Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anastasia on February 24, 2008, 07:18:15 AM
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Yes, I have read Dr. Grossman's article on this subject; but, I still am not convinced. I think that some of the milder cases of Nparents might love their children to the best of their ability--which may be far less than the norm--IF their narcissism isn't very extreme.
But a classic Narcisist, I believe from my own observation, just does not have the ability to love anything much UNLESS the person takes care of THEM. If THEY are the one being taken care of, they seem to be able to give some love to the caretaker. But if they, the Nparent, is to love someone they take care of, it doesn't seem they have any ability to love that person as they see them simply as a burden that takes away from their time on themselves. It is all me, me, me to the narcissist, anyway.
Oh, yes, they want their children to adore them, to worship them, to listen and idolize them, the Nparent. But do they really have the ability to love back? I don't think so, myself.
Maybe this is based on the classic Nmother I had, myself, but, after observing another Nparent in my family (a female cousin), I don't believe they really have any ability to love or care much at all. I think that they can fake it for the outside world is all.
Now if the Nparent is caretaking an animal, they seem to have the ability to love. Why? Well, an animal will adore who feeds it. An animal you don't have to get intimate with. An animal can't talk back. And the Nparent gets what they want most from an animal: adoration, worship, love.
I really do not believe a truly classic Narcissistic parent is capable of loving their children or anything that doesn't simply worship and adore them totally. I understand that this flies completely opposite of what Dr. Grossman has written, but I really have to challenge this theory on this one issue.
Opinions?
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It seems my mom WANTS to love but I have truly seen her in action giving those who lips the ground she walks on preferential treatment. She wants the world to see the happy Christian family-but it is nothing but a facade.
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I do not believe a Narcissist can love. They were most likely not ever shown love, have no neuro-connectors that formed of love, and just can't feel or grasp even the idea of it.
I DO believe that God can take a stony heart and turn it into a soft one, but only HE can do that and only in some situations WILL He. Not that He wouldn't want EVERYONE to love, because He does, but there are some people in this world who will NEVER love.
~Laura
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Now if the Nparent is caretaking an animal, they seem to have the ability to love. Why? Well, an animal will adore who feeds it. An animal you don't have to get intimate with. An animal can't talk back. And the Nparent gets what they want most from an animal: adoration, worship, love.
I really do not believe a truly classic Narcissistic parent is capable of loving their children or anything that doesn't simply worship and adore them totally. I understand that this flies completely opposite of what Dr. Grossman has written, but I really have to challenge this theory on this one issue.
Opinions?
Anastasia,
I agree with you. My ex husband treated his dogs better than he did us... he'd even make them gravy and special suppers. But he would never feed them or tend to their needs on a regular basis or on any sort of schedule, so they were entirely at his mercy until my children and I began to tend them. At first, he insisted that we shouldn't put out their dinner bowls at the same time daily - because, as he said, he never
did that for them. Why? Because he didn't want them to get used to it... didn't want them to become demanding of him. And yeah, if you starve an animal or a human for basic needs and affection, of course they're going to practically idolize you when you, on rare occasions, do actually provide for their needs. Rotten to the core.
Carolyn
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No, there is no love. There is jealousy, anger, fear and resentment. The 'good' only ever comes when you have done a good Dog and Pony show or brought them something they want. Or if they live vicariously through you.
Love, Beth
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God helps those who help themselves. One has got to open up and realise and accept to see changes are needed. And to want to change and want Gods help, AND are willing to accept help
nogadge
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I don't think N parents can love. Until recently I thought what I had experienced was love. My parents often spoke of loving and often say, "I love you" but what I experienced is far, far from love, it is manipulation and control and strings and sabotage and is all about what they can get from someone else. It would be very, very sad if it had not been so extremely damaging to so many people.
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I don't think N parents can love. Until recently I thought what I had experienced was love. My parents often spoke of loving and often say, "I love you" but what I experienced is far, far from love, it is manipulation and control and strings and sabotage and is all about what they can get from someone else. It would be very, very sad if it had not been so extremely damaging to so many people.
I agree. I suppose a lot depends on what we mean by "love". N parents may attend to their children to the best of their ability, but does this constitute love? Can they really love someone they perceive only as an object or extension of themselves? They definitely can believe they love this fantasy image, but I'd say it falls far short of real love for the actual other person.
In my FOO, I never heard the word love until after I had grown up and left the house. Then all of a sudden it was part of the regular content of their "parenting by mail". They started talking love only after it became a tool to keep the game going.
