Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: papillon on March 08, 2008, 12:30:31 AM
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A couple of interesting recent exchanges from Alice Miller's website - I thought some may find them of value.
Papillon
'keeping resolve'
Friday March 07, 2008
Dear Alice Miller,
Thanks to your books and the support of my mentor, who is an excellent therapist, I have come to terms with the fact that my mother is a narcissist who never wanted me to succeed or to be my authentic self. I have allowed myself to experience the pain of having a mother who never truly loved me and have accepted that she is also reacting to the cruelty in her own childhood, and is completely unaware of this. Six months ago, my husband and I decided that if our parents wanted to visit us, they would stay in a hotel. This was not well received by our parents who have always put their needs above ours. The result is that none of them have come to see our son since. I read that one can see the size of the narcissistic wound by the reaction when one tries to put boundaries in place. My mother became so furious when I suggested the hotel and I know it is not because she wants to be with me or her grandson, but because she is embarrassed by what people will think if they know she is not staying with me. Instead she vilifies me to everyone, as if I am crazy. I know my happiness and mental health is more important to my son than a relationship with narcissistic grandparents, but sometimes I wonder if I it is worth it to maintain some kind of civil relationship with these people for my son's sake. I think it is foolish to expect anyone to be any better as a grandparent than they were as a parent, but sometimes I falter in my resolve. Even as I write this, I know the answer to my dilemma. This is just another example of the continuing pain of having a narcissistic parent, that my children will not have a loving grandmother. However, I must continue to believe that by breaking the cycle of cruelty I am giving him something infinitely more important. I suppose the loneliness that comes from the lack of maternal love is something I will have to live with, but the unconditional love that I feel for my son can at least give me glimpse into what that love might have been like for me as a child. Thank you so much for your work, it has been liberating for me.
Sincerely, AR
Alice Miller : I can't answer your questions better than you did. Congratulations! And keep to the wisdom that your body shares with you: HOTEL.
Unwanted children?
Monday March 03, 2008
From my perspective...the truth about parents that continue to justify the virtues of beating their own children, is that they never wanted the child in the first place. The child is seen as a burden, a mouth to feed. The adult either consciously or more often unconsciously hates the child. The adult takes personally every tantrum or misbehavior that the child expresses. The adult has neither the intelligence nor maturity to look beyond the moment and see the child's frustration or acting out as a need for love and guidance. Instead the child is shown violence which further alienates and distresses the child.
The unfortunate truth about abused children is that we were burdened with worthless parents. We were destined to people who had no use for us other than as objects to be used for releasing their own anger and self-hatred.
At least now we can clearly see their motives and failings. That is something to be thankful for.
We don't have to swallow whole and accept the antiquated party line, "spare the rod, spoil the child." What does that mean anyway? How could parents incapable of loving a child, ever spoil a child? Beating is so much easier than love. I mean, how could anyone possibly love and protect their own child, for god sake? Love is just not normal, beating is the way to go! And why stop at beating? Why not just 'do away' with the little bugger completely and save yourself the energy of having to break out the belt and chase him/her around the room all night.
I'm being sickeningly sarcastic of course, but I remember being beaten or berated to the point at times where I feared for my own life. What a blessing to be alive and able to look back without fear. Hopefully there is a place in hell reserved especially for those who believe it appropriate to dehumanize children.
Alice Miller: Thank you so much for your brave and insightful statement. You are right, unwanted children are usually mistreated. But there exist as a rule also a huge amount of people who were "wanted" indeed, but only for playing the role of the victims that their parents needed to be able to take revenge on. They were wanted to give their parents what the parents never had gotten from their own parents: love, adoration, attention and so many other things. Otherwise, why would so many people have five or more children when they have no time for them? Why do they adopt children if their body refuses to give them what they apparently "want?”
The never acknowledged, never felt pain of their childhood calls for being avenged. They go to church, they pray, they honor their parents, forgive them everything – and they mistreat their children at home, often in a very cruel way, AS IF THIS WERE THE MOST NATURAL THING, because they learned this so early. Their children learn this perverted behavior, also very early, and will later do the same; and so this perverse behavior continues for millennia. Unless people are willing to SEE the perversion of their parents and are ready to consciously refuse to imitate it.
You are not being "sickeningly sarcastic," you only dared to speak out the truth that most people are afraid of seeing or talking about.
