try to release them in appropriate ways. But not in ways that cause harm to anyone else. If you can possibly try not to do that, it would be very beneficial to all. You are entitled to your feelings but your feelings do not negate everyone else's feelings.
You don't need all of the facts before coming to conclusions, goodie for you. You're just that much smarter than me, I guess.
You know the most morally correct thing to do here, without being in the situation, without empathizing (because you don't "want" to), and without knowing the circumstances, or the people invovled? More brownie points for ya (is this good enough mirroring for you, or should I try harder).
You choose only to show compassion to the children, so be it. What I think about that is that this problem will continue to grow across our world if that is all most people are willing to do, and it issss alll most people are willing to do. That is not just my opinion (but I am probably the only person on this thread who has that opinion, which I too am entitled to express, and my hope is that you will consider it). I do totally and utterly understand where you are coming from because I used to think exactly the same way. Now, I would like people who are inclinded to molest to have some way to stop, before they choose to act, and this attitude is what I would like to see the general population embrace.
Ofcourse, you have already told me it's your road or the high road.
But here I am back like a pain in the butt that just won't go away (and I must say, the last poster really made me giggle about the butt excercises! You have an amazing sence of humour! I love it!).
I learned that I have a voice and how to use it as gently as possible to express myself clearly. Ok, I'm one of those stupid artistic types too, yadayada.
It was the only way to calm people down in the house permeated with hate that I grew up in (is that a proper sentence?). Or maybe, it's just my nature, I don't know.
I don't always say everything correctly. I'm sorry for that.
I'm sorry that you can only see things from my children's perspective.
I'm sorry that if you have been abused by some "creepo" (add any long list of adjectives you wish to this), I'm so very, very sorry for your pain.
I'm sorry that you had to endure whatever it was that you went through. I'm so very sorry for your hurt and your saddness and your loss of trust in people, as well as your anger and your fear and your disgust and your shame and your total and utter revulsion and rage and any hate you might feel. I imagine these are things you would have felt but I don't know because I have not been sexually abused. I have been abused, though, in some pretty rotten ways, and I had similar feelings in relation to what happened to me.
I'm sorry if your mother was aware of what was happening and didn't do anything to stop it. That made your torture double. I'm sorry if your mom did not say the things I'm saying here to you, or give you a lot of hugs, or try to help you feel her love for you, or encourage you to let your feelings out. I'm sorry because that would have made you feel so alone and re-violated.
The worst sorrow I feel for you is for the absolute indignity that you endured and anything you may have thought yourself responsible for.
There is no guilt nor shame in what happened to you. It was totally not your fault in any way whatsoever. The adults involved are responsible. I'm so sorry and I understand that this was, is, will always be for anyone who faces it, a horror of immense proportion and I wish only to help you, in any way I can.
But there is hope. When I chose to reject the hate my abusers were feeding me, I took away their power.
You can decide to do that too, if you want to.
I know that it is not an easy thing to do, but it is very doable. It, too, is a choice.
I wish I could take your awful pain away with words and give you peace instead.
Ltl, I'm so glad to meet such a courageous, sensitive, gentle soul as you.
Thankyou for having your own voice, and using it in such a kind and empathetic, and honest way, and for trying so hard to be realistic. I'm sorry for any hurt you endured because of the response I see above here and that's really why I'm back here. I think it is very important for me to express my appology to you because if I hadn't posted here, you would not have been hurt. I did try to use my voice but maybe I was really, really stupid to do so in this place. Or maybe, there are more Ltl's out there who are just not willing to try to speak out for fear of certain rejection and humiliation and yes, verbal abuse.
You are definately not an N anything Ltl, since you are able to admit doing wrong.
I admit, I have my own faults and I have made errors that I do regret. I'm not going to put them here for them to be exploited and mashed into my face. I have dealt with my child's belief (which is not true) that I have "chosen" my husband over her, with her, and long, long before now. Our relationship is improving and there is healing. Her healing would go a lot quicker if there was more encouragement than infusion with hate. And any n-behaviours are being reinforced with a vengance by guess who?
Having grown up in a place that it was rampant with hate, I do think I know a bit about it. It starts out as anger, it sits, it stews, it ferments, it begins to boil and cooks itself into a rage and if left like that, it will solidify into hate.
Ofcourse, that's just my observation and assessment of it, from watching what happened to my sister and some others I have met in my life.
One of the troubles I am having is that I do love my sister and I wish I could help her. Ofcourse, that will never happen until she acknowledges what she has done and faces up to it. I miss her but I don't miss all of her n-behaviours. Her problems are not being dealt with and her kiddies are the ones IIIIIIIIIIIIIII feel for. Because they will not be able to walk away from her, for a very long time, and now, they do not have a loving auntie nearby to confide in, because she -has been banished to hell- for daring to have a voice that differs from the generally accepted.
There are many hard words in this thread and at first, they cut me. I was stupidly not prepared for such a reception and I do appologize for that stupidity. I mistakenly thought this was a place for healing.
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I promise you, this is the truth, I haven’t even read all this page yet, there’s so much. But reading upwards from the bottom, I just saw this:
I have dealt with my child's belief (which is not true) that I have "chosen" my husband over her, with her, and long, long before now. Our relationship is improving and there is healing. Her healing would go a lot quicker if there was more encouragement than infusion with hate.
WTF????
my child's belief (which is not true)
:shock: ??????????? :shock:
Her healing would go a lot quicker if there
:shock: ?????? :shock: we're getting the blame because the child isn't healing quickly enough for someone else's timescale!!! :shock:
Dear Rosemary’s child, please join this Board. I care about you! I’m coming to get you! Can you hang on for me? I do believe your beliefs. I will listen to you. I won’t shame you. I won’t tell you what you think is wrong, or not true. Please know that there are people in this world who do not want to control you, or hurt you, or use you for their own ends, to prop up their own egos. I’m worried about you, child. I wish I knew who you are.
horror
Dear all, shall we ask Dr Grossman to block this poster? This is a scary question.
If he says no, we might think we are in the wrong and someone else is right. Black and white, polarised thinking. Not good. But not if we delve a little deeper. After all, blocking isn’t life or death. She can go somewhere else. And, if we have already learned something from this, we can then move on. We don’t need to keep agonising over he same thing.
Hmmmmm. I’ve learned so much from this. It scares me. And it’s made me realise I have some deeply felt feelings about what is right and what is wrong. What is kind and what is cruel. And what happens when people live in N-ridden false selves. That the moral boundaries simply aren’t there.
But this is the Voicelessness Board. To discuss emotional survival. Hmmm. Should we ask for someone to be blocked who, quite obviously, isn’t voiceless? But who does need bucket-loads of emotional and psychological support and help?? Tricky. Thoughts?
We don’t have to be helpless, defenceless. We can ask Dr G. Shall we? Hey! Think a little harder P. It’s not life or death. We don’t have to ask him to block. We can ask his opinion!!! :D Shall we?
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You choose only to show compassion to the children, so be it.
If you can't understand people showing more compassion to children than to adults, there is a big problem.
bunny
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Hiya bunny. :D Can I post this after you please? Your post is spot on.
Dear God, ‘Signed FOR’, I’ve just read your list of abused friends.
You’ve mentioned some of them to me before, I recognise their names and stories. Someone else reading might think you’d made those up, but I recognise a few, I know you’re speaking the truth. Dear God.
I dunno about asking Dr G’s opinion. What about you? Puts him in that position of authority, lots of responsibility. Not fair to him probably. He can say no thanks, sort it out between you. I might.
We don’t have a board prison, not that I agree with prisons. We don’t have a board ‘serious individual therapy’ room. Also the board is not life. We don’t have to be totally responsible for what happens here, it’s not going to kill someone.
I guess like you indicated ‘Signed FOR’, it comes down to the nature of the board. What it’s here for. Is there any more for anyone to learn? Speak up guys and gals. We need some group discussion. No, not Nuremberg. What’s the question?
Examples: Have you heard enough now?
Can you learn any more?
Is it good to keep giving a false-self N more attention? Please submit your own questions. Can we find a thoughtful consensus on a democratic board?
I might have to start of series of polls on this! Or can someone else please?
Just finished reading all the posts and they end with: I mistakenly thought this was a place for healing.
I say we ask Dr G to kick her butt out. All that empathy from her, and a petulant sting in the tail, piece of shit.
She shames us all with last sentence. Some of us here have had enough shame piled on us.
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We must absolutely show more compassion for the children than the adults.
But must we show absolutely no compassion for those with such sickness?
None?
How will that help? That's all I am asking. I never thought to ask myself that before I faced this situation, I guess. I did so with my father, but not about this. This is considered worse. I agree. It's sicker.
Get who's ever opinion you want. The more the merrior. Think this out, is all I am saying.
What we are doing is not working.
This is happening so profusely that I am appalled and that feeling is what causes me to try to find some kind of solution that will have a positive effect. I'm not able to solve the world's problems, nor is any one person. It does take cooperation and effort from a great many to make a difference.
My children are safe. They are loved. And I have asked for their forgiveness. My oldest is still thinking about it and being driven by my n-sis to suffer more than was ever necessary.
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This thread has stirred up awful feelings in me. I was sexually abused as a child by my father. Reading the post by somebody might as well have been a post by my own N mother. It made me feel all the familiar feelings come out
pain
rejection
anger
hate
confusion
horror
shame
guilt
But I guess that is because I allowed her to make me feel those feelings again, I don't know.
You asked for group opinions on the matter - I don't think there is a place for somebody here. I have always felt this board was a place of refuge for those who have suffered at the hands of them - not the other way around. I don't expect or WANT to agree with people here all the time. We are all different and have our own issues to take care of. But I need a place where the child inside me can come for encouragement, love, peace, advice, and ACCEPTANCE. I cannot do that if perpetrators (and you are one Somebody, whether you admit to it or not) live and stink up our air with their bullshit. I need fresh air in my refuge - to drink it in to cleanse my tortured and crying soul. I don't need any more toxic air. Had enough thanks.
In my mind, I feel sorry for Somebody. But in my heart I hate what she has done to her children and family. I wish my father could have healed his own hurt inner child - it's too late now he's dead. I even feel guilt over that. But again, because I let myself feel that way.
Slowly learning to take care of me first. Don't need to worry about "their" (N's, psychopaths, whatever - and their supporters) needs. Done much too much of that for far too long.
I feel sick now.
Need to go away from the board for some fresh air.
Michelle
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We must absolutely show more compassion for the children than the adults.
But must we show absolutely no compassion for those with such sickness?
None?
Actually I have shown you compassion. I have also shown your H compassion by not even talking about him. I didn't get angry with you and I was pretty nice to you. And you have ignored all of my efforts as though they were nothing. I am still being nice to you. You keep trying to get people to focus on your sister. No one here is going to listen to the problems with your sister. If you want to focus on her, you require a different audience. This has been conveyed to you but you don't hear the feedback. Therefore I believe you continue posting in order to get a negative reaction, for a variety of reasons.
bunny
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I agree with Bunny. No more attention to the coddler.
LTL, this isn't the place for Somebody.
We all make judgements every day. It's something we have been created to do for good reasons. We have been given the gift of judgement (discernment) by a higher power to be used for all sorts of purposes.
This is a place for refuge. Not a place to give comfort to someone who uses NO judgement in staying with a child sexual predator.
MM
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You are right Bunny. I have responded to the negativity here by trying to explain myself: by trying to defend myself for coming here in the first place, and for starting to talk about what has happened in my family.
I am sorry. I should have noted more positives and responded to you too.
Michelle, I had absolutely no desire to cause this to happen for you and I Ideeply regret that it has.
I'm outta here. Unless ofcourse, the next person who has an opinion that differs from the majority here dares to post and is silenced with disrespectful attacks too.
Then I will appologize to that person too, if I am not banned first.
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This should stop now. Enough.
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Hi Somebody,
Your posting here must not be viewed by you as a waste of time,yours or anybody elses'. No amount of kindness or good will toward you can divert from or better yet avoid the "real" issue at hand here. You posted and asked for feedback..a feedback you were probably not expecting..that happens sometimes and we have all at one time or another taken a swim in the river of denial. In all twelve step programs, denial is the first step. You cannot go further down the twelve step road without facing the demon denial.
Since my time here on the board, I have learned much and still have much to explore. There are some very savvy members who take alot of time to think before they answer, people who've possibly been down harder and more challenging roads than yourself. I have learned to respect them and their contributions because they are solidly based on knowledge and personal experience which they have never minimized.
It always hurts the ego to recognize that we are wrong about something.
Respectfully, I believe you should shift your focus from your presumed N sister and what she is doing to you to the real issue. You handled the situation poorly, perhaps because it is/was too difficult for you to grasp/accept/face the magnitude and implication of your behaviour and your role within this scenario.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink..that applies to the posters who spared you no grief, ( remember you asked for feedback) and conversely to you because you led them one way and they picked up on being led.
Try very hard to move beyond your ego bruise. I know it's difficult, real shame hurts but you have to move beyond it.
Cruel to be kind..often effective in extreme cases, I believe this is one of them.
One of the hardest things for me to get beyond was accepting other peoples' anger, accepting other people as they were AND their criticism of me. I find myself wanting to say, you must move away from the pride of your shame! Heavy huh?! Think about that..when it was told to me I almost threw up I was so insulted...with time i'm trying to grasp that little sentence 'til I get it right.
Other peoples' revulsion at your situation can be used as an indicator that something is absolutely not right in what you are saying. Use it as a springboard and propel yourself toward the truth.
Perhaps one day this "shakeup" you've undergone..at your request..'cmon now!..will have been your major turning point.
Should you come, should you go...dun matter ta me none..'cos I don't believe anything happens for nothing.
Make the best of it and good luck,
Nic.
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Very elegantly put, Nic.
Long time lurker or anyone else who is still here:
Legitimate psychology is one thing. Psychobabble (has a whiff of legitimacy) is quite another. The latter is often used to distort, discredit and manipulate. It is in short a propaganda device. And it's evident that this vile article who calles herself "somebody" has a well oiled propaganda machine.
The discussion did get a bit lively. But since we already know that "somebody" can't determine the difference between hate and legitimate anger and outrage, why should anyone get their feelings hurt by her projecting her hate on us.
People, she sleeps with a known, registered sex offender. She has NO credibility. If she had left him and was still interested in seeing what makes these people tick, she wouldn't be the target of anger and derision (which she has earned btw). Please don't be cowed by this imposter. She deserves nothing less than disdain.
