Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: pandora on August 02, 2004, 02:24:38 PM
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Hello,
I wanted to get some input on something that happened to me recently.
I saw my STBXH this weekend at a public event. He was hovering a bit and making me uncomfortable, so I finally told him (quite forcefully, I must admit) to leave me alone. I did not insult him or use rude language, I just said "Leave me alone" with some force, and walked away from him.
His response was to later track me down and unleash a very upsetting barrage of verbal harrassment - forcing me to state my reasons for divorcing him (which I did state quite clearly - infidelity and dishonesty) followed by a list of ways I had failed him as a wife - selfish, nonsupportive, bad communicator, etc. (One would wonder why he wants anything to do with me at all if I am such a disappontment!)
I got upset and told him to leave me alone and to get away from me several times. He responded by yelling "f*** you", etc. and then storming off. He later tried to approach me to apologize for cussing and to express his frustration that we could not be "friends". I told him that I could not talk to him and to leave me alone, and then walked away. This happened in front of at least fifty people.
He did send me a message attempting to apologize - but of course it is my fault for provoking him.
One of the things that came out in his tirade was that he knows where I live. He had to find it out eventually, but the way he said it made me nervous. He seemed angry that I had not shared this info with him freely, and implied that I should be grateful that he hasn't disturbed me at home or at work, which to me sounds like a veiled threat - he is letting me know he could harrass me if he wanted to. Am I mistaken to interpret it that way?
I am also concerned because this is the first time since I left him that he has been nasty to my face. Previously he has been reasonably polite in person, and limited his tirades to email or the telephone. He has sent me many letters intended to convince me that he has changed and that I am making a mistake by divorcing him and has tried to convince me to meet with him alone several times - I don't respond to these anymore and will not meet with him. I try to keep our contact limited to practical matters.
I believe these tactics are probably just another way for him to try and jerk me around. I don't want to be overly paranoid, but I am a little concerned for my safety. He seems unstable and unpredictable. But he has not been physically violent or threatened me in that way.
I have told a few friends about this incident, just as a sort of precaution.
Is it likely that he becomes more angry and acting out in this way as it becomes clearer to him that I have no interest in reconciling or allowing him to have any further influence over my life?
Thanks for your opinions and input. I am actually doing much better and feeling quite optimistic about my future. This continued crap is upsetting, but it no longer rules my life.
Pandora
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A book that I have found helpful is The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.
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I would take his behavior very seriously. The fact that you didn't want him to know your address speaks for itself. Please go to www.bpdresources.com where they have stalking links. Tell ALL your friends to be wary of him. A stalker will get information from your friends, who don't know he's stalking you! It may also be time for a restraining order.
bunny
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Your rightful request to him in public to leave you alone probably embarassed the hell out of him so he had to retaliate. Nevertheless, I would be concerned and it is obvious he has the potential to become quite a nuisance of a stalker. If you haven't already, please check out www.stalkingvictims.com. Their message board is especally good, I read it daily as it has to do with the behavior of N's and P's (and I was stalked in the past by a boyfriend and my second ex-husband).
You should document everything, tell everyone you know what is happening, and take precautions like they list on the Stalking Victims list. Perhaps post there and get their advice on how to proceed.
Hope this helps.
Lizbeth
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In case you haven't done so already, you should be keeping a diary of all your encounters with him and copies of every single communication, in case you have to get an order of protection. You can cut communcation down or completely out between the two of you having him contact your lawyer only for details. I would even go so far as to talk to the police and tell them about the veiled threats, show them anything threatening he has sent you as well. At least you can get it on record that way. Be warned, even non-violent men can turn violent when they realize that they have, finally, lost control over their "object" or "property" or "supply" (you). Once he realizes there is no hope at all for reconciliation, he may try to do something.
Please do check out stalking resources for your best information, each case is different, each N or P is different.
