Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dawning on August 02, 2004, 10:20:46 AM
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Hi everyone. I came back from an evening with a new therapist. He is alot different from the other one (he is an M.D. , the former one had an Ed.D) and is keen to prescribe meds. Unfortunately, my insurance is not going to pay for any of this but that's another story. In the 45 minutes we talked, he decided I should take 5 mgs of Prozac to start out with and build up the dosage. To tell you the truth, I really don't like the idea of taking anti-depressants unless they are going to help me build my confidence.
I know I have confidence issues. I know that I need to learn to value myself even in the face of bullying and disrespect. If taking a pill would help with this, I would definitely be game but maybe there is another way.
Also, I am afraid these meds will stifle my creativity. I am starting to share my creativity with others, getting over stage fright and the fear of condemnation and I don't want these meds to make me anti-social. I want the confidence to go out and meet new people. I don't want to learn to be happily anti-social on these drugs or develop a dependence on them.
I just kissed my father-figure of 6 years goodbye last week. And was told recently by someone else that he will "never fall in love with me" but wants me to stay put and not leave the city.
So, enough is enough I said to myself. I put myself in these situations because I don't have confidence in what I need and how to go about getting my needs met. Then, when I get close to feeling confident, I pull back and question myself, doubt myself.
Ideally, I'd like a confidence pill that I take only for a short period of time, get my confidence back and carry on. And if that pill can help me get over one person in particular and make me not *miss* him so much then I would gladly hand over a large portion of my savings. :lol:
Any comments on the topic of how to *get* confidence back? Is there one type of med that is better for this than others? I would also be interested in hearing any stories on the topic of confidence or lack of it due to Nparents. It is like I don't feel a right to have confidence in myself and I hate that program but it is hard one to uninstall.
Funnily, since my emotional separation from my N family began in earnest at the end of March, I feel I've made alot of progress. But now I am stuck in a place and I think that if I had more confidence in myself and my future, I could get unstuck more easily. Anyway, I am smoking too many ciggies and thinking too much about the past and mistakes I've made. I'm obsessing over my mistakes to the point where I cannot clean my flat. Yikes! Or eat properly.
I know this post is all over the place. I'm sorry if it is hard to follow.
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Hi Dawning,
The struggle with finding the right doctor and/or the right meds can be so stressful. It is hard because you trust them as an authority on the subject, and yet you may be the only one who knows whats best for you. Some docs are perscription happy, and others try to avoid it. I have struggled to find where I stand on the continuum. Personally I am open to meds, but I fear becoming dependant on them too.
I am not chornically depressed. But sometimes circumstances in my life have made it necessary for me to be on something temporarily. Then there are gray areas, when I could go either way. There is always the worry of side effects. When I have started something, I wonder if what I am feeling is a side effect of just part of my own problem. It can be so confusing and scary. I don't have any great advice. Just saying you are not alone. I can empathize.
It sounds like you are grieving a loss right now. That is bound to cause some depression and lack of confidence. I bet you will gradually heal. But, depending on the depression, meds might help for the time being.
Lack of confidence is a problem sometimes linked with depression. So, a drug might help a little. But in the end, I think it is the self imposed therapy of continually pushing what you think are the limits to your abilities. N parenting can cause depression and lack of confidence. I have certainly experienced this. My parents have always been so overprotective. They struggle with self esteem themselves. Of course, it must be hard to give your kids what you don't have yourself. The other day my dad told me that my uncle was impressed with me (intellectually). Then dad laughed. I couldn't tell if he was proud or if he was thinking "you got him fooled!" Maybe a bit of both. This time I didn't internalize the negative message. I grew up not thinking I was smart, and I really wound up selling myself short. The good news, I guess, is that I am slowly discovering my potential, and slowly gaining confidence.
Good luck on your journey... I hope you find clarity and healing.
peace!
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You might get some confidence if you tell this therapist that you aren't going to take Prozac.
I take meds and for me they are great. They don't stifle any creativity. But I wouldn't like a therapist immediately telling me to take them, especially if they aren't covered by my insurance! This therapist sounds like a bit of a loose cannon to me.
bunny
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Hi Dawning,
I relate to many things you wrote. I agree with both guest and Bunny.
Guest mentions that a break-up can cause a lot of lack of confidence. Very true. When I broke up with my N partner about a year ago, I plummeted emotionally. I already had some confidence/esteem issues, and this magnified them all. I thought I was going to have a complete breakdown, something I never would have dreamed would happen to me in my life.
Just like you, I felt if I had more confidence I could get unstuck easier. But then I kind of realized that these kinds of big turning point experiences (loss of a big relationship) completely floor even those who are very confident. It is just a very difficult time- period, especially if you are not good with big change (I don't like it), but no matter what.
Hoping you will not beat yourself in thinking that you "should" be able to get more confident and "get on with things". That truly makes sense as a goal to have, but there is genuine grieving you are entitled to go through, and the path to getting more confident is a up-down-hilly one, too.
I'm on that very path of trying to build confidence/esteem now, and it feels really scary, hopeless, and overwhelming sometimes. I know that is not helping :!: but what I want to finish with, is that in-between all of that, somehow growth is happening, hope is getting renewed, and the self is getting rebuilt. :)
Even as hard as things are right now, I do believe that.
I've had the medication dilemma as well, so many times in the past years. I haven't ever taken any yet, but came close to taking either an anti-anx. or anti-dep. at the end of my break-up with xN a year ago.
I have that nagging once again now (to maybe try xanax) because of the job thing, but I think I am just too much of a chicken to do it.
I agree with Bunny that the prescrip. offering of prozac seemed premature.
You could always decline for now if you like, continue to do non med. therapy with this person, and take things as they come. You could also begin doing your own research re. meds, online, and join some depression and/or anti anx. groups to read the archives (and participate if you wanted). They often discuss meds (efficacy, side effects, etc.) in these groups.
Wishing you well...
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Thanks for these replies.
Guest wrote:
When I have started something, I wonder if what I am feeling is a side effect of just part of my own problem. It can be so confusing and scary.
I wonder that too and worried that they might effect the potential for increased self-awareness in a negative rather than positive way. I don't want to end up like a somnambulist. But, at this point, I need a push to clean my apt. and stop obsessing over my mistakes. I feel like I am in a
flood of some sort now and - while I am not drowning - I do want to be more in control of my life. Thank you for your empathy.