My gosh, she can even be polite and conciliatory when the occasion calls for it. IMO this vile article is very narcissistically defended and deserves everything she is getting.
I am sorry that LTL got fooled by this person, but it happens. It doesn't make anyone here an abuser for goodness sake, that is absurd. The absurity would be to legitimize this vileness. I'm glad nobody except LTL got sucked in. It shows me there is a good deal of character on this board.
I am proud of the way people here were willing to take the time, thought and effort to dismantle the spurious pish posh that the propaganda machine was pushing. You are mighty insightful and wonderful posters.
Q
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Psychology is a sport.
Snar
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Whatever that means.
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Warning, You Are Entering Rosemary's Toxic Waste Site.
Enter At Own Risk!
Check your protective suit thoroughtly, and suit up before entry.
Ensure you have access to a Decontamination Chamber after visiting!
A few preliminary thoughts before I'm outta this shit hole. hahahah
1. Why am I waiting for Rosemary to start posting in blue and large. hahahahaahah
2. Why am I waiting for Rosemary to tell us she just had phone call/ visit from her kids and they've forgiven her, and now realise she did the right thing? That they now realise she's wonderful and they were all wrong.
hahahahahahaahahahahahah
3. Why am I waiting for Rosemary, who I diagnose as being JPN, to tell us that she typed out this thread, and all our responses and took it to her therapist, and her therapist diagnosed us all as having major psychological problems.
hahahahaahahahahahahah
4. Why does it remind me so much of some other shit that has been posted here before by a similar JPN person? hahahahahahahahahahaha
5. Why did I predict a visit from LTL? hahahahahha
5a. Why does it feel like I'm seeing the 3 faces of Eve? hahahahahahahaah
6. Why do I suspect LTL and Rosemary might share the same ISP?
hahahahahhahha.
7. Why am I expecting a couple of other of Rosemary's personalities to come along and offer her support? That's a really good reason enough to never return here.
8. Why do I get the feeling that Rosemary is settling in for the long haul, and just loving all the attention? hahahaahahahahahaha
9. Why didn't I recognise the crazy-making pattern sooner?
Because of these questions, and more that I have, I won't be coming back here folks. I think it'll make me sick if I do. Only can handle so much shit. Gotta go now and decontaminate myself, and burn the protective suit that I put on before I came in here.
Reading Rosemary here made me feel like I was swallowed by and found myself in the slimy smelly intestinal tract of huge MIB type alien cockroach.
Thankfully I have a life-rope that I am able to use, and am pulling myself out now.
Leaving Rosemary's Toxic Waste Site Now.
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Went away, came back because I forgot to say:
I am somebody.
No, wait a minute, you said I'm nobody.
No, that's wrong. I could be anybody. I could be your next door neighbour. I could be your friend. (I'm not that other person you're thinking was here before because I have never been to this board before-sorry to disappoint you there- I'm a whole other person with a real voice and I really am leaving this place now).
No, no, no. You said I'm rosemary (you know, I was just starting to get used to that FO Rosemary name). I realize you spelled my name with a capital letter but I figger you have erred there and are thinking I don't even deserve that, so I've put it down --the way it belongs.
Naw, that's not right either, Snar? I've forgotton the "l". I've left out part of my name! Holey Moley call the name-police! Call Big Brother! Tell him to get here quick and fix this up-by ---stifling it. (Stifle Eidith- oh how I wish I could spell).
Quiet!
Silence!!
No talking!!
Quit it!!
The "l" would make my new name "Snarl". OOoo doesn't that sound more like me? A vile vexacious (sp???-I wish) snarling vixin. I know what the "l" stands for and it is part of my new name.
Let me speak too please.
Let's be reasonable.
Let's try to be considerate of eachother (and go ahead, express our anger, but in ways that will not hurt anyone else, if at all possible).
Let's look at the whole picture.
Let's not jump to conclusions without getting all of the facts.
Let's ask questions rather than assume.
Let's be fair and kind and gentle and patient.
Let's just take it easy and not panic.
Let's all see if we can learn from eachother.
Let's not make this any worse for anyone.
Let's be respectful and preserve our and eachother's dignity.
Let's not dammmmmmm anyone because it is not our place to do so.
Jeepers. I could go on and on and on but I better not. I'm tired.
I'm not entitled to speak.
I didn't ask for anyone's opinion, I was trying to put it down in some kind of order and release some of my pain but I do not have that right!
I am sooo dumb.
I should never have expected to be treated with politeness.
I am not in denial but I don't have a right to say that.
Unless I choose the path that is regular, I must except that "high road", that I am in denial.
How dare I have any kind of voice.
Now I get it.
I should have been lynched by now.
Am IIIIIIIII lucky!!!
Lucky-oh so lucky!! Reminds me of a song- "I'm pretty, oh so pretty..."
I am sorry to disappoint.
It's too late to be polite now but thanks o'Nic old buddy old pal.
I have used my voice and I can only hope with all of my heart and soul, that there are others, beside you Ltl, who appreciate my doing that and who respect my right to do so without being stomped on and beaten to a pulp emotionally or any other way, for that matter.
You can make judgements all you like. Just don't force them down anybody else's throat.
I hope you all have a fabulous day and I truly hope you will continue in your struggle to heal.
That issss all any of us are, after all, trying to do.
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Yeah, whatever.
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This place has gotten really weird since I've been away.
Don't want to upset anyone by resurrecting this thread, but I believe this woman is in deep denial about how wrong she is to stay with this man. I would also like to point out the obvious(unless I missed it somewhere on this thread?) to others and to her: many child predators choose single mothers who have children of their particular age and sexual preferences to prey on. So while this woman thinks she has had this wonderful relationship with this man, she may very well not be facing the fact that the entire relationship has been a farce and facade to cover up his true intentions, easy access to her children. For some reason, he was not able to succeed (the strength of the child, it appears). That this child was not able to go to her mother is very sad. That this man did not tell his wife at the time he made his "one time attempt" is also very telling that it went further than that. If he was horrified with himself, he would have come clean and asked for help.
Mother, you should be looking at yourself. Why do you want to stay with a man who would target a child for sexual purposes, who very well may have chosen YOU as a mate for that very purpose? How can you ever trust this man again or believe that he has normal feelings as a man for you?
I'm not even going to go into the rest of the points that were made against this woman staying with this monster, because I have my own very strong feelings about mothers and fathers staying with parents that are bad for their children, for their own selfish reasons, ruining our lives in the process.
Lizbeth
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Dear Somebody,
I hear you.
The deep dilemmas you speak of are familiar to me..across a few generations. I think you have to have been there to understand. But not only been there..also to know God, Jesus and how much we have all been forgiven and recieved by him and also how much he asks us to do the same thing.
I also can hear the others who have replied to you here. The pain, confusion, distrust, desire for protection, validation and support when you have been threatened in this way by an adult who is supposed to love and protect you, in all ways, is a debilitating, on-going, life-changing battle which surfaces to surprise us when we least suspect it. Not every-one "deals" with it and/or recovers to go on to have normal healthy loving relationships.
The question needs to be asked...How can your child really know that they are "unaffected"?..Is there any proof? ..Have they gone on to experience healthy adult relationships?
This is my opinion.
Yes..your sisters behaviour suggests motives which meant to cause harm.
Hard to accept and deal with from one so close.
No..your husband is not a monster. He has provided the ideal platform for all those involved to experience healing and reconcilliation. It is possible when all the hearts involved truly want healing. Has he been prepared to back right off so that your relationships with your children can be mended and healed?
But...the PRIMARY victims in this situation is your child/children.
He/she has lost the most. Years of happy carefree childhood. He/she has lived with years of fear, wondering if or when it was going to happen again or worse and not being able to tell mummy. Knowing that the man who sat accross the table was hiding an awful secret and he/she had to keep it too so that the family stayed together and so that mummy was happy too. ("Mummy really loved this man and he/she wanted mummy to be happy). This child has protected you, protected him/herself and tryed to protect his/her sibling.
This IS a tremdous burden for any child to carry.
This child was unable to leave, unable to tell, unable to relax, unable to get support and understanding from his/her mother, unable to trust those who provided his/her most basic care. This has a serious effect on a child.
Your support of your Husband is commendable. But your child needed you more. As long as it took. As far reaching as it took. As much as it cost you to provide it..TILL or IF..they were prepared to be reconciled with your Husband. THEIR needs were paramount. THEY were the VICTIM. YOU are HIS/HER MOTHER. HE/she has no-one closer then you. THEY needed your support and love far more then your Husband did. He had the advantage of being an adult. Your childs emotional development may be stunted at the level of the abuse.
In my mind it is a question of priorities and who needs you the most. You are or were in a pivitol position to support and bring reconciliation to the family ( with the aid of others) but by nurturing the abused..NOT the abuser. Forgive him yes..but he must stay in the cold till other healing has happened..and this takes a lot longer then a year. Especially if it is a secret held by a child for years.
I say these things with full knowledge of the circumstances ( I have been the child and the mother in these circumstabnces) and having made the same (albeit temporary ) mistake you have done. Forgive yes...but nurture and support the victim untill HE/SHE is able to move forward.
Hugs for you Somebody...I know this nightmare.
It is not a situation where everyone is able to be nurtured. Children need to come first. I'm sorry if this causes further hurt..I hope it may provide a pathway out of the pain. God bless you and your family.
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thank you somebody.
and thanks "fuck off rosemary" :)
Its a difficult thread and obviously brings up many conflicting emotions.
It's also very difficult to express an opinion on such a difficult subject.
speaking for myself I don't think it's necessarily a just because those here now have a 'voice' they now have an excuse to say whatever they want in the way they want to anyone.
Perhaps the things I was trying to say weren’t expressed very clearly - and certainly I could clarify them – but equally perhaps what I was trying to say wasn’t given a fair hearing, by some.
Not that I have to stand up for rosemary, but as an example, when you are trying to express something and you are told you are in denial, you are essentially rendered ‘voiceless’.
Ie your views are not being listened to and you receive a load of verbal abuse for the process of doing it.
I personally don’t think its ok to pull posts and make personal insults the way some posters do, I think it devalues the board as a whole.
Example my previous post was pulled apart. It could have generated discussion and learning on a very difficult subject but that opportunity was missed.
I’ve also been defined as being fooled, I don’t think I have. I have my own opinion, and although it appears to be similar to somebodys in some respects, it does not mean I would support what she has decided to do. My opinion is that condemning someone flat out,(That’s it you are condemned. Nothing you do can change it now. ) Is an approach that gets nobody anywhere. How does one learn from it? just because I say do not condemn does not mean that I think it's ok either !
(now lets hope the poster nobody(if there is one) doesn’t get offended by this)) :)
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This place has gotten really weird since I've been away.
Don't want to upset anyone by resurrecting this thread, but I believe this woman is in deep denial about how wrong she is to stay with this man. I would also like to point out the obvious(unless I missed it somewhere on this thread?) to others and to her: many child predators choose single mothers who have children of their particular age and sexual preferences to prey on. So while this woman thinks she has had this wonderful relationship with this man, she may very well not be facing the fact that the entire relationship has been a farce and facade to cover up his true intentions, easy access to her children. For some reason, he was not able to succeed (the strength of the child, it appears). That this child was not able to go to her mother is very sad. That this man did not tell his wife at the time he made his "one time attempt" is also very telling that it went further than that. If he was horrified with himself, he would have come clean and asked for help.
Mother, you should be looking at yourself. Why do you want to stay with a man who would target a child for sexual purposes, who very well may have chosen YOU as a mate for that very purpose? How can you ever trust this man again or believe that he has normal feelings as a man for you?
I'm not even going to go into the rest of the points that were made against this woman staying with this monster, because I have my own very strong feelings about mothers and fathers staying with parents that are bad for their children, for their own selfish reasons, ruining our lives in the process.
Lizbeth
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Jeeez LTL!
but equally perhaps what I was trying to say wasn’t given a fair hearing, by some.
What? Did you have your fingers chopped off then? Were you incapable of responding again? Come on, you have a strong voice, you can use it, you’re doing it now. You’re attacking someone else, passive-aggressive style. Why?
when you are trying to express something and you are told you are in denial, you are essentially rendered ‘voiceless’.
Come on! The poster was certainly not voiceless. Anything but! Read her posts!
My opinion is that condemning someone flat out,(That’s it you are condemned. Nothing you do can change it now. ) Is an approach that gets nobody anywhere. How does one learn from it?
I’m not going to read all this thread again (my stomach can’t take it, I am not that healed okay? my problem) but: I don’t think we condemned flat out. I think we said –
This is not the place for you. Go somewhere else. I said: here’s just one place to go.
We do not want you here.
We do not believe you have an N problem as your first and most important problem.
I even said come back when you can empathise! I meant that.
LTL, I think people here have learned from this. I have.
But it appears that the original poster is in deep denial – will she learn? It is our responsibility to help her? No.
We can only help ourselves. Yes?
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Hi Portia,
Quote:
when you are trying to express something and you are told you are in denial, you are essentially rendered ‘voiceless’.
Come on! The poster was certainly not voiceless. Anything but! Read her posts!
The point I was trying to make was that having a 'voice' is not just speaking, it is also about being heard. When you are being persistently defined as something (as you did when you said that I am attacking someone else,in a passive-aggressive way,when actually I was defending what I was trying to say)
I would be interested in how you would define the content of your reply to me :-
Quote:
but equally perhaps what I was trying to say wasn’t given a fair hearing, by some.
What? Did you have your fingers chopped off then? Were you incapable of responding again? Come on, you have a strong voice, you can use it, you’re doing it now. You’re attacking someone else, passive-aggressive style. Why?
Why would I take the time and trouble to respond more clearly when that is the response I get. Why express my voice when I am insulted for it?
Certainly I have been given no empathy. and empathy is not something that I expect, but I do value it highly, as you seem too. The point I am making is I was attacked passive-agressively first and am defending myself.
Aren't some of the responses I received part of the reasons why people become voiceless in the first place?
is there really any need to respond in that way?
Personally I don't think there is.
It's also very easy to cut and paste but the following paragraph in my response was the explanation to "why I wasn't given a fair hearing by some"
Given the way you have chosen to respond to me, I see little reason why I should go to this length to explain myself to you and I doubt I will do so again.