Barbara: Your thoughts moved me deeply. Yes, as adults, we do not have to swallow any party line any longer but can stand up against the lies and for the truth that children are human beings with feelings and human rights, worthy of their parents' and society’s respect and protection. It is so common to continue dangerous, inhuman patterns learned in childhood and seems more comfortable than to look at the consequences of cruel actions against children and to learn how the human brain develops and learns, through all of the child’s experiences, not just the mother tongue, but also the parental misbehaviors. Society does not dare to label them correctly but euphemistically disguises them as "discipline" or “for your own good” and does not express indignation at parents and other adults who inflict pain, anguish, violence and abuses that we would call torture if they were committed against adults. So mankind remains stuck in the vicious cycle that the weakest, most defenseless, powerless and helpless human beings are worthy – not of love, oh no – but of beatings and mistreatment. If anyone should be looking at our planet "from above" or another world, s/he must be appalled at our concept of "love" for children and at what we teach them and would loose all hope for mankind's future.
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This is very helpful, Papillion. Thank you. Ami
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I read that one can see the size of the narcissistic wound by the reaction when one tries to put boundaries in place.
Papillon,
This was an awesome post for me, but especially the above quote jumped out at me! Very, very profound, and I have not read this. Wow....
Violet
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Thank you Papillion. Wonderful info
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Hi ann3, she is good value, isn't she? Her dialogues and letters are great. She's so empathetic and validating with her clients.
Hi Violet, and yes, I'm with you.
I read that one can see the size of the narcissistic wound by the reaction when one tries to put boundaries in place.
That seems to stack up to me too. I hadn't read it worded so simply before either, and when I did it certainly fit in with my experience.
Ami, hi :),
It's always nice to read your posts. I'm so sad for and with you about your son. I didn't realize till today exactly what had happened. A thread was there from maybe yesterday or the day before. Can't remember. I read 'how'. I'm so so sorry. I truly hope you can stay in the group you found and get the support you'll need. Your other son, please take care of him. And yourself too. And the bullying, please take care of it - however you can... at this stage. I know I can't even begin to imagine what kind of hell you've been through... and are still going through. I think anything I say is kind of weak, but what I will say is "please take it easy on yourself, and look after yourself, and your son, no matter what bad feelings well up inside you." I'm wondering if you're ever getting out and about - of the housefor walks or something - maybe doing stuff with your boy. I really hope he's okay. I know you've probably been asked this before, but has he had any counselling? Do you have a wider extended family somewhere nearby. Alternate places to go at times, be with people who love you and understand? He doesn't need that rubbish from his father. No-one does.
Please care for yourself and your son Ami,
Papillon
PS - Ami
Have you ever read Rollo May -- he was a christian minister before he became a psychologist. Wikipedia might have some info. I'm posting you a link here re- your question re- daimonic over on Htt's thread. It's an interesting article which rounds it out quite well. It's quite lengthy so maybe just store it for some time later with a cup of tea. It explains it a nice broad and interesting context. Rollo May's stuff would be on Amazon. :D You were pretty close with your linguistic interpretation. Yes ma'am - you certainly were in the right store. Not the right aisle, but definitely the right store, so take a bow.
http://www.depth-psychotherapy-network.com/Professional_Section/Professional_Articles/The_Psychology_of_Evil_by_Stephen_Diamond/The_Psychology_of_Evil_Diamond.htm
Rollo May quote - "Courage is not the absence of despair; it is, rather, the capacity to move ahead in spite of despair.”
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Hi Papillon Thank you so much for posting several letters from Alice Miller's website. I have not posted here before but the very mention of her name caught my interest. Like you, I am in very deep recovery from a childhood filled with serious abuse. (sexual, emotional and physical) Alice Miller's words have been something of an umbrella of protection while I recover from the abuse of two very narcissistic parents. I do have a very warm and empathetic therapist. Up until recently I had very few memories of childhood but now they are bubbling up from the depths of my unconscious and it's so painful, no wonder I didn't want to remember! Overall the worst part of this has been the shattering of my illusion that I was loved because nothing could have been further from the truth. When this happened I felt like I was somewhere on the brink of insanity because so much of my reality was thrown into question. Sometimes it's still hard to believe that my "picture perfect" Southern Baptist parents, whom everyone else thinks so highly of, could have been the monsters they were in the privacy of our "home". It sounds like you are in a similar therapy and it certainly brings a lot of pain as the real reality makes itself visible. Best Wishes James
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Oh Papillion,
Thank you for your caring, thoughtful reply. I have stopped all the abuse in my house, too late,though. No abuse to anyone will be allowed.