Good luck
Lizbeth
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Anger is never a pretty thing to see, let alone be on the receiving end of. The old saying about never knowing who you really lived with until it was all over springs to mind. He's frustrated and it's getting the better of him. It must be like having an argument with himself 24/7. Sometimes we men can try to rationalise and logic out things that just can't be.
Your marriaged ended and that's that! He'll accept it sooner or later as time goes by. The trick for you is to I think have no contact with him at all! The more you try to reason, the more he'll just blow up in your face. If he hasn't been violent to you in your marriage, then having no contact with him is unlikely to generate it. Be on you guard yes, but we all say things in the heat of the moment that we later regret!
Time and distance may mean that you at least can talk civil in the future, but it doesn't appear so now. Breaking off contact will I think, give you both the space to heal your wounds.
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Sorry, Onyx, but I respectfully disagree. When you are dealing with a N, all bets at expecting rational and respectful behavior are off. You are not dealing with a normal man here. You can have no contact (which is what you have to do with an N) and still end up with violence, because that is they way they react sometimes when they realize they have lost all control over you. Sometimes no matter what you do, unless you totally disappear, you will provoke violence in them, even if they have never touched you before. The most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves her spouse, or after the divorce has been finalized and they finally "get the picture." Pandora is right to be worried. This may blow over, but with his veiled threats and his behavior, I wouldn't bet on it.
Lizbeth
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Sorry, that was me, Lizbeth. I logged in but it didn't take.
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I do realize that my STBXH is dealing with his own feelings about our divorce, and I don't expect him not to be angry or act out at all. I just don't think that I should be the target. I have certainly vented about him in negative ways, but I would not call him up or approach him in public and subject him to that. That does not help me or help him.
I am trying to avoid all but the most necessary contact with him, but some is still needed since our divorce is not final. He has sent me unwanted letters which I have ignored as much as possible. Some of his more angry emails I have forwarded to my lawyer. And I did tell her about this incident, although it really does not affect the divorce.
And at this event, I did not approach him. He approached me without my encouragement and tried to initiate conversation. I offered minimal responses to his questions and hoped he would back off. Maybe it was not very polite to tell him to leave me alone, and I am sure that my frustration was obvious, but I did not scream and curse at him, or call him names, or say mean things. I just said "leave me alone".
And I figured he would find out my address eventually, but to inform me that he knows it in the midst of a verbal attack seems odd. I still can't believe that he acted like that in public. Anyone could have been watching.
PAndora
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Pandora,
Your H won't act reasonably as you would. He's a different type of person. I believe he wanted to confront you in public to intimidate and embarrass you. And he lacks impulse control. The fact that you did not want him to know where you live speaks volumes. I would take his behavior very seriously and protect myself.
bunny
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His response was to later track me down and unleash a very upsetting barrage of verbal harrassment - forcing me to state my reasons for divorcing him (which I did state quite clearly - infidelity and dishonesty) followed by a list of ways I had failed him as a wife - selfish, nonsupportive, bad communicator, etc. (One would wonder why he wants anything to do with me at all if I am such a disappontment!)
Pandora, my stbxh does the exact same thing almost everytime I talk to him... a barrage of verbal harrassment. Fortunately for me, most of these verbal attacks are on the telephone. Like you, I am amazed that he can carry on with insult after insult and then conclude that we should still be married. Even now, when I understand much more about N behavior, I am still very hurt by the tirades. And occassionally, he still frightens me with his intensity. When he focuses his anger on me.
At the same time, it reinforces my decision.
My reason for posting today? To tell you that I understand. To share with others the pattern these N's seem to take.
I would be careful. It seems that these Ns can create any kind of logic to justify their behavior. I agree with those who say it is advisable to limit or avoid contact with him altogether. If possible, try to avoid even the smallest of conversations when you see him in public. No matter what you say, he will turn it around and upside down and throw it right back at you.