As another example :-
Perhaps if you say "I can respond how I want" "I can express myself how I want" you will certainly not be voiceless but perhaps inconsiderate and certainly not displaying empathy. But I wont be in position where I am being heard and surely that is the centre of all good relationships and conversation. Essentially in that exchange I am rendered 'voiceless'
That's the point I was trying to make. A point about me and the way people responded to my posts and how it feels.
Which is also a general point about the process of being voiceless.
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LTL, I’ve read your post a few times now. It seems to me you’re making a point about harsh words rendering people ‘voiceless’.
Did anyone say you were in denial? (I can’t remember.) My point there was not about you, it was about the original poster – who wasn’t (in my view) voiceless and left us with her voice intact. But she wasn’t listening to us - we weren’t being ‘heard’ by her (does that make our voices impotent?). We openly disagreed with her and she stuck to her position. We told here we were uncomfortable with her presence. This isn’t about an intellectual, reasoned decision. It’s about emotion. It’s also about a moral choice:
Do we jeopardise the emotional safety felt by the majority here, for the possible intellectual stimulation that may be provided by talking to someone who enables child abuse? I don’t think we should. Do you? If you look at the reactions here from other posters, they are genuinely upset by the original poster. They may have left the board if that poster stayed to discuss her position in the way she was doing. What is this board for? Voicelessness and emotional survival. I guess I opted for the survival of the abused who are not abusers, and not the enabler. I’m happy that I made that decision. The original poster has other outlets for her voice, we didn’t condemn her to some wilderness.
You say you were attacked passive-aggressively. I think you were attacked aggressively! - there was nothing passive about the way CG replied to you. She didn’t talk about you in the third person, she talked to you, I think. She attacked your post directly. You are not talking directly to her in raising this now. Why not? You are appealing to the board. But the board – all of its members – did not reply to you. I’m not sure even why I’m getting involved.... I guess I disagree with you.
You say “is there really any need to respond in that way?” I presume about CG’s reply to you.
Well when we talk with emotion, yes, there is a need to respond in that way so that others can see/hear our emotion. This is about emotional survival for people who have been abused in one way or another. Hey, people are going to get upset! CG disagreed with you, I guess, with her heart as well as her head. With emotion. This has been an exceptionally emotional thread.
LTL, your posts seem very reasoning, using a pattern of logical thought. Is there emotion behind your posts?
My question to you is – what is your motivation for speaking like this, in what is an emotionally explosive thread?
Couldn’t you have raised this question of Voicelessness and being heard separately in a new thread and thereby be seen not to be enabling the original poster? In appearing to enabler that poster (and you did, on an emotional level, even if you did not on a logical, factual level) you in effect raised the emotional stakes higher. This is how it seems to me. Can you see that?
Long time lurker – why? I mean, why long time lurking? Why are you here? Have you your own story to air? Are you looking for answers? Have you already done this and I’ve not seen it? Let’s talk about you if you want to and leave this thread alone. Please start a new thread. Why? This one genuinely bothers me, but I won’t start another one on your behalf - that would be outright bad manners on my part. Even discussing this thread inside it makes me feel ‘icky’. I hope you understand? Thanks for getting me thinking about this, but I’d rather not do it in this thread…. P
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You say “is there really any need to respond in that way?” I presume about CG’s reply to you.
No it was about your reply to me. There are several
Other posters responded passive agressively to me, in my opinion. and I am talking to you. I had to mention other people, as part of my reply.
why are you speaking for other people?
Rather than just venting emotions in an unproductive way I tried to take the time in my post to express myself in a way that would not hurt anybodys feelings, so I took the extra time. I also hoped that this would be reciprocated, I don't think it was, largely.
I don't use having a'voice' as an excuse to say whatever I want in the way I want and this response is to you portia, but I feel that other posters do this.
I do not talk to them directly as I know what the outcome would be.
There is a book I think, called the elephant in the living room . about a big problem that everyone ignores. at this time I think this very much applies not to this thread but the whole board.
I originally posted on this thread because I thought somebody had a point about some of what she was saying, which I tried to express in my previous posts.
Couldn’t you have raised this question of Voicelessness and being heard separately in a new thread and thereby be seen not to be enabling the original poster? In appearing to enabler that poster (and you did, on an emotional level, even if you did not on a logical, factual level) you in effect raised the emotional stakes higher. This is how it seems to me. Can you see that?
Portia, that about enabling the other poster is your opinion, not a fact. I can that that is how it seems to you. I would question the purpose of your using italics at that moment.
Well when we talk with emotion, yes, there is a need to respond in that way so that others can see/hear our emotion
but aggressively? I absolutely disagree with this point, for what I have expressed earlier.
But anyway we're just going round and round the garden with this ...
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LTL: are you bored or frustrated by our conversation now? I ask because you said:
But anyway we're just going round and round the garden with this ...
If you want me to reply to your post, I will. Please advise.
Whatever, I just listened to this half hour radio programme and was thinking about you in this thread. The programme interviews two women whose daughters were abused by the man they lived with. The two women also interact during the programme. You may be interested in it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/betweenourselves.shtml
Tue 3 Aug,
Sexual Abuse: How would you feel if you discovered your children had been sexually abused? Olivia O'Leary meets two women whose husbands sexually abused their children.
Some info on content:
Does it destroy the relationship with the man?
Deborah: Yes, there’s no way back. Nine year old daughter had been raped and ‘buggered’ for 3 years. Man got 9 year prison sentence.
Ann: No it didn’t. Father touched daughter’s genitals two or three times. We’re now happily married and a functioning family.
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I have 3 questions for you Portia:
1. Was there a lot of arguing where you grew up (or is there now), as it seems you are really enjoying this part the most?
2. Who died and made you God of Who should or should not be allowed to post on this board and who gave you the special powers to belittle, insult, degrade and genuinely hurt people with your words and general attitude without constraint?
And 3. Who chained your arms to the pc and forced you to reply to this thread, that makes you feel so icky you can't even re-read it, (maybe because reading your own nasty stuff is a bit upsetting at this point) anyhow?
If you don't like this thread, then move on. There are many, many other things to read on this board. No need to feel so very obligated to totally and utterly disqualify any person who will not agree to justify your (and I will add some others too) abusive way of communicating. Don't do that anymore, ok? There are much nicer ways to get your point across (that is if your point were requested in the first place).
This was my thread. It was my voice trying to just say some stuff that you don't agree with but that you, nor any other, were asked to comment on.
So one more question for you:
Why don't you post elsewhere and end this ridiculous battle that has been created for no reasonable reason, other than people's natural tendancy to make assumptions (many of which are quite incorrect); by making judgements (without even trying to get the facts first); and by reacting not so nicely, when the realitiy is: it is very possible to make emotional statements without causing harm (a skill you may want to consider developing)?
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I want to make it clear that it is not in my nature to want to run anyone off the board. Including "Somebody". I would rather act in kindness and invite others to stay and learn. I know from my own years, that growth and understanding takes time and experience. The most I hope to contribue to others is an idea- that once planted may take years to percolate through before it is fully understood or acted on. I have patience. I have to. I look back over my shoulder and shudder at who I once was.
However, if someone is abusive to another for their own jollies, the lamest reason of all being to assert their long lost voice, I will speak up.
While here, kudos to you LONGTIMELURKER & SNARL , and anyone else I may have missed, for speaking what I was unable, in defence of "Somebody".
It's not an elephant in the room- it's a Mastadon. Phoenix
Phoenix, in case it's not clear, can I just say that Snarl above who says: "This was my thread" is the Somebody who posted. I got the impression you may not have realised that. P
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I want to make it clear that it is not in my nature to want to run anyone off the board. Including "Somebody". I would rather act in kindness and invite others to stay and learn. I know from my own years, that growth and understanding takes time and experience. The most I hope to contribue to others is an idea- that once planted may take years to percolate through before it is fully understood or acted on. I have patience. I have to. I look back over my shoulder and shudder at who I once was.
However, if someone is abusive to another for their own jollies, the lamest reason of all being to assert their long lost voice, I will speak up.
While here, kudos to you LONGTIMELURKER & SNARL , and anyone else I may have missed, for speaking what I was unable, in defence of "Somebody".
It's not an elephant in the room- it's a Mastadon. Phoenix
Jeez Pheonix Hun, it's bin so hard ta not notice that all this shit has started since you've returned.
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Phoenix, I am sorry that you are being accused of doing something that you didn't do. Believe me, I know what that feels like.
Ltl- People profess that others are in denial while denying. What can I say?
The fact that P (according to her ramble thread) was screaming "submit" at her pc, with such gusto and serious desire, indicates clearly her aim to control the topic of this thread, just as my sister's desire was to control the future of my family.
So too, as P stated she "does not want to empathize" while demanding that I go away and come back when I (in her humble opinion, mind you) am able to "empathize", shows plainly the contradictory, confusing, chaotic, demanding, impossible to please etc behaviour that any n might display.
The judgemental accusations, the abusive language, the name calling, none of that is verbal abuse? Who denies this?
Sorry, no disrespect meant P, just my observation. It is one thing to wish to have control over one's own situation, one's own life, one's own thread on a message board, and quite another to try to take control- of somebody else's. I don't mean to hurt your feelings by saying this.
And I am sorry for speaking about a subject that you disagree with but unfortunately, as much as you wish to deny it, it is my right to do so. You do not have to read this thread. There is no one holding you down and forcing you to do so. It is your choice.
It was not me who transferred the focus, the subject of my thread, to my decision (which by the way, was my right to make) to remain married to my husband. I began to speak about my pain and my losses and I was trying to say, which I may not have done to your liking, or clearly enough at all, that the greatest pain I am suffering still, after all of this time, is the hurt and the anger, the shock and confusion, the many and profuse feelings that have been generated due to the loss of the relationship I thought I had with my sister. I love my sister but I cannot help her. I have never been able to help her. I wish I could help her. And even as you disagree with my wanting to discuss this subject, you deny that it is my right to do so.
Patsy: I am so sorry that it has taken this long for me to reply to your post. I hear your kindness and loving heart being voiced. I do greatly appreciate your effort. I will not begin to answer your questions here. I will say only that some of the things you have stated are also, assumptions that are incorrect. I am very sure that most people make assumptions (I do it myself and judgements too) but the great denial I hear here, in this thread, is that these assumptions people are making are now fact. Assumptions are not fact. You have asked some questions which I will answer, Patsy, but I can't see your post right now because I am responding to Phoenix's post, so that will have to be done later. I don't know how to look at your post, while responding to Phoenix's and I can't remember your questions.
I am not at all familiar with how to view stuff, add quotes, and I couldn't make the colour blue and large, P, even if I wanted to because I don't know how. I have never been to this board before. I am not someone else, I am Somebody (not Phoenix). (And I am sorry for the confusion I caused you Phoenix by using the name Snarl, which you will see how it came to be mine, if you look back to a previous post of mine- but you have shown me that I must not use that name, because it is too confusing for those who may not have time to read this whole thread, or who may miss that particular information. I am Somebody and I will use that name from now on).
I am not one of your old enemies, P. I am not known to you P, and that paranoia, I suspect, is also part of n-ness. Is it? Boy, could I tell you stories about that paranoia in my family!
Ltl, you are so very clearly stating that it is so much better to think before opening your mouth, and so very good at doing that. I agree to disagree, civilly (I wish I could spell), with you, if necessary, at times, and I do greatly appreciate the respectful way you try to get your point across. It is truly admirable behaviour.
I was out of town from July 27th until Aug 8th and I did my share of thinking about what's gone on here. The power struggle is now over. I have decided that I will not allow this bullying that has occurred here, to continue to be the name of this game, so to speak. I have so far, not been banned, which indicates to me that I am correct to assume that I do have a right to speak. I am doing my very best to be thoughtful before doing so (which is also a quality, P, part of the skill of speaking without causing harm to others. It is not something to be criticized). Calmness, does not indicate a lack of emotion, P. I'm speaking to you because it seems you may have somehow acquired that idea. Gentle words do not indicate a lack of emotion either, P. Nor do kind, respectful, or otherwise compassionate words. These words indicate very clearly, a person's desire to speak their thoughts and emotions, without causing harm. Please do not be insulted. Swearing is verbal abuse. You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs. If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
I am not trying to harm you P. I have no ill will against you and I am speaking directly to you because you are indeed the first person on this thread to begin swearing at me, which is verbal abuse, which you cannot define otherwise, or find any justification for doing. It is wrong to swear at a person simply because you disagree with a decision they have made in their life and it is wrong to do so with the complete and utter disregard for that person's emotional state, or without concerning yourself with the effect your words may have. I am very sorry P, but I must inform of this fact because it seems to me, that you deny it, maybe, because you are not aware of it.
You are a good person P. That is my best bet. You have been through some very, very tough times and I am positive that I do not know very much about your experience at all. I do not mean to cause you grief but I do mean, very clearly and very simply, to point out to you that you have no right to lash out at me. You have a right to disagree but an obligation, as a good person, to disagree in a respectful manner.
You are not in charge of deciding who may speak about what, as far as I can see. I have not come here, to this place, to start any kind of war, to generate some big explosive emotional thread. It was you, P, who exploded in anger and emotionally swore at me. I am very sorry that you did that, but I do forgive you. I have done the same thing myself, sometimes, I do admit.
You may decide not to respond to me and just keep posting on this thread or you may decide to do any number of other things. Those are your choices. I do suggest, that you put great thought into your next decision and that whatever it may be, you present it, in a respectful, non-verbally-abusive manner. I suggest that you stop trying to justify swearing at people (along with all the many other examples of verbal abuse on this thread-best to stop trying to justify it as "emotional" expression). I suggest that you do your very best to express yourself in a way that will generate respect for you, in others, rather than encourage them to behave disrespectfully. You are a great example to others, P. Don't blow it by staying stuck in swear-mode, in disrespect-mode, in belittle, degrade, n-mode. You're only fooling yourself.
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Woopsie. I meant to say that swearing is not an appropriate emotional expression. I do agree with you there, P. Swearing is definately emotional expression. It's just not appropriate.
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Just nipping in to say thank you to somebody and to phoenix. It makes me feel that the effort I put into my posts were not wasted.
and to Portia, you asked if I would like a response to my previous thread - my answer is that I would not. I'm not falling into the trap of explaining myself. (or is that an explanation itself, round and round the garden we go :)
I don't have anything to add, just that maybe there's still enough room in our virtual living room to walk around the elephant ! :)
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Hi Somebody,
Your posting here must not be viewed by you as a waste of time,yours or anybody elses'. No amount of kindness or good will toward you can divert from or better yet avoid the "real" issue at hand here. You posted and asked for feedback..a feedback you were probably not expecting..that happens sometimes and we have all at one time or another taken a swim in the river of denial. In all twelve step programs, denial is the first step. You cannot go further down the twelve step road without facing the demon denial.