My H realized that he has come up against a stronger foe--me.
My other son is doing well, considering the circumstances.He was always able to see the truth of life much better than my younger son, who saw the lies AS truth.
Your quote about facing all of ourselves is my "mission",now.
I have bookmarked the link and will look at it,later.
You and I are on the same path,"You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free."
I am ,almost, free.
I call emotional illness(lies and distortions about ourselves and life) "underwater. When I started on the board,I was 6 feet ,underwater. Now, I am about 7 inches(lol).
The way up is truth ,brutal, raw,but inescapable IF you want to be whole.
Thank you Papillion ,for ALL you give,and it is considerable. Love to you, Ami
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Dear James,
I can hear your pain.It is real and important. You have been betrayed and you are now facing the truth. The truth will heal you if you keep going forward with it, just as you are.
I think that you found the right place ,on the board.
When you come here, people will understand . That has always been a tremendous comfort to me. You will not get "raised eyebrows".
If you do, just ignore it ,and you will find many others who will understand and light the path of healing,for you.
You expressed yourself so well. I can really empathize with your situation and the gravity of your current revelations.
I did not have the religious hypocrisy,and I am thankful for that. I did not have abuse in God's name or under His guise,so I could find Him,as an adult.
Keep sharing,James. Consider writing your story, when you feel able. It is helpful as a starting point to deeper healing(IMO)
Love to you,friend Ami
(((((((James))))))))))))))0
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Hi Ami Thanks for your encouragement and you're right I am in pain...in your words pretty deep underwater but a lot better than where I was 6 months ago. Back then i could hardly get out of bed and for the most part wasn't functioning. When i find the courage i'll write my story, at least what i can, and post it. Right now i'm feeling so much shame especially when it comes to the sexual abuse. I can talk about it with my therapist but it still hurts. I keep thinking i'm a man and this shouldn't have happened and i keep having to remind myself that I was just a little defenseless boy back then. This helps but i'm more often than not very dissociated from what happened. James
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I understand ,James. I think being "underwater" is being dissociated. NONE of it was your fault, man or no man. I "know " they are just words, right now, but I wanted to say them. A Big Hug,James Ami
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Ami...... thanks for the big hug...I feel it! James
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Hi James,
It's horrible what happened to you as a child. Just awful. It's such good news to read you have a good therapist. You're going to need one to deal with this. I think I get what you're saying when you say -
"Overall the worst part of this has been the shattering of my illusion that I was loved because nothing could have been further from the truth. When this happened I felt like I was somewhere on the brink of insanity because so much of my reality was thrown into question."
Man, that's rough. I'm so sorry. The pain of having been a repository for other people's garbage is tragic. Then we've to be the one's to clean it out and get rid of the stench from our lives. It's a sad and hard task, but I think it's worth it. :D Their stories die with them, un-perpetuated, hopefully.
I don't know how angry you've been. My biggest thing was anger and self-destruction, probably. That's why Miller's stuff reaches me. I know I was one angry person. Until I got in touch with who I was really angry at, and why, well.... I was just angry at everybody if I felt they 'reduced/defined/controlled' me. Now I'm feeling pretty okay. Still in therapy though.
I believe it's so important to realize that if we've been abused we have a right to know that. We have a right to be angry. If we don't allow ourselves to go there and work this stuff out, how can we know what our real issues are? If we don't know what our issues are, how can we work with them and bring balance? It's the diamonic again.
Creative healing pain vs Negative/destructive pain. We can't avoid the pain, if it's already been built in there.
I was thinking of you and your post when I posted the Miller quotes on the other thread. Also, I read a really good rant here a while back . It helped me enormously in understanding something in me.
Welcome James
Papillon
“Genuine forgiveness does not deny anger but faces it head-on.”