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No, someone can NOT love who never felt nor experienced love and didn't have "love" connect in his/her brain in any way, shape or form and YES IT TAKES GOD, not G-d to heal that in a person. In fact it takes Yahuwshu`a, Jesus and no I will NOT leave HIm out because HE is the only and best answer if anyone is to heal a narcissist or other person.
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In my FOO, I never heard the word love until after I had grown up and left the house. Then all of a sudden it was part of the regular content of their "parenting by mail". They started talking love only after it became a tool to keep the game going.
Once again, Ditto, tjr. Amazing.
Carolyn
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So many of the responses here said exactly my thoughts so well. So, guess we are all in agreement.
Isn't it amazing how NPD's all have the exact same behavior? So predictable. So easily diagnosed once you are aware of the symptoms.
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So many of the responses here said exactly my thoughts so well. So, guess we are all in agreement.
Isn't it amazing how NPD's all have the exact same behavior? So predictable. So easily diagnosed once you are aware of the symptoms.
Thanks Anastasia for starting the thread. It puts a couple more pieces of the puzzle together for me. My father seems capable of tending to animals, as long as they are relatively safe. His dog is the only "other" he is really able to relate to. The positive regard doesn't extend to stronger more potentially dangerous animals, such as bears.
Thinking back I now realize the first time I heard the word "love" from my parents came shortly after my youngest sibling moved out of the house for college. Even then I knew it was a phony sentiment. But only now is the pattern more clear. They looked at each other and realized they were going to spend the rest of their lives alone in their narcissistic prisons with no offspring for "supply". So then the project turns to keeping the family together forever.
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They looked at each other and realized they were going to spend the rest of their lives alone in their narcissistic prisons with no offspring for "supply". So then the project turns to keeping the family together forever.
For me, it didn't begin until they were no longer able to entertain themselves through travel and other interests. Having grand stories to tell of trips far and wide seemed to provide sufficient supply for a time....
It's been the past 7 years, since we've been separated geographically that the love talk in letters has really come on strong. I don't think they ever dreamed I'd move away from their zone.
The project... yikes, tjr. I'm thankful that none of us was put here for the purpose of being someone's project!!
Anastasia, thanks from me, also, for this thread.
Carolyn
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I had the sum total of 2 incidents in my life with my N-dad where he expressed love.
1 - we were camping and me and my sister got "lost". (we went off with some boys!) But my dad thought we were lost. Hours later we showed up. He actually CRIED and hugged us and said how much he loved us and was scared. (perhaps he was relieved that now he wouldn't look like the bad parent after all? who knows if it was really love!)
2 - Years after he tried to steal money in my college fund, he called me over to the house, cried and hugged me, apologized and said he loved me.
The next day I found out he was drunk and didn't remember it at all!!!
My opinion of the answer to your question - SOMETHING might get through to them, but I think it takes an awful lot. They have so many defenses and coping mechanisms in place for every contingency. N's are people, too, but they are people with a tangled web of beliefs and coping skills developed out of necessity. I don't think THEY even know what they feel.
(obviously this thread is a trigger for me, - but hey that's good. Always good to reflect on and dig deeper.)
Dandylife
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Hi Anastasia,
Can Narcissists really love their children??????
Short answer.
Narcissists IMO and from my experience, harvest whatever there is to harvest from the souls of other humans (and nature) whenever it fits their need or gives them supply. Your age, size, social standing, race, gender, religion, politics, wealth, decency - none of these will deter them. They don't care. Unfortunately babies, children, are powerless. They are stuck unless someone witnesses the inequity and intervenes. Children almost always have no out. Children who have a nonN adult in their life who shows compassion and lets the child know that they understand is about the best a child stuck with an N parent can hope for.
tt
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tjr and Carolyn,
I think you are right on the button about 'love' being expressed after you leave. My mother says it so much now, but it is a way to close conversation and I know it has no meaning. Also, tjr, she adores her animals in a way she has never cared about a human. I often wonder how that can be??????? I felt so silly when I realized that as a young adult I was jealous of house pets... Now it just disgusts me. How can a person not love a child and then worship a pet???
Have to say I worship my Stinky Henry... but my kids are my life... I feel he is part of that... not the only object of my affection.
Dandy, I never had anything close to emotion from my mother - unless i was to call me a whore or selfish. I can remember rage emotions, but never a loving emotion.
Izzy... so sorry about your childhood. Yuck!
Love, Beth
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tjr and Carolyn,
I think you are right on the button about 'love' being expressed after you leave. My mother says it so much now, but it is a way to close conversation and I know it has no meaning.
