Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: dandylife on March 20, 2008, 03:20:31 PM
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"People who trust in themselves and in their own merits are, as it were, blinded by their own 'I', and their hearts harden in sin."
Pope Benedict XVI
Do you agree?
Comments?
I would have to say I've been getting ever more sinful, then....(!)
There is an interesting (long) article in the Life section of the USA today on sin. Included is an interesting poll showing what Americans deem as "sinful".
Dandylife
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Agreed.
A few moments ago, before I read your post dandylife, I was reading St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, here is what I read:
1. BEFORE going farther, I wish you to consider the state to which mortal sin brings this magnificent and beautiful castle, this pearl of the East, this tree of life, planted beside the living waters of life ‘Et erit tamquam lignum quod plantatum eat secus decursus aquarum.’ which symbolize God Himself. No night can be so dark, no gloom nor blackness can compare to its obscurity. Suffice it to say that the sun in the centre of the soul, which gave it such splendour and beauty, is totally eclipsed, though the spirit is as fitted to enjoy God’s presence as is the crystal to reflect the sun.
2. While the soul is in mortal sin nothing can profit it; none of its good works merit an eternal reward, since they do not proceed from God as their first principle, and by Him alone is our virtue real virtue. The soul separated from Him is no longer pleasing in His eyes, because by committing a mortal sin, instead of seeking to please God, it prefers to gratify the devil, the prince of darkness, and so comes to share his blackness. I knew a person to whom our Lord revealed the result of a mortal sin In this as in most other cases(when the Saint speaks of ‘a person she knows,’ she means herself) and who said she thought no one who realized its effects could ever commit it, but would suffer unimaginable torments to avoid it. This vision made her very desirous for all to grasp this truth, therefore I beg you, my daughters, to pray fervently to God for sinners, who live in blindness and do deeds of darkness.
3. In a state of grace the soul is like a well of limpid water, from which flow only streams of clearest crystal. Its works are pleasing both to God and man, rising from the River of Life, beside which it is rooted like a tree. Otherwise it would produce neither leaves nor fruit, for the waters of grace nourish it, keep it from withering from drought, and cause it to bring forth good fruit. But the soul by sinning withdraws from this stream of life, and growing beside a black and fetid pool, can produce nothing but disgusting and unwholesome fruit.
Notice that it is not the fountain and the brilliant sun which lose their splendour and beauty, for they are placed in the very centre of the soul and cannot be deprived of their lustre. The soul is like a crystal in the sunshine over which a thick black cloth has been thrown, so that however brightly the sun may shine the crystal can never reflect it.
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Dear Dandy,
I am not Catholic,but a believer in the Bible. I would interpret the Pope's quote as saying that Man needs a Higher Authority than himself, to establish guidelines for living. Left to his own devices,man "screws' up things(IMO)
He is not saying not to use one's intuition or conscience,but to look to God to set the standards for human beings(sheep, as the Bible refers to us) to follow.That is how I see it, anyway. Ami
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Although I'm not Roman Catholic, I do understand what the Pope is saying here... and I agree with his interpretation of Scriptural truth, as I understand it.
And it's not only about sin vs. righteousness, but even where it's a matter of choosing between various options which all appear to be good. On each occasion when I've leaned on my own understanding instead of walking in faith and relying on the Holy Spirit, I've chosen something less than God's best for me.
I believe that God doesn't stop loving me when I sin, but that my acts of missing the mark, especially when I make those acts a repetitive practice, do harden my heart and put up a wall between myself and Him.
Interesting thread, Dandylife... thanks.
Carolyn
P.S. Lise, that was a lovely selection, really... thank you for sharing it!!
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I like this:
I believe that God doesn't stop loving me when I sin, but that my acts of missing the mark, especially when I make those acts a repetitive practice, do harden my heart and put up a wall between myself and Him.
Carolyn,
It is like being a friend to God (we were created in Gods image); when we sin it hurts God because it causes pain to others and to hurt others is to hurt God.
It makes me think about n saint, she put up walls to me, shut me out, which cut her off from my good graces and my love. I'm a warm and wonderful person, her shunning me was her loss.
So when I am in sin, I am shunning God's good graces. The problem is that when we shun someone, we rarely know what we are missing. People who chose sin, myself included, are choosing to live out of friendship with God, therefore, my resources and choices are going to be limited, I have no idea what I am missing until I start to root out sin and experience the sunlight of God's grace shining through me.
One thing I know is that anger shuts us off from God's grace; working on rooting out anger has been the big one for me. The more I work through my old anger and old pains, reaching for forgiveness, the more I feel God's presence growing in my life.
Peace to you on Maundy Thursday.
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Dear Lise,
Exactly... it is just that - friends of God, in Christ.
I cannot sin without harming others and hurting my own self, as well.
This outlook makes it all so much more personal. So... I don't commit adultery, for instance -- not simply because the code of law says it's wrong... but because I recognize the lasting hurt that such adulterous acts will bring upon the individual human beings involved. I may be able to rationalize all sorts of reasons why it'd be okay in this case, or try to convince myself that I deserve this (because, after all, God wants me to be "happy")... but now I see that this would be only another case of me leaning on my own understanding instead of accepting God's perfect ways.
