Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on February 25, 2008, 01:27:15 PM
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Hello Everyone,
Why is it that the only board members that complain about religion and God, being talked about here on the board, are the nonreligious board members? The religious or Christian's rarely, if never, complain about the lack of faith or lack of God from the agnostic posters?
This is an innocent question to me, I mean no disrespect to the agnostic's or atheists here on the board. If anything I would like to hear more from you about precisely why it is so bothersome to read about Christianity or other forms of religion here on the board.
Gab
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Hi Lise,
I don't know why you are more tolerant than I appear to be.
I think perhaps it may have something to do with my feelings about dominance...negative associations I have with religion's influence in the world.
Some time ago, I posted a lot about a connection in my mind between Christianity (not Christ) and sexism. I know that has been a big influence in my pulling away from my childhood faith. And, the violence of religion.
So just in some instances the language, the code words and phrases, probably bang on old bruises.
Being agnostic in a predominantly religious community may feel in part like being a black person in a white town. I know black people who say, even if a white person truly is not racist, there's a whole layer of assumptions and privileges and overlookings operating in most white folks that they don't recognize. I believe this.
I'm not saying I feel those indignities here. I don't feel offended. I just do honestly struggle sometimes. Because it did change the board, when so much religious testimony came. But I think I described my feelings adequately, and was responded to generously and more than adequately, on the other thread.
I don't have a need to rehash it in multiple places. I'll just bring it up now and then if I feel pulled to. In fact, I'd really be grateful if it didn't become an ongoing controversy. How about you? The bottom line for me is that I don't feel anyone is "being mean" to me, at all, by being true to themselves. It's just something that's at times difficult for me anyway. Make sense?
I remember one great remark an otherwise-lousy therapist said to me once:
"In a healthy system, you're always free to comment."
So I was commenting, I hope, more than complaining. (But I'm not sure.) :?
Hops
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So just in some instances the language, the code words and phrases, probably bang on old bruises.
That is good insight -- I understand. Many people, when first entering AA, often talk about negative early childhood experiences with faith upbringings. That is one reason why Bill Wilson wrote to AA's to chose a conception of God of their own undertanding. It was a way to help AA's get away from the bruises and to open their minds.
In fact, I'd really be grateful if it didn't become an ongoing controversy. How about you?
For as long as we have religious and nonreligious here on the board there will always be some controversy. As a matter of fact the topic of religion is the world's leading controversy subject it has been that way for thousands of years. Realistically I can't see it changing in the too near future.
It's just something that's at times difficult for me anyway. Make sense?
Yes, I used to be very agnostic in my thinking, just the word Christ aroused a certain antipathy in me, I fully empathize with you.
"In a healthy system, you're always free to comment."
Well said.
Peace and thanks ((((HOPS))))
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Thank you, Lise.
Peace back.
Another thought I have.
I am grateful for my religious upbringing, in part.
Mainly because I understood about Christ.
Now, in my different life, I no longer know (nor really care) whether or not Christ was real, though I think historically he was. I don't know whether or not all the qualities or quotations ascribed to him really happened either. I think that some of them did.
But for me, what I keep, is that as a little girl, I understood about Christ. He was personal, then. Now, no longer. But that's okay with me. I understand the idea of Christ.
I feel that in part, I understand love because of those teachings, which stayed with me.
I also understand love because of behaviors, which I remember. Kindness in people's hands.
I don't hook them together any more because it doesn't matter to me where they came from, if they are real. When I met the Dalai Lama (spent a week with him) and literally felt compassion radiating from him like a powerful wave (at one of the most skeptical periods in my life) ... I recognized that love was a real idea. Not a notion, but a force.
It's not important to me any more to ascribe it to a particular person or theology or thing. Just to practice it.
In my quirky way I think I'm very religious.
Oy. I can confuse myself but at times I've gotten it. Here's a couple extracts from a sermon on agnosticism I gave last year. It helped me a lot because it was my first near-success at defining my agnositcism as a position of faith (which I know sounds contradictory, but it's where my mind takes it). No idea if it helped anyone else.
I have called myself a very optimistic agnostic ripe for a deathbed conversion. Lately, a more reluctant agnostic who prefers to read mysteries because I’m scared of what more mystical books might demand. I have also defended agnosticism with passion, as a wonderful membranous space that’s as full of worship as a happy ascetic, as full of thought as a peaceful philosopher, as full of positive purpose as a good teacher.
One thing I feel very clear about is that agnosticism is not atheism, and for some reason it really gets my dander up when the two are lumped together carelessly, alphabetically, as though an agnostic is too lazy to make metaphors for “I don’t know, but I remain open.” Agnosticism is not the absence of caring, it’s not dismissal, it’s not arrogant, it’s not fixed, it’s not a lot of things. It requires courage and a sense of wonder. I am conspicuously lacking in the courage department, but I’m awash in wonder. [....]
