Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Kimberli63 on April 05, 2008, 02:56:36 AM
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(Victor Frankl, a psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor, wrote extensively about the "defiant power of the human spirit." He noted that there is a fundamental difference between pain and suffering in that "suffering" is how we choose to react to pain. "Conditions cannot completely condition us. Everything can be taken from us, but the last of human freedoms, to choose one's attitude, can never be taken away." Frankl called this the spiritual dimension).
I was thinking about this subject today. Over the last few days, I have felt extremely irritable. Two of my closest friends are preoccupied with other matters, and I am feeling neglected. It is totally ridiculous to feel that I am being ignored. I know exactly what they are doing but I have been missing being able to communicate with them, phone, email, messaging etc. Now, how selfish can you get? One is spending time with his dying sister and the other is working at investigating some horrendous crimes that have been committed in the last few days. He also has his son, who leaves for the Navy next week, staying with him. So why am I acting like a spoilt brat?
I think it has to do with my attitude. My attitude goes back to when I was small. I would want my mother’s attention and I would be given a piece of chocolate cake. I resented the fact that she found the time to make a cake and yet she couldn’t find time to listen to me. This is learned behaviour. I am just reacting to something I am saying to myself in my head. It has got nothing to do with my friends. It has to do with me choosing to feel neglected. As soon as I realised what my attitude was doing to my mood, I immediately felt more understanding about what my friends are going through, and less empty.
In some ways, I know I also refused to believe that a lot of my misery is caused because of how I choose to feel. I remember when I felt annoyed, or just down right angry, my psychologist husband, wouldn’t sympathise, he would say it is your own choice to feel like that. Boy, did that go down well! I would then become enraged, and yell and scream at him, telling him he was an insensitive, offensive moron, etc. Of course, that didn’t help but it did make me feel good at the time (to try and hurt him). I now know that the problem was he felt nothing emotionally. I would be all rung out and I would be peeved that I was so misunderstood. Whereas if he had given me a hug instead of what sounded like a spoken piece of chocolate cake, I wouldn’t have felt the need to try and get him to understand.
Now all I have got to do is remember, I can choose how I feel about things in my life.
Kim in Oz
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Dear Kim,
I don't agree that we can chose how we feel.I know this will sound "controversial. I think that when we are 'underwater"(emotionally ill), we can't 'chose". We are locked in to a 'position".
The only way to get out,permanently, IMO, is to keep facing the truth about ourselves until we do get out.
Then, WHEN we are in our "right" minds, things won't be so hard that we have to continually "chose" to "feel right"
Compost what does not fit. Love Ami
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Kim - I don't think your feeling of being ignored is selfish at all. That's a need speaking to you - you NEED some attention right now. It feels bad that your friends are tied up with other things, but that doe NOT mean you are bad in any way for needing their attention. I wouldn't blame it on attitude and I'm not fond of Frankl b/c I do not believe we can choose how to feel. I think we can choose what to do about our feelings, but not to have or not have them. Another noted author and therapist, Virginia Satir, always said, "Every feeling must have its day in court."
If you are in a weakened state, your resentment stemming from your mother's early treatment of you when you wanted attention will surely come back up. Little children want and need attention and being bought off with chocolate cake by a parent too lazy to attend to a child is NOT normal. Your needs were and are normal. If you do as Frankl suggests and intellectualize your needs, IMO they will always come back stronger b/c they have not been owned or acknowledged.
Respect your needs, respect your feelings. Feel sad that they can't always be met or resentful, but please don't bury them or cut them off. Hope I'm not being too harsh here. You can always tell me to bug off.
towrite
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I believe that we CAN have a ckoice but we have to be able to see that we do. That is not easy. It takes a profound ajustment of perspective to be able to see the choice.
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I believe attitude is a choice. I've heard you make a conscious choice when you first open your eyes , to make it a good day, and not let whatever happen through out the day make you completely loose focus on being positive. For the most part.
Nogadge
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This came to light before and I recall reading his book, saying that everything can be taken from your but your mind/thoughts and that is so true and made me think of this bit of wisdom again, too.
Be careful of your thoughts,
For thoughts become your words.
Be careful of your words,
For your words become your actions.
Be careful of your actions,
For your actions become your habits.
Be careful of your habits,
For your habits become your character.
Be careful of your character,
For your character becomes your destiny.
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Kim: I think your post is a strong one. We are given the gift of choice, in my opinion, and I like Viktor Frankl. I agree with much of his writing. It's not that others cannot hurt you--they can and do and will sometimes try, but as you say here, we can ultimately (if not in the heat of the moment, exactly) decide how to respond. Or not respond! It is possible to always give the appropriate response, even if that is no response at all. It's in our hands.
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My personal guide is very much:
Be careful of whom you mix with
as their attitude can influence your thinking
Basically, those of whom have a hidden agenda will suck you in, use you for their agenda, purpose,
and then dismiss you, as quite simply; you were merely an object whose usefulness has now expired.
Sad, but true.
Leah x
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Kim,
I think a lot of this is true, but you have to understand the complexities and subtleties.
