Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on April 08, 2008, 01:15:09 PM
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In the last few weeks I got wind of a few strikes N saint, or now to my realization, psychopath saint has taken against me. My gut tells me that she has fabricated false evidence against me; perhaps taking the only two short emails that I wrote her, out of my righteous indignation (as I was working through deep memory layers), and altering them to make me look really bad.
She has forwarded these emails on to my ministry and my parish, putting me to a social death. When people see or think that you are crazy they tend to dismiss you in their mind, they write you off.
The secretary of my parish even told me "to be gentle to others." It was like a serrated knife riping through my chest.
The looks and coldness I get from people is the worse especially since this past year I have worked so hard on my anger issues....there was recent conflict on the board and I was not a part of it.....that is progress.....I cannot handle hostility anymore!
Love you Ami!!
This past year I have worked my hardest through my rage and anger, the pain feeling like a knife sinking slowly in my chest, all the while I pray and seek forgiveness. More tears have wrung out of me than I could have ever imagined.
But now I feel deep burning shame, again, another layer. I mourn the loss of my voice. I've been too numb and ashamed to even speak here on this board.
N psychopath has a silent aggressive mission to silence my voice. She is using shame as her weapon, using my anger against me as a weapon and using my most painful scar/wound of abandonment as a weapon. She is making me out to be the aggressor and herself out to be the victim. In my distress, confusion, anger, bewilderment, rage, tears, heartache, paranoia (not knowing who to trust) I've become isolated and neurotic.
I'm going to dissapear, I'm so tired of hurting I can't breath. I'm so tired of crying my eyes are dry. I feel like nothing but a useless crazy, mentally ill and unwanted person. Is there no place for me in society except a message board?
From article: http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm
Tim Field, a noted author and researcher of psychopathy, believes that the psychopath picks out people who can see through him: "A bully's (sociopath) apparent self-esteem and self-confidence is actually arrogance, an unsustainable belief of invulnerability honed from his willingness to act outside the bounds of society to ensure their survival. Targets (or victims) are people who can see through the arrogance to perceive the empty shell behind it - and bullies can sense who can see through them, furthering the target's elimination." [Bully OnLine]. This usually happens in the workplace, and in situations where the psychopath has let his mask drop.
P Saint's ego cannot handle a person knowing who she really is -- this is why she wants me dead.
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Can anyone tell me what the difference between a narcissist and psychopath is?
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No. I thought I knew until you asked. But I can tell you that there is a place in society for you besides a message board. You cannot give up. I know that you are worn out of fighting but now is when the battle really wages. Nsaint/NPsycopath cannot win if you refuse to take on what she has dumped on you.
You are not the altered e-mails. You are not even you own anger. You are the person who carries the good that you know you have. Nsaint/NPsycopath is defining you because that is what you are familiar with. Someone just like Nsaint/NPsycopath has definied you in the past. Now it is YOUR turn to define yourself. You can do it.
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Wow GS -- your words are AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!! Did the Holy Spirit just do a download on you before you wrote that?
Thanks for your encouragement -- when you get isolated because of the paranoia of not knowing who to trust it is easy to start believing your own lies again.
(((((GS)))) Thanks!
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I have lived that Gabben. It took me several years to get out of it and along the way I made some errors that seems to just fall in on me. I found people to be inhuman and the worse off I was the more trampled I got. I still cannot believe how inhuman people can be. And people in the church can be the very worst. It is appalling.
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I have lived that Gabben. It took me several years to get out of it and along the way I made some errors that seems to just fall in on me. I found people to be inhuman and the worse off I was the more trampled I got. I still cannot believe how inhuman people can be. And people in the church can be the very worst. It is appalling.
Thanks GS -- I know exactly what you mean, I'm unimpressed with my church and pastor and with people there in general.