The attraction of agnosticism is not lack of commitment. It’s not fence-sitting, it’s fence-walking. In the middle of the rail is no time to pick a side, it’s a time to feel the reality of gravity and balance, to sway and be amazed at the miraculous ability of lifted arms to prevent your fall.
Oh well. Sigh. There's a poetry about being poised between two worlds, a kind of dynamic tension. But I wobble.
love
Hops
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While I don't begrudge or rail against the Christian views here, I was concerned there wouldn't be room for someone like me, and having a place to not feel alone in my experiences is important right now.
Also, I find its like a club to which I don't belong. There's nothing wrong with that club, but because there are so many club references, special club language, and special club rituals, that I don't share, I feel it renders much of what is being shared in a Christian way as exclusive, or rather, inaccessible to me.
I say "much" because much IS accessible too...and really in the end, I'm glad you have your club :) I can see its valuable and meaningful to you.
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Hi Amber,
It really was. I was 29, involved in an organization he came to visit (before he was quite so trendy and popular). I sat right in front of him as he led a Buddhist worship service in a little chapel in the basement of someone's home. (Didn't understand a word of Tibetan of course but loved the beauty of it.) Hung out with his monks when I wasn't with him. At one point, he gave me a copy of the book about his life and when I asked one of his monks to tell me what the inscription said he told me, it says, "With prayers,...". I was very touched. But the literal wave of compassion hit me on the first night of his stay when I was the only woman at a dinner with 40 men and the Dalai Lama. When he rose to leave all the men surged forward and I was left darting back and forth behind the crowd in frustration, because I wanted to meet him too. As he came opposite me (with half a dozen men between me and his path--I don't get how he even saw me) he abruptly turned in my direction, they all stepped back, and he came and took my hands and held them and greeted me so warmly. I felt the literal wave compassion. I don't know how else to describe it except as a wave. It was PHYSICAL. I have never felt such physical spiritual love before nor since, in that powerful a way. (I imagine that's also what people felt in the presence of Christ, Buddha, others like them.)
During that week I also dreamed about the monks. At one point I felt very sad. I wanted to go with them, and they gently said, No.
(I'm not Buddhist and am a lousy meditator, too many squirrels in the attic. I didn't "convert", I just felt his compassion. It did change me, I think, kind of rearranged my cells.
love
Hops
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While I don't begrudge or rail against the Christian views here, I was concerned there wouldn't be room for someone like me, and having a place to not feel alone in my experiences is important right now.
Daily,
Expressed well, thank you.
Gab
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Hopalong,
that's fascinating. I work with a man who met him a good number of years ago (more than 10) who said almost exactly the same thing upon meeting him and reaching out their hands towards each other, that he felt something physical too, which surprised him because my colleague is a devout Catholic.
I soemtimes call myself a budding Buddhist, the seeds have been sewn, I'll see how they germinate :)
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Gabben,
I don't know the answer to your question. I am agnostic and I have never complained about anyone's use of religion references here. I look at those the same as I would look at someone having an accent while speaking. You filter through it, listen to the words and inflections, and get to the message.
It doesn't bother me.
Dandylife
PS I believe that "spirituality" in whatever incarnation is desired - is an important part of being human. (my belief)
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Gabben,
I don't know the answer to your question. I am agnostic and I have never complained about anyone's use of religion references here. I look at those the same as I would look at someone having an accent while speaking. You filter through it, listen to the words and inflections, and get to the message.
It doesn't bother me.
Dandylife
PS I believe that "spirituality" in whatever incarnation is desired - is an important part of being human. (my belief)
Thank you for your input Dandylife :D
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(I imagine that's also what people felt in the presence of Christ, Buddha, others like them.)
Thank you for sharing that story, it was a good one!
Just a quick note, I agree that it would be just as you described to be in the company of great spiritual leaders. However, I personally cannot place Christ and Buddha in the same league. For one reason which is a non disputed fact, Buddha never claimed to be God and actually insisted that he was not a God, Christ did claim to be God and was able to prove that He was God.
Gabben
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Hi Lise,
Christ did claim to be God and was able to prove that He was God.
This is a nice digest of the difference, thanks.
For me, the words "prove" and "God" don't coexist. But I understand they do for many others.
Hops
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Hi Lise,
Christ did claim to be God and was able to prove that He was God.
This is a nice digest of the difference, thanks.
For me, the words "prove" and "God" don't coexist. But I understand they do for many others.
