Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on April 05, 2008, 09:58:15 AM
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My M made sure that I stuffed and felt guilty about my anger. Now, I think I could tear my H apart with my bare hands.
He takes no responsibility for Scott's death. That is not my problem.
My problem is MY anger. I feel guilty for it.
I feel like *I* should be"loving" and "good" and have NO anger. I don't deserve it. That is what is 'screwing"me, believing that I don't DESERVE it. "Who do I think *I* am?".When I wanted to feel anything, I remembered,'Who do you think YOU are?"
Then, I feel depression, which is familiar and nonthreatening
I HAVE anger. I do. I guess I have to see it and accept it.
That is just it.
If anyone can relate, I would love to hear your experience. Thanks, Ami
PS I think that giving up your "anger" is what lays the groundwork for being abused ,in the first place----bleh.
I need my anger to survive in the world. I can't keep pushing it down and be healthy.
Jesus had anger, so it can not be "bad".
It has to be part of the human arsenal of emotions that we need to function in life.
I need to get it back.
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While I am at "it", I need to own my own shame ,too. I can't keep putting it 'out there" for other people to manage, sanitize it and then give it back to me,"all pretty". It is mine to manage, just as my anger is mine to own , use or not use, as the situation demands.
I am tired of living like this.
It simply does not work to have a peaceful and fufilling life.
I am seeing what I want from life now.
I want to love myself, so I can put myself away and 'live", function, and relate.
I have to love myself, so I am not asking for love from others in order to be OK.
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I think all the emotions have their place and serve an important purpose. The help inform us, notify us, and help guide us through life. Sometimes though, especially when the ones I'm experience seem to be all bad, I wonder what purpose they have at all. I don't think anger is always a bad thing, as we often have a right to angry and something we should be angry about. I've noticed time in my life when getting angry meant I was starting to stand up for myself, or developing some esteem and starting to care about how I'm treated.
In the past though, I went through a phase where my anger just absolutely consumed me and it started interfering with my life. I had to get through that in order to live a less stress filled life. I suppose though, maybe it might not have been the anger that was the problem but the person causing it. I guess there healthy ways and unhealthy ways of expressing all the emotions. I do anger wrong most of the time, but there are times I did it that protected me from abuse and made me feel better about myself. I notice that a lot of people deal with other who are highly narcissitic, and I think I might be a polar opposite where I don't have enough narcissism. Everybody should have a healthy level of that.
{{{hugs}}}
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Dear Darren,
You made a very, very good point. We,LV's(little voices) do not have enough Narcissism. I think I am afraid of healthy narcissism,b/c I am just so afraid of anything that has 'N" attached to it.
I am afraid of all the healthy types of 'N" you need, anger ,selfishness, self promotion etc. Therfore, I have a LV. I am TIRED of the LV---bleh!!!!!!
Thanks for answering, Darren. You have so much to offer.Darren. The more you write, the clearer you sound. Get out those gigabytes(lol) Love Ami
(((((Darren)))))))
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Ami - I can sure relate. I learned in therapy that if I did not acknowledge my anger, then I was cutting off a big part of myself, like trying to live with one leg. I had so much anger that it comprised a big part of ME that I was denying. I could never have a fulfilling life with only part of me available. Once I did acknowledge my anger, I admit it came out constantly at other people, at situations where I felt helpless. I had thrown off my submissive mantle and felt more like an avenging angel - avenging myself. All that has calmed down now, but it took time.
I hear you, Ami. I really do.
towrite
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Another thing, Ami - maybe this won't happen to you - but when I began acknowledging my anger, I got constant comments about how angry I was, I was "just an angry person", and some friends went away. But I know that people get angry when you change the rules, so when I wasn't submissive anymore, they didn't want to hang around or wanted me to go back to being submissive. Like my friend's husband who started having affairs and left her when she refused to smoke pot any more.
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Thank you, Kate. That post really, really helped. Love Ami
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I just have to "claim" myself ,now. It doesn't matter what Person "A" or Person "B" has, I have to claim "me."