I have always thought that happiness is a choice; that is, we can make the choice to be happy. Not in just plastering a fake smile on our faces and adopting a phoney personality, but in deciding to be happy and then finding out what makes us really happy -- meets our needs and gives us pleasure, in an appropriate way (that is, if being mean makes you happy, that's not a good thing) -- and pursuing it. I very much think that if happiness doesn't come naturally, it can come via a conscious choice.
Similarly, I think Frankl is right, in that we have a choice as to how we look at suffering. We can choose to be a victim. or we can choose to look at what we're going through and determine how we can grow from it. That is, instead of staying stuck in suffering feeling miserable (which you're going to do by the very definition of suffering, so go ahead and own the feelings), we can fully experience the feelings and then find out what they have to teach us.
The choice lies in whether we choose to stay stuck or to grow. It's not about the feelings.
But we never actually have a choice in our feelings; they just are what they are. Our choice lies in how we respond to them and what we decide to do with them. Feelings are never right or wrong; they're just a guide.
It seems very natural to me that you would feel angry about your mother not giving you attention -- that's a good reality test! I would expect you to feel angry or resentful. You were a child, and you wanted your mother's attention. You're generally supposed to get it. That's the way it's supposed to be, ideally. Giving you a piece of cake is a measure to shut you up and shut down your needs and tell you to go away. Of course this is going to happen from time to time -- mothering is hard -- but it must have been a pattern in your family or you wouldn't have such strong feelings about it.
And of course you feel lonely and neglected when your friends are unavailable, for whatever reason. That's reality -- you're alone when you would like to be with them. It doesn't mean that you make demands on their time at such critical times in their lives -- just acknowledge your feelings, see the need, and find another way to meet it. (Other friends? Join a new group? Something?) There's nothing wrong or bad in feeling lonely, we all do; what matters is what you do with it, especially in these cases when your friends are having their own rough time. Keep your friends for the future by respecting their time and place, and supporting them. You sound like someone who wants to do that.
And you're right, your current feelings are probably being supercharged by your mom's neglect. See it for what it is, own it, feel it -- and move on. I have this very same problem -- my mom neglected me all the time, so I tend to look for attention, etc. You can learn to deal with it in healthy ways.
Your husband amazes me. I don't know you -- so is he your ex-husband? I'll leave my comments until I know the answer!
Bottom line: let yourself have your feelngs. Don't judge yourself for them, just have them, act appropriately on them (that's where our choices come to bear, in our behavior), and learn from them.
Lots of good stuff from other people on here!! Don't be so hard on yourself!
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I relate, and I love Victor Frankl.
A saying I like:
Pain happens. Suffering is a choice.
Small example.
This weekend I felt very lonely on Saturday.
Had hoped for time with one of two men I like.
Neither panned out.
I sat with it. Suffered a little. Then reminded myself I was very tired.
Blurrily thought of pampering so I did a salt-scrub shower and painted my toenails azalea pink.
Then did the fingernails.
Spent 15 minutes on the floor telling my dog sweet nothings.
Brushed her.
Meandered around the house contemplating various messes I didn't feel like cleaning up.
Reminded myself that the upside of lonely is I could put that off another day if I chose.
Went to church Sunday and Man #2 came out with me for waffles afterward, with two of my dear friends, and he was funny and sweet and kissed me on the cheek after. (First time.) He's my gardening buddy.
He's 12 years younger so I feel...woo-woo!
Life is good. Spring is absolutely AMAZING.
love and thanks for the thread on attitude,
Hops
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Yes I say we have a choice.
My new therapist about my crooked ex-broken leg wants me to wear this blig black bloots all the time to prevent injury to my fee/toes
I have not worn such ugly things in all 39 years, after the injury, and I don't go around running into walls and breaking my toes. I broke my right big toe when I was running and hit a wall! 1966. Did my little daughter ever laugh! 2½
I have told the therapist I will wear my own shoes when I go out in public. No room for argument, and being that I really am never out long 1-2 hours maybe twice a week...well what can be her problem? She won't remark and I won't wear the blig black bloots unless at home as they are cozy slippers, but cost me $67.00
If anyone is not in control enough of one's mind, to CHOOSE, then there's a very big problem. We choose right from wrong, what is good for us or not. Those are the main things, then we make choices for our children until they are old enough, and educated enough to make their own choice. Make a wrong choice? Learn from it! Make a right choice? You deserve a little pat on the shoulder.
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Yes, I agree with this, we have a choice not in what happens to us--nobody chooses broken bones or physical therapists, as Izzy is facing here--but we can choose how we respond. "I'll wear my own shoes if I damn well feel like it" is life-affirming dialogue, and I say go for it.
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gjazz
I appreciate your agreeing with what I posted about the choice of footwear,
Now I can go back 39 years and tell myself that it was my choice to invite that *idiot* to take me to the dance for my godson. It was also my choice, being a 3rd date for us, that I would not go to his friend's apt, as he had the key. When I said 'No' he tramped on the gas, in anger, never said another word, and wrecked the car and me.