But in the end, I think it is the self imposed therapy of continually pushing what you think are the limits to your abilities.
Yes, the *pushing* analogy. But in order to push myself, I need more self-control and motivation to do things even when I don't want to do them. Yes, the break-up, yes...the grieving over a loss...that is the part that seems to be getting me stuck over and over again.
Bunny wrote:
But I wouldn't like a therapist immediately telling me to take them, especially if they aren't covered by my insurance! This therapist sounds like a bit of a loose cannon to me.
Hi Bunny. He is very well-qualified. However, sessions are expensive, last 45 minutes and not covered by my insurance. I told him yesterday that I've been having trouble cleaning my apt, eating and sleeping properly and I've been smoking too many ciggies. He wrote out a prescription for tranquilizers, prozac and a nicotine patch.
He might be a loose cannon but at least he is aggressive and takes action. I wish I had found him 5 years ago - or someone as aggressive - cause the woman I stayed with in pychotherapy did absolutely nothing except give me some strategies for dealing with my Nmom. I've learned more on this board since the beginning of April than I learned in the 4 years with the former therapist. She seemed like she was going to die or fall asleep in her chair whereas this guy seems really umm.....energetic. Maybe a little too trigger happy with the meds though.
I'm glad to hear they don't stifle your creativity. Thanks, Bunny.
But, if my insurance is not going to cover any of this stuff, then I might have to do without just out of financial concerns. :roll:
Hi BT! :)
Hoping you will not beat yourself in thinking that you "should" be able to get more confident and "get on with things". That truly makes sense as a goal to have, but there is genuine grieving you are entitled to go through, and the path to getting more confident is a up-down-hilly one, too.
Thanks for this. I know that I want immediate results. I feel as though I haven't trusted the right people all my life and now I don't have time to mess around with incompetents, charlatans masquerading as who-knows-what. HA. But I need a little support right now - hence my desire for a confidence pill. Wishful thinking.
somehow growth is happening, hope is getting renewed, and the self is getting rebuilt.
I look at it as a lizard growing a new tail. HAHAHA.
and join some depression and/or anti anx. groups to read the archives (and participate if you wanted). They often discuss meds (efficacy, side effects, etc.) in these groups.
I would like to know where some of these groups might be located or what words to google if anyone feels comfortable sharing this information.
We'll see how it goes in the next week. Thanks for your support.
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I had a friend explain anti-dep meds to me once. She is a ob-gyn. But for me she is just a good friend. She said,
It's kind of like when you get very cold, to a point your body can generate heat, you come out of the cold and you warm up pretty quickly. But on rare occassions, people get very cold. So cold in fact, that their body can no longer generate enough heat to rewarm them. In this situation, warm blankets, warm water etc must be utilized to help the body get back to an equilibrium. It takes an outside effect to bring the body warmth back.
She continued by drawing the analogy, when you body gets low on seritonin, it can usually regenerate what it needs. But in some situations you have stressed youself so much that you cannot re-fill that "bucket" of seritonin. Anit-dep drugs, can help you to get back on top of things. Help your body to get back to an equilibrium so that you can "warm" yourself naturally.
I don't know if this is helpful, but is one way to consider anti-depressants.
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Hi Dawning:
This group (below) is a very warm, welcoming bunch of people. You can ask any medication questions there. Someone I know has been a member for years, and speaks very highly of it.
If you want, you can search the group archives for former discussions regarding medications. Though it is is called "anxiety-L" it is also a group for depression.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Anxiety-L/
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For this one, scroll down to the heading “Depression and Anxiety Medications”....
http://depressionforums.com/forum/ikonboard.cgi
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This is an active one, discussing depression & anxiety medications
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/depression-anxiety/
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In general, you can google with keywords like: medications for depression (or anxiety if that is what you'd like), depression forums (groups, mailing lists), the name of a specific drug only, the drug plus "side effects" (i.e. Prozac side effects), the drug+ forums (i.e. prozac discussion forums), the drug plus "pros and cons". Any combos you can think of, related to specifically what you'd like to know.
Hope it helps a little.
BT :)
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Thanks for the links, Blue Topaz. :) I went to a few discussion boards too. Prozac/anti-deps sound like a hassle. Maybe I'll try power-yoga. :lol: If my insurance paid for any percentage of it, it would be different but no...
Guest wrote:
But sometimes circumstances in my life have made it necessary for me to be on something temporarily.
This is the ideal situation for me. I only want to be on something temporarily. I wonder about getting on/getting off anti-deps :?: And whether I could do it by myself or would I need a doctor's assistance.... :?: and could I just try them out for a month or would it take longer to see the results :?:
If anyone feels comfortable answering, I would be grateful.
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Hi Dawning :D CG here. CG, like those initially do you? Makes ya' think of cigareete doesn't it? It does me. hahahahhahahaha :D I gotta say, " I don't know about meds in the first instance!" Maybe the good doctor is good! :D How do you know? :shock: Wannatrytalkinaboutinsteadfirst?
That's always been my first port of call. Talkin my head off. flop, there. It just rolled over the floor. I've never been on meds, so what do I know! :shock: But, hahah I probbbbbbbabbbbbly shoulda been. :?
Anyway, the offers there Dawning. I'm sure a lotta people here with a lot more experience than me would wanna talk to ya'. (((((((((((D))))))))))))
Regardless D :D , thinking about you with warmth :D , and so sorry :( that you're in this dilemna. Life doesn't always have to suck this bad you know. It can be okay if we let it be, and if we're happy to just be us regardless of the consequences. Oh shutup CG :x . Stop philosophising now :x . This minute, or you're out of here. Oh., um, Okay :( !
CG :D
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Dawning,
I'm glad the therapist is active rather than a wet blanket. I can now understand his quick writing of prescriptions. That's what MDs do. I hope he also talked to you as a therapist, even about your feelings of apprehension on medicine dependency.
To get off meds, you absolutely need medical supervision. Most of these meds have withdrawal symptoms. But with a doctor's supervision, you can avoid withdrawal. And yes, you can try it for a while and stop. But the doctor has to help you. It's not a big deal, I've done it. I've even stopped on my own and had withdrawal (I don't recommend it).
Anyway, good luck with this therapist.