I have to make myself functional and going forward with my purposes for living. Ami
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I SEE how my F, M ,and H could not "help" how they acted and ''were', BUT I am still angry. Does that make sense? it seems that if you "understand", you should NOT be angry, but I am. Ami
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I feel like a huge "joke" has been "played 'on me. My M got ME to think *I* was abnormal and crazy when it was SHE who was crazy.
I thought my anger was bad, so I let everyone walk on me.
No one told me that *I* had to stand up for myself. *I* thought I was "bad" to be "selfish" and "angry" so I let everyone do whatever they wanted to me.
I could cry and destroy s/one at the same time.
Today, my H did a "little " thing,but it was "big".
He let the dog out and she ran in the neighborhood and could get hit by a car. My H got mad at ME b/c *I* was angry. If *I* am angry, HE can treat me badlly b/c *I* should NEVER get angry, I guess.
*I* don't have the right . No, when I get angry, my H takes HIS anger out to beat me back.
Well, no more on that one. All I want to do is face the truth. That is all---bleh. Ami
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Ami, I think I posted this before but I am posting it again because I think it is or could be helpful.
Ami, anger is a very important stage of growth. You seem to have unblocked the pipeline to your recovery through the loss of Scott, and I am sorry this loss had to be the catalyst.
I recently, went through, a period of great anger, absolute rage, actually. I, found out after trying to work out what was wrong with me all these years, that it wasn‘t me but my mother and my continued insistence on choosing narcs, of both sexes, to relate to because that is all I understood. When I was about 7 or 8, my mother took me to see a psychiatrist because there had to be something wrong with me. She found me impossible to deal with and I was fighting with my younger sister, who got all the attention.
I met someone on MySpace, and we started talking late last year. He had a NPD wife, and the more we talked, the more I realised that all the counselling I had done over decades, had brought me to a point in 1990, when I had explored all my options but I just didn’t have the final piece of the jigsaw. I suddenly realised, that I had wasted more than 50 years of my life feeling inadequate and, at times, I felt like I had two personalities and I did - hers and mine. I was outraged to realise that several people had lived, vicariously through me. I did all their feeling for them. I was the human face of so much destructive behaviour and I did not know what to do with myself.
Once I calmed down, which took several weeks and lots of deep thinking, I decided that now that I know what is going on, I am going to take charge of my life. I have lost 50 years of my life. I am, no longer, going to let them control me. It is my time to be myself. I shifted focus from them to me.
I stopped wasting time with or even thinking about people, who can’t or don’t want to understand. Ami, you need to stop wasting time with your husband (and anyone else, like him) trying to get him to understand or, at least understand your position. He will never understand so cut your losses in terms of effort. Limit your time with people, like him. Instead fill your life with people who energise you. Steer clear of anybody who exudes negative energy, whether it be at the shops, at the school, or anywhere at all. Start surrounding yourself with people, who love you or, at least give off positive vibes.
Kim in Oz
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Ami, this is something else I found. Unfortunately I can't say if it works because I steer clear of narcs but it might be a way to get back at your husband and get him to stop bullying you.
http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2007/11/when-narcs-attack.html
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Thursday, November 15, 2007
When Narcs Attack
Professionals often say that narcissists "overreact" to the merest unintended slights and that they fly into a rage for the slightest reason. But this view seems anthropomorphic to me. I suspect it comes from forgetting that the narcissist on your couch is a pathological liar.
The truth is that narcissists attack for no reason. In fact, they are prompted to attack by anti-reasons.
Of course the narc on your couch says he did it in self defense! He whines that the victim said or did something to slight him or anger his tender, tender feelings. Were you born yesterday? Narcissist = pathological liar. So, why do you expect him to confess to you that he is a predator = one who attacks any vulnerable target of opportunity?
I would hate to admit how long it took me to discover this, but in my experience, what triggers a Narcissist Attack is nothing but a vulnerable target of opportunity.
Test narcissists. Parade bait before them when the coast looks clear so that the narc thinks later it will just be his word against the victim's. Then watch what happens.