Thanks for the confirmation Beth and Carolyn. For a lot of years I think I just assumed there was something wrong with me. I'd hear the word love from my parents and it made me angry. I hadn't figured out what was going on but I knew it didn't feel right. It was one of the tools they used to "infantilize" their adult children and keep them as sources of n-ish supply. Just one example, when I and my siblings were all in our 30's, my mother sent us each a childrens book, aimed at about a 3 year old level, telling how much she "loved her little children". Of course we never heard such a thing when we actually were 3 years old. I tried to tell myself these things were effects of age, but the pattern is more obvious now.
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tjr,
My mother does this with my own daughter (her grandchild). She bought her a furby for a present once and said it talked just like my daughter (it has a babyish voice). My daughter has never talked like a baby. She also has gotten amazingly bad at remmbering things in sequence... she mixes events, people and times to suit her at the moment. I don't even correct her anymore. She definitely has a bizarre fantasy world going on in her head.
Have to say that's pretty weird to send you those books! Wow.
Love, Beth
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Can Narcissists really love their children?
NO
Axa
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....uh...I'm waiting for a good argument that says we are wrong. Wonder if we will get one?
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If you find the article 'And Now we are Six' (do a google search), it gives some positive insight to having a relationship with an N. I try to believe it, but I am not sure I can (or really do want to).
Love, Beth
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From AND NOW WE ARE SIX
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Traits:
amoral/conscienceless
authoritarian
care only about appearances
contemptuous
critical of others
cruel
disappointing gift-givers
don't recognize own feelings
envious and competitive
feel entitled
flirtatious or seductive
grandiose
hard to have a good time with
hate to live alone
hyper-sensitive to criticism
impulsive
lack sense of humor
naive
passive
pessimistic
religious
secretive
self-contradictory
stingy
strange work habits
unusual eating habits
weird sense of time
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Laura B. Formholtz
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8
Like a 6 yr old child
« Reply #1 on Today at 5:59pm »
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Excerpted from: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/six.html
"Six can, oh so often, be expansive and out-of-bounds, contrary, violent, hard...to live with."(p. 4)
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"Your typical Six-year-old is a paradoxical little person, and bipolarity is the name of the game. Whatever he does, he does the opposite just as readily. In fact, sometimes the choice of some certain object or course of action immediately triggers an overpowering need for its opposite." (p. 1, the first paragraph of the book) [Emphasis in original]
"Six's reversals are truly something to be reckoned with." (p. 2)
"I love you" rapidly changes to "I hate you." (p. 2, 6)
stubborn and can't make up mind (p. 2)
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"The child is now the center of his own universe." (p. 2, 15) [Emphasis in original]
delighted by any silly thing that calls attention to himself; may do silly, show-offy things to call attention to himself when he feels neglected or shut out (pp. 71-72)
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arrogant (p. 7)
self-important ("extremely aware of the importance of being Six") (p. 22)
demands rather than asks (twice on p. 6, 16)
thinks own way is always right (p. 7)
once started, will stick to a course of bad behavior or bad judgment regardless of the inevitability of being punished for it (p. 7)
asks to be flattered and praised as "good," even ("rather sadly and touchingly") following his worst behavior (p. 6)
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can't accept criticism (p. 7)
feelings are hurt over very small criticisms, comments, failures (p. 6)
"He is so extremely anxious to do well, to be the best, to be loved and praised, that any failure is very hard for him." (p. 6)
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wants to win every time (p. 4, 21, 45)
poor sport, can't stand to lose (p. 7, 16)
argumentative and quarrelsome (p. 21)
defiant, pert, fresh, snippy (p. 6, 17)
competitive, combative (p. 20)
belligerent, verbally and physically aggressive (p. 21)
threatens, calls names, gets physically violent (p. 21)
violent temper tantrums may require physical restraint because of striking out (p. 29)
jealous, envious (p. 7, 21)
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to make sure of winning, will cheat or make up own rules (pp. 21-22, 45)
complains that others are cheating and not following the rules (p. 45)
some are very cruel to younger children (p. 22)
does not always tell the truth (p. 16)
will not admit to wrongdoing (p. 41) [Note: A technique is given for getting the facts out of kids that also works with narcissists: instead of asking if they did it, ask how they did it.]