From what you say, I'd guess that it is unlikely that he will do something violent. I would try not to have fear dominate my life. On the other hand, it makes sense to use your intuitive wisdom. If the situation seem like a threat it probably is. In your marriage you honed your skills of identifying you NH's moods. Trust you wisdom.
If you feel threatened, don't try to placate. don't try to reason. don't try to let him down easy. Listen to your own inner voice and get away. You won't win any prizes for being nice. And no matter how nice you are in reality, he will see it in his own "special" and twisted way.
Sorry to ramble. Good luck. Hopefully it will all fizzle out soon. That's what I hope for.
lynn
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Hi Pandora and all
I've found this site useful and have taken some good advice from people such as Bunny and co. I do however have to ask myself some questions to which I'm unsure what the answers really are. I'm find myself perturbed; somewhat confused as to the labelling of people as Narcissists...etc
On reading your post, I tried to get a feel for the level of intimidation you're receiving from this guy. I tried to read between the lines and disseminate his anger and your fear. I generally got the impression, and I'm probably well wrong here, that he's behaving like a child who's had his favourite toy taken away from him! Obviously there is undoubtedly a lot more you could say. But I certainly didn't get the impression that he would move to harm you.
I still feel that you should cut off all direct communication with him, if you're certain that the relationship is at an end. I would also only offer that any communication should be via your solicitors (lawyers) and that any more verbal or implied threats should be dealt with legally and forcefully.
I do have difficulty with people labelling all divorce arguments as NPD. I can't think of many couples I've known who divorced as being happy. I can remember plenty who swore blind and cursed their other half in rage at times! But this didn't mean anything other than they were angry. As humans, we are all mostly tested to our limits at least once in our lives. This guy has cocked up and is paying the price for it. His ego is damaged...and not before time from the sound of it! So he's a prat..., but maybe one day when the pain of it all has subsided for you both, you can at least talk together again in happier times.
Onyx
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thanks for all the replies and advice.
I am going to keep an eye out, and try to avoid unnecessary contact with him and hope that will prevent any more incidents like this.
I do understand that he is unhappy and frustrated with the situation. But so am I, and I am not cornering him and yelling and cursing at him. And I do agree that he was probably reacting defensively to my request for him to leave me alone, by responding with an attack of sorts. I can understand his feeling rejected, but to respond like that still seems over the top.
I am not really afraid, just feeling wary. He has never been overtly physically violent that I know of. But if anything else like this happens I probably will take legal action. I think it is reasonable to be somewhat fearful when someone that is a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier is behaving in such an intimidating way.
Lynn, it was interesting to hear that your H behaves similarly - angry that the relationship is over, yet saying such negative things that one would think that he would be happy to be out of it. I actually thought it was possible that my H might be relieved that I was leaving him. After all, he had so many complaints about me, and he was clearly interested in other women! In many ways I feel that he forced me to make this decision, by behaving in more and more extreme ways. So I thought that perhaps it was because he wanted out but that he wanted me to do the dirty work so that he did not have to take responsibility. Well, who really knows?
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I actually thought it was possible that my H might be relieved that I was leaving him. After all, he had so many complaints about me, and he was clearly interested in other women!
You may be forgetting the male ego.
bunny
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What makes you think anyone here is labeling all "divorce arguements as NPD" (not really sure what that means, actually. ) Sure, many normal people go wacky during a divorce, but that is not why people are here, because normal people they are divorcing for whatever reason have gone understandably a little wacky during a divorce procedure. They are here because they have been dealing with abusive, abnormal, and quite possibly dangerous people that they are now trying to extricate themselves from. The divorce process only makes what they have been going through worse, and a previously non-dangerous person can turn dangerous when faced with loss of control or of their "supply."
When a person who has behaved as pandora's has in the past starts making veiled threats, it would be smart for her to take them seriously. You are doing her a disservice to suggest otherwise. I know you don't mean to take it lightly, but that is what seems to be happening.