Because I don't believe that others' battles with us is about flesh and blood, I think that Nsaint was actually fortifying her walls against God, and not you, personally. That was my experience with npd-ex. He never despised me more than when I was at my very best, both emotionally and spiritually... and such is the no-win situation when dealing with a servant of lies. The lie must be preserved, at any cost.
What you've said about shunning God's good grace is so true, Lise. And I've learned in my own life that His grace is more than simply His unmerited favor... it is also His power, freely given, to bring me through any situation I face. So when I choose to live in sin (including unbelief), it's just like pulling the plug or shutting down the "main"... and then, let the wallowing begin :?
Anger is a biggie for me, too... and resentment... and a critical spirit. Saw on a church sign the other day -
"Criticism is nothing but a twisted form of pride"... and that's the truth.
Peace to you, too, dear Lise, on this Holy Thursday.
Love,
Carolyn
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(because, after all, God wants me to be "happy")... but now I see that this would be only another case of me leaning on my own understanding instead of accepting God's perfect ways.
Just like a parent and a child relationship, doesn't the parent just want the child to be happy and healthy? Won't the parent have to discipline the child at times?
For instance does a child lean on their parent's understanding that too much sugar and sweets are not good for you? NO. When a child wants candy, when they are being told NO, they will use every trick in the book to get what they want despite what mom and dad desire.
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Yes, just like a loving parent to a child... and imagine that! If only our earthly parents had set such an example of loving concern.
The main requirement of the only parenting/authority I'd ever known was a demand for perfection... and that, simply for the sake of perfection, or so it seemed... without any communication or building of relationship.
So for me, there was a seemingly inborn admiration for rules and regs... at least, I thought it was admiration. Mostly, it was a need based on fear, because without all that, felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me.
Now I can see that the "rules" don't give life... only relationship does. And on the flip side, the rules are not there for the sake of keeping me down, but for my own good - so that I can do more than survive, now... I can thrive. Working on thriving now :D
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Now I can see that the "rules" don't give life... only relationship does. And on the flip side, the rules are not there for the sake of keeping me down, but for my own good - so that I can do more than survive, now... I can thrive. Working on thriving now :D
Hear! Hear!
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Interesting comments, everyone!
"He is not saying not to use one's intuition or conscience,but to look to God to set the standards for human beings(sheep, as the Bible refers to us) to follow.That is how I see it, anyway. Ami"
"set the standards". I can see that. 10 Commandments, et.al.
It's just interesting because as a survivor of childhood (and later) abuse, where I was always forced to comply/bend down to someone else's will, it's disheartening that the lovely kingdom of heaven is only for those who do the same. know what I mean? I know there is a difference between a loving God and a bullying N. Obviously. But doesn't the lesson of being taken for this ride once make us wary of ANYONE else's "commandments"?
If God exists, he can look into our hearts and know our intentions. That is a lovely consolation.
I don't know why I'm so interested in this poll about sin, but I did find it fascinating:
What Americans call sin:
Adultery 81%
Racism 74%
Using hard drugs 65%
Not saying anything if a cashier gives wrong change 63%
Having an abortion 56%
Homosexual activity or sex 52%
Not reporting income on tax return 52%
Reading or watching porn 50%
Gossip 47%
Swearing 46%
Sex before marriage 45%
Homosexual thoughts 44%
Sexual thoughts about someone you're not married to 43%
Doing things as a consumer that's harmful to the environment 41%
Smoking marijuana 41%
Getting drunk 41%
Gambling 30%
Not attending church regularly 18%
Drinking any alcohol 14%
Dandylife
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besee,
That's all that was on the list.
I know - I thought - what about murder? I would guess that 100% of people would think that's a sin ? (99.9 anyway)
I agree with you.
There was another interesting quote in the article: "We find a comfort zone of morality, a kind of middle-class middle level where we think we are doing well. We cut the grass. We don't double-park. But we ignore the larger issues of sin." The Rev. Albert Mohler
Dandylife
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But doesn't the lesson of being taken for this ride once make us wary of ANYONE else's "commandments"?
Yes. It surely has made me wary... as did being saturated with religious notions from birth, along with dire warnings about other Christian groups which allegedly didn't have it all right-enough to qualify as legitimate. Very wary, indeed.
If God exists, he can look into our hearts and know our intentions. That is a lovely consolation.
Dandylife
Yes... it is a lovely consolation to me, knowing that people look on the surface, the outward appearance and exterior manifestations (including shows of religiousity), but God alone sees the heart.
Dandy, the most freeing bit of information I ever received was that "it's not about making good - it's about being made new" - -
with reference to the new birth in Christ, which is the source of all lasting change.
The thing is, as I see it, it's not just the bad stuff which gets credited as sin (imo) - - it's any stuff I might try to do of my own strength, apart from God's will and grace. I mean, I could give kazillions, if I had it, to the poor... but if I hate the guy who lives next store because I chose to pick up an offense from him, then my heart is not right, and that is the issue at hand. Bottom line is - I cannot make myself right enough. It's impossible.