goodness means the things explicitly required or allowed by parents or other authority figures; badness means the things explicitly disapproved of or forbidden (p. 66)
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little forgiveness (p. 22)
very critical of others' conduct (p. 22)
expects friendships to be resumed immediately following tremendous complaint and conflict (p. 22)
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wants to boss (p. 21)
"Many children think their father knows everything -- even what goes on at home while he is at work."(p. 16)
thinks his teacher knows the best and only right way of doing things; may not know which rules to follow when school rules differ from home rules (p. 18)
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"highly undifferentiated -- everything is everywhere" (p. 7)
can't always tell the difference between "yours" and "mine," and so often steals (pp. 39-41)
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"random and unconstructive expenditure of energy" (p. 31)
more interested in merely handling or using tools than in what is accomplished with them (pp. 53-54)
less interested in actual final products than in whatever he may be doing at the moment(p. 56)
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"Sixes love to dress up and pretend they are somebody else...." (p. 49)
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This is from Dr. Grossman's website - article "Voicelessness: Narcissism"
"Can such people be helped? Sometimes. The critical factor is whether they ultimately acknowledge their core problem: that as a child they felt neither seen nor heard (and/or their self was fragile as a result of trauma, genetic predisposition, etc.), and they unconsciously employed self-building strategies to survive. Acknowledging this truth takes much courage, for they must face their underlying lack of self-esteem, their exceptional vulnerability, and significantly, the damage they have caused others. Then comes the long and painstaking work of building (or resurrecting) a genuine, non-defensive self in the context of an empathic and caring therapy relationship."
In the midst of their disorder, I doubt that a genuine "love" - the generally accepted definition of love - a true and deep concern and caring for another's wellbeing - is possible.
Dr. Grossman does seem to believe they can be helped with proper therapy to lead a better life.
Dandylife
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Thanks for posting the parts of that article, Laura. I know there is a section, too, which talks about the ability to have a relationship with an N parent.
Lollie, I think you are right on. I believe that my mother believes she loves, but she has no concept of the emotion. It is like me pretending I know what it feels like to be a super nova.
Love, Beth
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ReallyME, thanks for posting all that. I think that sums it up for Nmommy on my end. Again, really helpful and thanks!!!
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I do not believe Ns are capable of feeling or demonstrating what most consider to be "healthy" love. An N's children are merely extensions of themselves...they are not individual human beings. It is also interesting to see all these similar experiences which I also share. In my case, my Nmom would tell everyone and anyone that she is a loving, wonderful mother and that her kids are "everything" to her. Not really true. My Nmom was very good at providing the daily, necessary things in life---food, shelter, presents at Christmas and birthdays, etc. But most people realize that is just the beginning of what a mother should be. Nmoms, as my mom was and is, is incapable of being a real mom....She can't supply any of the encouragement, support, empathy, interest or concern that healthy moms do. The world revolves on its axis around her.
So while she may think she has been a "perfect" mother, it is impossible for her to acknowledge or admit that she has been far less than that because her definition of motherhood is so extremely limited. After all, the only ones who are in a position to judge whether or not someone has been a good parent or not, is the children of that parent.
Also, as Dr. Grossman said, while it's "possible" for Ns to improve, it takes an ENORMOUS commitment and willingness to face their demons. Any therapist will tell you therapy rarely works with true Ns because their disorder keeps them from looking at themselves, acknowleding their faults and the damage they have caused. They simply refuse to look in the mirror.
My own Nmom recently made a comment that she firmly believes parents are to blame for absolutely NOTHING that goes wrong in a child's life. However, she more than willingly takes credit for anything GOOD that happens in that child's life. In fact, she will tell everyone she is the reason for it.
So yes, many commonalities in Nparents.
The other comment I want to make is this. While an Nparent is incapable of truly loving their children, the sad truth is that families that enable this behavior because the other parent is a co-dependent, results in the child not receiving love from either parent. The co-dependent dotes exclusively on the N and therefore cannot develop a healthy, loving relationship with the children....So essentially, the child is left with no parent....
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Yikes, Sunblue.
This hit hard:
While an Nparent is incapable of truly loving their children, the sad truth is that families that enable this behavior because the other parent is a co-dependent, results in the child not receiving love from either parent. The co-dependent dotes exclusively on the N and therefore cannot develop a healthy, loving relationship with the children....So essentially, the child is left with no parent....
Almost made me reassess whether my father (codependent for sure) loved me. But, I believe he did. He never forcefully stood up for me nor confronted my mother about anything. But I could tell in his voice and touch that he loved me. Best he knew how.
Sad thought, above...
Hops
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Between my classic Nmother and insecure/jealous bi-polar stepfather (and God only knows where my biological father was during my childhood), I had NO real parenting in the traditional sense of a mother and father who cared or encouraged me. I have a feeling there are many of us out here like that.