Since my time here on the board, I have learned much and still have much to explore. There are some very savvy members who take alot of time to think before they answer, people who've possibly been down harder and more challenging roads than yourself. I have learned to respect them and their contributions because they are solidly based on knowledge and personal experience which they have never minimized.
It always hurts the ego to recognize that we are wrong about something.
Respectfully, I believe you should shift your focus from your presumed N sister and what she is doing to you to the real issue. You handled the situation poorly, perhaps because it is/was too difficult for you to grasp/accept/face the magnitude and implication of your behaviour and your role within this scenario.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink..that applies to the posters who spared you no grief, ( remember you asked for feedback) and conversely to you because you led them one way and they picked up on being led.
Try very hard to move beyond your ego bruise. I know it's difficult, real shame hurts but you have to move beyond it.
Cruel to be kind..often effective in extreme cases, I believe this is one of them.
One of the hardest things for me to get beyond was accepting other peoples' anger, accepting other people as they were AND their criticism of me. I find myself wanting to say, you must move away from the pride of your shame! Heavy huh?! Think about that..when it was told to me I almost threw up I was so insulted...with time i'm trying to grasp that little sentence 'til I get it right.
Other peoples' revulsion at your situation can be used as an indicator that something is absolutely not right in what you are saying. Use it as a springboard and propel yourself toward the truth.
Perhaps one day this "shakeup" you've undergone..at your request..'cmon now!..will have been your major turning point.
Should you come, should you go...dun matter ta me none..'cos I don't believe anything happens for nothing.
Make the best of it and good luck,
Nic.
This was well thought out and expressed
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Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
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Thank you Guest for pointing out that this emperor has no clothes on. What you said is tough but true. Thank you, I appreciated the content of your post. I hadn't even seen all that. Too crazy-made.
When the truth is spoken, sod the way it's said. It just needs to be said, screamed, shouted, sworn out. The truth is more important than the way it is presented. Content over image every time. P
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Sorry guest- I began the thread and that "scenario change" to change the focus from the topic I began my thread with has been brought about by others. Nice try though.
So what you are saying then is, that if I ask someone to please not be insulted by my words, because, by the way, I'm trying to spare their feelings and trying really hard to let them know that I mean no harm, or to cause them any insult or disrespect, that by asking that question, you are saying that I am taking away their free will? So now they have no choice but to listen to me? My voice penetrates their very being and somehow takes control of them and forces a decision because I asked that question?
Nope. Sorry again. By asking a question (or otherwise saying, no insult intended), I am giving you the choice to answer it or not, accept the idea or not, hear me or not.
Nice try again, guest. By asking a question, I am giving that person information and they maintain their free will. I am helping to define their choices for them, so they won't miss the choice to decide not to be insulted, because I have pointed out the fact that I am trying not to hurt them, because I want to be sure they understand my intentions, rather than make an incorrect assumption and possibly choose to be insulted, rather than spoken to with respect, as I am trying to help them understand.
So you think then, that I have endorsed sexual abuse and that I believe it is an ok thing then?? Alrighty, go back to the doc and get your lenses adjusted because that is not at all what I have stated or what I believe. This is meant in jest (the get your lenses fixed part), just for the record.
Nope, I won't accept your assumption or your incorrect judgement, but keep trying, if you really want to. That's your choice.
The real issue here, folks, is control. A desire to control my thread. A desire to change the focus of it. A desire to define me as something I am not. A desire to control my definition of my beliefs, my morals, my thoughts, etc. A desire to insult, degrade, belittle, etc and otherwise punish me. A control issue. The real issue here is...
Control.
Sorry to let you know it plainly, I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I won't allow you to keep changing the topic back to what you want just because you think you have that right. I have a right to speak and I see your desire to stop me from doing that and I see your desire to control what we talk about here and I see your desire to force me to focus on what you want me to focus on. I understand that this is something you may not be aware of and I really mean it when I say I have no intention of hurting you.
No insult meant. Simply pointing out the truth. Sorry to hurt your feelings if I did so.
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Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
-
attractive - like a car crash.
I almost got drawn in again :)
I feel that it was my post that and the discussion between portia and myself that changed the direction of the thread -just noticed somebodys post and she's quite capable of speaking up for herself - guest has made a of assumptions here. I wonder if you go around speaking to people in your everyday life and speaking about them in the same way you have demonstrated on the board. Perhaps we have been selected for special treatment.
classic manipulation tactics, that's all it is.
Cut, paste and twist.
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attractive - like a car crash.
I've trained myself to look away from real car crashes. I don't need any more disturbing images of mangled bodies in my head.
she's quite capable of speaking up for herself
Who? Somebody or me? I'm not. I didn't see what Guest pointed out. But I see it now.
- guest has made a of assumptions here.
How come? I don't get this.
I wonder if you go around speaking to people in your everyday life and speaking about them in the same way you have demonstrated on the board.
Shame shame shame. You you you.
Perhaps we have been selected for special treatment.
You should be so lucky!
classic manipulation tactics, that's all it is.
What, truth-telling?
Cut, paste and twist.
Cut paste and quote and ask questions. I know, I'm just too curious and enquiring for my own good. That's my trouble. But note that I'm scared of Somebody. Too scared to address her directly here. Yeah. P
-
Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
-
The second issue is blame.
Blame me for causing an emotionally explosive thread, when it was not I who became emotionally explosive.
Blame me for P's behaviour.
Blame me for all that's happened in my family.
Blame, blame, blame.
Blame me. Try to make me take responsibility for other people's behaviour. Try to make me feel really bad. Try to infuse me with guilt and shame and try to hurt me and punish me. Control.
Seems clear to me.
Sorry, I won't take the blame for other people's behaviour and I won't give in to your control issues.
That's how I survived growing up in such a house of horrors.
I'm so darn obstinate and I really do try to understand people's feelings and behaviour.
I understand that many here may have experienced this problem of people trying to control them and blame them and otherwise make them feel really bad.
I understand that some of those people who did that may have been sucessful in controlling (wish I could spell) you and caused you great harm.
I'm so sorry for that and I'm sorry that you learned to behave like that.
I did not.
I wouldn't allow it, for some reason, I don't know why.
I stuck to my guns.
I kept my initial attitude:
"I'm not going to let these idiots drive me bananas".
I still have that attittude.
I am sorry, I am not saying that you are idiots. Absolutely not. You are intelligent, and I bet, very good people.
I am explaining that it was my attitude that helped me through the trauma I have experienced and it is my attitude that will not change.
Attitude is everything.
I started this thread and I started it with my topic of choice.
Please allow me my choice and free will please?
-
But not too scared to log back in. That was in fact me above, about 2 posts ago, in case anyone should wonder. P
-
Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
-
See Portia?
By continuing to bump your post ahead, you are trying to force the reader now. Trying to make sure the reader reads your post first. Control Portia.
Control this thread. Control which post appears first.
Control the topic.
Control the issues.
Control the picture that is portrayed.
Control Portia.
I'm so sorry, Portia. I don't mean to hurt your feeelings and I certainly understand how hard it is to admit such a thing.
It's not easy.
It takes guts.
Just courage and honesty.
Control Portia.
I'm sorry for pointing this out.
I'm trying to be kind and I'm trying to help you see.
You are trying to force.........
-
Somebody, I just got my courage up.
Somebody, I won't let myself be scared of you any more.
Somebody, I have a serious question for you. This has been bothering me since this thread started.
Please will you tell us:
what did your husband do?
what did he 'offer'?
Will you please tell us the truth about this?
-
Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
-
That long post is not me. I am posting as P only. I am talking to you now Somebody. What did he do?
-
Portia, I don't know where you got the idea to be "scared" of me but let me assure you, there is nothing to be scared of.
I will not answer your question Portia.
You are trying to bring the topic back to your choice Portia.
Control.
You are trying to keep the reader focussed on your thread by reposting it and reposting it and reposting it.
That's a control issue Portia.
I'm so sorry to give you this fact.
You are only fooling yourself.
Please stop for a moment and consider the possiblity that I am actually telling you the truth.
I am so sorry because I know admitting this will be embarassing and I don't want you to feel that.
It is not your fault whatever happened to you Portia.
You did not teach yourself to have a control issues.
I do not blame you Portia and I offer you language you understand (I hope).
(((((((((((((((((((P)))))))))))))))))))))
-
Somebody, I just got my courage up.
Somebody, I won't let myself be scared of you any more.
Somebody, I have a serious question for you. This has been bothering me since this thread started.
Please will you tell us:
what did your husband do?
what did he 'offer'?
Will you please tell us the truth about this?
Sorry ma'am, I cut you off.
-
It's okay Guest.
Somebody. I don't care right now what you say about me.
I dont care what you say about you.
What is the truth Somebody? What did he do? This is important.
-
My wish for you Portia is that you will hear what I am saying, that I do not wish to hurt you, but that I will not give up my free will, my choice, my voice, and that you would be best to stop trying to force, that it's not your fault that you have learned to do this, and that I understand and only wish to help you stop fooling yourself.
To control.
-
To control or wish to control one's own life, one's own situation, one's own thread on a message board, is quite acceptable.
We all want to control our own stuff and so we should. Otherwise, we would be like zombies, running around like robots, letting others push all the buttons and make us go.
To want and to work so very hard at controlling others,
is not acceptable.
It shows a difficulty in defining boundaries.
It shows a lack of empathy and respect.
It is unacceptable behaviour.
Demand respect people.
You deserve to be respected.
Don't let controlling people get the best of you.
Understand that they don't really see, that they may not be aware, that they feel trapped in their behaviour, if they are aware of what they are doing, and try to help them stop.
I'm so sorry Portia.
I really am.
I will help you in any reasonable way I can.
I do not wish to hurt you or insult you or show you any disrespect.
-
Somebody, I'm still talking to you.
You think your sister is an N. You come here looking for advice.
You tell us your H did something to your child.
You are still with your H.
I cannot sweep aside the abuse of your child and answer your N question. I need to know you better. I need to know the whole story. I need to be able to relate to you.
The whole story Somebody. It matters.
What did he do?
-
No Portia.
I came here to voice my emotions.
I did not ask for advice.
I'm not asking you to answer anything Portia and I feel disrespected, insulted, hurt, shamed, degraded, judged incorrectly, by yours, and some other's words, but most of all I feel your attempt to force, Portia and I don't accept it.
I am sorry Portia.
I am not asking you to understand me or my situation or my story anymore. I already did that and you tried to focus this thread on one issue, without "wanting to empathize", without hearing or waiting to hear the rest of the story. I'm not interested in giving you those details now because I feel that you will only continue in this fashion of speaking disrespectfully to me. You're still trying to force the issue to be what you choose. You're still trying to control what topic is discussed here.
Now, after all of these struggles, you suddenly want the rest of the story. I'm sorry Portia. I don't feel comfortable giving you that now. You have hurt me and you have not acknowledged it. You haven't taken responsibility for your behaviour. You're simply trying to force me to speak about what you want me to speak about.
Control Portia.
I'm so sorry. I really am. I will do anything I can to help you see this and I will do anything I can to help you understand that this behaviour is wrong. It is wrong to try to force or control others. Period.
Force.
Control.
I am so sorry Portia. I really am. It's a tough thing to face up to.
-
What is the truth?
I've changed in my attitude to you. I really want to know. I do.
What did he do?
-
Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
-
The truth, Portia, is that you are demanding to know information, quite personal information at that, another sign that you are not respecting the boundaries each person has.
The demanding part is very controlling.
The truth, Portia, is that continuing to bump up your post, you are trying to force everyone who reads this thread, to read your post first.
Force Portia.
Control Portia.
Please, please hear me. It is not your fault that you have learned to do this and I understand your great desire to be in charge of this thread, to keep the focus where you want it and to silence all other ideas.
It is not an easy thing to face up to.
-
you are not respecting the boundaries each person has.
You are starting to make me speechless.
The truth, Portia, is that continuing to bump up your post, you are trying to force everyone who reads this thread, to read your post first.
It is not my post. That is the truth.
For pity's sake: what did he do? It's a simple question.
-
Just as it was not an easy thing for my husband to face up to his behaviour.
Although, he did so on his own. He did not have the advantage you have Portia. He did not have my offer of support or understanding, not until he actually made the choice to face up to it, did I make a decision in that regard. Nor did I give him the information I am giving you Portia. I didn't tell him that he would need to face up to his behaviour or lose any support from me (but he is not a stupid person so I am sure he figgered that out on his own).
Just as it is not easy for my sister to face up the her behaviour.
Although, she did have my offer of support and understanding.
Are you my sister Portia? (Remember Dr. Zues (wish I could spell), are you my mother??? ).
Just kidding. Honestly. I know it is not easy to admit it when we do wrong. I know it is hard to admit a control issue. I know it takes courage to face up to behaviour that is wrong.
I have done wrong myself, many times in my life.
It takes courage and honesty to admit to wrong doing and to face the consequences.
For you Portia, the important consequence of facing up to the fact that you are so very determined to control this thread, to contol the topic, to quiet my voice unless I do what you demand, the valuable consequence of recognizing the truth is.....
Moving from denial into acceptance.
(with maybe a few steps inbetween but who's counting?)
Portia, you are a good person. You have a very strong, very correct moral base. You have so much going for you.
I'm asking you to stop trying to control this thread. Please be honest and courageous. Please stop trying to control my voice.
-
Please stop trying to control my voice.
Incredulous, slightly hysterical laughter from me. The kind of laughter that turns to tears very quickly.
Somebody: I almost don't know what to say. Except:
Please tell me - what did he do? Please?
-
Your laughter is inappropriate Portia.
What I am saying to you is not the least bit funny.
You are demanding information and trying to control this thread.
Please stop.
-
My 'laughter' is my safeguard against complete insanity caused by crazy-makers.
I will not stop, no.
What did your H do to your child?
Why won't you answer this simple question?
-
That's an interesting coping mechanism. But are you aware that it actually makes you look like the "crazy maker" when you use it inappropriately?
No insult intended. Truly.
Why do you demand to know this information Portia?
Why, why, why must you maintain this attempt to force it?