Alice Miller quote
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Hi Papillon.......My situation sounds similar to yours in the way i carried around a lot of anger/rage.....it also showed up in my self-destructive behavior. I was one angry man too and had good reasons for it. Last summer i suprised myself when i openly raged for 2 hrs at the parents. It was just 6 years ago that my father out of the clear blue tried to choke me. Not a single member of my family found this shocking. My mom just casually said "i don't know why your father does things that". Shocking/weird....complete lack of empathy on her part. What finally sparked the rage was the way my dad had become increasingly aggressive with me (for no reason on my part). I guess I had become healthy enough to finally protect myself and out came it came. Since this incident i don't protect them anymore, at least when i'm aware of it. I understand Miller's take on the importance of this emotion and i'm back on my feet, but lots of overwhelming repressed memories keep floating up. Its a slow process, very painful but i do feel better. When my dissociation is a little less intense i plan on writing my story so i don't have to keep rehashing it here in bits and pieces...... maybe even a "rant". I think i understand Miller's thinking on forgiveness in her quote you posted but for me that possibility lies somewhere down the road. Right now i'm in the stage where i'm beginning to grasp that all the abuse wasn't about me. It's clear that i have been in shock for a long time (Complex PTSD). Hopefully being here will help. James
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Dear James,
I think that you are coming out of denial ,in to the truth. It is slow and scary,but I think you will have people,on the board, who have gone before you and who can light your way.
You are not alone, anymore, James.
You seem to have an inner strength and a "center' that your parents could not destroy. It may be covered over by pain,but is still there, and will emerge over time and facing truth(IMO)
Keep sharing, where you are and how you feel,just as you are! Love to you, Ami
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Hi Ami......it feels good to hear your words and i think you're right. I'm sitting here trying to write my story but the words just won't come. Outside of my therapist's office i don't know if i will ever be able to share some of the things that happened. I feel so much shame. Maybe it's just my fear acting up. Thanks James
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Dear James,
As you heal, I bet that your shame will diminish. When you can see that it was NOT your fault,I think it will not have such a stranglehold on you. All that will take time and you are just at the beginning stages of facing your life.
You are doing so well to be able to even talk about it ,at all.
Many people can never face as much as you have already.
Everything, such as writing your story, will come in time, as you are ready.It does not have to be forced or rushed. I am glad you are here, James. Keep sharing, as you feel comfortable Love to you, Ami
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Hi James,
Wishing you a whole lot better life in the future than you've had in the past. With you taking control and being in therapy I'd say that you have a very good chance.
" It was just 6 years ago that my father out of the clear blue tried to choke me."
What a beast of thing to do. What a beast. It was criminal. Whether anyone likes that word or not, it's true. The guy should have been locked up for a few weeks or months or years.
" Not a single member of my family found this shocking"
Poor dumb foolish unaware people. They don't even recognize violence and abuse when they see it. How the heck would they know or even have the comprehension to understand if they themselves were being abused then? They weren't even shocked by a father trying to choke his son!!!! :shock: :shock: I have this strange belief that fathers are meant to support, validate, respect and encourage their sons. Oh that's right, I just realized, it's just another one of my strange beliefs not reflected in most reality I observe.
"My mom just casually said "i don't know why your father does things that".
Great, just bleeding great. How apathetic can a mother get. An enabler as well. Just feigns "Oh I don't know..." coming on all victim like herself. Talking about her 'confusion' rather than helping you deal with a monster.
Sorry James, I'm not doing too much here but having a whine about your parents and family. Sounds like mine. Just keep going with the therapy and get in touch your inner bitch. That's my advice.
Forgive!!!! Don't even go there!!!!! I had religious forgiveness crap rammed down my throat for years. I forgave, and as a result I got ulcers in my stomach and arthritis. For years.
Then I un-forgave, got angry, moved on, understood them in their own hell. I managed to lose the hatred and anger that I had for them. But I don't forgive them. I don't figure I have to. If they were alive and asked me to, I may. But they aren't so I'm not. Even the christians God doesn't forgive willy nilly everybody apparently - Only when He's asked to.
I'm interested to read more from you, when you're up to it. Just remember, the shame thing, most of it belongs outside, it's from someone else's problem.
Hoping you can take it easy on yourself,
Papillon
"Every time I close the door on reality it comes in through the windows."