The main way to get confidence is to take reasonable action (as opposed to impulsive action) when you're usually passive and let things happen to you.
bunny
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This is the ideal situation for me. I only want to be on something temporarily. I wonder about getting on/getting off anti-deps And whether I could do it by myself or would I need a doctor's assistance.... and could I just try them out for a month or would it take longer to see the results
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Dawning,
Several AD's take roughly between 2 & 6 weeks to work, and you need to taper (slowly reduce dosage) under Dr. supervision, when you want to stop taking them.
You might want to consider that if the drug is wrong for you and you are having difficult side effects, you still have to keep taking the taper doses for some weeks.
I am not against those meds. by any means but if thankfully, though things are really difficult, you are not completely debilitated by the dep., and are not very seriously at the risk of suicide, I would say that if you want to try the power yoga or anything else you can think of first, it might be a way to go.
You will know in your mind that AD's will always be there as an option.
I was so struck by the responses when I'd ask advice whether I should try a med. in forums with those already taking them. By far, I was told that unless I absolutely had to (my life was in danger if I didn't), don't. And this advice was from people who were very successfully taking them. Where the AD's were working for them.
If you decide to read more about meds., you will come to know more about what is involved with taking them. There are many things to consider.
Hope you have a good day, and are maybe able to do at least a little a bit of house cleaning. I have felt like that too, and in hindsight I could see it was a step in the healing/processing of something very emotionally challenging for me (the ending of my relationship with xN). I needed to go through a period of obsessive thinking in order to process things and be able to sum them up in some kind of way that would help me move on.
It felt like I was getting stuck there too, but I saw that so many other people went through the identical thing (communicated via discussion boards) and were concerned they were stuck too, but they were just processing during that time. They all never thought they'd come out of it, but did. I thought the exact same, and came out of it, too.
After about 2 & 1/2 weeks, though I was far from finished with obsessive thinking bouts (more spaced out & shorter after), I was able to clean up this darn place! :) And boy, at that point, did I ever have my work cut out for me. :shock:
Take care...
BT
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Hi,
(this is guest from the first response)
I just want to echo Bunny. The first time I got off something, I had help tapering. I went in after a week and reduced it, then went in again, and reduced again. Even though I had pills left, the doc had to call in a new perscription for a lower number of miligrams to take every other day... It had to be very gradual. Every medicine is different.
THe second time I did it myself. I was not near a doc, and I knew the side effects were not worth the help. I was already on a low dose and thankfully, I knew to tapper. So, I reduced the dosage over two weeks. It worked out, but I feel much better about it under the supervision of a doc.
I have confidence you will find your way through this. In the end you won't be dependant on drugs. You know, people fear that. I have feared that, for sure. But I tell myself, that if I am dependant on drugs for the rest of my life, and the quality of my life is better, than I am glad I have them. If the quality of life is not better over time, you always have the choice of a new approach.
Peace
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Hi D. :D Just my thoughts. :D And then chuck them out if you wanna. :D My intentions are good. :D Hope not to ofend anyone here on your thread Dawning. :D
I'm kinda opposed to the idea of a pill for everything. Somethings, to me anyway, are just life. :( And very sad truths of life. :( And to me, pills are for sickness.
Expecting to get shot it the head about now. :D Oh well, too bad, I'll recover. :D But I wanted to say......
Anti-depressants. Oh boy. I've seen a lot. And the problems are still there, mostly, at the end of the day. Yeah, I've read about new brain cell and the brain regeneration theory. But the point is, aren't you emotionally depressed. And doesn't this have to do with childhood issues? And what worries me is that if you charge yourself up on pills and and slide over the rainbow to that beautiful pill-powered world, what happens when you have to return in a month or two. And come down. And the childhood issues are still there. :( Oh well, you may have clean and painted flat, but what then? Aren't the messy flat, ciggies, and poor diet just a reflection of your internals and issues? Telling you how you really feel? Why reject that? It's all bbout your 'lot' that you're unhappy with, isn't it? otherwise you wouldn't feel like this. Well isn't it the 'lot' that has to change and should take a pill? Fix the 'lot' and the others will follow.
It's taken how long for these problems to accumulate and surface? Can it be fixed in a month on pills?
What happens if you're 'other-personed' on pills, in hyper-denial about your 'lot'. Then what when you have to go off them?
I remember that funny Cheech and Chong skit.
"I was so hungry and stoned and there was no food in the fridge.
And when I came down the fridge was gone."
Just my thoughts D. Seeing as it's been sparked by a love issue, and not a psychotic or shizophrenic or delusional one.
Not knockin' anyone on meds. Pleeeeease. Just talkin' to D. :D
Hey, did you get your bike back? ((((((((((((D))))))))))))))
CG
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CG,
I take anti-depressants and being OFF OF THEM IS LIKE TAKING DRUGS. Being on them feels like normality.
The medications do NOT solve any problems. They aren't supposed to be "happy pills." They are there to help my severe high-strungness which makes it hard for me to function. I feel normal when taking them. Not happy. Not like everything is just fine. Only normal.
I think being judgmental about anti-depressants is very common. I resisted taking them for years because of my own negative judgments. But they've given me a normal life I never thought I'd have.
With that said, I don't think they are for everyone because some people have side-effects from them.
bunny
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Thanks to everyone who has replied about meds and about confidence. I'm planning to set up bi-weekly appts with this therapist and discuss other options to taking prozac.
Bunny, your advice about taking reasonable action was a gem - I think so too. Why I am so impulsive at times is a mystery to me. Something to discuss with the therapist. I wish I could afford to see him weekly.
I found out there is an Ashtanga Yoga class in my neighborhood. I hear it is more physical than Hatha or Iyengar (the other types I've tried) so I am gonna go for it. The pain is getting manageable as I've allowed myself to feel. But the anger is coming up now and it seems to be harder for me to deal with.
Phoenix, your explanation of the physiological connection with confidence was incredible interesting. May I ask where you learned that? I am really interested in liberating myself through the body-mind connection. I think there is something there worth exploring.
Hi CG! :)
Hey, did you get your bike back?
Nope, it was stolen while I was euphoric on the swing. Think there is a hidden msg in that incident. I ended up buying a new one. Then, I lost the keys for a few days (yes, both key still on the same ring) but found them yesterday so could go unlock the new one. :oops: :roll:
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Hi D. CG here :D How are you going?
I found out there is an Ashtanga Yoga class in my neighborhood. I hear it is more physical than Hatha or Iyengar (the other types I've tried) so I am gonna go for it. The pain is getting manageable as I've allowed myself to feel. But the anger is coming up now and it seems to be harder for me to deal with.