I want to leave but I can't leave Christ. So I am going to simply duck away as silently as I can and go get lost in the crowd at some other church so I can take Communion and still pray and love the liturgy. Just as I am dead and useless to everyone I feel like simply acting that way. It is not revenge....I need to respect and protect myself and right about now I trust no one.
It hurts to not be able to trust others, it hurts so much.
Really this is the pain of being a little girl and realizing that I could not trust my mom...the loss of trust is wound, the loss hope in rescue because my dad walked out and never came back. How many times do we have to have a knife stabbed into us?
At least my rage and anger is gone, somewhat, I still feel anger but it is so mild compared to what I used to experience, it is really more like disgust and nausea at the inhuman, cowardice and lack of compassion in this world. Just absorbing that truth is traumatic.
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Lise, I wonder if there's any way for you to change churches? Why remain a target for this woman at all? I don't mean give up your work, just find another garden to hoe in, know what I mean?
In tai chi, it's a technique called removing the target of the attack - it's meant to be an aggressive maneuver; not defensive.
Hi Amber,
Nice to hear from you. Yes, I have thought of that and I actually tried that. But I was sort of swept back to my church by God, of all people. But I can feel God's protection and love for me guiding me towards another parish this time...I can hear Him saying "I know child, it hurts, you deserve better."
He is the only one that knows the shoes I have walked in and the integrity and authenticity which I strive for in this situation, I did not know that I was supposed to be perfect. I'm unimpressed with my parish and pastor.
Anyway, I prayed and I keep getting another parish in mind. It will be sad for me but coping with that is nothing compared to what I have had to cope with. I already tried to leave my parish once, I was like "here N saint -- take it all", I don't care, I am not out to win, I just wanted peace and love. This time I am leaving for good, for my sanity.
What astounds me is that I try so hard to live the Gospel and to really heal so that I can grow in love and yet my own parish rejects me, it hurts so much I want to vomit.
I'm a hypocrite.
At least God loves me.
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Exactly, thanks.
It just hurts, mourning the loss of my parish...this one hurts. I'm so glad that I have a wedding to attend out of state this weekend with real friends. It will help push me through this first week.
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Dear Lise,
I am sorry you are hurting. I know those feelings of "Why bother?"It is so easy for us to want to give up and just "evaporate".Ann says we(abused people) have an "orphan spirit". We don't feel like we have a place on earth.
I can hear your pain,Lise. I wish I could help. I would do whatever I could to help.
Love, Ami
(((((((Lise))))))))
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Dear Lise,
I am sorry you are hurting. I know those feelings of "Why bother?"It is so easy for us to want to give up and just "evaporate".Ann says we(abused people) have an "orphan spirit". We don't feel like we have a place on earth.
I can hear your pain,Lise. I wish I could help. I would do whatever I could to help.
Love, Ami
(((((((Lise))))))))
Orphan spirit -- I like that, that is how I feel. It all relates to having my voice orphaned.
Right now I am feeling what feels like the long sharp jab of a serrated knife in my chest being slowing pulled out by N saint, with those predatory black eyes of hers, while she sadistically grins and wisphers "how dare you think you can tarnish my image, all you had is now mine."
Not to keep score but let's see what she has taken from me this year:
1. My reputation
2. My spiritual director
3. My dignity
4. My ministry
5. My hairstyle and wardrobe
6. Some friends
7. My ministry, my passion
8. My parish
9. Time spent in distress over her ruthless actions
10. Opportunities for me to use my gifts and talents.
11. My dignty
Now let's see what she have given me by her taking:
1. A deeper relationship with God, faith
2. More healing and insight about my childhood, growth.
3. A more discerning eye
4. Knowledge about Narcissism and Psychopathy
5. An emerging authentic voice
6. This message board
7. More freedom from self
What I have retained:
1. My goodness
2. My gifts
3. My love for God
4. My Faith
5. My health
6. My home
7. My family and close friends
8. My freedom
Ami -- the pain is so painful....it burns, it hurts, it aches like nothing I have ever experienced before....I can barely breath...please God let this be the darkness before the dawn. I have just about given up all hope and I am so frightened.