Jennifer Unlimited
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Pappilon.....thanks for the booster shot I needed that about right now! your indignation on my behalf feels great. James
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Papillon............Alice posted a letter that i wrote today on her site "Nearly insane" if you want to read. It's pretty cut and dry, just a general overview of my last year or so. I left out the gore. I have corresponded and received letters back from her this year mostly in private.(meaning not published) Her knowledge has been of immense help to me. I've read mountains of material thru the years but nothing really gave me what I wanted till I discovered her work. The research of others was helpful but her's really grabbed me and i put it to the test a little over two years ago, using both her work and my therapist to help. My therapist knows her work well and is healed. It really works. The work of Arthur Janov was very informative and helpful (your're down the road in recovery so most of his work might not be of therapeutic benefit at the moment but it makes for a fascinating read). I would not recommend primal therapy to anyone but during the course of standard therapy i started having lots of Primals. They just came naturally to me. They are beyond comprehension to most people. Alice considers this dangerous now and so do i. You can read her thinking on this in her "Communication to her Readers ". She went thru it also and was injured for a bit. I couldn't help what happened.... i guess my defense system was so leaky and holding back so much pain that when it burst it came down with a crash and i was lost for a good while in the chaos of my feelings. Too much all at once. Glad thats overwith!! I'm here with the intent of reintegrating back into the world of people rather than just standard therapeutic settings. I will finally get my story done with a lot of the gore. exposing it here will help a lot. It's not any worse than others i've read here. Just old fears kicking in a little. Some old dependency/helplessness issues getting stirred up a bit. Overall so much better than i've ever been. My rage really is spent and i see my parents for who they are and know what really happened. James
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You sound really good ,James. You seem to be making the steps toward healing!!! You seemed to have come a long way, James.
I will await your story, whenever you are ready. Warmly, Ami
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Ami....perhaps you could help me out? I know where to post stories but can't seem to find instructions on how to do it. Is it me or is there something missing on instruction here? Mind you i'm one of those people who can never make sense of instructions on anything. Gettin this puter hooked up cost me several therapy sessions related to "instruction anxiety" LOL James
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I know what you mean about the computer(lol).You just go to Member's Stories and then post on there , the same way you do on the regular board. You are doing so well, James !! Ami
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Ami........I looked yesterday but didn't find the right place maybe . I'll try again when i really want to use it. How is your feeling of being "alone" doing today? Is it against rules to post under this thread what i just asked? is that the way things are here?....thanks so much Ami for the help if you still feel alone here's another hug and even if you don't James
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James
Go under Members Stories.Some people mind when the thread veers a little and some don't,but see if you can post your story in Member Stories. if you want.
The hug is much appreciated. I think my aloneness is the "aloneness of the human condition" rather than a situational aloneness--bleh to BOTH of them(lol) Ami
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Hi James,
Well, you really are pro-active in getting yourself put right way up. I like your "if not me - who?" attitude. Just fabulous. I'm looking forward to going and reading your letter at the AM site.
I was reading somewhere earlier where you posted about the other therapist. :shock: scarey. It's great that you have a healed one. So vital too.
You can post wherever you want, doesn't worry me, just that the member's area is just for you. Nobody interrupts or comments on your thread. It's just for you. That's good isn't it? You can go back anytime, add, edit, delete anything.
Primal therapy - not my bag. I think I thought if I got into it I might not ever come back out again. I used to be a big screamer in teen years, it was how I self-soothed myself to exhaustion to ease/numb the pain. Now I prefer to think/relax/think/feel/relax........................./
You seem to have a good understanding of a few therapies, and have a good grasp of the language. It's sad that we need to have all this information, isn't it? But great that it's out there to be had.
Alice Miller's material on the ridiculous common absurd too-oft-replicated scenario of life - when babies and children come into a family, it is them who provide the unconditional love. They provide only unconditional love to the parents, whether the parent's are worthy of it or not. It's sad that so often too many people who have children just don't 'get it' and do it the other way round, the right way round. Parent's unconditionally loving the children, as well.
Yes, it should have been the other way round for us, folks.
It's good chatting with you James. I'm slowly working my way through your posts, and I'll read your story when you post it.