You can push his Attack button by having the victim be very vulnerable, like say by showing great affection for the narcissist and giving a heartfelt plea for some in return. (Rather like a man I knew who asked a narcissist to marry him and got eviscerated for it.)
How does the narcissist react to what should evoke his love and affection? With a savage attack, that's how. Rather like any wild predator when you ring the dinner bell for it by giving it a swipe at a defenseless creature's soft underbelly.
Except that natural predators must be hungry at the time.
On second thought, I guess narcissists have to be hungry, too. But they always are. For, they have the kind of hunger that increases the more you feed it.
So much for the theory that narcissists are just too touchy. They ain't touchy at all.
Test that too. Indeed, try to provoke a narcissist. You can't. Go ahead, try.
The only way to get yourself a raging narcissist is to tempt it with defenseless bait when it thinks no one is watching.
Now that you have your narcissist raging, do one more thing. Have the victim rise up rage right back it its face.
Guess what happens? Presto chango! Rage off!
Instead of a raging narcissist, you now have a poor little meek and gentle angel who wouldn't hurt a fly and is heartbroken at the victim being so nasty.
Welcome to The Twilight Zone. I call this miraculous phenomenon "The Transfiguration."
I am not exaggerating. You witness the instantaneous substitution of one persona for its very antithesis in the blink of an eye. You don't know whether to pinch yourself or start throwing holy water at it. Because an Academy Award winner couldn't do that that fast.
It stuns you and gives you the creeps. Indeed, one facial expression doesn't melt into the other: the whole mask changes at once.
I call a narcissist's faces "masks" because when you see this happen you know that's what they are. You know that what's on the face is a lie. It's the Big Chill.
A stunning revelation. The narcissist's very face is a lie about what is really going on in the darkness behind that mask.
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Kim in Oz
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Ami, Gabben posted this several times. I identify with it and you might like to read through it for another way of looking at the feelings you are experiencing. In fact, I seem to have fallen into this trap myself.
1. As a result of abuse, the child experiences painful fear and hatred of the abuser(s).
2. But because the child feels essentially powerless to stop the abuse or to convince anyone to help, the child begins to perceive the whole world as "unfair."
3. The child blames the world for being unfair, and, at the same time, begins to blame himself or herself for not being "good
enough" to put up a successful fight against the world.
4. The child learns that blaming the world does not provide any immediate gratification, and that punishing the world is not an
easy task, but that blaming the self-and punishing the self-can provide immediate and controlled satisfaction.
5, Because this self-destructive behavior is unconsciously directed against the world, however, and not against the self, the child
cannot realize, let alone accept consciously, that he or she is now causing most of his or her own pain.
6, Therefore, the child grows into an adult who harbors an aching bitterness against the world for its unpunished abuses, and,
at the same time, at every disappointment he or she will find some convenient, secret means of self-sabotage-and will then feel
justified in saying, "Look what they did to me! It's not fair!"
And what strange satisfaction maintains all this self-destruction? Well, it's the satisfaction of unconsciously hoping to show the world how wrong it is. Like Hamlet holding a mirror up to his mother, hoping that she will see in herself the responsibility he played in the death of the king, the person trapped in victim anger will hold up his own destruction as "evidence" that, he hopes, will condemn the world.
Thus you might hear someone saying, "So what if I get cancer from smoking? Maybe it will serve them right. Then they will see how much I had to suffer," And so this unfortunate life will end, just like Hamlet, cluttered with death and destruction.
I hope this doesn't offend.
Kim in Oz
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Ami - of course it makes sense that you are angry anyway, despite their just "being" what they were. Anger over not getting what we needs, esp. as young ones, is natural, normal, and expected. I never expected my NM to help me out in my crisis, but the hope she would never went away -- and it hurts that I have a mother like that. And makes me very angry.
kate
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Thank you Kim, Kate and Darren,
Kim--your posts were tremendous you really "get" the deeper roots of N and OUR part in it---bleh. You,also understand how the N "switches" to the "good one". who is "sicky sweet"
Kate--you seem to have lived through what I am going through. I appreciate all your help
Darren--you are confronting how anger has played a role in your life and facing what you can do about it.