So choices!! Well my second choice was still to not let him bed me.
I wonder what would have happened had I turned off the ignition at 120 mph?? Noone ever told me!! So I froze in fear and now I'm here.
In court I was asked if I ever interfered with his driving. I was able to say 'No'. Does anyone know what a car, at 120 mph, would react to a sudden turn off of the ignition?????
................................but I swear I will not dwell on the facts that were my choices!
Otherwise I would drive myself nuts!
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Izzy: So you invited a guy to a dance and ended up with a broken leg? Ye gads. But very good you didn't go to bed with him, or--God help you--you might still be fending him off today. Think how much more might have been broken. And no, I do not believe it's a good idea to interfere with a driver in a car going 100+ miles per hour. I believe that's how people, um, die.
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Whew gjazz
39 years ago this happened and I ended up with a broken back and in a wheelchair. He is alive and well and likely a top guy in the Canadian Services!
Came home after a year of abandoning my 5 yr. old daughter. (I said you didn't know --but that is not a rub-in!)
She is now 44 with 3 children and I am still in a wheelchair. Some things never change.
The broken leg was Sept last yr, from weakened quads.....but had the same in 1984 from a twist in tranferring from the car, ankle and leg (right) then left ankle in 2003, lost balance in bathroom (but made myself presentable before I dialed 9-1-1.)
Stopped using crutches then--made quads go weak over 5 years. Now need exercise!
A number of broken toes (someone helping dropped the chair on my right toes--well I told her to drop it as she wanted to help and in the middle said she was just out of hospital from a heart attack.) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Life can really be funny. I do have to laugh!--being told by Sears to stop using the escalators as I was scaring the customers. :P :P :D
You ought to have seen me going through turnstiles and revolving doors...............or do you think I am kidding?????
You can't keep a old woman down--not with all I ignored and have now learned
Iz
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Hey Iz,
What ever happened to the guy driving the car? How did he respond to what he did to you? Just wondering you don't have to answer.
Love
Deb
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Izz, you did NOT:
Came home after a year of abandoning my 5 yr. old daughter
AND SHE KNOWS THAT NOW.
You were trapped for months in a Stryker frame and in lengthy rehab, and you were abandoned.
And you have finally cried.
You and your daughter are both whole human beings.
love
Hops
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Hello Hops
Thank you for posting the truth,
I posted what I did, for impact, as gjazz thinks I just had a broken leg. Not her fault; she and I have not really met....just beginning.
Some thoughts are there, then disappear? but linger in one's memory for a while.....that's me.
Appreciated as you know
Love Izzy
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Hey Iz,
What ever happened to the guy driving the car? How did he respond to what he did to you? Just wondering you don't have to answer.
Love
Deb
He was charged with Dangerous and Reckless driving and lost his license--- big deal, but I sued him and won!---this was 1969.
At the hospital that night he stepped into the ambulance that was taking me from one hospital (intial treatment and x-rays) to another with a neurosurgeon and orthopedic surgeon, and he said, "I am sorry, Izzy. I will telephone the sitter and let her know". That was 4:30 a.m. and after that he went out to hire a lawyer. What he said to me was 'admission of guilt'. His lawyer, according to mine would have told him to say nothing to me. Too late. I was conscious from beginning to that and knew everytrhing, then I was given a shot for the next ambulance trip.
I was so conscious of things that I told my father that the sitter had not been paid for that evening then staying all night. He went to her and she wouldn't take more than $2.00.
Then when a pastor sneaked in, I asked her if she would telephone my mother and have the newspaper stopped. That made her cry, because I had worse things to worry about than the newspaper. I have to laugh, sometimes, in retrospect at how practical I am/was
Then he was tranferred to Germany and had to make trips back for the provincial court charge, then the examinations for discovery re the civil suit. We would be in the same waiting room with me in a wheelchair, in a frilly blouse and a jumper, with the cather bag strapped to my thigh, and we said not one word to one another.
I could write a book, eh?
Love
Izzy
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Iz,
Yeah you could write a book and then a mini series. I really, am amazed at you. I don't think that you are a person that I will ever forget Iz. I have learned many things from you and I hope to keep them with me forever.
I loved that movie Fried Green Tomato's and when I think of you I think of the strong character (Twandaaaaaaaaaa) in the movie.
That's the type of person you remind me of. Lot of heart,deals with problems and strong, strong, strong and just does what has to be done, yet, a teacher and may not even know it.
When I feel scared and weak I will think (IZZZZZZZZYWANDAAAAAAAAAAA) and know I can do it cause you did.
Love
Deb
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Heh heh heh Deb,
You are so funny and sweet. I loved that movie too. It showed the dysfunction in another generation, but the BBQ was a little queasy making.
I had a book in mind, but when resentment and anger left, the book began to fade away.
I expect I might have been thinking, a book, with no happy ending would bring forth answers, but I was given my answers first.
I don't see myself as anyone special, but as someone who just kept on trekking to find an 'end' of the road!
Love
Izzy