So it gives me comfort to stop leaning on my own ability to rack up points... because I know that there's no great scorecard in the sky and I'm not in a race to try to hit the jackpot with my "good works" or my avoidance of someone else's list of sins. It's all and only by God's grace.
Thanks again for the topic.
Carolyn
P.S. Besee... I love your signature line :D
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There was another interesting quote in the article: "We find a comfort zone of morality, a kind of middle-class middle level where we think we are doing well. We cut the grass. We don't double-park. But we ignore the larger issues of sin." The Rev. Albert Mohler
Dandylife
Yes! I agree.
Wasn't sure who Rev. Mohler is, so I looked him up - pres. of the So. Baptist Convention.
Don't know anything about his ministry, but I do think he makes a very good and true point in this quote!
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
you wrote, "Bottom line is - I cannot make myself right enough. It's impossible."
How true. When even the "thought of sin" is a sin! I don't like the notion that we start out being sinners. And just continue on from there.
I guess I find the notion of being "imperfect" much more palatable. Sin has such an intention attached to it. Being imperfect is more - oops - I did it again type thing.
There was also, in this article, a reference to "allowing injustice to flourish" as being considered a sin. I had never thought of it that way before, and I'm very glad to have seen this.
Dandylife
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Dandy,
When even the "thought of sin" is a sin!
That is not necessarily so. The bible teaches that our desires or thoughts lead us to sin, not that the thought or desire in and of itself is sinful.
Even Jesus took pains to point out that it requires one to lust after another's spouse 'in your heart' to be sinful.
Every stray thought that is less than righteous is not necessarily sin. Only those we dwell on and allow to grow and mature.
mud
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Hi, Dandy,
I get what you're saying.
My revulsion for religion is based on similar grounds.
My understanding of the teachings of the Bible is that every human being is born with a proclivity to have imperfect thoughts and to do imperfect actions. That is, I believe, what's referred to as the sin nature (aka "original sin"). It's innate and I cannot overcome it by trying to be good. Some of the idiotic stuff I've done in my own life, along with thought patterns which led to those poor choices, is all I need to convince me that this is true for me.
But- the religion in which I was raised, and with which I was pummeled/indoctrinated throughout 12 years of parochial school, did nothing to address that innate problem. What it did for me was create a whole web of neuroses which worked together to sabotage my life. It's like considering the Sermon on the Mount - - no way can I do all that saintly stuff... and, you know, I think that's the whole point of Jesus' message there. Finally I heard Him telling me, "You can't do this, but - in Me, and with Me in you- you can BE this." And there you have it - - the difference between doing and being... because the doing comes out of the being, not the other way 'round.
Hope that makes some sense. I really appreciate the opportunity to reply on your thread here, because this is an area which has deeply impacted my own life in more ways than I could express.
Oh, about "allowing injustice to flourish" - - I remember the phrases "sins of omission", along with "sins of commission"...
and also the differences between sin, transgression, and iniquity. Seems that these theological terms address the various aspects which comprise the full scope of imperfection in the human heart.... including the not doing of things which I should do.
A bit more about that here: (by Watchman Nee)
http://books.google.com/books?id=itj_Eo0m3j0C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=difference+transgression+and+iniquity&source=web&ots=XHLRUK6-UF&sig=qhrOe8Q1vgB2YHhrgbnSYdK26Gw&hl=en (http://books.google.com/books?id=itj_Eo0m3j0C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=difference+transgression+and+iniquity&source=web&ots=XHLRUK6-UF&sig=qhrOe8Q1vgB2YHhrgbnSYdK26Gw&hl=en)
Thanks again.
Carolyn
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war
indifference to genocide
polluting the earth
sigh,
Hops
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FYI: I probably won't be around for a week or two - due to a computer crash. But I'm here for this brief moment.
mudpuppy, thanks for the clarification, that did help.
Carolyn,
You sound so very angry - misled? I can't tell. I remember resenting the fact that I had to go to Religion Class every Wednesday - Catholic - as a child. Hated it - though I made good friends and still remember some good memories. I'd love to hear more about your positives and negatives from growing up as you did. Share more?
I will be around in about 2 weeks when my new computer gets here. I will likely stay away until then. See you later,
Dandylife
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Hi, Dandylife,
Sorry to hear about your computer troubles, but very glad you're able to replace it!
Thank you for the invitation to talk about my experience... I'll give it some good thought over the next week or so and see if I can't write about it in a concise and non-wandering style... (and that's a tall order, for me! lol)
For now, I'd just like to clarify that I'm not angry in a "grrr... I'd sure like to set those folks straight" kinda way. Not fuming or vengeful, no veins poppin out on my forehead or huffing and puffing.
This is more of a center-of-my-heart conviction and determination to never again get caught up in vain religion or any other system which shifts attention away from the Source of all goodness as I now know Him. Best way I know to put it is - I hate religion, but the hatred isn't consuming because its force drives me into Life and Light.
See you when you get back!
Carolyn