Hops
Thanks Hops,
Thanks for all of your valued input on this thread I have not had a chance to read your other post here but I will get to it soon.
Gab
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Hello, This is probably not a great first post, but I couldn't resist sharing how I feel about being an atheist. Here is an article that explains what it can feel like to be an atheist among theists:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/15/12016/649
I feel peaceful and happy as an atheist,but since I live in the USA in the bible belt I cannot be myself and be accepted. My workplace prays in meetings. My in-laws try to force religion down my throat. Religion surrounds me everywhere I go. I have been wanting to join this board for quite awhile and have hesitated because when I read posts here it feels like an exclusive Christian board and I definitely don't fit in.
My background as it relates to feeling voiceless is as follows: I was brought up by a paranoid, narcissistic mother and a passive father. My in laws are very narcissistic and my husband has "traits" of narcissism. I am doing my best to develop a voice, but often feel that I am invisible. Being different (atheist in the South) makes it more challenging.
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Hi, Free,
Just wanted to give you a Welcome... glad you've signed on here.
I'm Christian, but I also know what it's like to be surrounded by pushy people who have made it their personal mission in life to convince you that their particular group is the only group worth consideration. Our area is thoroughly saturated with a particular denomination which operates in that fashion and I find it very disturbing, too.
Sorry to know you're dealing with such a package-deal of N's and I hope you'll post some more as you're able... lots of great encouragement and support here!
Carolyn
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Freethinker,
would it help you to imagine you're here with me in the cold wet north where we don't pray at work or even in school anymore? and where we're so multicultural that our universities have built special washrooms solely for the Muslim students so they can wash their hands and feet before prayer 5 times a day? (I like where I live, a LOT)
:)
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Carolyn, thank you. :D
I was just rereading that article and realizing with horror that it is probably horribly offensive to Christians. I hope you all will take it as a raw and uncensored explanation of how I feel without taking it personally. I bookmarked it a long time ago and had forgotten how blunt it is.
DailyMail, I am jealous except for the cold weather. It is 55 degrees here now and tomorrow will have a high of 80 degrees. :D I love my warm weather, but the lack of diversity not so much. I have fantasies of moving to Europe. :D
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Hi Freethinker,
Welcome.
I consider myself a freethinker too.
I am Christian. You are Atheist. We both live in the same crazy world system. Christians can no more escape the craziness than can an Atheist. Please note that I make a distinction between religion and Christianity. For me to be thrown into that big mixed bag known as religion is just as offensive to me as it would be to you.
tt
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Hi Freethinker,
I think I'm going someplace with this question, but not sure. In the Atheist community (if there is such a thing) , do you know how many professing Atheist are in the USA? And further, on meeting another Atheist, do you immediately feel a kinship, withthem even though you've never met them before or had a conversation with them about religious or spiritual issues?
tt
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Hi Iz,
Refresh my memory. I know you're one of the A's, but i can't remember which.
I promise no PTL's when I write to you.
tt
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heh, heh, heh
Agnotstic, tt, but it made me think of my Nsister's husband said,"Praise The Lord" to me when I said, "Heavens. It's icy!," as I navigated hesitantly on my crutches.
I wonder what the connection is between 'PTL' and my possibly breaking my neck too?
You might remember a post of mine now?
Love
Izzy
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Yeah, that's right Iz, Agnostic.
Well, we'r getting a more balanced group of folk her. Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, and I believe may some Budhhist or at lest those leading to Budhhism.
tt
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when I read posts here it feels like an exclusive Christian board and I definitely don't fit in.
My background as it relates to feeling voiceless is as follows: I was brought up by a paranoid, narcissistic mother and a passive father. My in laws are very narcissistic and my husband has "traits" of narcissism. I am doing my best to develop a voice, but often feel that I am invisible. Being different (atheist in the South) makes it more challenging.
Hi Free,
Thank you for your post. I was sad when I read the part about "exclusive Christian Board" -------------NOT, ask Hops. I have not even read the rest of this thread yet, perhaps Hops has already welcomed you?
I'm sorry for the pain you have had to endure. I too have come from the kind of background as you describe, my mom suffered from paranoia and alcoholism N traits. That is a very painful upbringing and one that takes a lifetime to work through. Not to say there is not hope and joy along the way but let's just say that I know your pain.
Please hang out here, the atheist's need you (((((((((((((((((Freethinker)))))))))))))))
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Hi Freethinker, and welcome.
I sometimes listen to FreeThoughtRadio on the Air America network on Sunday afternoons, if I catch it. It's very interesting, and might give you more of a feeling of community. I'm sure they'd have an online forum, too.
I wonder, do atheists feel at home with humanists? There are a lot of Humanist Societies about, perhaps you'd find kindred spirits.