The lack of caring was a huge source of pain to me for years when I was young...then, I am thinking around 27, I disconnected from the pain slowly and surely until...I just didn't care anymore about my lack of caring parents anymore. But I remember being very deeply hurt over their behavior towards me for years, and, especially, their constant daily insults, put-downs, belittling, etc.
It took an enormous amount of work on myself to stop the tapes of what a "bad" person I was according to my Nmother. My early 20's were a living hell in my mind as I could hear her voice inside my head all the time. And she nagged, bitched and picked at me 24/7 my whole life.
Maturity heals all wounds, I guess. Now whatever she says about me just rooooolllllls off my back, because I could care less now. I KNOW who I am. This MUST be a tremendous loss of power for her. Ooopsie...guess she ultimately lost the game.
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Hi Hops:
Sorry if my comment made you or anyone upset. I seriously didn't intend that. I was only speaking from my own experience. From my perspective, I don't believe that co-dependents are incapable of caring about and loving their children. Quite the opposite. Unfortunately, all the love and care they have is usually reserved exclusively for the Nspouse. In his way, I believe my co-d dad believes he loves his kids, and maybe on some level he does. But in my mind, it's not a healthy or even helpful kind of love when the co-D parent won't or can't spend time with you, take an interest in your life, support you, stand up for you or protect you (from the other Nparent).
For instance, I have repeatedly over the years asked my dad to do things with me...just little activities so we could spend time together. But he won't do it....he won't do anything that does not involve my Nmom and where my Nmom can be the center of attention. He virtually will ignore me or what I say if she is in the room. I remember once when I was 12 or so, there was this father-daughter type event at school. Everyone I knew were bringing their dads. It was the type of thing where the daughter prepares a simple dish at home and then brings it to the school event to serve her dad, followed by a little dance. Many of the girls are given flowers by the dad.....Well, I wanted to go....I asked but my dad basically said he had no interest in going (of course not! my mother wouldn't be in attendance)....Eventually he was guilted into it by family members....but it was obvious through the whole evening he didn't want to be there. I'll always remember that.
But that is just typical.....My dad has never initiated or participated in a serious conversation that had to do with me. He never offered advice about anything....never said he was proud of me.....never acknowledged me or my interests really in any way. Once my mom was in the hospital for a routine surgery. I was young and had a slight accident while roller skating....I was bleeding and my knees were skinned pretty bad and I was a little scared. I just remember my dad screaming at me for falling saying "How could you do that when your mother is in the hospital?" Again, his focus was always on the N in the family.
Alas, that is all I meant...perhaps other dads in similar situations acted differently. I think it also has a lot to do with the level of co-dependency....Let's face it, some Ns are more narcissistic than others, just as some co-dependents are more co-dependent than others. In my family, extremes ruled.....nothing moderate about it.
Oh well.....I think sometimes if you had at least one parent who noticed you or truly took an interest in you, that offsets the total neglect from the Nparent...I hope that's the case with you Hops...Again, didn't mean to trigger anyone...
Take special care
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Aww, Sun...that wasn't a complaint.
I am always glad when someone writes something that jerks me into fuller awareness.
My Dad was a milder Co-D than yours...but your description made me face more honestly that he really was underprotective of me. I adored him so much that I think it would have been too painful for me to see him as not a strong protective Dad (which I really needed, come to think of it). He was beyond gentle and truly not capable of seeing what was wrong with my Mom (it took me decades and a shrink...he didn't have access to that knowledge). But I do know he loved me.
Still, your post kind of shocked me into realizing how very alone I felt. Bully brother, emotionally absent but invasive mother, isolation and abuse at school. I really did feel I had nowhere to turn and noone to turn to. So I think your post startled me into a moment of greater compassion for my little child self.
So, thank you! (Even if I had been "triggered", which I don't see this as...I always figure being triggered by something is the responsibility of the triggee...learning opportunity, really.)
love,
Hops
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So yes, many commonalities in Nparents.
The other comment I want to make is this. While an Nparent is incapable of truly loving their children, the sad truth is that families that enable this behavior because the other parent is a co-dependent, results in the child not receiving love from either parent. The co-dependent dotes exclusively on the N and therefore cannot develop a healthy, loving relationship with the children....So essentially, the child is left with no parent....
So many commonalities for sure. Good comments Sunblue. Looks like I need to hit the books to learn something about Co-dependence, because this might explain where my mother fits into the FOO. Someone outside the FOO system once applied this label to her. Her behavior phases from indifference to over attachment depending on her personal moods. I think she mistakes attachment for "love". But the result for the offspring was no real love from either parent.