Lizbeth (who forgot to log on, sorry)
Hi Pandora and all
I've found this site useful and have taken some good advice from people such as Bunny and co. I do however have to ask myself some questions to which I'm unsure what the answers really are. I'm find myself perturbed; somewhat confused as to the labelling of people as Narcissists...etc
On reading your post, I tried to get a feel for the level of intimidation you're receiving from this guy. I tried to read between the lines and disseminate his anger and your fear. I generally got the impression, and I'm probably well wrong here, that he's behaving like a child who's had his favourite toy taken away from him! Obviously there is undoubtedly a lot more you could say. But I certainly didn't get the impression that he would move to harm you.
I still feel that you should cut off all direct communication with him, if you're certain that the relationship is at an end. I would also only offer that any communication should be via your solicitors (lawyers) and that any more verbal or implied threats should be dealt with legally and forcefully.
I do have difficulty with people labelling all divorce arguments as NPD. I can't think of many couples I've known who divorced as being happy. I can remember plenty who swore blind and cursed their other half in rage at times! But this didn't mean anything other than they were angry. As humans, we are all mostly tested to our limits at least once in our lives. This guy has cocked up and is paying the price for it. His ego is damaged...and not before time from the sound of it! So he's a prat..., but maybe one day when the pain of it all has subsided for you both, you can at least talk together again in happier times.
Onyx
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Hi Pandora,
All along your stbxh's behavior has seemed really creepy to me. I have been concerned for you. I think you are right to be concerned.
One book I read said that women are the best predictors of whether or not the abusive man will become physically violent. That was Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?:Inside the Minds of Angry and Controling Men. I think that book would recommend a restraining order. That was a great book. Simple to read, and it answers all kinds of questions I had.
It's understandable to not want to have to go that far. I think you are absolutely right on in telling friends, and not having any unnecessary contact with him. You are very self assured and that is good to see. I think you did the right thing in the situation you described. You were forceful in setting boundaries, and you excercised control. You handled it perfectly.
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bye
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OK
Are all men Narcissist?
Are all women bunny boilers?
Does the sun come up in the West and go down in the East?
If a man smiles at a women, is he a rapist?
When divorcing, is it normal for the people involved to be upset...are emotions going to run high?
Joking aside, I feel that it is easy to tar way too many people with the same brush strokes. I had a relationship with a girl who it has been suggested suffered with BPD. The shear anger and hatred that spilled forth from her mouth at times would scare most people. It wasn't pleasant and it was frequent. I was stretching my ability to cope to the limit. But she had good reason to be as she is. I'm going to standby her as she receives treatment....from a distance! She isn't a bad person.....just a girl who's in trouble right now! Believe it or not, she is a friend of mine and aren't we supposed to support our friends.......
Now I could transfer my anger and feelings over what I've experienced from this girl to other women. I could say that all women are nasty and bad. I could tell all my friends to avoid women like the plague. I could......burst a blood vessel when someone dissagreed with the above. Or then again I could treat it as an isolated experience and learn from it. Isn't that what life's all about.....learning?
I compared this thread to my situation and found her experience unpleasant, but not dangerous. I've also just read her update concerning the fact that he's never been violent toward her. Therefore what I wrote, is with some degree of balance. Balance is hard to achieve when some are soooo shut off to others views. Sometimes we feel that only our view counts when we feel so strongly about issues.
I'd agree that most men are penis driven and are idiots for being so (I'm one of them)! But that doesn't make me a rapist and violent wife beating sadistic bully. One sizes does not fit all (shoes) and I don't subscribe to the 'Hang em High' brigade in all circumstances. Balance is just that...!
Chill out Liz, not all men are total a..holes :-)
Onyx
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bye
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Can't agree with you more Phoenix :D As I've written, I think Pandora should have no direct contact with this chump and only do so via her lawyer. The marriage is over, bar the tidying up. His problems are no longer hers.......of which I'm certain she's very happy about!
I do feel for Pandora and all women in her situation. In fact I feel for anyone, man or woman, who suffers from such emotional abuse. We live at a time when marriages between men and women have never been so fragile.