No, I am sorry. I already explained but I will repeat. I do not feel comfortable giving you information about my situation any more because you have treated me with such disrespect and caused me to lose trust in you Portia.
Please stop asking, over and over, for the information.
Please stop trying to control the topic.
Please realize that you have behaved in a similar fashion to what my husband did, and to what my sister did. Please be aware that we all behave in ways that we regret sometimes and that we are all fallable and that you are just as good as anyone else.
Please know that I understand this and I understand that your desire to control my thread, to control the topic, to know information that I don't feel comfortable giving you, was taught to you.
And it isn't your fault.
-
That's an interesting coping mechanism. But are you aware that it actually makes you look like the "crazy maker" when you use it inappropriately?
Use it? It’s spontaneous. I can’t help it. Use it?
I’ve told you why I want, why I would like the information about what your H did to your child. It’s to understand. To relate. I am not in a position to demand, Somebody.
I can’t make you do anything. Everything you do here is your own choice, your own responsibility. You are responsible for answering me, engaging with me here. You don’t have to respond.
I don’t have to respond either. I shall stop soon. I’m getting tired, but I’d really like to know about the truth about your H and your child. Maybe I’ll just ask another day.
Please stop trying to control the topic.
I am tired. What is the topic Somebody? What do you think the topic is?
you have treated me with such disrespect and caused me to lose trust in you Portia.
Do you mean to say that you did once trust me? That would amaze me. Surely we don’t know each other well enough to trust? Depends what you mean by trust I guess. Disrespect? Well, respect is earned, we all know that.
Please realize that you have behaved in a similar fashion to what my husband did, and to what my sister did. Please be aware that we all behave in ways that we regret sometimes and that we are all fallable and that you are just as good as anyone else.
Please know that I understand this and I understand that your desire to control my thread, to control the topic, to know information that I don't feel comfortable giving you, was taught to you.
And it isn't your fault.
Please realise that you are trying to control my mind. And your attempts are not working. P
-
The good news is that you have stopped swearing at me Portia and I must compliment you on doing that much.
It's so interesting the way different people think, isn't it?
You can think what you want.
That is your choice.
I can't control your mind.
The topic was.............my feelings, as I have already said.
You are trying to make it.................information you now require to understand what you didn't "want" to empathize with and understand prior to now.
I do congratulate you, Portia, on making that progress.
That is a good thing. You say you "want" to understand now and to relate.
That's great!
But you are demanding that I answer your question (so to speak) by repeatedly asking for it, even though I have told you that I don't feel comfortable answering it now, and even though I have given you the reasons why, even though I have asked you to stop asking for the information. You want that info don't you Portia?
You want to control this thread and you want to force me to answer your question and that's why you will not stop asking for the answer (and thus, demanding I answer it before we go any further).
To keep the topic......the answer to the question you have now asked.
Prior to this.....the topic you wanted was to focus on what my husband did.
This is still the same topic you are requiring.
I wanted the topic of this thread to be my feelings.
But you won't allow that.
You went on to cause hurt.
You are still trying to keep the focus where you want it.
Control Portia.
Force by repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly insist, insist, and just keep on with what-----you--------want.
It is a demanding thing you are wanting.
I am sorry Portia, I do not mean to hurt your feelings in any way and I do not mean to cause you to feel "scared" or like I am trying to "control your mind" or anything else inappropriate.
I am trying to help you see that you are the pot calling the kettle black by behaving like the kettle.
Respect. I'm sorry that you believe such a thing, Portia. All people deserve respect. All people have a basic human right to respect.
A little child deserves respect and does not need to earn it.
That respect is one thing in this life that should be assumed.
That respect is a given.
The child does not have to earn that respect, Portia.
Respect can be lost and yes, Portia, then it must be earned back.
Trust, yes I did trust you. I read some of your ramblings and I decided that you seemed like a good person. I was shocked, hurt, and insulted by your posts to me and I lost that trust immediately.
I am responding to you Portia and I have responded with my observations and I have responded with my feelings.
You have not acknowledged my feelings nor responded to my observation that you behaved in a way that created those feelings.
I am sorry Portia, I know this can't be an easy thing to acknowledge.
-
Somebody, don’t patronise me please. I know who I am. I do not need you to monitor my responses here and give me feedback on my behaviour.
From your last post it seems to me that you want the current topic to be me and my problems as you see them.
Is that the current topic? Is that what you want?
A little child deserves respect and does not need to earn it.
That respect is one thing in this life that should be assumed.
That respect is a given.
The child does not have to earn that respect, Portia.
Enough. This sticks in my throat, my eyes. A little child deserves respect Somebody? I want to weep.
I can’t take any more today. I feel unwell again. I feel physically unwell. I’m outta here. But I’ll keep coming back Somebody to ask you. I really want to know what your H did. So I’ll keep asking until you’re ready to tell us. Maybe that won’t happen? Whatever. P
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I understand that you are tired now Portia.
I am going out to cut the grass.
Wish me luck.
The stupid lawn mower keeps breaking.
I find cutting the grass very therapeautic.
Take your time Portia and know that I feel no anger toward you.
I really don't.
I don't want you to feel guilty or shamed for having a desire to control this thread because it is not your fault that you were taught to behave that way.
I do want you to consider one thing.
You say you "cant'".
Think about that.
You can't help laughing inappropriately.
You can't stop yourself from reacting inappropriately.
Are you saying you have a problem that cannot be dealt with??
No Portia.
You are responsible for controlling your own impulses and you are the only one who can do that.
((((((((((((((((((P))))))))))))))))))))))) I mean it.
I want to be friends (even though you say the people on the net are not "firends"). If we were to relate to eachother in a much more respectful manner, and the trust that has so far been lost were being rebuilt, I think we could actually be net-friends. How about that for a term?
Take care Portia. I really do mean that.
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Somebody,
I do not feel that Portia is trying tocontrol the thread nor is she 'crazy-making' as you say. She is simply trying to get the information that probably anyone reading through this thread would need in order to make an accurate assesment of the situation.
The reason that your post brings out such strong emotions in most of us is this: We all know to some degree what it is like to be abused and feel that we are helpless in knowing that your daugher has gone through/ will deal with for *life* with what appears to be your consent (by not leaving your H for good you are 'condoning' the behavior on some level).
Nobody should have sworn at you, Somebody. We can emphathize with you on that. But abuse of a child trumps swearing and I think that is why Portia did swear (don't mean to speak for you, Portia, but this is what it appeared like to me). Kind of like a child running into the street. The mother may yell or run out and grab the child roughly to get him/her out of the street. The important thing was to get the child out of danger, not whether the child was yelled at/ grabbed in order to do this.
This thread made me feel sick to my stomach at times. I have three small children and love my H/ their dad. But if he *EVER* harmed them in this way, I would leave him. Period. This, IMO, would be the *most loving* thing to all involved (including him). It's so hard to hear about a child being abused in this way and for all of us being unable to help that child. Please, Somebody, try to see that we have nothing to prove here. No reason to bully you or treat you with disrespect. However, we are MORE concerned with your innocent daughter and want to help her by getting through to you, her MOTHER.
Take care,
-El
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Well El,
I totally understand what you are saying in regards to what you think you would do if your husband did something like this, because I thought I would do the exact same thing, and I had no problem in voicing that idea either. We are definately all on the same level there.
On the other hand, it has not happened in your family yet. You have not made a decision about it because you have not had to. You do not know what you would do, but you think you know. So did I.
Let me correct you by saying that I said that Portia's inappropriate laughter made her appear to be the one "crazy making". I disagree with what you think about the control issue, which has been plainly stated here.
As a matter of fact, you are enabling her to continue with that control issue, sorry to say, no insult meant or intended. Just an observation.
Are you saying that I do not know what it is to be abused? Please reread my original post.
Contrary to your assumption, I have made it quite clear to all involved, including in this thread, that I neither condone, accept, believe to be acceptable, nor find anywhere easy to stomach, on any level, to any degree---my h's behaviour. However, I have made a decision. I have made a very sound decision based on a number of things which are necessary in order to make a sound decision. I took my time about making that decision (but was immediately deemed "condoning", as here, because I did indeed take my time to find out all of the facts and make a sound decision based on a whole bunch of really necessary stuff. But I didn't come here to discuss my decision, how I came to make it or otherwise, although I probably would have discussed that, had I been treated with respect).
The respect I demand. The respect all people deserve. Sorry to say. It's a basic human right. Mine has been greatly violated here.
Are you empathizing with me El regarding the swearing thing? I think you are trying to say that and I do appreciate that. Thank you. I have already complimented Portia on correcting that swearing at people thing.
After the mother runs out into the street, El, and grabs her child, and protects her, her next obligation, El, is to appologize for yelling.
"I'm sorry I yelled at you. I love you. I don't want you to get hit by a car. That's why I yelled. That's why I grabbed you. etc or maybe less, depending on the child's age, developmental level, etc but the bare minimum- I'm sorry I yelled. I love you."
I don't hear that here. I don't hear I'm sorry I swore at you. I reacted badly. I didn't mean to hurt you. Am I deaf????????
You have assumed that I did not run out into the street.
That is an incorrect assumption.
Be as concerned with my child as you like. That does not give anyone a reason to bully anyone, nor does it give anyone justification to assume that I have had any less concern than anyone else here. I'm her mother, for crying OUT loud (did anyone see that movie??). I love her more than words. I don't understand why it is so easy to assume that I was, have not been, nor still am, concerned about her. How can you decide that?
Your assumption is incorrect.
The disrespect that has been shown was unwarrented and cannot be explained away. Responsibility must first be taken for that lack of patience and that quick, judgemental hammer that has come down on my voice.
I am sorry to point this out.
I am sorry to wish to express my feelings but I do have a right to do that and I have a right to do it without being verbally abused before I have a chance. I did not ask for anyone's opinion. I don't want anyone's opinion because I am not worried about what other people think.
I am however, starting to understand my sister's behaviour a whole lot better.
No insult meant. I really do not wish to hurt your feelings El and I do appologize in advance if I have done so. I stand by what I say and that is that we are all capable of behaving pretty badly. I understand it. I can genuinely empathize pretty well. Not just with my daughter.
And that is what I came here to try to do more so, with my sister.
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If I were you Portia, I would have thought:
"I hope the stupid lawn mower runs over her and chops her into a million pieces".
I'm quite capable of evil thoughts too, believe me.
Just letting you know, it started to rain. I had to quit cutting the lawn. I'm off to grocery shop now. I won't ask for your good wishes again, as that was a bit much for me to ask.
I do want to appologize to you. You said that post by the guest that ended with idea that the big issue here was swearing wasn't yours. I didn't believe you. I had no reason not to. I'm sorry.
I would like you to know something and I hope you will believe me.
I have not posted on your ramble thread at all.
Not once.
If there is someone on this board who is tormenting Portia, would you please get a grip?? That is really weird, childish, nutty behaviour. Please try to have respect for Portia and please try to behave in a more mature manner. We all act a bit nutty once in awhile so please, just quit it.
Have a fabulous day everyone! I really do mean that. Try hard to curb those evil thoughts about me (that you may be having) and give me a tiny bit of a break, please? Please do not assume that I am somehow a very immoral person.
That assumption is specifically and quite seriously, incorrect.
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Somebody,
I have been debating all day as to whether I should respond again on this thread or not. I was very interested in your conversations with Portia this morning. The thing that I don't understand is why a swear word is such a big point of contention. I understand that it can hurt to be swore at, yet is that really what you are hurting most about? Perhaps it is more the dismissal of your point of view that hurt. I respect Portia very much. The fact that she swore only indicates to me the strength of her feelings. Yes it is disrespectful in this case, and I think that was the idea. Is it respectful for you to continue to push an agenda of accepting child abusers to people who have clearly stated that they are not in a place to do that? Portia's first post to you was very considerate and truthful about her state of mind.
There were many people on this thread who were/are upset with you, me included. Yet you have said little to nothing to most of us. Perhaps you are focused on Portia because you really admire her courage and her understanding of her own feelings. That is just mo of course. I think that you are trying to make her bend to your will. As for her controlling this thread. Do you really think that is even possible? I don't. And I don't think she is trying to.
El wrote a kind, thoughtful post. For the record, I agree with her.
You responded:
On the other hand, it has not happened in your family yet.
Are you saying that her husband will molest her children? This idea that everyone does this has been the crux of your argument for staying with your husband. I am seriously, seriously wondering if you truly believe this. Is it because of statistics you have read? Or has someone told you this? I am very curious.
Somebody, I am going back to your post that really pushed my buttons. I hope you will induge me as I am trying to understand better. The first is in regard to this link...
http://mtoomey.com/theshamed.html
I browsed through this and I don't understand what you are trying to say with this. Can you clarify?
Being abused does not negate everyone else's feelings.
We all need our feelings acknowledged and we all need encouragement.
I think this is difficult to understand because you sound so detached. It doesn't sound personal at all. It just is hard to relate to.
I encouraged my children and focussed on them and made them my priority (and I continue to do so-but I haven't included that information and I am sorry for that). Our relationships are very much better now that all our "professional help" was dispersed with and we simply began to communicate with eachother, without interference. I love my children more than life itself and I would die for them.
I wish you would give more details. Most of your writing is your judgement of the situation. Perhaps some examples of actual events would help me and others see your point.
I taught them correctly and that is why my child "told" about this past crime, when my younger child started to near the age the older child was, when this originally happened, years ago.
I can't help asking why she didn't tell you (as oppose to your sister) aand why she didn't tell right away. For me this indicates that she did not trust you. Any thoughts?
I will not cast judgement on a person who begs for forgiveness and who takes responsibility for their behaviour and takes steps to correct it.
That sounds good to me except that in your case you are going beyond just not casting judgement. You are living with a person who, it appears, has a disease and you have not indicated exactly how he has been cured of this disease. Maybe he has...how has he done this exactly? It seems to me that if he has managed to overcome this addiction, he could help others by speaking about how he has done so.
My sister had a right to vent her feelings but no right to do so to destroy me before I was even told about this.
Since your child told your sister about this matter instead of you, I find it difficult to believe your perspective in this matter. I know many people who feel attacked by other people who are practising justice and confronting a wrongdoing. Perhaps your sister didn't handle it perfectly, but imo neither have you. I just can't understand how you have so much compassion for the man who hurt your child, yet so little for the one hurt and the woman who helped her. This part really upsets me. I feel sad that you can't understand that.
