Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anastasia on February 21, 2008, 08:50:25 AM
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When I was about 12--seeing that both parents were so abusive, and their view of humanity so skewed (as in: "you can't trust people" and "people are no good"), did you start questioning your parents' judgments and/or sanity? I did in 6th grade, and I am wondering if I am alone here in thinking that my Nparent (along with her bi-polar and totally crazy husband) was somewhat crazy or, at the very least, didn't think straight at all.
That's not saying that it took more years for me to quit wanting Nparent's love (fat chance) or approval (fat chance). Just that I realized "something" seriously was wrong with Nparent's judgments.
Anyone else here realize that early on? And how old were YOU when you started noticing that Nparent wasn't like other parents?
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Anastasia,
I always assumed there was something wrong with ME. It wasn't until about a year and a half ago that I saw that the problem was in them - not in me. I was not what they made me out to be, and the world was not the nasty place they described.
I am 38... so it took me LOTS longer than you to figure it out.
But I am happy to be where I am and to continue becoming the kind of person I truly want to be.
Love, Beth
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Like Beth, I always thought there was something wrong with me, that I was the strange one. I didn't really realize my family was abnormal until I was in college. Until then, I didn't really get the opportunity to interact with other parents. And really, it wasn't until I had to start seeing a counselor for depression that I realized that my parents' expectations were unrealistic. I'll never forget the day I sat in the counselor's office and he said, "Do you realize how rare it is for someone to get better grades in college than in high school? Don't you think these expectations you have of yourself are a little odd?"
It was the first time anyone had ever suggested that my family wasn't doing anything good for me.
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Yea!! An oldtimer posting!! (Meaning someone who has been around a long time!!)
I never ever thought of my mom as crazy......................my whole like I felt like the one who had the problems.....
But then I realized that in a way, she is crazy. She will say one thing and then later on change what she said and deny ever saying it.
It is like situational ethics is appropriate for HER but no one else. I mean, she would expect integrity from everyone but she has no integrity.
Case in point. She got a face lift. So rather than tell our employees she would be out for a few weeks because of surgery (wouldn't even have to identify the surgery..........) she told them she would be on vacation. She made my dad stay home so no one would see him around town. Then she called into work and talked to an employee. When the employee asked her where she was she said."along about Branson way....." And out and out lie.
Then when she came back in and it was obvious to everyone that she had had a face lift and some of them came to me and told me they were angry about her lying..............her response was......"who do they think they are? I don't owe them an explanation............." Well, we own a Christian bookstore and all the products we sell pretty much say...............thou shalt not lie.....
So is that crazy? No. Maybe not. But it definitely argues the fact that she thinks the rules do not apply to her....
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Kelly . . . that sounds like something my mom would do. She's done stuff very similar to that. I don't think she's crazy, but definitely the rules don't apply.
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It happens over and over again and that is what makes ME crazy. This women floats around life in a plastic bubble.........oblivious to anyone around her....it is ALL about her!!!
But is she crazy??? I think disordered is a good word for my mom. The way she operates is just so unlike anyone I have ever met..................I honestly think she is not afraid of dying in a car accident because SHE OWNS THE ROAD!! No one would dare get in her way or crash into her...
Is it crazy to gaslight? Is it crazy to triangulate? Is it crazy to manipulate? Is it crazy to be delusional??? Is it crazy to do the same things over and over again and expect different results??? If those=craziness.............then she is crazy. And I realized it six years ago....wasted 42 years thinking I was the one.
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Anastasia,
I always assumed there was something wrong with ME. It wasn't until about a year and a half ago that I saw that the problem was in them - not in me. I was not what they made me out to be, and the world was not the nasty place they described.
I am 38... so it took me LOTS longer than you to figure it out.
But I am happy to be where I am and to continue becoming the kind of person I truly want to be.
Love, Beth
Ditto Beth - I am 37 and you said it all.
For so many years I have felt this wrongness about me that I have been trying to fix and fix and fix and excuse and excuse and apologize for and apologize for. Turns out it is only that I have been a complete sucker and defended my dad's wrongness all the way down the line. I bought his way of seeing things completely.
I have practiced huge exceptionalism on his behalf. The rules don't apply to him because he is a genius, because he is brilliant, so talented, a man, a scientist, because his wife went crazy and failed him, because he is a hard luck story, because he is a single father, because he has a serious illness. That's why he ignored me, that's why it doesn't count if he disparages or mistreats me, that's why he expects instant obediance and compliance, that's why he expects to dominate every conversation, that's why he has no interest in me as an individual except that it is irritating and mediocre to him, that's why -- all of that.