Yoga is totally excellent dude! What's Ashtanga Yoga? I do/did/do :oops: Yoga (not as often as I'd like, spank myself with a feather :D ). I found with so much to do I can't get to classes. So I bought a set of videos a few years ago put them on when I can duh uh :? remember. Meditation and relaxation techniques calm the spirit/soul/mind/psyche/innards/gutbrain/whatever :? Greatly!
You said above, but the anger is coming. I've read here and elsewhere some good stuff about the purpose of anger, it's all part of the healing process. And anger can, yes can be positive. And, oh boy, but :!: it's such a yukky stage that needs to be worked through. :( So people often shut out/down at this stage because it's so awful. Who likes feeling angry? :x And it's such a very delicate stage, it's important to not let it completely control us so that we do things to make our matters worse and give ourselves more headaches to deal with and mess to clean up. :oops: I was talking to myself there D. :D
Sitting in anger :( That's what happens with some people who've gone back to their old workplace after being fired, and with a gun. :shock: They go into those huge depressions, followed by massive anger and then just sit in the anger till TILT! :shock: That's extreme analogizing, but you know what I mean.
A friend in my early teen years (Mavis) had an awfully litle shrunken raging alcoholic mother who'd come home drunk and wake her up and abuse her late at night. :( In know cause I slept there a few times. Scarey. Mavis would be constantly in this cycle of depression and anger. All depressed and crying one day, then raging the next. And she'd be so angry at her mum, :evil: :( and sad for her mum, and loved her mum, and looked aftere her mum, but couldn't show her anger to her mum. It was because cause her mum scared her. hell, she scared me. :(
So then because Mavis couldn't get angry at her mother, she would find relief by cutting herself. And round and round it'd go again. Us, her friends would be there banging on the bathroom door because she was in there with a razor. She never did really big cuts. But lot's of surface ones though. Lot's of blood. Enough to get her admitted to hospital for a day or 2, and out of home for while. Then she'd seem okay for a while, and it would build up again. Extremely stressful stuff. Anyway, I'm kinda of topic now ans using an extreme analogy again, but the stuff I'm about to type out helped me (recently) work out why Mavis used to do it.
I was reading this recently from someone. A bit long but it's good stuff. About the healing process. I've sort of just taken a bit out of the middle for you, and you too P :D . It's really good to understand the healing process in such simple easy to understand form.
Hey P :arrow: over here, it's CG, talking to D. :D hahahahahahah
Here goes and forgive any typo's everybody. 'Typo' is my middle name.
Shock and Depression.
If all this is shocking to you, that's great because shock is the beginning of grief . After shock comes depression and then denial. Denial kicks our ego defenses back in.
It usually comes in the form of bargaining. We say "Well, it really wasn't that bad. I had 3 square meals a day and a roof over my head."
Please believe me: It was really bad.
To be spiritually wounded, for your parents not to let you be who you are, is the worst thing that can happen to you. I'll bet when you got angry you were told, "Don't you ever raise your voice to me again."
From this you learned that it wasn't okay to be yourself, and it certainly wasn't okay to be angry. The same with fear sadness and joy. It wasn't okay to touch your vagina or penis, even thought it felt great.
It wasn't okay to dislike the Reverend Herkimer, Rabbi Kradow, or Father Walch. It wasn't okay to think what you were thinking, to want what you wanted, to feel what you feel, or to imagine what you imagined.
At times it wasn't okay to see what you saw, or to smell what you smelled. It wasn't okay to be differnet or to be you
To accept and understand what I'm saying is to validate and legitimize your spiritual wound, which is what lies at the core of every wounded inner child.
Anger
The next feeling that usually comes up in grieving is anger. It's a legitimate response to the spiritual wound. While your parents probably did the best they could, in original pain work your parents intentions are never relevant. What is relevant is what actually happened.
(D & P :D , that line above cured me of the constant 'whying' I was always driving myself nuts with. Why why why why why? I'd nearly drive myself nuts with all those questions that I could/would never get a straight answer to.)
Imagine that they were backing out of the driveaway and accidentally ran over your leg. You've been limping for all these years and you've never known why.
Do you have a right to know what happened to you? Do you have a right to be hurt and in pain over it? The answer to both questions is an unequivocal yes. It's okay to be angry, even if what was done to you was unjintentional.
In fact, you have to be angry if you want to heal your wounded inner child. I don't mean you need to scream and holler (althought you might). It's just okay to be mad about a dirty deal. I don't even hold my parents responsible for what ahppened to me.
I know they did the best that 2 wounded adult children could do. But I'm also aware that I was deeply wounded spiritually and that it has had life-long damaging consequences for me. Personally, I hold us all accountable. What that means is that I hold us all responsible to stop what we're doing to ourselves and to others. I will not tolerate the outright dysfunction and abuse that dominated my family system.
Hurt and Sadness.
After anger comes hurt and sadness. If we were victimized, we must grieve that betrayal. We must also grieve what might have been - our dreams our aspirations. We must grieve our unfulfilled developmental needs.
Remorse
Hurt and sabnes are often followed by remorse. We say "If only things had been different, maybe I could have done something diferent. "Maybe if I had loved my dad more and told him how I needed him, he would not have left me".
When I counseled incest and physical-abuse victims, I could hardly believe that they felt guilt and remorse about their violation, as if they were in some way responsible for it.
When we grieve for someone who has died, remorse is sometimes more relevant; for instance, perhaps we wish we had spent more time with the deceased person. But in grieving childhood abandonment you must help you wounded inner child see that there was snothing he could have done differently. His/Her pain is about what happened to him/her it is not about him/her.
The end of for the moment D.
With anger, we aren't meant to stay there, but we are meant to pass through it, have to to heal. And we're not meant to withdraw into denial and shame for feeling it. Sometimes our anger can frighten us. I know mine can. :shock: It can be so intense an scarey. That is a very good measure/indicator to use actually. :D
We can use it to assess the level of inner pain we are really in as a result of the spirtual wounding we suffered in our childhood. And therein lies the challenge. Hahahaha. Got to use therein already. Oh, and so sooon too! :D
Nope, it was stolen while I was euphoric on the swing. Think there is a hidden msg in that incident. I ended up buying a new one. Then, I lost the keys for a few days (yes, both key still on the same ring) but found them yesterday so could go unlock the new one. :oops: :roll:
[/quote] Yeah, I read recently a recommendation not to jog or walk or cycle with a walkman on. Seems the baddies target people who can't hear them coming. Sad. :( Just best to have lot's of people around and swing in a busy place if you wanna swing and listen to your favourite music. :D And yeah, rememeber, always chain your bike up D. :D Or it could get quite expensive replacing them all the time. hahahahahaha Yep, spare key on the same ring. hahahahahahahahaahhahaah. :D
((((((D))))))))
CG
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D, there's link I'm trying to find for you where you can get more of the original extract for free. But I'm having trouble finding it :? . I think I need to do a computer course :oops: .