Thank you again for your caring and helpful posts. Love Ami
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Ami:
My NF went to great lengths to try to make everyone around him crazy. Not just think they were crazy, ACTUALLY crazy. I think this might be fairly common with Ns. They manipulate and control, manipulate and control. And I did some things when I lived with him that were in fact quite insane. So when he told people I was the one who needed help (or my mom, usually a woman) people would agree. With my brother and sister-in-law he went so far as to infiltrate their therapist and pull strings there. And I think one of the only defense mechanisms available against this is rage. And maybe this sounds pollyanna-ish, but getting past the anger to a place of peace is going to feel so very good for having been where you are now.
Hang in there.
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This is the first day that I have heard about voicelessness. I am 51 years old and I think I know why I am chronicly depressed now, at least part of the reason. I identify strongly with your description of your Mother, Ami. I have tried to explain how I felt invisible many times to my therapist without feeling that she really understood how alone I felt growing up then and still. Every time I tried to express an opinion or an emotion to my Mom she would say something to the effect of "Don't be silly" or ignore me altogether. I felt like an outsider at school as well and would prefer to be alone, I could go on and on. Anyway, I know how difficult it is to tear away from family who have treated you badly all your life while at the same time believe that they truly love you and have done you no wrong, at least that is how they present themselves. I wish you strength and happiness.
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Thank you Seajoy and Gjazz,
I feel homicidal rage. I NEVER felt like this before. I see HOW people kill people. I bought all the lies of my M, for love. I wanted love so badly that I threw away my good sense and believed that SHE , an NPD, was "normal" and *I*, a non NPD, was abnormal.
I really, really could smash her. I could see how my brother wrote her a letter that he could throw her down the stairs.
She violated innocent kids, as a predator. My Aunt could never understand doing s/thing like this.
Then, my H was so easy to beat down, once I got gut level strength. It was SO easy. I suffered for nothing ALL these years.
What a joke. I was fine and my H could be beaten down ,like falling off a log.
I really and truly could kill s/one or s/thing. I am afraid of this anger. I really see how people expode ,after a lifetime of stuffing anger. I see how people hit people or kill people. My son,Scott, wanted to kill himself ,on my H's birthday.He did it, a day later. He left a note that he could never forgive my H and how much he hated him. The note dissapeared.Scott was so angry,but could not put it on the person he should have. I put anger many different places. It IS scary when it comes out ,though--very,very scary.I guess I will take a hot, hot bath and try to let it melt(hopefully) Thanks again for all your insightful and caring responses. Ami
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I know Ami. It is sometimes easier believe it or not, to be angry than to be hurt. I don't want anyone to know how deeply they hurt me.
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Dear Seajoy,
Could you explain HOW hurt is under anger. Thanks so much Ami
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I'm so very sorry about your son. You have every right to your rage. And as for homicidal rage--what else CAN you have? We all want to survive and there's someone out there who quite clearly makes that as hard as he can for you, for Scott. If you feel someone wants to kill you, even if not physically, I think it's perfectly natural to want to obliterate that person. I don't know how old Scott was, or how long ago this happened. In my family, three of the four children attempted suicide, though none succeeded. Hang in there. I wonder--maybe this isn't a good thing to ask, I certainly don't want to make anything harder for you--but I wonder if it would be possible for you to channel your actions FOR your son. He would want you to survive, to feel strong and in time, happy and peaceful, wouldn't he? I agree that it is sometimes easier to be angry than hurt. Anger can be a defense against unbearable pain. And yes, to hot baths. I take many.