Papillon
A happy childhood lasts a lifetime
Alice Miller
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Papillon........you're right its very sad so many of us have to struggle the way we do in order to have something of a life. My therapeutic journey came close to being the central focus of everything i did because of overwhelming pain. Janov's work is perhaps some of the most important i've ever read as far as understanding the body/brain and how neurosis develops etc etc and is cured. His findings can be applied to easier forms of therapy in my opinion. It has very little to do with screaming. I'm sorry Janov named his first book using scream... scared a lot of people away and tarnished it's importance. It's a very quick way to open the unconscious. These experiences are hard to imagine for anyone who has never experienced it. Glad mine is over and it does work for some but there have been several suicides and people becoming psychotic after they found the realities that were repressed often in living color. sights sounds smells faces everything frozen in time just as it was.... repressed in the brain.........regards James
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James, hi
Just wanted to pop off a quick reply to you, and let you know I'm very encouraged by your words to AM. I particularly felt the depths of pain in this:
"What I discovered based on my experience is this. The first and most important illusion shattered was my illusion of being loved. This realization eventually almost entirely imploded a defense system unconsciously constructed in childhood. Very, very painfully. From my experiences i believe every child conceived is hardwired for survival. True love and its expression is the mechanism on the part of the parents/caregivers to ensure this. The infant WILL KNOW if this is forthcoming. Any disruption of infant needs being met, or cruelty, can spark an unimaginable existential terror of death in the childs mind and due to it's helplessness the unconscious mind activates and tries to ensure survival as best it can. Illusions form, needs become perverted etc."
I agree very much with these words. I also think that this repeats itself, in relationships in later life, if left not dealt with and understood.
I think so much pain in adult relationships comes from the same type of existential terror. Illusions form, then disaster. Suddenly the results of a experiencing a 'reality check' when we realize we have 'adult enmeshments' rather than healthy adult relationships. This was my experience anyway. Most of my adult relationships either seemed, or were, illusory in one sense or another.
I sometimes think it would have been better to have the experience of 'raging' at my parents. This wasn't to be the case.
I've done other certain things that helped though to substitute. For example, I've changed my name.
I don't honor their memory in any way at all. I never talk about them if possible, I truly have no desire to. If I need to, it's in the briefest of detail. I most certainly don't honor the date of my birth. I've chosen another date for that which holds a very precious and special significance for me, and makes me feel like singing 'happy birthday' to myself.
My parents have faded into an ignominious nothingness in my current life. That's probably much more than either of them deserve.
After much expensive therapy, I think I'm mostly over them.
I've developed an art form of precluding their mention in my daily life. This was just a part of my own peculiar form of healing rage. It seems have acted as a type of purgative so far, along with a few other things. I haven't any disturbances within myself about adopting these measures. Although if some inner-disturbance does appear I'd see somebody. I know now that I have somebody reliable I can go to to talk about these things with.
None of that negates the importance of the fact that I had to go through a process of getting it all out, letting it all settle, and then lletting it all go first though. Then it seems as if the wounds were bandaged, and checked regularly, and kept clean.
I suspected your grasp of psycholgy had some study associated. It's extremely interesting that so many of greatest psychology theoriticians had severe emotional disturbances, which was what led them into that field of study and practice in the first place.
Thankyou for allowing me the opportunity to read your letter to AM. I was also greatly relieved to discover that your letter wasn't the letter by the other J, the correspondence in regard to 'fetish and healing'.
Papillon
The ideal condition would be, I admit, that men should be right by instinct; but since we are all likely to go astray, the reasonable thing is to learn from those who can teach”
Sophocles
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Hi Papillon....thanks for the note. iIve had a crap day thought i had rid myself of a lot of baggage maybe i have and the next step is looming. I don't know at the moment I posted the sexual abuse thread thinking it might be a big step. It was but more like a hole. It released a tidal wave of emotions i wasn't prepared for. I wrote some of my story and posted . Some i doubt i will ever share. Maybe it isn't even important for my stay here. I had little emotion when writing just some of the facts. Been dealing with the other all day long too long. Interesting thing I thought my rage was spent. Fooled myself again. Got a taste today of more and this is maybe bigger and deeper than the other. PS... Changing my name has run thru my mind many times.... .. James
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This Alice Miller thread inspired me to face my rage against my M. When Ann told me that my M had stolen my core b/c my M wanted to stay safe and my core could be too smart and show her up, I felt rage.
I called my M, today, and told her. Of course, she has an "answer" for everything,being a therapist(lol)
However, I put the "wrongdoing" back on her, as the Alice Miller thread said. I feel more whole and more sane!