CG
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Hi everyone.
CG and Phoenix,
Thank you for your recent posts. There is alot of information in there to process. Still processing. :) Still reading it.
I mentioned at the beginning of this thread about a new therapist I am seeing bi-weekly. I've only had one session so far. Well, tonight, I went out with a friend and asked her how her hike went last week. I was supposed to go but stayed home to work. She mentioned some of the others that went and one of them was "a psychiatrist named ****" who "seemed a little creepy." Yup, that's the same therapist I have scheduled myself to see next week. :roll: He has been supportive and sent emails inquiring into my situation; that was more than the other ever did. But I would have been surprised to see him on the hike if I had gone. Should I mention the very real possibility of us meeting at different group activities here when I see him next? I didn't tell the friend that I had seen him and that he was the one who suggested I take the meds. Any comments welcome. Anyone ever run into their therapist in a social situation?
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Dawning,
This is what I'd do: I would tell the therapist that my friend saw him on a hike that I almost went to, and that she thought he was creepy. I would say that I would be really upset to go on a hike and see him there. And I would wonder aloud how we would deal with the two problems: one, boundary issues; and two, creepiness.
I would also ask myself if *I* thought he was kind of creepy and whether his emails were in any way unprofessional. (The answer to these questions might be no.)
I believe in telling my therapist my worst, most negative feelings about him. If he can't take it, then he isn't the right therapist for me.
Yes, I've seen a therapist in public places and I didn't even care. But I hike is different because you're isolated in a small group. Totally inappropriate for a therapist and client to be together in that setting.
bunny
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Addendum! :oops:
I can see how it's dicey to say my friend thought he was creepy because he may then guess the ID of your friend. So maybe you don't want to do that. But I would ask myself whether I thought he was creepy. He might not be. My H thinks my therapist is a wierdo by the sound of phone messages he left. I don't think he's a wierdo.
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
Thanks for the guidance. No, I don't want to unintentionally ID my friend.
The best thing for me is to go into the sessions with clear goals of what I want to bring up and see how we go from there. *However,* I have trust issues - maneageable ones but they are there nonetheless. Especially, after the last wet-blanket therapist....who I really did want to trust and I *believed* so strongly that she cared. But she didn't. So family-iar.
My dilemma now is in figuring out how to not let my friend's opinion of the man she hiked with cloud my own personal judgement of him as a therapist. Already, I notice my eyebrows raising when his image comes to mind.
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The best thing for me is to go into the sessions with clear goals of what I want to bring up and see how we go from there. *However,* I have trust issues - maneageable ones but they are there nonetheless.
Can you bring up trust issues to him, and the fear that you'll see him in public and how would he handle it? He does have to earn your trust after all.
My dilemma now is in figuring out how to not let my friend's opinion of the man she hiked with cloud my own personal judgement of him as a therapist. Already, I notice my eyebrows raising when his image comes to mind.
It's okay if your friend's judgment clouds your own opinion. You can tell him that you've started doubting him as a therapist. This is all grist for the mill. And it may turn out that he sucks as a therapist - better to find out now than later. I've had serious doubts about my therapist and almost left him a few times. Then he redeemed himself. I decided it was a negative transference and not him. But I had to consider whether it was really transference, and be honest with myself about it.
good luck,
bunny
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Hiya Dawning. :D Just popping to talk to you briefly. While I’m here can I say Hi to CG and everyone else? I’ll hope that’s a yes! Thank you in advance? Hi. I think D you may have the book that CG has wonderfully typed excerpts out of (way to go CG, can you type properly? I just use four fingers!). CG I love that section. But how I keep spiralling back and forth between the stages, each getting a little less intense with each revisit. Anyhows, I mean to spend a lot time thinking and reading the board and not posting too much. I hope.
But before I do, can I ask D, about the emails? I’m interested in protocol and what happens. He’s sent you supporting emails, asking about you. Is this usual? Did he say he would do this and did you say that was okay with you? And a really down-to-earth question, (this is really intrusive! :oops: ) how does he account for any email type support in terms of payment? I guess he might bill you for time spent writing, reading and replying? I’m just wondering, well, okay, a bit fascinated too! I’m always interested in what people do with their therapists, how it works. I mean, would you ever tell a therapist your name on this board and have them read sections? It seems natural that with a good therapist, one would. Or am I being too optimistic about the relationship? :? Hmm. I’d like to think it was possible.
Anyway Dawning, I was reading recently how deciding on a therapist is one of the most important decisions in life, when you consider the potential benefits. A decision not to be taken at all lightly and one to base on intuition as well as qualifications etc. Your money, time and energy are serious things to commit. It’s okay to question and be very choosy, it’s so important to feel a rapport of some sorts. And for both you and therapist to be rigorously honest! Listen to me, :roll: I’ve never done it. I’ve just read about it! :D Love, P
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I'm not Dawning but I'm going to respond with my experience.
No therapist I've ever seen has emailed me or allowed me to email them. However there are therapists who do email; if it's a psychiatrist, it may be mostly about the medications (guessing). Email is risky for a therapist so most of them won't do it. For one thing, confidentiality is a problem with email. For another, many things can be misinterpreted over email.
I have had phone calls with therapists between sessions and was never charged. I don't think any therapist charges for communication outside the room. It's considered part of the service. I think they would have to warn a client in advance if they charged for phone calls or email!
Finally, I would never tell my therapist my handle and ask him to read my postings here. Never. Reason one is that I don't want him on this group; reason two is that he probably wouldn't read the group (for confidentiality reasons) and then I'd be hurt! Reason three, I want some places that are free of therapists. I suppose a person could print out their own posts and bring them to the therapist.
bunny
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I don't intend on EVER, EVER telling my therapist my handle here or anything about this board. This is a place where I work things out in a group setting albeit online and the privacy and sacredness of this group is important to me and to others too, I imagine. It never even crossed my mind that I would bring him here.