Meanwhile, glad you've found us!
Hopalong
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Hi Freethinker,
Welcome.
I consider myself a freethinker too.
I am Christian. You are Atheist. We both live in the same crazy world system. Christians can no more escape the craziness than can an Atheist. Please note that I make a distinction between religion and Christianity. For me to be thrown into that big mixed bag known as religion is just as offensive to me as it would be to you.
tt
Hi tt, thank you for the welcome. I don't mean to offend with the word religious. I do understand the differentiation between religious and spiritual. I am neither, but I do know many people who self describe as spiritual versus religious. Is your view of being "religious" legalistic and dogmatic?
By the way, I kind of regret the link for my first post. I forgot the specific language that was in that post. It resonated with me when I read it awhile back, but I realize it is insulting to believers and that is not my intention. I wanted to share how alienating it can feel for a non believer in the society we live in.
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Hi Freethinker,
I think I'm going someplace with this question, but not sure. In the Atheist community (if there is such a thing) , do you know how many professing Atheist are in the USA? And further, on meeting another Atheist, do you immediately feel a kinship, withthem even though you've never met them before or had a conversation with them about religious or spiritual issues?
tt
tt, Actually getting atheists together is a bit like herding cats so we will never take over the world. :lol: I believe atheists account for less than 10 percent of the population of the USA. I might feel a kinship upon first meeting another atheist just because it very rarely happens. However, since atheism is not a belief, but just a description of what we don't believe, it doesn't follow that I would necessarily have anything in common with another atheist.
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Hi again, Free,
Just wanted to let you know that I never clicked the link... and no offense taken. I can kinda imagine, though... because I have had some pretty strong feelings of my own about religion, and not toward agnostics... but rather toward those whom I consider legalistic death-mongers. ahem. Anyhow, I understand.
Thanks for your thoughtfulness... and again, welcome!
Carolyn
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::raising hand::
Spiritual here....
not religious.
Welcome Free.
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when I read posts here it feels like an exclusive Christian board and I definitely don't fit in.
My background as it relates to feeling voiceless is as follows: I was brought up by a paranoid, narcissistic mother and a passive father. My in laws are very narcissistic and my husband has "traits" of narcissism. I am doing my best to develop a voice, but often feel that I am invisible. Being different (atheist in the South) makes it more challenging.
Hi Free,
Thank you for your post. I was sad when I read the part about "exclusive Christian Board" -------------NOT, ask Hops. I have not even read the rest of this thread yet, perhaps Hops has already welcomed you?
I'm sorry for the pain you have had to endure. I too have come from the kind of background as you describe, my mom suffered from paranoia and alcoholism N traits. That is a very painful upbringing and one that takes a lifetime to work through. Not to say there is not hope and joy along the way but let's just say that I know your pain.
Please hang out here, the atheist's need you (((((((((((((((((Freethinker)))))))))))))))
Thank you! I am very sorry to hear about your mother's issues. I will have to post more of my story when I have more time. My typing skills suck so long posts take me forever. :) I would like to think I could help other athiests feel comfortable here. Maybe there are others lurking like I have been.
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Hi again, Free,
Just wanted to let you know that I never clicked the link... and no offense taken. I can kinda imagine, though... because I have had some pretty strong feelings of my own about religion, and not toward agnostics... but rather toward those whom I consider legalistic death-mongers. ahem. Anyhow, I understand.
Thanks for your thoughtfulness... and again, welcome!
Carolyn
Thanks Carolyn. :)
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::raising hand::
Spiritual here....
not religious.
Welcome Free.
Thank you lighter! By the way, in my lurking moments, I have really enjoyed your posts.
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YVW and thank you, Free.
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Hi Freethinker, and welcome.
I sometimes listen to FreeThoughtRadio on the Air America network on Sunday afternoons, if I catch it. It's very interesting, and might give you more of a feeling of community. I'm sure they'd have an online forum, too.
I wonder, do atheists feel at home with humanists? There are a lot of Humanist Societies about, perhaps you'd find kindred spirits.
Meanwhile, glad you've found us!
Hopalong
Hi! Thank you. I almost missed your post Hopalong. I definitely feel at home with humanists. I would describe myself as a naturalistic, secular humanist or some such thing. :D I will have to check out the FreeThoughtRadio. Thanks for the information.
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tt and all,
I found this article about percentages:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-religion26feb26,1,214176.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
Secular unaffiliated Americans account for 6.3% of the population; religious unaffiliated, 5.8%; atheists, 1.6%; and agnostics, 2.4%
Yikes! According to this I am only 1.6%. No wonder I feel alone! Although, I am an agnostic atheist, so I guess I get to claim the other 2.4% as well.