It is a huge revolution to connect the disordered concepts with the owner instead of considering that my wrongness and inadequacy is Reality and separate both the concepts and the owner from myself. Who am I??? Even when I drew the line with him a few years ago - I still basically accepted his views that I was mistreatable (and it isn't a wrong thing) and inadequate, but that I couldn't live with it - I apologetically drew a line. Anger came much later and I am still coming to grips with the scope of everything.
I still have trouble actually thinking of my dad as crazy as in wrong and out of touch with reality. I more think of him in his little bubble refusing to see, to learn, to grow, to change. He is so willful.
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When I was about 12--seeing that both parents were so abusive, and their view of humanity so skewed (as in: "you can't trust people" and "people are no good"), did you start questioning your parents' judgments and/or sanity? I did in 6th grade, and I am wondering if I am alone here in thinking that my Nparent (along with her bi-polar and totally crazy husband) was somewhat crazy or, at the very least, didn't think straight at all.
That's not saying that it took more years for me to quit wanting Nparent's love (fat chance) or approval (fat chance). Just that I realized "something" seriously was wrong with Nparent's judgments.
Anyone else here realize that early on? And how old were YOU when you started noticing that Nparent wasn't like other parents?
Self analysis of early memories is a tricky business. But it now seems to me I realized there was something wrong with my FOO at a very early age, such as 3rd grade. Somewhere along the line I believe I unconsciously adopted a "parentified role" to deal with their behavior. I have memory of many incidents that now seem to me N-ish and even crazy. In recent exploration I have been thinking a lot about what I do not remember, such as compliments, apologies, truly supportive behavior. It seems the N-ish incidents sort of stand out against a vacuum of real close relationship.
In adult life I got some shocks when I watched other parents interactions with their children and realized I never experienced such positive relationship. I didn't know such relationship was even possible, since my FOO was isolated in various ways. I just assumed everybody had to deal with the same kind of stuff as me, and if I thought otherwise I was just an ingrate. I had absorbed the conditioning that it was my fault.
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I didn't fully get it until I was 20, and my mother told me a young friend had drowned.
I was stunned, beginning to grieve.
And Mom said in a perky voice, "Well, it's probably for the best! She had a drug problem, you know."
(She also had two tiny children. And a husband. And was a sweet person working hard to get well.)
That's when I realized there really was something wrong with NMom.
Hops
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Oh.............that hurt////
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Boy...talk about some lemonade coming from a lemon. I am actually starting to realize that maybe..just maybe...I was one of the LUCKY ones in that I had such cold, narcissistic parenting that I couldn't get close to them much. Allowed me to be more objective about their behavior. My gosh...I never thought I would find that as lucky, but I am starting to.
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I am so blown away by all this...sorry for repeating myself over and over.
However did we survive?
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Anastasia I am always amazed when I read of people who had that degree of detachment to see something wrong in the FOO as you did and to see themselves apart from it/the FOO. It seems to me it must indicate a quality of clear-sightedness and a sense of a separate identity that must support resilience. Not that these qualities are a cure all, but that they could help you chart a course away from the FOO.
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Hi,been lurking for awhile apologize for not introducing my self earlier.. in response to realizing when my Nparent was abnormal/lo-ca--
i would say about 30 yrs.when i realized that she acted jealous of me, and treated me as if i was competition for her(post divorce i was dating).. she flew into a rage on night, because i was dating a man closer to her age (he was 45-she 47). she flew into a rage and threatened and threw me out of the house..-told me to give live with my new boyfriend or she would call the cops on me..apparently she was miffed that he was interested in me, not her..
as karma would have it, i married him(been 8 yrs now).we have 3 teens together, and she lives alone with her misery.
its always been a control issue with her..she still wont call or email me or the kids since november-when i called her on some lies she told about me..
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Anastasia I am always amazed when I read of people who had that degree of detachment to see something wrong in the FOO as you did and to see themselves apart from it/the FOO. It seems to me it must indicate a quality of clear-sightedness and a sense of a separate identity that must support resilience. Not that these qualities are a cure all, but that they could help you chart a course away from the FOO.
I was told that I had had childhood resilience -- which formed a survivor personality. I was independent from the age of 5 years.
Leah x
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Oh, my, Lollie
I think I will decline the cake, thank you!
I thought my experience was awful, but, it is not so. I was made to drink a cup of tea that I had left on the table, in a dash for school, so when I returned home some 8 hours later, my dad stood over me and forced me to drink it, it was all horrible with a huge skin on top! ugh. I would be about aged 9 years I think. He did the same with some porridge I left, again, to dash off for the bus to school. My chores took up most of my time before leaving for school.
Leah x
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Dear Lollie,
Oddly enough, abuse did occur through food. I was given different food to my brother. He had steak. I had fish fingers.