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Dear Gjazz,
You can ask anything. I know it will be with love. I am trying to live my life as a full person b/c Scott loved me and would want me to. I want to live life whole, for a change,if you know what I mean ,and I bet you do! Love Ami
((((((((Gjazz))))))))
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I do indeed. Hugs to you. I get homicidal rages too, but less frequently now. I grew up believing that my NF wanted me to kill myself. I still believe that--he dislikes children intensely. And so dutifully I tried, at ages 11 and 14. Then, after the second attempt, I realized I hated him so much that no frigging way was I going to do his bidding. That was my first real rage at him, so I feel that anger can have positive effects. It's just hard if not impossible to see that at the time, because you just want to throttle someone. And oh yes, my NF's response to those attempts? "You only did that to hurt me."
Ah. Who knew?
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My friend told me that she heard my H tell Scott that it would destroy my H IF Scott killed himself. Scott left the note that he could never forgive my H and killed himself a day after my H's birthday.
I believe in Heaven as an actual place, where Scott is "alive " now and I will see him, again. This is one of the main reasons I can go on.
Today, I feel better, with the anger. Anger is s/thing you NEED in your tool box of emotions. If not, you will be set up for abuse, again.It is pitiful,but true.
I have to be wiser about life, without getting too "hard". That is a balancing act(lol) Love Ami
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Ami: so glad you are over that initial rage hump. What your husband said is unforgivable. Suggesting your son fight back by self-destructing--it's what my NF did, too. Have a good day. I've lost a couple family members over the past six years and, despite a lifetime of skepticism, have come to realize that not only do they go to a better place, they also come around. This Easter I was having a tough time--suicidal thoughts, which I get from time to time still--and went outside and lay on a chaise, and there was a pure white dove sitting above me on the fence, watching me. Never seen it before or since. Even before I actually saw it I felt a sense of peace come over me, and that's why I opened my eyes and looked that way. It sat there for a long time--a couple of minutes, I'd say, long for a bird to sit still, then flew a single circle over my backyard and off.
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No. Gjazz
My H did not tell my son to fight back by self destructing. My H said it would "kill" HIM, if my son committed suicide.
My son did it, I think,in part, as an act of revenge to my H.Of course, my son's thinking was very "off" to have gotten to that point.My H "took" him as a Golden Boy . Scott could not reconcile his deep feelings of antipathy to his father and I think that was what the trigger was for Scott's death. Ami
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Right--I think my phrasing was just bad there. I mean your H told Scott that if Scott killed himself, it would hurt or kill his tormentor. So while it is a very confused, twisted thing, your NH made it almost an incentive--I can hurt my father, get revenge.
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YES, Gjazz.
That is what happened, exactly.Thanks for your help and understanding. Love, Ami
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With my NF, too. I've wondered many, many times if his whole "If anyone hurts themselves they are only doing it to hurt me" blabathon was intended as incentive or was just another mindless manifestation of him thinking of himself as the center of everyone's universe. I've talked to my mother about it and she believes he was very much trying to get her to commit suicide. Trying to make her think she was crazy. Trying to convince her family she was crazy. So in the evil vs. emotional moron debate, she comes down on the side of evil, and I do, too. Instead of Daddy Warbucks we had Daddy Gaslight.
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Wow Gjazz and Ami, I suddenly understand why I tried to commit suicide when I was a child. It wasn't so much that I wanted to, which is why I didn't succeed but because my narc mother wanted me to so she could be rid of me. She professed to loving me and blah, blah but the reality is she would secretly have been very pleased to be rid of the person, she found impossible ( to deal with). Thank you for this extremely insightful discussion.
Kim in Oz
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I am sorry, Kim. Love, Ami
((((((((((Kim))))))))))
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Ami,
I really feel for you. You have been thru such a devastating loss.
Have you spoken to your Ann about this anger? If so, what did she say?
w/love,
ann
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Dear Ann3,
i did not even think about talking to Ann about it. I am going to talk to her on Wed, so you can do it, then. I have SO much anger, Ann.
I realize that I did not feel like I could "protect" myself. Self protection was stripped from me and that was what allowed me to get to this point.
I did not feel like I could nurture and protect myself. My H swooped in like a bird. Now, he swooped out b/c I LOOK like I could kill s/one(LOL). Love Ami
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I have SO much rage against my H. I realized that my M does love me and is trying to be good to me,in the best way she can. I have to take her off the hook and try to claim my lfe.