I might bring up things that come to light for me as a result of being here.
Something else: I got an email from another person I know today telling me about this therpist, ****** ,that she's been seeing who is full of insights but doesn't have a very good couch-side manner. Guess who that therapist is. :roll:
He did have me sign a disclaimer at the beginning. Something about him not being held responsible for my behaviour or something. Has anyone else had to sign a disclaimer? He gave it to me right at the beginning before he asked me any questions. I understand his motives....doesn't want to get sued if I go postal. Heh. But the other one didn't do that. She also didn't make make herself available on the phone (only for rescheduling) and never did emails.
I'm also careful about the content of my emails to him. Of course, he has to earn my trust.
Apparently, there are alot of therapists out there with all kinds of different approaches.
p.s. In addition, current fellow gave out lots of info/worksheeets/paperwork at the first session. He also wrote that email/phone support is part of the counselling fee and would not be charged extra.
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I had my third meeting with new psychotherapist last night. He asked me which of three routes I wanted to go but I didn't feel like he could accept my answers or questions. We spent the entire session talking about the merits of prozac. First, he was running late and I had to wait in the hallway outside his building. That annoyed me since he exclaimed to me over the phone before we met that I absolutely *must* be on time and make the meetings at the exact minute of the agreed-upon appt. So, why doesn't he hold himself to this exactness, I wondered.
If he wanted to push prozac on me, I would have appreciated knowing his true intentions. Why ask me a question about which therapeutic route I wanted to take if he was not going to accept my answer?
As I said, this is only the third meeting. As bunny said, he does have to earn my trust. Basically, I feel that he has taken my openness about my history to make come premature conclusions without mention of alternative therapies.
When I asked if he would still see me as a client if I decided not to take the drugs, he didn't answer clearly and I asked the question twice.
I told him I felt it would be important to get a second opinion and he gave me the names of other physicians that I could get a second opinion from. Is that normal? I thought when someone gets a 2nd opinion they get it from the *outside.*
What seemed odd to me is the feeling I had of his diagnosis that I needed anti-deps without an explanation that satisfied me. My intuition is the biggest asset I have and talking with him was liking talking to my mother -that feeling of *my way or the highway.* He seemed overly-persuasive (ie, using my honest appraisal of myself as a way to push these drugs...I mean, are they really that great?) Maybe he gets a kick-back from someone? He certainly was pushy.
I'll be open to taking drugs but I need to know that my concerns are listened to and heard. I feel like he has made a diagnosis of me (depression) too soon.
I'd like to hear from others about this (yet, again.) I would not be adverse to taking prozac but I don't want to take it forever and he seems to think that they are necessary forever (he used the analogy of a diabetic needing insulin.) He also mentioned some possible side-effects: that I might become paranoid or more depressed at the beginning. Well, I live alone and the last thing I want is to *freak out* on my own with no support around me. I told him that I didn't want to take them for a long time...just to help me make some major life decision and get me thinking more clearly about what I have to do to make them. It sounded as if he wanted me on that sofa, in his office and on those drugs for the duration of my life and I definitely do NOT want that.
Any comments would be most welcome. Thanks.
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Hi Dawning,
My intuition is the biggest asset I have and talking with him was liking talking to my mother -that feeling of *my way or the highway.* He seemed overly-persuasive (ie, using my honest appraisal of myself as a way to push these drugs...I mean, are they really that great?) Maybe he gets a kick-back from someone? He certainly was pushy.
For my 2 cents I'd like to say that you should trust your intuition. There are plenty of therapists out there.
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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
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IMO you need respect at this point. I'm not saying this is always the case, but a woman doc might be more sensitive and understanding. You are the consumer; the doctor is on trial. This is your life.
flower, saying that you deserve the best, Dawning!
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I had my third meeting with new psychotherapist last night. He asked me which of three routes I wanted to go but I didn't feel like he could accept my answers or questions. We spent the entire session talking about the merits of prozac. First, he was running late and I had to wait in the hallway outside his building. That annoyed me since he exclaimed to me over the phone before we met that I absolutely *must* be on time and make the meetings at the exact minute of the agreed-upon appt. So, why doesn't he hold himself to this exactness, I wondered.
He sounds like an idiot.
I told him I felt it would be important to get a second opinion and he gave me the names of other physicians that I could get a second opinion from. Is that normal? I thought when someone gets a 2nd opinion they get it from the *outside.*
It's okay for him to give you names. You don't have to see any of these people, though.
Bottom line: HE SUCKS. Dump him and get someone else. I hope you have other options besides this loser. Don't see him again. No more appointments. He isn't right for you (or, I suspect, for anyone!).
bunny
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Thanks flower. I appreciate your sharing and thank you for your kind words and your opinions.
Thanks bunny. I am going to look into other options at this point.
I really, really appreciate the feedback.
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Hiya Dawning :D
he exclaimed to me over the phone before we met that I absolutely *must* be on time and make the meetings at the exact minute of the agreed-upon appt. So, why doesn't he hold himself to this exactness, I wondered.
Whoah! Control freak who expects others to keep to his rules but he’s allowed to do what he likes? I’m running! :arrow:
Go girl, you deserve much much much much better! Like someone who can at least behave like a human being and who knows how to relate to another one. Hugs D, P
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Hi P. :) Thanks for your voice too.
Blech. This therapist has been calling my landline and mobile and emailing. He did so last Sunday at 11am!!! On a Sunday. :?: Is that normal? I didn't pick up or respond. Last night...a Friday evening around 11pm, he called my landline. I don't have caller ID so I picked up. I heard his voice on the other end...sounding suave and patronizing. Just who does he think he is anyway? Or am I just non-trusting?
I am not ready to do what he says right now and I will contact him in the future when and if that is the course I feel comfortable with. But he scares me. Its like he won't accept my answer(s.) And this reminds me SO much of my mother. I don't think he is good for me because I feel he is getting me to self-doubt myself way too early in the client/therapist relationship. When I told him that he has to earn my trust he went into a speech that most people who come to see him jump at the chance to take anti-deps because they know they want to get better and so he questions my resistance and thinks that I don't want to get better because I won't dutifully follow his prescriptions. I don't think it is fair or compassionate of him to say that. I wish he would give me a little space...or is he calling me out of legitimate concern? Its hard to tell.