I did my very best to help my kids through this, I tried to help my sister and understand her feelings and behaviour, and I have been through hell trying to forgive my husband, and trying to gain some kind of understanding into his "sick" and beguiling behaviour. It is not something I would have ever dreamed of doing nor is it something most other people usually do. But in these circumstances, of which you do not have all the facts, I made my decision. It was not easy to stomach and I appreciate that it is very hard for you to accept or understand and that it upsets you. [/quote/
This is where I really start to get upset. I understand you feel a major burden here and yet it seems to me that you feel like you are the biggest victim in all of this. And you continually speak as if you are the one who is right and everyone else is wrong, weak, ignorant. This is how you talk about the members of your family and this is how you speak about most members of this board. That upsets me.
ree with Les that some kind of real "treatment" is necessary to correct this behaviour. There is none BECAUSE people are free to refuse it and because of that, our system allows them to go on behaving in this way.
Then why are you sure that your H won't do it again? I just don't get it.
my husband is classified as a dangerous sexual preditor because there is only one catagory of classification in this country, and by slapping my child on the butt he IS placed in the same bucket with those who have perpetrated horrific deeds upon children, because there is only one bucket-both are considered the same thing- sexual assault.
And shouldn't he be classified as a sexual predator? I really don't understand your point of view. I'm with Portia, what did he do? Really? Maybe then we can understand.
Please try to get ahold of your emotions and just hear me. I don't mean to patronize and I am sorry if I am coming across that way.
You are coming across patronizing and that is upsetting.
We, as mothers are trying to protect our children but it is not working. This is happening.
And when it happens, the mothers are getting the blame. The criminals are refusing treatment and walking away. And the victims, are not healing because our "therapists" encourage all of us to wallow in misery.
This is a huge generalization. It just serves to diminish your personal experience. Statistics be darned...I try to live in the specifics of my life and not be over concerned about what the media is reporting to me. mo
1 in 10 men have done this or are doing it. 1 in 10. I can't get these numbers out of my head. I'm not the only one who's married to these men, I'm just one who is aware of it.
How do I know my husband is telling me the truth? How do you know yours is?
OK, my first instinct here is to get quite upset at this type of reasoning (or lack of)...but I will try to approach it calmly. Perhaps since you seem to really believe that most men are dogs, you feel more secure staying in with your H cuz you know what he is capable. If you were to move on, you may find a guy that doesn't act this way, yet you would always be questioning and perhaps you may not want this sort of uncertainty. I used to feel that way. Of course, we never really know what another person is capable of, but if we pay attention to what they are doing and saying we get a pretty good idea. And of course it never hurts to check up on them once in awhile. :wink: Your H has already given you a strong indication of what he is capable of (mo).
I want to protect children from this.
Somebody, perhaps you have decided to be your H's watchdog? Perhaps that is why you are here at this board. If so, imo you don't have to do that. You can let it go and take care of yourself. I may be way off base here.
I will f off now.
OK this is where you really got me. This line makes it sound like you think this is all a joke and you seem to be taunting Portia. And now that you are beating up Portia about swearing, it further beguiles me because you mirrored the word right back to her.
Somebody, sorry this is so long. My intent here is to help you understand my point of view and nothing else. I don't think you are evil and I don't wish you any harm.
Sincerely,
Lisa
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I don't think anybody is getting that this woman's point of view seems to be intractable. She has more ammo than all of us combined. That indicates to me that she has a problem....yes, I am talking in the third person. It's sort of rude. But I'm getting a bit tired of the people here with prissy sensibilities. Swearing is now worse than staying with a child molestor? Sorry, I don't see how that squares up.
I do have a hard time with Somebody coming on and whining about her big bad sister when she is still with the man that compromised her daughter. We are not all a bunch of zany weirdos here. I think most people with a conscience will be alarmed at her insistance that we focus on the sister rather than her. In fact, it seems downright delusional that she would try to force a bunch of strangers to see her point of view. Why is she so invested in us seeing her point of view.
Frankly, I don't and won't see her point of view. Unlike the last poster, I think we need to see the evil. You can't fight something you can't name. And to me, being more upset with her sister than her husband is tantamount to evil, even though that seems like a word a lot of people don't feel comfortable embracing.
Somebody knows in the real world that people are going to shun her. They already have. Why do we have to try to understand. This is a board about healing, not a board to force a point of view...a rather tiresome point of view if you ask me :)
I am getting rather alarmed at certain persons concentrating more on vocabulary and so called respectful communication when there is a lot of passive agressive (patronising) communication coming from the "keepers of the right way to speak" circle. Please get over yourselves. I'm not trying to be flip here, but I am getting annoyed. People who take take everything so personally are rendering everyone else voiceless imo.
Rachel
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Hi Somebody, I read your very long post with interest. I can see you've spent a lot of time into trying to present a 'scenario change' to change the focus of the thread away from you and your H, which I agree needs changing. You seem to want it to focus on correcting Portia. I think that's your choice and voice. But I also have choice and voice. And I just wanted to comment on a couple of your comments, if that's okay.
Somebody said
Please do not be insulted.
But surely that's the person's choice. Can you allow them choice and free will please? :D
Then Somebody said Swearing is verbal abuse.
And the same goes for sexual abuse of children, or don't you think so? It is sexual abuse. But that doesn't seem to concern you as much as being sworn at. Let's not mince words. Your H is a predator of your children, while he was sleeping with you. And you've sided with him. Your sister realises this.
Then Somebody said You cannot redefine verbal abuse to suit your needs.
Then by the same standard, you cannnot redifine sexual abuse of children to suit your needs.
Then Somebody said If swearing were not deemed so, then we would all be happily raising our kids by constantly swearing at them, and our teachers would have gone to great ends to teach us the most descriptive ways of using and the correct way of spelling -our swear words. (Can you picture that? What fun that would be eh?).
Likewise, if sexual abuse of children were not deemed inappropriate, then we'd all happily raise our children to be constantly sexually abused, and our teachers would go to great ends to teach children how to have appropriate sex with their step-fathers, and how to make sure that when they do, that their little vaginas don't tear all the way up to their rectums, so as to need stitches. Or as in little boys, that their anuses don't split so wide open, needing major surgery. Teachers would tell them how to do it so as not to cause injury. Can you picture that?What fun would that be eh?
The type of injury, just physical injury alone that no doubt your H would have happily inflicted if your child had agreed? Or did he just want a head job? In which case that's okay then, and I have no problem that. NOT! :evil:
Obviously swearing is the real issue here folks.
Somebody, I posted this. And I am not Portia. You continually repeat that you don't want this thread to be about your children, or your H or your sister. That you want this thread to be about your feelings.
Yet when you first came here you wanted it to be about your evil sister and your daughter.
I don't expect you'll tell us what his offer was. Offer. Very strange word to use. Sounds like he wantd to do something to her. What? But as you say, no matter.
Your thread may about your feelings, to you. But if I want to read it, it'll be about what I think and what strikes me as the real issue to me. You can't make that decision for me. And tell me what I'm to focus on.
Somebody says, "Oh well, I told you about my H and his offer, but let's forget all about that now, and talk about me and my feelings.."
No, sorry Somebody. Can't oblige you there.
When I go back to your initial posts and all those initial repsonses I can see why people got so hot. You were in denial and frustrating the heck out of anybody who challenged your value judgments. You still are. That's okay, that's your right.
You're wrong about others trying to control you and 'your' thread. That's a joke, isn't it? This is public anonymous internet forum. You posted a 'topic' for discussion. The thread is made of of all of the opinions of the contributors. That's all. You don't own the thread, only your own comments. And you can't dictate the course of the thread, or the freedom and options of people to say what they want to, once they do.
I read this topic of yours is about the sexual predator behaviour of your H, and your the child, who is the main victim. And Somebody, I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but I don't sense that you have many warm human feelings. It seems to me, in my humble opinion, that you seem to be enjoying all the attention. And you seem to me to be so cold and hardened and indifferrent.
And "NO"! Somebody, it doesn't happen to all children. And it won't happen in most families. Yes, the stats are bad. But the stats of it not happening are much higher than it happening. The majority don't do it or accept it. The majority of men wouold never do such a thing. Civilisation is still quite civilised, on the whole.
So whenever you post your cold hard stuff, because I'm free to post my opinion, I might just pop back and recall my big post.
As a reminder to myself of what the words 'dangerous sexual predator of children' really means. The words 'child abuse' seem to be flippantly thrown around like 'pass the sauce' sometimes.
A small child being sexually abused, shocking! Some guy wanting to do it!Shocking!
One friend of mine as a child 1960, being abused so hard by perpretrator step-father, she collapsed in his arms like a rag doll, passed out, and he kept going, kept abusing her, from behind, her internals and her back passage were ripped wide open. And when he'd finished, he put her back into her little bed, and then he unlocked her bedroom window, and he tried to make it look like someone else had entered the house and done it to her. She was dying in her bed in the morning when her mother found her. She didn't die, thankfully. And yes, eventually the step-father was finally nailed/caught.
And she's a real live person. A friend of mine. But dreadfully scarred emotionally and physically. I've heard her story more times than I care to remember. And there are others too I can post if you'd like. But Somebody, anyone who has the type of sickness inside themselves to even consider doing anything to a child, your posting about it is going to cause some very powerful emotional reactions from people here. Why did does that surprise you?
But I think you knew that would happen, and many here would react strongly, when you came here with your topic. :wink: Didn't you? That's what I think now after reading your twisiting and mind games with Portia. That made me feel sick to read. You've found a environment where you've managed to manipulate it to make Portia the perpetrator, and you have become the victim.
I really do think you thought you could manipulate this effect too, perfectly well. That's why you didn't go into the detail, isn't it?
My personal opinion, for what it's worth folks. I think this is a game Somebody is playing on this board with all of our heads and hearts.
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delete
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Just stop feeding the Trolls and they will go away.
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Dear Learning:
This is not about swearing. It's about respect.
The problem of child sexual abuse isssss a problem about respect.
This is not about my story or my feelings- it's about respect for my right to tell my story and express my feelings.
This is not about my opinion. It's about my right to express it and the respect I expect and that I have blatently, loudly, utterly proclaimed that all people have a right to demand.
People are upset with me? I've said little or nothing to the one's who have tried to be kind and show respect? You're right. I have done it again. I have picked those who have shown a lack of it to respond to. Thankyou, all of you who are trying so hard to be respectful. I can't respond to however many people are on this board because I don't have that much time to spend here typing and because I can already see that you do not need to have this important thing pointed out to you or because I am having a hard time thinking of a tactful way to do so. Tact is out.
I do appologize and I do mean it.
Batters up!
The war is over!
This is now like baseball.
No wonder Ltl got off this merrygoround so quick.
Most people would.
I have had the courage not to get off because I really think it is important for me to let ya'll see this very, very, simple, important thing.
Respect.
I'm not upset with P. I just noticed that she was behaving with a lack of respect, as were others, and I took particular offence to her swearing. No worries. Take offence to what you find offensive and please respect my right to do so also.
Do I think it is possible to control a thread? Take a look around? Seems to me there is a big effort to do so. And that there has been a huge attempt to justify a lack of respect, while doing so.
I'm not pushing an agenda of accepting child abusers.
I'm saying, all people deserve the basic human right of respect.
I'm saying- that I have put great thought into this problem because I have a severe aversion to the behaviour (child sexual abuse) and because it happened in my family and because I looked for information which might solve the problem (because I believe in trying to solve problems, rather than covering up symptoms).
I see the problem as a lack of respect for the person - the child.
I wonder, in a big, big way, if solving the problem may actually come about in some respectful manner? I think this may be so.
I know---who wants to show respect to a person who abuses a child, in any way?
None of us "want" to. It's against our better judgement. It's against everything they have shown by their behaviour.
The bottom line is----how can we teach them to respect if we do not show them the least bit? That's what I ask myself, not because I am evil, not because I "can't empathize" with my own child, or with you, or with others here, not because I am trying to patronize, not because I am this or that or in denial or whatever else members of this board have proclaimed me to be, no I didn't do this first, it wasn't my priority, but because I would like to see an improvement in the stats, once I bothered to look for them.
Because I would really like to see this behaviour stopped before it begins.
This is not a place to voice?
Round and round we go.
People here are upset with me?
Nope. They're upset with my opinion and they believe it is ok to show me no respect for voicing it or my feelings or anything else because they have deemed me "a coddler". Made that assumption. Seriously incorrect one at that.
I'm trying to "bend" anybody to my will.
Nope.
I'm voicing my stuff here.
But there is a lack of respect for my right to do so.
"bend" to my "will". I think the thing here is quite reversed. I haven't bent to anyone else's will, have I?
El did write a kind thoughtful post- but she's missing the info re respect as you are. I'm sorry, Learning. I really do not mean to show you any disrespect by pointing this out. But the crux of this is not an argument about whether or not I'm right or wrong- but about my right to decide what to do in regards to my family without being dammed-respect for those boundaries-respect for me as a person- respect for my ability to make a sound decision-respect for a whole lot of stuff.
Im' not Karla Holmolka either. But there are those who may assume thus.
Because they do not respect my right to my voice and assume that I must be daft or evil or whatnot. I don't know how to make this any clearer. I pointed out the stats to inform. They are not an "excuse" for my decision.
Ya'll deny 'em if you want to. It doesn't matter. You might be right. They may be inccorect. Maybe not. I don't like those stats. That's all I mean to say. I'd like to see them lower. Much, much, much lower.
I knew when I accidently used the word "yet" at the end of the sentence in regards to El's not having to make that decision, I would have to appologize. I'm sorry. I said that incorrectly. I didn't realize it until afterward. I had to get on with living. I let it go. I'm dealing with it now. I meant- she has not dealt with that in her life (and El, I hope with all of my heart you never have to, and the chances are very good that you won't ever have to) and I do appologize for that imperfect statement.
I'm sorry again. I've forgotten who's said what now. I'm trying to get this down as best I can. I will do my best to address what ya'll are saying (I love that southern slang-no I'm not joking inappropriately, I'm trying to ease the tension here.) I will try to speak in a respectful manner. I've been trying to do that. If I appear not to show you that respect, it may be because I am making a mistake. Please forgive me. I'm doing the best that I can. This is really a challenge, to say the least. However, a challenge I have decided to take on because I really do believe in basic human rights- in the basic human right we all have to respect which begins the day we are born.
Learning, I don't think you're evil either and I don't wish you any harm.
Rachael- my point of view is intractable? Yep. Respect.