Thank you, Papillion for bringing Alice Miller to the board. Ami
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You know, parts of myself are clicking back in as I see my M as "bad" and NOT me. I was never "bad", but SHE was. I was normal and human. She imposed the concept of "bad" on me by excoriating me for normal emotions and feelings like taking care of myself(ie selfishness) .
Ami
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hey Ami....glad your finding some of that justified rage. It does help. It sets free your minds ability to distinguish between your feelings and hers. no longer the need to protect and cover up injustice as one loses fear of the parent by discovering our rage. IMO Miller's model for therapy does work. James
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Hi James,
Hi Papillon....thanks for the note. iIve had a crap day thought i had rid myself of a lot of baggage maybe i have and the next step is looming. I don't know at the moment I posted the sexual abuse thread thinking it might be a big step. It was but more like a hole. It released a tidal wave of emotions i wasn't prepared for. I wrote some of my story and posted . Some i doubt i will ever share. Maybe it isn't even important for my stay here. I had little emotion when writing just some of the facts. Been dealing with the other all day long too long. Interesting thing I thought my rage was spent. Fooled myself again. Got a taste today of more and this is maybe bigger and deeper than the other. PS... Changing my name has run thru my mind many times.... .. James
I wasn't surprised you had a crap day. The pain you feel from these injuries is valid. And when you recount the other people's sh@#%x, well, hey. The pain that that has caused you, well that is a crap day in anyone's opinion.
I'm so glad you toughed it out though. High 5 for you!
It's understandable that it is so painful for you James.
Gosh. I'm so glad that you're still with us talking!!!!!!!!!!! That is so fantastic.
It's sad to read how you've mangled a few relationships. Unfortunately ----- 'it's what we do'. You're talking to the expert here. I know.
That is, till we get better. Until then....... :( mangling, unfortunately, comes with the territory. Thanks ma and pa!!!!! :x
But it will change, for the better. Just stay in therapy and stay connected to your purpose........ which is to get all the poison out. As painful as that is.
That was one mother of a snake that bit you. High 5 again.
You're allowed to talk about the pain.
Surprised and relieved that you're still alive bro'.
Papillon
Quote from another great James,
People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all.
People talk about how great love is, but that's bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing.
People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel?
Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio.
You feel your strength in the experience of pain.
It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters.
Pain is a feeling.
Your feelings are a part of you.
Your own reality.
If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality.
You should stand up for your right to feel your pain.”
Jim Morrison of 'The Doors'
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. My only "map" out of "emotional and mental illness(self diagnosed-lol) was the "truth". ,'You shall know the truth and the truth will MAKE you free'". I am almost well. I am about 5 inches,under the "water".
Every day, truths about myself and life "click" in,like long lost parts of the puzzle, which they are. Ann said my compass was not lost,but stolen, as Papillion said on Steve's thread about possession.
Ann told me that my M ,purposely, tried to keep me off balance.She tried to twist me around so much that I lost my center and compass. Then,I went in to the world ,lost.
I see that my M did do it on purpose.However, on a larger level, it was part of her "sickness".
I keep Alice Miller ,in mind, and am facing MY rage.
I saw today that she stole my "inner self" ,down to the simplest details. Today,I realized that I can impose order in my life. *I* can impose the "rules"(boundaries) as *I* see fit. I do have "power".
My M stole my ability to protect myself, to set boundaries so I could be safe. I need them in order to live well. Now,I have to take them back.
Thanks Papillion, for those new ideas. Warmly, Ami
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Papillon....I'm not sure i really survived it. i guess the heavy dissociation i carry has been my protection but its frustrating in itself. The last two days have been very tough a whole Lot of feelings. I seem to have two types. Either i'm in machine mode where i don't feel much of anything, at least consciously, or complete overwhelm. They both feel pretty lousy. I do want to run, its tough staying here. I've been running from my past all my life but unfortunately its always with me. I've had enough. It's really nothing of a life for me as long as i continue this way. The most intense feeling i'ved had so far occurred a little earlier. I felt this weird feeling in my throat and finally i just let it out and it said "help me" and it filled my mind and consciousness with the reality of my early child. A very dark place. There was never anyone to hear that. In fact when this feeling came i found a little insight where i knew that help me equaled hopelessness. I never asked anyone. It was always helping them. Anytime I needed anything my parents were totally disgusted so asking for help became a fearful thing in my mind. Just saying those words forced a small bit of my past into reality. very painfully. James
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(((((((((((James))))))))))) BIG Hug, Ami
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I had a breakthrough ,which started with the Alice Miller thread, so I wanted to share it,here. I got in touch with my rage against my M. Ann, my counselor, helped,also.