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Dear Lise,
This morning, I thought I would have a heart attack, I hurt so badly. I think I understand your pain. I know we are different people,but I am hurting like hell,right now, too.
I feel like "Why bother?" with all this self growth when I can get squished down so fast and furiously and feel so hopeless. I bet you feel the same way, if I am not mistaken.
We try so hard to heal and be whole. Then, we get shoved down under a tidal wave from the outside AND our own shame and we don't want to bother getting up again, to try again.
I hope I am not being presumptuous in comparing you to me.
I think we are going through something similar, feelings wise.
I just feel like "Why bother to try to get whole?"----bleh.
Can you relate ,Lise? Love Ami
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Hi Ami -- suicidal thoughts are racing through my mind. I feel like going there....I feel so useless, unwanted, and without a home. I feel so "bad" for expressing my anger to the psychopath.
Suicide feels like an option right about now -- I have almost given up hope in God and hope in life.
NO -- you are not presumptuous.
I feel like "Why bother?" with all this self growth when I can get squished down so fast and furiously and feel so hopeless. I bet you feel the same way, if I am not mistaken.
We try so hard to heal and be whole. Then, we get shoved down under a tidal wave from the outside AND our own shame and we don't want to bother getting up again, to try again.
I feel this way too. It feels as if someone stuck a wad of explosions in my chest and then lit the fuse. The burning ache is indescribable.
No one will listen, no one will call, no one cares.
Ouch -- Let me offer this up and just try to breath my way through another day.
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Dear Lise,
Scott commited suicide and s/one lashed in to me so cruely . I have such a bad stomach ache. I feel I AM so bad, just as my NM told me I was.
I despair of ever holding my head up and claiming my place in life . I think maybe my NM was RIGHT all along. Maybe I AM that horrible ,bad person who DESERVED all that cutting, decimating, burning, caustic ,degrading shame to pour on my head?
I understand ,Lise. I understand. We will get through together. What do you say? Love Ami
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Dear Lise,
You and I always seek the truth. The truth is that it is NOT the N saint or the person who hurt me who is the problem. It is OUR shame. It is within us.
EVEN if they did not trigger it, we are still running all the time ,on the gerbil wheel, to get away from it.
We have to look at the truth. There will ALWAYS be people put there to hurt us. Just walk out the door.
It is out there ,waiting to happen.
Shame is out there ,like a bogeyman.
It is good when it does, in a way, b/c we are FORCED to face ourselves.
Addictions(any) are running away from shame. I have tried to shop it away and get enough approval to push it away, but it never worked and never will..
We have to look it in the eye, Lise.
Maybe, it was not a coincidence that we are both hurting,today, so we can help each other. What do you say? Take my hand as we did the first night you came on the board? Love Ami
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Oh Ami -- I am so sorry. I read the "rage" thread this morning. It was like your worst fear come true. My dearest (((Ami)))
Here you are searching and seeking truth and healing, God does not make us perfect in a year or even a lifetime.
His love and Mercy for us is abundant. What feels so shameful is others who have never walked in our shoes and who have cold hearts and no compassion. They do not want to hear our pain because it touches too deeply their own. They are weak and frightened humans. Perhaps I should walk in their shoes....so that I can be more compassionate to them and their weakness?
For the moment, I'm too tired of walking in others shoes when no one even at least tries to walk in mine for even 10 seconds.
We will get through this together.
Let's talk about our childhoods and where the pain is really coming from, OK?
Thank you -- I'm taking your hand...I'm crying those tears.
For days I have not been able to eat or sleep. I awoke last night at 3:00 am and could not get back to sleep. I'm tired, wrung out, exhausted, and so ashamed.