My H is another story b/c he does not have that type of love.He wants to keep me under his thumb,but can't b/c I look like I could kill s/one(LOL) Ami
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Ami, my love,
I'm concerned about you. I know what it's like to be overwhelmed by rage ,like a wave that hits you, knocks you down. I was concerned when you posted about the homocidal stuff. Maybe an outlet would be exercise, to let it out of your body or a massage, I don't know. I just hope you're OK. I mean I know you're not "OK", but I hope you won't hurt yourself physically or emotionally.
Why wouldn't you discuss this rage with Ann?
sending you love,
ann
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Ami, get a pillow and pretend it is your H. Beat the stuffing out of it and express your rage that way. Keep going until you are exhausted. Sometimes, I have had to do that. It is better than pulling all the crockery out the cupboard and throwing it against the wall. I did that once and it created too much mess. I then tried tipping all the underwear, socks etc out of the drawer. That also helped to calm me when I had to sort it out so I could put it away again. Get a tennis ball and pretend it is your H's head, hit it against the wall with a tennis racquet. Buy a punching bag, think of it as his head. Get a dart board and some darts, throw as is you are beating the poison out of him.If you have to cook his meals make sure you use heaps of chilli, that will quieten him down for a while. Make the most disgusting meals, using ingredients, which don't go together. Throw all his clothes on the front lawn. Hide his favourite things away or throw them in the bin. Get really nasty. I used to think up ways to get back at him. Then I would picture doing that, and dissolve in fits of laughter, and that would break the tension.
Don't get in your car and speed off, disobeying all the road rules. Don't waste your time, berating him.
Rage is something I know a lot about, as you can see from the above.
Good luck
Kim in Oz
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Dear Ann and Kim,
Thank you for caring. I can "feel" it in the posts.
I feel a little better for the moment. My friend said to just let the anger go by. I was getting messed up by feeling guilty. I feel guilty to be angry at my H. I know it sounds sick to say this, but I do. He did do good things over the years and I kinow ,intellectually, that he cannot help being an N, BUT my body is angry, super, super angry.
My friend said that I have to be selfish,now, to heal and honor my own life, not worry about my H and "hurting" him.
That is right. I know my H did not mean to hurt Scott or anyone BUT he ,still, does nor know how to be different and would hurt people again, me included, if I let up on my strength.
Dear Izzy,
I can't answer all those questions. It is just too much to go over. Ami
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Izzy: I'm curious. What positive, productive result did you intend would come from your statement "May you never rest in peace?"
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Wow Izzy,I am really surprised at you. In my therapy session today, my T and I agreed that one of the worst things a human can do is to judge, whether we judge ourselves or judge other people. I think you have judged Ami in a very harsh and cruel way. It seems you are disappointed and angry at Ami because she is not living up to your expectations. I have learned that it is wrong to judge and punish others because we feel they didn't live up to our expectations.
I think you make unsupported assumptions about Ami's relationship with her son. None of us has all the facts and even if we did, we, including Ami, cannot mind read how a person may have felt at a given time. I think Ami can never really know for sure why Scott (may he rest in peace) did what he did and we certainly cannot know.
If you're angry at Ami,please do not express your anger towards her like this, it's just too cruel. I am so surprised at the depth of your cruelty. What if, Gd forbid, you found yourself in a similar situation regarding your child? Can we all not walk a mile in each other's shoes?
Ami is in mourning and in grief over an immense loss. Even if you disagree with some of the things that Ami does, have you no compassion? I can only assume that you have really hurt Ami by using poisonous words. I think you have done a really terrible thing.
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(((((((((((((((((((((((AMI)))))))))))))))))))))))
I hope these cruel words have not done further damage to you.
I am rooting for you on your road to wellness.
((((((((((((((((((((((AMI))))))))))))))))))))))))
Lovingly,
ann
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Izzy,
One more thing to think about:
Many of us here suffer the effects of verbal abuse. This verbal abuse may come from our parents, spouses, who ever. I think you have verbally abused Ami. And, the cruel irony is that you did it on a voicelessness board, a board where people had or have no voice because they suffered the effects of abuse, including verbal abuse. I suppose the victims of abuse sometimes abuse other victims of abuse.