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Hi Dawning,
You have suffered too many losses in too short of time. First, your family, and now your friend. You are grieving and need time to work through your issues. It doesn't sound to me like you really want to go on Prozac. I've never been on meds, so I really can't help with your decision.
Did you ever see the movie What about Bob? I love the philosophy of baby steps. Just one little step at a time. With each little success, you become a little more confident. You build on that. I really don't think there is a pill that will give you that. Plus, you'd miss out on the joy of knowing that your progress was real. That it was you, not the meds. Only YOU can give you what you need. Pray and always listen to that voice inside. It will guide you. I'll be praying for you. Dinny
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This therapist has been calling my landline and mobile and emailing. He did so last Sunday at 11am!!! On a Sunday. :?: Is that normal? I didn't pick up or respond. Last night...a Friday evening around 11pm, he called my landline. I don't have caller ID so I picked up. I heard his voice on the other end...sounding suave and patronizing. Just who does he think he is anyway? Or am I just non-trusting?
Dawning: HE SHOULD NOT BE CALLING YOU. This is harassment!!!! Does he work independently or at a clinic? If he's at a clinic, complain about him! There is something deeply wrong with this guy. Therapists do not call clients unless it's a return phone call or if the person seems suicidal. What he is doing is way out of line. What I would do is leave a message on his voice mail telling him that you do NOT want to receive any phone calls from him and if he continues calling you will consider it harassment. And do consider it that, and take steps as if anyone were harassing you. (I think it will stop immediately, though.) He doesn't get special privileges because he has "M.D." after his name. What a wierdo!
bunny
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Hi Dawning,
Ooogah, ooogah! :!: :!: :!:
This guy sounds like a perp not a therapist. Egads! Run Run Run!
There are wolves among us in trusted positions like doctor, priest, teacher. He is one of them. There is nothing wrong with your intuition and everything right with Bunny's advice. What he is doing is totally absurd and harmful. Thank God you have enough strength to resist this incredible loser. Protect yourself.
Hope you are OK and can put an effective end to this terrible treatment. Hugs, Seeker
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Dawning,
I agree with others in the thread. I think you are so wise to back off now, and consider never returning. If you are (very rightly in my opinion) that uncomfortable with him, it just doesn’t seem like a fit. When I read your experiences with him and your intuitions about them, my own intuition just naturally fell in line with yours.
Apart from all of the unanimous feelings at the board here, remember that you also have your friend’s (who actually met him) intuition of his creepiness, without her having any bias at all, as she didn’t know this was who you’d be seeing.
Intuition aside, practically, it looks just as bad. I can’t speak in absolute terms to all of the modalities of therapy out there that might get utilized, strange as they may be, but I do know that calling at home is normally reserved for very extreme, emotionally unstable clients. Even at that, it is usually the client that is given the therapist’s number if they should feel they are in crises. There is just something not right about him calling you as he is. Though a bit bizarre, if it somehow were really part of the way a clinic does things, then in my mind, the proper thing to do would have been to have you both suggest times where you would talk, just like appointment times at the office, and not just call out of the blue whenever he fancies. It just doesn't add up. Beyond creepy, he seems like an unwell person. I agree with bunny that he is actually enaging in harrassing behavior.
That he should never push meds on you is a given, and truly, his suggesting that you don’t wish to get better because you are simply questioning the route of taking a medication first off, is just plain irresponsible, unethical, and potentially harmful behavior as a therapist- period. It is a blatant abuse of his "power", or position, and in my mind, he shouldn't be seeing people.
There are great therapists who literally help save people’s lives, but sadly, there are also too many that should not be in the profession. It is so sad and tragic because the bad ones are dealing with people who have had so much hardship in their lives already. They bring them down deeper into an abyss of inner turmoil.
You deserve nothing less than someone you feel comfortable and safe with, and importantly, someone you trust enough to feel you can make significant progress in their counsel. This guy sounds very far from that.
I'm really sorry you had to experience that weirdness. One good thing is that you now know some signs, and that you will be able to trust your own feelings when something doesn't feel right, and be able pick someone that does feel right.
I hope you are okay as well (such an experience can have an emotional impact), and I hope so much for you, that the next therapist that you try will be one of the gems.
Take good care...
BT
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Dawning,
I just want to add my voice to the others who expressed so well their alarm at that therapist. He sounds chillingly creepy to me too.
((((Dawning))))
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Thanks to all of you who replied with your support. You really helped to validate my thoughts about what seemed to me to be strange behaviour on his part. He called again on Saturday but I did not respond.
Does he work independently or at a clinic?
Bunny, he works independently out of what appears to be his home/office. He has a colleague as well who I have never met.
There is just something not right about him calling you as he is.
BT, I couldn't agree more. Especially, the fact that he was calling me on Sunday mornings and late on Friday nights. That seemed pretty creepy.
and also, you wrote:
That he should never push meds on you is a given, and truly, his suggesting that you don’t wish to get better because you are simply questioning the route of taking a medication first off, is just plain irresponsible, unethical, and potentially harmful behavior as a therapist- period. It is a blatant abuse of his "power", or position, and in my mind, he shouldn't be seeing people.
Thank you so much for this. Because, you know, a person who has confidence issues like I do....hearing something like that from him triggered all my fears that I am messed up more than anyone else and if I don't do it his way, I will get even sicker. This is SO much like my parent's programming of me when I was little. However, I also *felt* as an intuition that his approach was disrespectful. So maybe I am getting somewhere positive and this strange series of communications was a stepping stone. It was so wonderful to read your thoughts that put into words so well what I was feeling about his approach.
There is nothing wrong with your intuition and everything right with Bunny's advice. What he is doing is totally absurd and harmful. Thank God you have enough strength to resist this incredible loser. Protect yourself.
Thanks, Seeker. Another friend of mine is going to him as well and taking prozac. She likes the effects of the meds and said that once you get the prescription from him, you don't really need to see him anymore. However, I would not like to take these meds especially if I started having weird side effects. Who would I turn to for immediate support? Him? I don't think so. Now that I don't trust him or his responses to me (after repeated attempts to explain my fears to him) there is really no way that I can have anything to do with this guy. I'm seeking another way. I'm trusting myself on this. What a shame...that there are losers like this out there in this kind of profession. Scary stuff.
Thanks again, Flower for adding your voice to the chorus.
Thanks, Dinny, for the caring reminder about taking baby steps and for your prayers.