I have three teenage daughters. I don't for one moment believe that I'll be 'walking down the isle' just once with each one! It just doesn't work that way anymore! And dealing with ex hubbies/boyfriends is going to become an issue that I hope the girls drag me into. I would never allow anyone to hurt my girls!!!
I know that this site is for people who've experienced abnormal stuff, that's why I came here in the first place. Unfortunately there are differing levels of abnormality in marriage breakdowns. My ex wife and I argued prior to our divorce. Yes there were tears and yes, one or two things were said that shouldn't have been. She would phone me during the night for a conversation that would inevitably turn into an arguement. She didn't want to divorce. Nasty things would be said. It was a time of tension and emotional turmoil....most divorces produce just that. It was a very saddening experience....it was painfull.
I remember especially her hurt at the thought of me sleeping with another woman. That really ticked her off and she would really 'kick off' at the thought of it! I'd listen over the phone as she'd slowly wind herself up until she was emotionally kicking the hell out of herself. I'd just say nothing and waiting until she'd calmed down from her short term roller coaster ride.
Anyway, I'm fully supportive of anyone who's in emotional distress of what ever kind! I'm Irish by birth and my 'mammy' always wanted me to become the 'priest' of the family. Every Irish mother wanted at least one in the family in those days! Not so sure now with all the bad press and things these days:) ! I thank god I was saved from becoming one as I found the joys of women in my youth 8) , although then agian, maybe I'm changing my mind again on that one :lol:
Pandora is scared. She asked for opinions...and I gave her one. That's all it is, just a guys opinion....sorry if it upsets people.
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Hi Pandora, how ya' doin'? :D Long long time, so speak. But :D (Big Hug).
I've got a completely off the wall question for you. :D Have you seen 'Zen Boy's post/thread way way back on page 5? I dunno why, but I thought at the time (when we were all kicking his butt) that it may have been your H. :D I was worried about you even more after that. As I'm sure were other posters here.
Anyway, if it was the/your'H', I'm even gladder you're doing 'your' thing. And yes, I'd be very careful with this one. Take as many precautions as you can think of. And go to those web-sites the girls posted and learn a few more safety meaures. Take care Pandora.
CG
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Onyx, no where in anything I said to you did I say that all men are narcissists or a%%holes, or women are bunny boilers, I'm married to a very nice man myself. However, domestic violence is not a funny subject, especially for the victims.
What I said was you are making light of a situation that is happening for Pandora of which you seem to lack background information. Maybe I hurt your feelings by disagreeing with you but I did it politely. You were pointed in the direction of reading about her past situation with her husband by another poster, and I thank them for that.
Non-empthatic narcissistic men can turn violent on a woman when they realize they are finally going to loose control and their supply, and Pandora's therapist told her that her husband was probably a Narcissist. He has made veiled threats, a smart person would be aware that he can act on them, it is in the nature of a narcissist to do so, regardless of how he behaved in the past. It would be far wiser for her to take precautions and come out alive than make the mistake so many women have in the past of thinking "oh, he'd never hurt me" and end up hurt or worse. There is hidden rage in every Narcissist that can come out when they realize "this is it."
Lizbeth
OK
Are all men Narcissist?
Are all women bunny boilers?
Does the sun come up in the West and go down in the East?
If a man smiles at a women, is he a rapist?
When divorcing, is it normal for the people involved to be upset...are emotions going to run high?
Joking aside, I feel that it is easy to tar way too many people with the same brush strokes. I had a relationship with a girl who it has been suggested suffered with BPD. The shear anger and hatred that spilled forth from her mouth at times would scare most people. It wasn't pleasant and it was frequent. I was stretching my ability to cope to the limit. But she had good reason to be as she is. I'm going to standby her as she receives treatment....from a distance! She isn't a bad person.....just a girl who's in trouble right now! Believe it or not, she is a friend of mine and aren't we supposed to support our friends.......