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I didn't ask how you would feel, Izzy. Your post was intended to be helpful, correct? Isn't that the point of these message boards? So I was asking how that statement "may you never rest in peace" might be helpful to Ami.
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Dear Iz,
I think you are wrong to attack Ami the way you have on this thread. I think you should delete your posts and apologize. I have admired your straight forwardness, but the things you've said here go far beyond the spirit of straight forwardness. What you've said is very cruel, inhumane and uncalled for.
tt
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Izzy,
You have damaged my trust in people. One of my problems is that I don't trust people. I thought I kinda 'knew' you: a straight talker who could see truth. I'm upset because I think what you have done is evil and it hurts to say that.
I feel you've done a Jekle & Hyde: you drank the potion and now you've said some monsterous things. I feel damaged by it, so I can only imagine what Ami would feel. Izzy, please delete your posts. There is NO WAY they can help Ami, they only enable you to vent bile.
I hope you can find it in your heart to apologize to Ami.
Izzy, love is the only thing that makes our lives worth living. Hate leads to destruction: destruction of ourselves and other people.
Please reconsider your actions. We all make mistakes.
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So ami cannot YET stand up for herself?
Izzy,
are you trying to pick a knife fight w/ Ami? This isn't West Side Story, jets & sharks. C'mon, get over yourself.
If you are trying to teach Ami how to stand up for herself, you have failed. The only thing you are doing is attacking her. Can't you see that???
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Ami,
I think I understand somewhat. I have had rage. I think when your trying to understand (just even yourself) or what it's all about and your own worth and worrying about everyone else (your children) and there is so much going on and then something like what happened to you I fully understand your feelings of rage! I would feel the same. Like I said I have had rage. It consumed me for a bit. I let it roll in and right out. I don't think there was any other way to get rid of it then to feel it. I was pissed. Intensely Angry and had every right to be. I wanted to feel it and let it roll off. Like a wave crashing the shore then pulling back out to sea. Almost like a cleansing so I could feel my other emotions. My anger was deep deep hurt. It all rolled up into a ball and rage was the leader.
Every other word out of my mouth was the F word. I laugh now because that F word was a whole *healing therapy session* of it's own. Now don't go and do what I did. I think I would have been better hitting the gym instead of the F words.
What I'm trying to say is I do understand feelings of rage Ami. It will pass. Just no F words please (lol) or if it helps knock yourself out (lol).
Love
Deb
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Iz,
I also have always respected you for being a straight shooter. I understand through your reads your one who sugar coats nothing and expects the same in return. I think we are on the same page here.
You deal with reality as you see it, so do I, well I hope I do, sometimes it's not always what I thought it was. We have all had some kind of horrendous time on here in our life some worse then others. Some we can understand and others we cannot because we have not fully walked in their shoes.
I myself have not dealt with parents so many on here have. I try to understand the best I can but how can I ever if I have not been in that position. I really cannot. I have dealt with a husband who was crazy but parents no I haven't. I can't answer or respond with a WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU DAMN KIDS I blame you. WHY DIDN'T YOU GO TO THE SCHOOL OR THE POLICE it's your fault. People can say to me WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU. YOU WERE AN ADULT, it's your fault. And so on and so forth. (note) I really don't feel this way. Well about myself yes to some degree but I was an adult. I lost a child Iz. I was right in the middle of craziness. I was exhausted and fighting and didn't take care of myself the way I should have. When I gave birth I came home and fit into a size 3 that was to big on me. The first thing the Dr's said to me before I could open my mouth was IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT,what if people blamed me. If you would have slept, left taken better care of yourself held me responsible called me out on it challenged me to it (I don't know what I would have done) I was out of my mind with grief. I did not talk about the death either or very little. I talked about everything else but that. I am sure people thought it didn't bother me and there were comments made. But they knew shit. They didn't know how I felt. I went on with everyday life (so I thought) it came out when I was ready and to whom I wanted to share it with. And it came out in rage like Ami. It was not my fault as it is not Ami's fault. My D died because of genetics and Ami's son took his own life. I was left to deal with it as Ami is. Not anyone else. No one.