I had to look on and wonder why I did not have the same food as everyone else at the table. My brother did next to knowing and had steak!! I know my mother made Rabbit stew, and passed it off as Chicken. I have a true account regarding my mother and my pet rabbit.
Love, Leah
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(((((((((lollie))))))))) (((((((((((LEAH))))))))))
In my twenties I worked as a nanny, very briefly, for an attorney. He had just divorced his wife and was able to get full custody of thier 3 children, which at that time were between the ages 4 and 8.
It took about a week for me to figure out that the father was abusive. I had returned to the house one night after being out on a personal errand. I went up to the childrens rooms to make sure that they had been properly tucked in since I had noticed that the father would often send the kids to bed in dirty street clothes and without so much as a good nights kiss.
When I checked on the 4 year old she awoke and started crying those deep slient tears. She was unable to explain what happened. Her older sister awoke and told me that the 4 year old had spilled her dinner on the floor by accident and their father yelled at her and made her eat her food off of the floor until every last bit was gone.
It broke my heart.
About a year later I helped the mother by testifiying against the father, highlighting that incident as just one out of many that I observed in the 6 months I worked for him.
He only wanted full custody of his kids so that he would not have to pay child support.
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Hi Lollie,
Last night I reflected more on this memory. Realizing I new nothing of narcissism at that time in my life but I was awake to my own abusive childhood pains and able to recognize abuse.
Thinking back I realize more about N behavior the father did. When I first moved in he slandered their mother constantly to me. It was the children who loved their mom and helped me to see how good she was. Just thinking about the confusion of the children when they would have to listen to their father put their mother down and the look of terror on their faces, not knowing who to trust.
If I had known what I know now it would not have taken me so long to speak up and say something.
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BTW - Anastasia I know this is your thread -- my last post was addressed to lollie -- I meant you no disrespect.
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... I got some shocks when I watched other parents interactions with their children and realized I never experienced such positive relationship. I didn't know such relationship was even possible, since my FOO was isolated in various ways.
I feel the same. I am 40. Even now it is difficult for me to accept that my parents are crazy.
Maybe I realized it when I was about 10 and my father rented a small motorcycle to ride (drunk) with my brother. My mother stayed at home, terrorizing me and doing nothing to solve the problem as usual. When they got back, there was a lot of blood on my brother's scrapped knees and legs. And guess what? My turn. When we almost crashed into a bus and ended up in a vacant lot, in the middle of some plants, I felt really humiliated and knew something was wrong.
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Dear Hardtotrust,
Ouch. As I read yours story and the other painful dysfunctional stories of family here my heart wrenches. It makes me wonder if as you talk about this it brings up any painful feelings for you?
Gab
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Hi, Gab
All the stories here are impressive. This thread is great.
Yes, when I talk about this it brings up very painful feelings. I cried a lot writing many versions of my post, thinking deeply about the question Anastasia brought us. But it is painful in a good sense, because I feel like I am cleaning up, accessing things that need to be released. That's why I like this thread, it is very therapeutic and personal.
Hugs to all the brave people posting here. And to the ones just lurking as well.
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(((((((((((Hardtotrust,Lise,Lollie,Iphi, Anastasia, Legalmom and Leah))))))))))))))))
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I, too, have been called a survivor during my life. I think what people mean when they say that is that they see you are "resiliant" and don't allow yourself to get beaten to your knees. Personally, I think that is just a quality you are more-or-less born with.
This noon I was remembering one of the first times I remember being unable to trust my mother involving her telling me my stepfather wouldn't let her buy a dress and telling me not to say anything; and, naturally, I repeated it to my stepfather when he came in as, in my 4 or 5 year old mind, I was defending my mother. She told me I was lying, and she never said anything like that in front of my stepfather when this all occurred.
And then accusing me of being a liar has lasted for years and years. And I am NOT the one who is the liar. She is.
She tried to dump me and have me live with my grandmother when I was 2-1/2 and her divorce was over. I was on the farm until my grandmother (already burdened with her son's 14 y.o. daughter) told my mother to come get me.
One of my earliest memories at 4 was saying to myself that "if my mother loves me so, how come she has dumped me with my grandmother."
So, take being abandoned--with betrayal--and you have someone who can really look at their mother pretty objectively. That is my guess, Iphi, since you mentioned it.
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A narcissist doesn't want to compete with a child for attention or give their attention to kids. Nope, my Nmother NEVER wanted children, so I was the unwanted burden she couldn't wait to get out of the house. She made sure she had no more children.
There are articles about this on the net if you look. Answers alot of your questions.
I KNEW I was on my own, more or less, from really about 12 on although it was always. In my immature mind, I felt my Nmother would protect me when I was younger than that. Sure...that's why she tried to dump me with my grandmother. Ahh.....to be naive and innocent again when you actually believe that a mother loves her child--instead of the reality that SOME mothers really don't give a crap and would rather get rid of them.