Then, I expressed it to my M.
I realized that the 'bad"she put on me, had to go back on her. I realized that I had hated and negated myself for my whole life for being "bad". My best friend helped me to see what "bad" was, exactly. It was taking care of myself, being self protective and having my own power. That was it. That was "bad".
So, I gave that back, symbolically, to my M by telling her that I was not "bad". SHE put all those lies on me and she was getting them back on her,now, where they belonged.
Today, I realized that I don't have to have that deep self hatred anymore. I feel free!!!
When I am really stuck, SOMEONE will come "out of the blue" and give me a special touch.
It has been Iphi,who always wrote words of comfort on my moaning posts, Lise, who came out of the blue , when I was so lost, GS, who felt a special urge to help me with Scott, Kelly,who understood that your inner child just has to moan, sometimes,Bean, who is a buddy,and you,Papillion, who has been through deep,deep healing and has come to the other side.
Thank you so much Ami
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I cannot tell you the rage I have against my H. I saw what happened with Scott. I have been seeing pieces of the puzzle and then the puzzle came together.
Ann showed me that my H was an N,just like my M. *I* fit in to the relationship b/c I had no self, or very little. I "normalized' abnormal behavior b/c my M stole my compass. My Aunt still has her compass, so her life went on a more orderly course. She captained HER ship. When I ask her advice, her compass answers and so she can navigate situations.
My M made sure that my compass had the needle "screwy', so I headed off in to nooks and crannies that no one with a good compass would have.
I faced that my H is an N. I feel like I am in "Rosemary's Baby", when she sees that ALL the people are in the coven. *I* was in the coven ,too, b/c I had no self. That was my entry .
Now, I feel like I am getting a self. I am NOT bad.
I am feeling the rage against my H. It is a blind rage that is making my whole body shake.
I gave up ,on life, and "gave" Scott over to my H.I stopped fighting to bring truth to the house,as I had before.
Scott is safe,now. I see my H. I hate him so much that words fail me, BUT ,in the end,I know, that he was a victim, too. *I* was a victim, my M was and he was.
For right now,I think I would murder him, if I did not have a locked room where I could hide . Ami
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Am-I prefer the word lament over moan! It is on my favorite words list. When I read your words I feel your rage! I understand you because you have lived with a soul steeler too. There women! I wrote an essay which is VERY cathartic. I want to make four hard copies of it and have my m and my dad and my aunt all read it. I will be reading it as well. Then after they all read it let the discussion begin. Wonder if she would hate me more for speaking the truth?
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Kelly. Wonder if they would hate you for speaking the truth????? Probably(LOL) Ami
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Not THEY. Her! Deny Deny Deny
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They ARE clueless, Kelly. I am seeing that with my H. I may have given away my core, but at least I do have one ,which CAN grow and learn. I have empathy, Thank God, as YOU do. The true N's don't. Ami
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I had a really wonderful thing happen with my M . The Alice Miller thread was the catalyst.
I told my M that the belief that I was "bad" was HERS, not mine. I needed to give it back to her.
She took it. I can't really believe it,but she did. She owned that she has always seen ME,as her sister,of whom she was very,very jealous. She used to call me 'Norma", her sister's name.
She took out the rage for her sister on me. She owned that she had made me feel like I was "bad" when I was just 'human"
I feel better. I know that she loves me. I feel a sense that I can love myself, after all this time and all this pain.
I feel different inside.
Ami
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Wow Ami what a breakthru!! James
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Yeah, James. YOU are doing what I did. Just keep facing yourself as honestly as you can, using honesty as your beacon. The Bible promises that the truth will set us free. I am finding that it is ,indeed, true.
God wlll bring you special people on the board and in real life ,to help. I call them "angels" . I have had many .
Lying is what killed Scott and will hurt all of us. Truth burns away the lies and sets us free. Love and a Big Hug, Ami