So this takes us to all kinds of people and how they handle things. Lets not forget there is ALOT of abuse that went on. It takes years and some a lifetime to get over and maybe they never do.
I have never walked in your shoes, the adult children's shoe or anyone who has lost a child (adult) or a long term bonding with one especially the way Ami has lost hers.
I cannot change your thinking as you can not change mine and that's alright but PLEASE, PLEASE with all due respect remove this post to Ami it is so damaging to her. You want her to stand up for herself I don't think she can hardly stand right now. There is a reason why she came to this board in the first place.
You asked for a challenge she declined please let it go. Izzy please have a heart. Let her be.
Now is not the time to call a challenge. Please Izzy. Remove the post. I am begging you. We really know shit and that is real. Let her be. You don't need the challenge it's not yours or mine or anyones on this board. Please Iz.
Love
Deb
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Izzy
You are a very distorted person and so I take what you have written as I would any distorted person. Ami
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I take what happens on the board as a way to learn how to deal with 'real" life. I think that whatever happens on the board could happen in real life. I have dealt with hundreds of people since Scott died and not had one cruel comment. I have read books on grieving where people will make thoughtless comments.
I was afraid of not being able to deal with it. My 3D world is somewhat "safe" from this sort of thing b/c I have lived in the same place for over 20 years. However, that "protection" is a false fortress . If I were not "safe", I may have gotten thoughtless (cruel)comments before this.
The answer, for me, is to find my voice. I can't sanitize life, so I don't get hurt. I "tried" to sanitize life so I wouldn't get hurt. It is called emotional illness. Health is learning to deal with "what is".
Pain and people hurting you is "what is" in life.
I have been afraid of this type of thing happening to me. I have been afraid of being humiliated and not knowing what to do .
My life could be subtitied "Running from Shame".
I see that there is no place to run ,except total isolation.Even total isolation does not work. The answer is to have tools in your emotional toolbox to handle what life "throws at you". That is what "normal "(healthy) people do.Normal people don't need to run from the world. They have a voice which stands up for them .They can face life with their voice.
I cannot control the outside.
Anyone could say s/thing painful to me.
If I can't stand up with my voice, I will forever be controlled by that fear.
Ami
Thank you Deb,Ann, Kim, Gaining Strength, Teartracks and Gjazz. Even though a person has to find their voice for themselves, it helps tremendously to have support in the process. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
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Debkor: Your story sounds like my mom's, in that she was married to an N but not raised by one. She never lost a child but my NF always made sure she knew he was with another woman while she was in the hospital giving birth. So sorry for your terrible loss. Hope this is a good place for healing for you. And it wasn't your fault.
Ami: My point, in asking Izzy what she felt was beneficial about her comment (I chose one comment, could have chosen several) had only point: there was no answer, and thus none what forthcoming. If I were you, I could not react with compassion to what she has written, as Debkor did so poignantly, but I'd only add this: it really had nothing to do with you. It was a selfish and, let's face it, bizarre and rather confused reaction to a bunch of hypothetical conclusions drawn by someone who doesn't know you, didn't know Scott, has no idea what happened. When the initial assault didn't seem to work, there was a secondary, equally if not more bizarre, schoolyard bully "won't come out and fight, eh?" follow-up that left me wondering, frankly, if Izzy had chugged just a little too much proof that God loves us.
Hey, I'm new here, I'm just in it to help and be helped as best I can, so maybe in this case it's fair to consider all potential causes of that little diatribe. None of us know who we're talking to, or what their particular situation is. Grieving, homicidal, suicidal, nun, felon, sane or not sane.
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Hi everybody,
I received many requests that Izzy's posts on this thread be deleted. Bravo to Ami for being able to stand up for herself in such a trying time.
Best,
Richard