I hate people calling God into conversations. Like "God will take care of me" is a great one. Sure, He will...if you get a damned J-O-B.
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... the reality that SOME mothers really don't give a crap and would rather get rid of them.
I hate people calling God into conversations. Like "God will take care of me" is a great one. Sure, He will...if you get a damned J-O-B.
And I bet you've heard a thousand times, when looking for understanding from other people, how "YOU have to understand", "When parents get older they start acting like children again, I've been there", "You have to forgive", "They did the best they could", "I also have some problems with my mother" and so on.
I do understand your complaint about mentioning God. First of all, usually it is nothing but a disrespectful way of dismissing your problems and pain. Instead of listening and being there for you, someone simply says "God will solve all your problems". Now this person looks superior, religious and you have to be on your own, misunderstood.
Second, for people like us, thinking about giving control of our lives to God brings up the memories of what happened when the control of our lives were in the hands of our parents, and it feels like suicide, a very slow one. It is extremely hard to believe it won't happen again in the same way.
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I think I was about 13-14 years old, sitting in the therapist's office, when things started to clarify about how sick and twisted my Nmother really is!
Bones
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Great thread. Growing up, I never thought of my mom as crazy, but knew from a very early age that she had problems. and I considered her extremely mean (now I think "psycho" would describe her pretty well). My father was very normal, and handled her pretty well (at least to me it seemed he did). Unfortunately, we died when I was 11, but before that, he protected me from a lot.
Earliest thing I remember when I knew my mom was "off," for lack of a better word at the moment, was around age 6-7 . When she would determine I had done something wrong needing punishment, she'd get out the cat-a-nine-tails (a leather strap with 9 long thin pieces dangling from it--very effective device), and used it until I cried long enough and loud enough, and she had left enough marks to convince herself she'd given me "what I deserved." Sometimes she'd wait till my dad got home, tell him what I had done, and insist that he use the strap on me for the number of times she had determined -- which usually started a big argument between them cuz he wouldn't just do what she said without hearing both sides of the story. Even at that age, I knew deep down that she was totally unreasonable and out of touch with reality. I also remember being about 8 and her and dad got into a terrible argument cuz it was my birthday and my dad wanted to buy me a bike - she became enraged, and told him the only bike she would allow him to get for me was one from the junkyard, cuz that's where her parents got her bike from, and if she couldn't get new living room furniture, there was no way she'd let him get me a paid-for bike - he did, and suffered much for it, too. I always knew she had some sort of mental problem, just didn't realize how severe til I got older. Ah, the memories ...
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Sometimes I read the stories from my fellow victims and my stomach is turned. Surely I am not alone in this?
I'm just proud that so many of us came out of these horrid situations not totally crazy ourselves.
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Anastasia,
I often feel guilty for complaining when I read others' stores. Yes, my mother did not like/love me. I was not abused physically... I am not sure why, but that was one line she would not cross. I think she feared my father. I can remember lots of times when she would say that she would tell my father to spank me. Mostly he did not. I wonder if she disliked me enough not to even want to touch me? I think it must have been a fear of my father knowing how she truly felt...
Love to all of you.
Beth
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Nan99, what you suffered is extremely abusive!
Beth, it doesn't matter if there are people who suffered more than you. Your pain is legitimate and deserves to be recognized.
Hugs.
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Thank you, hardtotrust. I often have to remind myself of this, even as I say the same words to others.
I do hope that all here know that despite our differing levels of *abuse* (I don't know what to call it, but I guess sucky childhood or marriage might fit between the asterisks as well), we all have an understanding of each other's situation. I am grateful we are here so we can share and compare... and find out where to go next...
Love, Beth
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Beth wrote:
. I can remember lots of times when she would say that she would tell my father to spank me. Mostly he did not. I wonder if she disliked me enough not to even want to touch me? I think it must have been a fear of my father knowing how she truly felt...
Beth, maybe this is true with your mom, too, but with my mom wanting my father to do the spanking, I always saw it like she was jealous because dad and I got along well, and she wanted me to hate him for spanking me, and wanted him to hate me so she kept telling him how bad I was; or maybe it was her way of trying to punish us for not being as miserable as she was or she was trying to make us as miserable like her. Just my take on it.
(PS: My mom didn't touch me much either, and when she did it was never in a nurturing way; always felt she disliked me. When I look back on it, I think it was because she disliked herself so much and never felt loved by her parents -- I think she treated me just the way her mom treated her. It somehow helps me to think on those terms - that it wasn't "me" she disliked, but the "her" she saw in me.)