I have a problem understanding and or accepting the way people show a lack of respect to eachother. Swearing is a lack of respect. Sexual abuse is a lack of respect. These are two very different problems with a common base. A lack of respect.
I'm staying with a child abuser shows what? There is no respect for my decision or my right to make my decision. Twist. Turn. Label. Diagnose. "most men are dogs"? Respect.
What my "h is capable of"? You're way off base if you think you can decide that. Respect.
This is all a joke?
I'm beating up Portia?
I mirrored her swearing?
You're sorry you've voiced such a long post?
Round and round we go.
I won't be shamed and I'm sorry if the link I posted about shame is confusing and I won't accept what is being dished out onto my shoulders.
I'm finished clarifying. The war is over.
It's slam dunk time.
I'm "detached". I keep "twisting". People want more about the "actual events" now. Detached where exactly? Respect.
My words are twisting? This is a very clear n trait that I have definately observed, not just here. Respect.
Respect.
Want more info? To twist and turn and label and dish shame out about and otherwise thoroughly pollute?
Respect.
Why didn't my daughter tell me or tell me right away.
There are many possible reasons.
You have only suggested the negative ones.
I "have not indicated" the cure of "the disease", "the addiction".
Your generalization. An assumption. Incorrect.
Now you want him here to slice up?
Respect.
You don't "believe" me.
Yes. I got that feeling right away. No respect.
You've decided that I have "so little compassion" and for whom?
This is upsetting and it makes you feel sad?
Welcome to the club.
I'm sad and upset that this bunch has so little respect.
You've decided that I "feel like the biggest victim in all of this"?
and that I think all other opinions are "wrong, weak, ignorant"?
This isn't a generalization?
This is a fact?
You can be sure of this?
You know what I'm thinking?
Respect.
I keep "continually" twisting?
I've already answered some of your questions but you don't get it.
How can I be sure? How can YOU?
You need the nittygritty details so you can do what?
Respect.
I have appologized for patronizing and I notice, I'm the only one taking responsibility here for my own behaviour.
Please, focus on whatever you want to (as if I can stop you from doing that?)
I demand respect.
Are you arguing this or not?
Do all people deserve respect or not?
Do we want to teach this in the biggest way possible or not?
What example do we most want to present?
The next person may argue this basic human right.
I am getting an idea of how Jesus must have felt.
Even if you don't believe in the guy, wow, he had opinions and tried to voice them too and they crucified him, as the story goes.
Poor guy. How dare he hang around with all the sinners of the world!
What a crime he committed.
Respect.
"See the evil"? I'm upset "more" with my n-sis?
Nice incorrect assuming.
I'm lately, of late, after all this time, dealing with those feelings, came here to express them, etc....whoops. Explaining again. Defending my statements.
Respect.
"Tatamount to evil"? Respect.
What upsets me are statements like that one because they show such a blatent lack of respect. I am indeed sickened.
"a lot of people don't feel comfortable embracing" this?
Whew!!! I'm glad of that.
Why do you have to try to understand?
You're right!! You don't!! No one does. Let's just keep doing what we're doing then. It's working fine. You're happy with the stats or you don't believe them (deny) or whatever other excuse for ignoring them you can think up.
My point exactly. Why do we have to try to understand?
I'm trying to explain my opinion on that.
Respect.
This is not a board to "try to force a point of view"?
Then why, in the name of Holy-go-take-a-dip are you trying to force your's on me? You're opinion that I am in denial, that I have made a bad decision, that I should be ashamed, that I am evil, etc, etc, ect,
Respect!!
Guest- I can't read that light coloured type very well.
Zing. I'm dipping and diving now. Racketball. This is like racketball!
Respect.
This thread is about seeing a lack of it and I have taken control of the topic back for this very moment and put the focus back where it should have been in the first place.
There is a great lack of respect here. Make no mistake. I'm pointing this out and I'm being quite nasty about it.
"Freedom and options of people to say what they want to"?
Yep. My point exactly.
I'm standing up for that freedom and pointing out the need for that to be done with respect.
You don't "sence" my "warm feelings"?
I have been very sincere, quite frequently here.
You don't believe me.
Respect.
You think I'm "enjoying the attention" because I voiced??
I'm "cold, hardened, indifferent"?.
I really am trying so very hard to control my anger now.
I admit it.
I "can't tell" the difference between disgust and ligitimate anger?
I don't like the stats. that I've read do you?
I believe in basic human rights, do you?
I'd like it better if the stats were lower, how 'bout you?
I don't deny them, but I would surely love to disappear in that mode and then I wouldn't even think about this problem or try to understand it or have a desire to bring about "change".
You plan to "pop back in" and recall your big long post?
Keep doing that. I can't stop you. But you're missing the point about respect, about basic human rights, about control issues.
And yep. I'm pretty angry about that.
Sexual abuse is also about a control issue.
I agree the stuff about sexual abuse is "shocking"
My H is placed in the same pot as your friend's child's perpetrator.
It's abomitable (I wish I could spell) what happened to that poor child!!
I am outraged, as you are, I sence!!!
Please don't project that anger here on me or on my situation or on my opinion or on all the other issues that have been projected upon.
Please -detach--from that idea.
What I forgot to think about before posting here was the fact that I might be treated with extreme disrespect. I admitted that I was pretty stupid to do that. It was a stupid mistake, is a far more accurate statement.
Pointing out Portia's lack of respect is "manipulating"??
I know I've got everybody's words mixed up here now because as I have already stated, I'm pretty pc illiterate and I can't keep referring back to all of the posts here and get everything just perfect for ya'll.
Please, stop judging me.
Please have some respect.
Disrespectful, ignorant, demeaning, pointless, nasty name that---Troll.
I did lose my temper there. I do appologize. I think it's wrong to bash people for their opinions and then to bash them for standing up for their opinions and then to bash them for anything that comes to mind or is assumed and with such a great, huge, large, big amount of disrespect.
I do not mean to behave in such a way to you.
I'm so sorry to have felt the need to make this real clear.
I am indeed, very sincere and I'm not going to say anything else about the way some here have come across to me as because I am trying to understand and empathize with you while at the same time, point out your lack of doing so with me.
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Portia, I did not post to your ramble thread, recently or at all.
someone just posted there for me.
someone who I suspect has an even bigger problem than just a lack of respect.
I'm sorry for that Portia and I'm sorry to you, whoever you are, that you feel the need to post for other people but don't have the guts to post for yourself and take your own name and say what you think and stand up for it!!
Now this, is extensively emotional.
I admit it.
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Somebody, *You* are the one disrespecting everyone here. You are trying to force your beliefs down our throats. We simply do NOT condone child abuse and you cannot muzzle *our* opinions on the subject. You have come here asking for help. We disagreed that your sister was the one with the problem. I don't think that anybody here believes that you are being kind or *RESPECTFUL* to your daughter or you H by staying with him. You are not being kind or *respectful* by ENABLING his behavior. Your H has NO CHANCE to heal at your house with your daughters present. If you truly want his healing as you say, you will leave him thereby giving him the only opportunity he will have to see his behavior clearly, unobscured by the desire he has for your daughter.
Your statistics, BTW, apply to sexual abuse of *any kind* by *anyone*. I have been sexually harassed at work and being grabbed at on the train even people going overboard on dates after I've said "no" to them. All of these people would fit into those statistics. The percentage of *fathers* who molest their *daughters* is **much** less than 1 in 10 yet the emotional wounds last forever with *this type* of abuse. And what is the point of giving statistics anyways, Somebody? Because if lots of people do it than we're all ignorant to think that it can't happen to us? Or that it needs to be dealt with? Well, you for one will not help those statistics one iota with your enabling of it.
am getting an idea of how Jesus must have felt.
Jesus would **never ** have harmed a child as you (yes *you* directly, Somebody) have done. He would have protected and nurtured that child that was being abused. Lovingly he would have sent your H *out of the house* for good, Somebody.
Slam me all you want, Somebody, I fully expect it as you have done all of us who disagree with you. We will not be force fed by you, Somebody. You truly need help. You have a real problem seeing what others can see here and yet you will deny this tooth and nail. You seem to be hell bent on us seeing you as empathetic yet fail the basics in this dept, IMO.
Sorry everyone for getting so bent out of shape over this. I know that it's probably better to just not respond but I am so upset that Somebody can do this to her child. It's hard to just stand by and not be able to do anything as her daughter's life is being damaged.
-El
-El
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El
I did as you say. I sent my husband away and I nutured her.
She is an adult now and does not live with me.
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Yes Pheonix, and if other's inappropriately, without due cause, stamp all over you in a disrespectful manner, you have a perfect right to let them know that all people deserve to be treated with respect.
Demand, as I said, was really pushing it, but it seemed necessary to make this whole thing clear. Maybe I was wrong to use that word.
You deserve respect Pheonix, just like everyone else.
Is this a basic human right? Are you telling me to shut up?
to go away?
Maybe not.
Maybe, I'm mistaken there.
Is this a basic human right?
Do ya'll believe in it or not?
I'm not pushing anything, I'm asking.
The respect we are all due was stomped on. You say I need to earn it ?What? Must I say the correct things to get respect?
I don't understand.
Is this a basic human right?
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I'm going to let that sit.
It's a serious question.
Hugs to you all, sincerely, I mean it.
I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone's feelings.
Not my intention.
Hope you all have a great rest of this day!
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Good Morning Pheonix and everyone:
I'm so glad to hear you say, Pheonix, that "everyone deserves respect".
I was getting a bit worried about that but now I feel so relieved to find that we have the same basic idea about respect being due to all people. I'm hoping you and I are not the only ones who believe this. I doubt very much that we are the only ones.
I totally agree with your viewpoint on self-respect but the point I am trying to make is about respect for other people. The lack of it that people who behave badly seem to be displaying. The need to make them aware of that and the need to do that by at least, showing them a bit of respect.
I am having a hard time with what you have said: "not everyone is capable of giving or having it (re respect) for others".
In other words, some people can't have respect for others.
They can't.
They have a problem with giving or having respect for others that can't be solved.
Cannot be solved.
They are incapable of changing their attitude or behaviour in order to give or have respect for others.
I find that idea incorrect, in my view. I understand and believe that we are all the only ones who can control our attitude, our behaviour, our thinking. No one else can do that for us. No one can force a certain attitude in us or force change in our behaviour or thinking.
In the long run, if we decide to have a certain attitude, to think a certain thing or way, to behave in a certain way, we will always find ways to do what we decide.
In the same sence, if we decide to change our attitude, to think differently in order to bring about a new attitude, if we decide to behave differently, we will do exactly that.
I don't think it's a question of being capable of having respect.
I think it's a matter of deciding to.
Of having a desire to.
Of making a committment to change.
Anyhow, yes. You did stand up for me and I thankyou Pheonix. This was getting pretty darn hostile and for no real good reason except that tempers do flare, especially in consideration of the deplorability of this terrible problem (this horrid behaviour that my h and so many others are displaying or haved displayed or are yet to display).
I must get off here now. I have been away from my pc over the weekend and have not had time this a.m. to so much as look at anything else, other than your comment above this of mine. I hope to hear this discussion continuing because it is so very important that it does continue.
If we just keep doing what we're doing and we don't try to do something different, I just have this awful feeling that things aren't going to get any better because from what I have seen, things are indeed getting much worse (whether we consider stats or whatnot). The fact is, this behaviour continues.
I would like to see it stopped before it begins.
I really would.
I would like to see many less people trying to heal from the results of this behaviour.
Hope you all have a wonderful day with a great bit of healing.
Really big, huge, large, giant hug. No kidding about that at all.
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Somebody = I have read classic N traits in your posts and in your way of posting.
I am experiencing your behavior toward Portia and others, including those who have tried to come to your defense, as classic N/abusive/crazymaking.
I saw your sickness in your treatment of Portia, even more so than in the way you have been justifying your decision to stay with someone who abused your own child.
My chest hurts.
I have rarely found someone for whom I have so little empathy/sympathy as I have for you - at least at this point in the thread, (my stuff).
I felt a lot of rage building as I read this thread, (again, that's on me).
Why I didn't stop I don't know.
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I am a registered member, and I mean't to log in as such. The above post is mine. Unless it shows my logged in name as shown on this message, no other posts are mine.
Thanks.
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somebody and peanut is all portia.peanut keep talking of somebodies letting the husband abuse the child.this is also exactly what portia keep talking about in so many pasts emails too.
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:cry:
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Well I feel stronger now so I have this to say.
I was so very disappointed and that's why I cried. I was glad, at first because I thought we had finally found a bit of common ground. The idea that all people deserve respect. Surely this is the least.
Then, another fastball.
I forgot to duck.
I'm sorry that you think I have not self-respect, Pheonix. That is another inaccuracy that must be corrected. If I had no self-respect, I would have sworn right back at Portia and I wouldn't know enough to demand to be treated respectfully.
I'm so sorry to hear you say that and the stuff about humility too. Maybe a good closet cleaning would be in order, at your house. I don't mean to hurt you by saying such a thing. It's just that I feel obligated, as a good person, to inform you that that comment was uncalled for and not at all something needed or in the least helpful.
My nose is neither up nor down. I would look you straight in the eye, if I had the opportunity, and ask you why it seems so important to you to snub yours at me, after I made such a kind comment prior. That's for me to figger out or forget.
Nevermind. It doesn't matter.
I take offense to your words and so that's that. I don't expect you to fix that anytime soon. I'm sure you have bigger fish to fry in your attempts with the de-infestation.
Have yourself a really good evening anyway. Maybe in our next life, we'll do better.
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Pheonix, the blame is exactly what I am trying to shift because I am not going to take blame for acting incorrectly when I haven't done so, or for anyone else who has.
I have a problem with that. I won't accept guilt that I don't deserve or shame that does not belong to me and I won't take responsibility for other people's actions. The ideas that have been put forth here aim directly at trying to accomplish these exact things and I'm sorry to be so darn obstinate about not accepting such treatment but I must.
Because I have a strong sence of self-respect and to bring awareness up front.
What I hear in your post is anger. I hear a lot of it on this board. In many posts. People are just so very angry. We have a right to this feeling but we do not have a right to direct it where it doesn't belong or onto those who do not deserve it.
I would like to be your friend too, Pheonix, but that can't happen until you stop being angry with me.
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Woops again. I correct myself.
Not stop being angry with me. Stop treating me so angrily.
Stop displacing your anger. Stop yourself from thinking angry thoughts about me that I do not deserve. Etc. These are your choices.