Now I could transfer my anger and feelings over what I've experienced from this girl to other women. I could say that all women are nasty and bad. I could tell all my friends to avoid women like the plague. I could......burst a blood vessel when someone dissagreed with the above. Or then again I could treat it as an isolated experience and learn from it. Isn't that what life's all about.....learning?
I compared this thread to my situation and found her experience unpleasant, but not dangerous. I've also just read her update concerning the fact that he's never been violent toward her. Therefore what I wrote, is with some degree of balance. Balance is hard to achieve when some are soooo shut off to others views. Sometimes we feel that only our view counts when we feel so strongly about issues.
I'd agree that most men are penis driven and are idiots for being so (I'm one of them)! But that doesn't make me a rapist and violent wife beating sadistic bully. One sizes does not fit all (shoes) and I don't subscribe to the 'Hang em High' brigade in all circumstances. Balance is just that...!
Chill out Liz, not all men are total a..holes :-)
Onyx
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Good morning!
I appreciate you speaking in my defense, Lisbeth.
Onyx, I also appreciate your input, and the caution against automatically labeling people as "N" or otherwise just because there is some conflict. We all behave badly and selfishly sometimes. And I certainly don't believe that all men are jerks! My X's actions only speak for him, not for all men.
And the truth is, I did not leave him because of some label, it was because I could not tolerate his actions and deceit. Does his behavior result from some personality disorder? - maybe and maybe not. It doesn't really matter. It is destructive to me and I needed to get away.
CG, your instincts are correct - the Zenboy poster was my STBXH. That was why I backed off posting for a while. Just did not seem safe. I suppose he could still be reading, but somehow the thought does not bother me as much now.
Have a great day everyone.
pandora
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Thanks, Pandora, for saying that, I'm really not trying to step on anyones toes, your safety has been my only motivation for posting the way I did.
Lizbeth
Good morning!
I appreciate you speaking in my defense, Lisbeth.
Onyx, I also appreciate your input, and the caution against automatically labeling people as "N" or otherwise just because there is some conflict. We all behave badly and selfishly sometimes. And I certainly don't believe that all men are jerks! My X's actions only speak for him, not for all men.
And the truth is, I did not leave him because of some label, it was because I could not tolerate his actions and deceit. Does his behavior result from some personality disorder? - maybe and maybe not. It doesn't really matter. It is destructive to me and I needed to get away.
CG, your instincts are correct - the Zenboy poster was my STBXH. That was why I backed off posting for a while. Just did not seem safe. I suppose he could still be reading, but somehow the thought does not bother me as much now.
Have a great day everyone.
pandora
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White flag, I surrender :roll:
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Pandora,
I have to agree Onyx, people in general do not behave well while in the midst of a divorce. You are in a different space than your STBX and that's why you can not see things in the same light. Men are taught to be agressors and women are taught to be nice and submissive, is it any wonder we don't always see eye to eye? :?: I believe that I read most of your posts and I feel your pain. Being lied to by one's spouse is devastating but I believe most people rush into divorce while their emotions are still on a rollercoaster.
Betrayal of any kind takes a while to get over, believe I know. When I found out about the OW, I rushed out and got a divorce. Now 2 years later, I regret my actions and I do not want you to end up like me. Everyone can change if given a chance. No one is perfect. As Dr. Phil says you are ready for a divorce until you are at peace. If you feel anger, hatred, frustration or any negative feelings towards your STBX then maybe you should take a step back. Nothing in life is ever final.
My advice to everyone is to take your time and pray on any major decisions you have to make concerning marriage. Marriage is a covenant.
Good luck.
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Hi Pandora,
I have just finished reading about your situation and I want to say that I am sorry that you are going through this. Please stay strong and take care of yourself.
Guest5-
Yes, you are absolutely right, marriage is a covenant (n. a formal agreement, a contract) and Pandora's husband broke that agreement. His choice.
Learning