(((A Big Hug))) to you all!
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Hiya Dawning
(after repeated attempts to explain my fears to him)
Does therapy - choosing the T - have to be such a hard slog? If I did it, I'd want to have a mutual 'click' with the T in order to trust them. I wouldn't want to have to explain or justify my feelings about anything to do with my relationship with them. If we didn't 'click', I don't think I'd bother. I've nothing to prove to a T. They would have more to prove to me - like qualifications, experience etc etc.
there is really no way that I can have anything to do with this guy.
:D :D :D I'm happy for you D! love, P
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Another friend of mine is going to him as well and taking prozac. She likes the effects of the meds and said that once you get the prescription from him, you don't really need to see him anymore.
What is this - Prozac blackmail? Take the prozac and he will leave you alone? BTW I don't think he would leave you alone. He may have a crush on you, which is totally creepy. I would complain about him to his licensing board.
bunny
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Hi Dawning...
Yeeeesh.... He's calling you late at night on a Friday, from his home...
Now, thinking of him working out of a home office, and doing those behaviors.... It's even worse... :shock:
Because, you know, a person who has confidence issues like I do....hearing something like that from him triggered all my fears that I am messed up more than anyone else and if I don't do it his way, I will get even sicker. This is SO much like my parent's programming of me when I was little. However, I also *felt* as an intuition that his approach was disrespectful. So maybe I am getting somewhere positive
Yes, I understand so well. I still might question myself at first, just like you, because my own inner scripts might begin playing. They are so powerful. The bad apples in this profession know that they are dealing with emotionally vulnerable people, and seek to use this to their advantage. :(
I think you definitely are getting somewhere positive. Even if you were feeling the effects of your long held fears, you were still wise enough to question, and pay attention to your intuition. And it is so great that you brought the whole thing up to the group here, for perspective, too…
It is sooooooooo not you whatsoever, here. I am just like you in the medication sense. I had a very bad anx. disorder at one time, and still struggle with some things, but I haven’t taken meds. Nothing at all wrong with taking them when needed of course, it just has been a very personal choice up to this point. If in your situation I would have questioned, just like you did, and would have walked if I were pressured in that way. It has nothing to do with wanting to get better or not, and this was a terrible, and false thing to say. A verycoercive thing. :evil:
If you could see a pyschologist, you might have better results regarding trying other therapies, and not meds. Pyschologists don't prescribe meds.(only pyschiatrists do) so their first line treatment modalities are other by nature of their profession.
Only thing is that pyschologist visits are often not covered by medical plans, and pyschiatrists are, so sometimes it is not an individual choice. But I don't know if it is so in your neck of the woods. It is where I live
Best Dawning….
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Hi there,
I wanted to chime in and agree with the general tone of everyone's responses. I would also like to share my med experience, which I hope will be somewhat helpful.
I'll try to turn a lifetime struggle somehow into a short story. About 4 years ago I was having difficulty dealing with life in general. I started to notice that my familiarity with depression was taking on new symptoms. I constantly felt overwhelmed with every day things. I was constantly concerned with what others thought of me. From total strangers to close friends, I was always paranoid. I started to notice I was turning into a recluse. I basically just felt engulfed in my current situation and couldn't seem to talk myself down. (I had always been able to in the past). I also noticed a bit of OCD was developing which started to worry me enough, that the therapist was called ASAP!
My depression was trigged then, as it has been today by my Psycho N mother. I knew proir to stepping in the T's office, that I needed a bit of help (pill) to take the edge off. She suggested Prozac. I was on it for a handful of months and noticed right aware that I went from totally uptight to a "mush ball". I became lazy and nothing seemed to bother me one way or the orther. Keep in mind I was on the lowest dose made. So..I requested to get off of it, and was switched to Zoloft. I stayed with it for over a year, and felt great. It just took to intensity level down a notch. My fuse grew a bit, I guess. I didn't get "twisted" as easily, and still felt totally in control of myself. I took a long break, but presently back on it. I feel like it lifts the "fog" and helps me think and see things with better judgement and clarity. Medication is something I had and still am not a "promoter" of. However, when things got completely out of control, it certainly helped a great deal to get through those times.
I hope this was somewhat helpful. If you would like any other info on my experience with meds, I'd be glad to share. Be well.
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"I took a long break, but am presently back on it. I feel like it lifts the "fog" and helps me think and see things with better judgement and clarity. Medication is something I had and still am not a "promoter" of. However, when things got completely out of control, it certainly helped a great deal to get through those times. "
Stamac--
So many times I hear from people who have been on meds that have helped them, say that they wouldn't recommend or "promote" them for others.
You've said the same. Why is that?
I'd love to have something to just take things down a notch- to take the edge off as you say. Even just a small difference in my emotions and feelings would make a huge difference in the quality of my life.
Like you said for you--I'm also noticing changes for the worse right now, in what my usual way of depression was.
You wouldn't think it was a good idea to try zoloft or something else? If not--why not?
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I think the reason behind my "pro med" or I should say.."not" pro meds, is my own person feeling of knowing that whatever I was going through...I let it get the best of me. Hense, the last resort...meds. Yes, they defintely helped, and there's a chance I may have to accept that I may need to permenantely be on a low dose of something. I guess I feel weak. I put guilt on myself that I wasn't strong enough to deal with whatever med-free. It's my own guilt I chose to take on. That's why I originally took a break. I was determined to pay attention and note the differences between being on and off meds. I set a goal to try to achieve the same results without it. But, I felt I needed some help again. I'm glad I went back on. I feel good again. Who knows...I'm not so uptight about it lately. If this is what I need to feel happiness after all the crap that I/ everyone else in this forum has been through...then the decision was a no brainer. Take care.
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Thanks for answering.
I know what you mean.I feel that too and probably lots of people do regarding the meds.
Just try to think of the stats and how many people out there are privately taking some kind of medication for psychological help as well. Co-workers, employer, friends, the sales clerk at your favorite store, the mail person--- people in all occupations and walks of life.
Sometimes we just can't do it on our own because of physical chemical imbalances and it is kind of like having a broken leg at the physical level but deciding up there in our minds that we are going to go dancing. We could try all we wanted on willpower alone but because of the physcial reality we'd fumble, be in pain, and make things worse in the end.
In the case of depression the physical reality is the chemical imbalance.
I'm glad you feel good again.You played out both sides and it seems you are doing the right and best thing for yourself. Take care.