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Stop treating me so angrily.
Stop displacing your anger. Stop yourself from thinking angry thoughts about me that I do not deserve. Etc. These are your choices.
Somebody,
You make these commands and yet you say they are choices.
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ALL POSTS DELETED BY PHOENIX IN THIS THREAD.
I'M NOT WASTING MY WORDS.
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phoenix wrote:
My purpose for not wanting to continue discussing this with you is that I don't care to engage in circular conversations. You seem uninterested in looking further into my - and others- previous posts.
You are consumate at shifting blame.
I wish you no harm. There is just nothing further to say .
Phoenix
Reposted by Phoenix [/b][/size]
!!!!!!!amen!!!!!! it's all circular and so much is being posted by same person with different user name.so easy to see patterns both in attitude and writing.me too I am not going to involve anymore.she only keeps trying to draw peoples into a never ending web of frustrate hurt and anger that is her own and goes very very deep in her.she could go on for lifetime because it is what feeds something in her right now.instead of to deal with fears and hurts in the good way she uses manipulations and control and anger, and the circular way of relating is the only way that keeps drawing peoples to back to her, to feel her need to relate this way.
if we all go complete quiet on this topic she will have no more power.no more circles.
me too I don't wish bad things for her but for me its also enough waste and time for square box with corners that end things!
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No chance to post until now.
I stated: "I'd like to be your friend too, Pheonix, but that can't happen until you stop being angry with me" and then I posted the "woops..." post to correct this statement by saying until you "stop...etc." I guess I thought you would understand that I was simply adding to that sentence. My mistake, sorry about that.
These are indeed Pheonix's choices. I cannot make them for him/her. I am not making a demand but rather a suggestion and actually an warm invitation to Pheonix, who seems really angry with me. Perhaps, because of past experiences, this type of response is so foreign to Pheonix, this not reacting to his/her anger, but rather offering my hand, is confusing. Maybe I'm completely off there. I'm sorry Pheonix, I meant only to offer an opportunity.
I'm finding a great circle of angry comments. That's for sure. I do understand. We have all been abused and anger is one of the strongest feelings produced. I no longer feel any anger toward many who have abused me in the past. I do take responsibility for expressing my anger toward my n-sis, in my original post. I feel much more for her than just anger though. I'm having a hard time dealing with those feelings because her behaviours continue. She's definately not the only one I feel anger toward sometimes.
I read on a thread on this board that someone's n-family member sent someone a card (can't remember the person's name- sorry). The person was upset, and I think angry, about the card (I think it was an anniversary card) and the idea gathered was that the n-family member sent the card to appease their own guilt (the n-family member's guilt).
My immediate thought was- is that not a good thing? Is it possible the n-family member sent the card to prevent hurt which would then make the n-family feel guilty? Can this be taken as a sign that the n-family, in this one instance, is trying to prevent hurt and do something nice (for a change?). Does it show that the n-family member does feel guilty about stuff sometimes. Surely every action an n makes isn't preplanned and meant to inject negativity? Could many of the negative n behaviours be habit?? And could this show an attempt to act differently??
I didn't post my thoughts/questions because I predicted the response might be that I am only empathizing with the n-family member.
But indeed, my point in posting would have been to ask us to consider other possible motives of this person's behaviour and to try to help someone (who's name I can't remember just now) to refrain from going into anger-mode, when there may have been a chance to see the behaviour as positive. I didn't want to open a new can of worms on some other thread.
Because motive is deemed known before many questions are asked, it is like walking on eggshells here. I don't mean to alarm anyone by saying that.
I can easily put all the angry things said to me here on this thread, in the waste disposal basket upstairs and move forward. I am quite willing to do that for a couple of reasons.
1. Because I know we all do stuff sometimes that isn't exactly perfect.
and
2. Because there is still an opportunity for us to communicate with eachother and learn from eachother.
I hope you are all having a lovely evening anyway. I know life can be pretty rough but it is short. My best offer is on the table.
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:wink:
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:D :wink:
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Pheonix, are you thinking that Portia wrote the above post?
That is not true. I have never been to this board before (me, Somebody).
Please believe that.
I don't know what else to say.
I am sorry, Portia, that you are being blamed for something you didn't do (and I'm not sure what that is anyhow).
Pheonix, I could have left out the info in my first post but I didn't do that because I wanted to just be honest. I did not start this thread to create chaos. This really happened in my family and I am a real person. I just needed to speak anonamously (I know I spelled that wrong) and that is all. I felt voiceless or what I understood that to mean.
Please believe me.
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Awww well. At least these outbursts are not having the same effect as previously. That's a big improvement.
People are really quite interesting. I agree with Portia on that. I do feel compassion for those who are suffering such a lack of trust that they are unable to believe in small bits of kindness. There is no reason for Pheonix to trust me and I understand that too. The only reason I can think of is the fact that I posted the truth (not all of the details) of what happened in my family to begin with. Rather than this being seen as such, it seems to have caused the most upset.
I have a belief that most people are good and trying to behave well.
Even though I grew up in a "house of horrors", I somehow managed to keep this belief alive within my being. I still believe it. That's my choice.
I have met many, many people in my life. So many of them have been a blessing and I have had many deep, long lasting friendships with some of them. I have some very long-time friends that know nothing of what I've told here. There's a good chance they would understand and be supportive, after knowing me and the kind of person I am for so many years. I just haven't said anything, mainly because I just want to go out for a bit of socialization once in awhile with people who have no knowledge of what happened in my family, and partly because I don't want to face the possibility of being rejected. I really enjoy those friends.
I am very thankful for these things and more.
What I find so difficult to understand about n-ish behaviour is the extreme rampaging that occurs when things just don't go their way. It's a bit like a spoiled child (or what people call- a spoiled child) isn't it?
It's as if it can't be prevented. I know very little about n-ism and there is a lot to learn. It's really hard for me to accept that they "can't" change. That's a tough one for me because of what I have learned of behaviour, in general, and found to be of use in my life.
Sweet dreams everyone. I hope tomorrow is a great day for you all.
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Good Morning!
I heard something I thought was rather nice on the radio this morning:
"You're not getting older, you just need re-potting".
What a wonderful thought, really. Yes, we just need fresh soil, extra room to spread our roots, as we age. So our roots can get thicker and reach down deeper, hold us steady, get the H2O we need. That refreshment will likely liven us up and green up our leaves a bit. It would help us be the most solid people we could be and grow a little, on our way out.
A person I spoke with yesterday used to work as a lumber-jack where the huge, massive, 6 foot diameter trees grow, on this continent (spelling?). He was very interesting to speak with. I had no idea that such trees still exhist on this piece of earth. Trees such as those used by different tribes to carve, or burn out, into cannoes. I asked him how long it would take for a tree to get that big? "Oh, probably 2, maybe 300 years", he said.
Wow!!! That's a long time. Think of the length and strength of those roots!! Imagine standing beside such a tree. How very awesome that must be! "How much would it cost to buy such a tree?". He couldn't say but it would be a lot of money. Yes, such a tree is of great value. Such a shame that we are not allowing the trees we now plant to grow to such a size. This just isn't feasible to supply society's lumber needs.
Still, the idea of re-potting ourselves as we age, sounds like a step in the right direction.
Enjoy your day people.
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I will put any comment that may be taken the wrong way here (when I am lucky enough to recognize that it might and otherwise, if I miss doing that, I appologize in advance for not becoming aware of it).
I just read P's post to CJ (just looking at a few posts on the board and came across it). I felt so very sad for you P when I read what you said about not feeling respected at home and about you only feeling a biological connection to your mother.
That bites P. That is so hurtful to you and it's no wonder you don't trust "love" or that you suspect something underhanded when people offer you what you may interpret as some kind of false love (if that sentence makes any sence).
I'm not trying to center out anyone. This is probably something (I would bet) that many people here are dealing with. Not being respected at home. No real connection to their mother. These things hurt.
I am sorry for that hurt and I am so sorry that any who have been treated in this way are still suffering from it. I managed to love my mother even though she did behave very badly, some of the time. I think my sis hated my mother. Never really felt connected to her and felt that same lack of respect as a child (not that I didn't feel it- I just ignored it). She lived there a lot longer than I did.
It's not that I've never understood these things before. It's just that I don't know what to do to help. How to help her? I just took her bs for years and years and years and tried to be patient and probably said the wrong things sometimes. I knew she had a big problem telling the truth and she even confided in me that she "can't" control it. I didn't know what to say. I told her I might not be the best therapist and that it would help her the most to find a someone to speak with who was knowledgable in dealing with abuse issues etc. She never did that, as far as I know.
I never confronted her about anything until a short while back and then................holy macaroni!!! What a tantrum!
What a freak out!! That's when her real, total and completely demented behaviour accelerated. How dare I stand up to her! How dare I refuse her demands! I "owed" her so much! (?????) She ranted and raved and flipped all around and I just kept thinking: "I wish you would cool it".
I feel real serious anger toward her sometimes but then, I feel guilty for feeling that anger. Then I feel sadness for a poor, lost soul who never believed her mother loved her and couldn't see that her mother was just "sick" from being tortured. That's certainly not my sis's fault, that she couldn't see this. Or maybe she could see it but her hate was just so solidified, she thought it could never be purged. Still "can't" be. I don't know.
I don't know about other people's mothers but I saw what mine went through and it was truly hell. For some strange reason I knew this from a small child. I used to pray:
"Dear God. Please help my dad to behave better".
That might sound pretty sad but really, when I think about it, I just feel satisfied that I somehow did the right thing by not hating my mother and by not losing hope in the possiblity that my father could behave better.
I would feel angry towards them both sometimes, but I always managed to have that compassion in the end.
My request was a bit off. God doesn't control our behaviour. We do.
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Hi Somebody. Thank you for saying you felt sad for me. Can I clarify what I meant about the love part? The special connection she feels, I think, is biological. Or maybe it isn't at all. It’s probably mixed up with her past, her image of herself, because I think she doesn’t really see us as separate people. She thinks I think the same way as her, that I’ll make the same ‘mistakes’ in my life etc etc. She doesn’t try to understand any part of who I am. I guess she ‘can’t’. Whether that personality disordered ‘can’t’ is out of choice on her part, or because her brain is wired that way and the neural connections aren’t there – I don’t know. Her lack of empathy, her lack of any interest even in me, is quite incredible, to me.
But that’s her feeling towards me, not my feelings towards her. Children love unconditionally for their own survival, don’t they? Can I love her unconditionally as an adult now, seeing her for who she really is? As a victim, a human? I don’t know yet. I don’t have enough information. I thought the other night about writing a two-column list: things he said or did that were good, things she said or did that were good. By ‘good’ I mean perceived as good by me, then or now. I found things for him, I’m struggling for her. I’ll keep trying.
I don’t believe that anyone is born evil. But I believe that people do make choices, if they’re not mentally incapable of making choices. And therein lies another question. Without more information, I guess I have ‘intention’ to go on. And I need to think about a whole lot more. I don’t know what I feel towards her. I feel sad for her. I wish she could be happier, more content than she appears to be. I don’t know, she’s my mother, I feel a lot more than a biological connection, but I feel it’s important to keep those feelings inside me, own them, and not attribute them to her feelings for me. I guess love comes with understanding. I will try to understand more. But doing it hurts, and that’s okay.
I do trust love. I trust CG. She is my Board friend, whatever I have said to the contrary before. I am wary of people and I have buttons. A certain level of healthy scepticism is okay too I think. I’m just learning to express things right now. P
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I see what you're saying P and you're doing a good job of it.
It only shows how easy it is to misinterpret words, doesn't it?
(my misinterpretation, I mean).
To me, if a person can think, then they are "capable" of making choices.
Even those with very little brain function, "can" make their wants and needs known, by various ways of communicating, and are thus trying to show the choice they have--to have that need met. I have cared for some with little function and seen this to be true.
Your mom, has not given you the correct messages, used the right words, done the things you needed to help you feel her love. Could she indeed love you but be unskilled, unlearned, not aware-- in displaying and communicating that love? Doesn't know how because she never learned?
Could she have the "fear" that you will repeat the mistakes she made in her life, but have no knowledge of that fear, no awareness of what she is doing because of that fear? Could her lack of interest in you be due to her complete unhappiness in herself and her feelings of total loss of how to fix that, and could she not even realize that she is not interested in you because of her own "mess"?
The thing about the word "victim" to me is that it implies we have no control over events. Does she even realize that she does have control over her own thinking and that she could make changes and decisions to improve herself, if she made up her mind to?
I am just stuck in the idea that we do have a lot more control than we give ourselves credit for, in many cases but ofcourse, not all.
I'm glad to hear you say that children love their parents unconditionally (and I wonder how easy is it for you to say - I love her)? Maybe it's really easy, I don't know how you really feel or if you express that to her.
Loving her doesn't mean accepting her inappropriate behaviour.
It just means, as you say, you have understanding and hopefully, compassion for her, that your love is unconditional from you to her.
That you love her, regardless of how she behaved. Not that you liked the way she behaved.
She is just a person, P. She probably behaved very badly in many ways toward you too and I'm not, in any way, minimizing that. But her behaviour may be a symptom, not necessarily, what's in her heart.
I hope I have not offended you in any way by relaying my thoughts on this. I certainly do not have that intention.
Hope your day is a great one! I better get cracking!!!
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The decription of events in your life is very powerful and moving. The events would overwhelm the staunchest person. You have shown amazing loyalty to everyone involved inspite of their raging and grief stricken behaviour.
I work with sexually abused children quite often ( for many years) and I have seen over and over again that the child who is abused does not want to lose the abusive parent forever or cause the family to break up but instead wants the abuse to stop. They usually feel bad about themselves rather that blaming the offender.
Finding out about sexual abuse is like dropping a bomb in a family and it takes years for it to be worked through. Have their been any family sessions where the underlying issues can be looked at?
One thing for sure is that these problems could be helped by a very good therapist who understands group issues and process. Trying to fix this family yourself is impossible. This is too big a job.
Take care of yourself and put the focus of healing on yourself.This chaotic nightmare is not your fault and you need to let the other grownups find their own way. You aren't to blame for all of their reactions.
You sound as if you have remained soft and receptive and willing to find solutions. It will take awhile before anyone else can be there with you. The story isn't over yet. Meanwhile take care of yourself and focus on your own healing.
love
b.
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Hi Bevy--
You may not have realized that you were responding to a thread from 2004...?
Hopalong