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Dear Lise,
I am glad this happened to me today, so we can get through it ,together.We can help each other.I am at the bottom , too, so I can "feel" what you are going through, NOT just "know" it, intellectually.It was not a coincidence, Lise. I feel horrible ,too.As I feel this pain and express it, I see that it was NOT ours ,but the people who put it on us.We get sucked in b/c we have the shame within us ,at such a profound level.. It is a chance to heal. The Janet thread taught me how to fight with strength and dignity. I have used that in real life. We will use these lessons, Lise.
Love , Ami
PS Jesus had righteous anger. There is nothing wrong with our being angry at being violated. S/times people try to "walk in other people's shoes" too much.Sometimes, it is healthy to take care of ourselves and use our strength to fight back(verbally). That is health(IMO)
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You hurt me very,very deeply today. I have had a stomach ache all day and feel really discouraged and in despair. Don't you get any of that? Ami
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Dear Izzy,
Your behavior recently on this board had been out-of-hand. There seems to be a great deal of bullying coming from you towards Ami.
Your behavior is critical and attacking of Ami.
Perhaps some of your anger is coming up and your pain is coming up?
Whenever we start pointing fingers and focusing on others we are basically trying to tell the world the story of our pain.
Were you criticized and ridiculed when you were a child? Where you ignored when you were a child......if so.....how dare they....YOU Izzy deserve better.....you never deserved to be ignored!!!!
Cry...hurt, pound your fists on the table in anger (((((IZZY))))) BUT....please don't pound Ami anymore....we both care about you.
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I wish I could say THAT to your N Saint,Lise. Give me her number and *I* will. I mean it. Love Ami
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You know ,Lise. There is a time for compassion AND a time when a person has to be responsible for WHAT comes out of their mouth. I think that we GET abused again and again b/c we do not stand up and call abuse what it is . The person who DOES it is responsible for rectifying it--NOT US! Ami
Izzy---I cannot follow your thinking, so I will disengage .
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I appreciate Lise helping me ,Izzy. I could use help, actually. Ami
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Izzy,
I am astounded at how you act and THEN try to abdicate responsibility for it. I really, really am.
I don't "GET IT" and hope I never do!
Izzy --I do not want to engage with you in PM's.
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Dear Lise,'
I am here to continue the discussion on shame ,if you want to. You may need to keep talking. Love Ami
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Iz,
Ami,
Can you not understand and fill your soul with the fact that you are totally separate from your mother and father? You are you! You did NOT have tio always compare yourself to your mother (the real problem you have)
Put thoughts of her out of your mind. Think only of yourself (that is not selfish) and put yourself together as you really are! You can figure that out by understanding YOUR beliefs and YOUR goals, and YOUR actions, Make a point to dwell on YOU, and do not even talk to your mother for a week. (or more). See how you feel. Do your cleaning, shopping, cooking, posts, doggie work, without ONE thought of whether or not your mother would approve.....................
As long as YOU approve of what you do, you are making millions of miles of headway!!
xx
Izzy
I had done this. I had been so caught up in exh I forgot who I was. I dwelled on him and his problems which held me back from working on my own and being a separate person. It was so hard to separate and took lots of work but it worked.
Love
Deb
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I wish I could say THAT to your N Saint,Lise. Give me her number and *I* will. I mean it. Love Ami
Ami -- she would not get it. She has zero remorse and zero guilt (no conscious)....it would be pointless, she would only see you has attacking her.
But thank you for saying that. That is the first time this entire year that anyone has been willing to stand up for me.
Lise
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Did you ever hear of someone so hysterical that s/he had to be slapped in the face (out of concern) to bring back reality?
Izzy -- don't you think you have slapped Ami in the face enough?
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Dear Lise,
I am sorry you feel so alone and unprotected. I wish I could do something. Ann talks about our being dishonored. You are expressing the feeling of being dishonored and unprotected. We don't protect ourselves enough b/c we were denuded of that self protective instinct. I think that we need to be good and angry when we are dishonored NOT turn it on ourselves. . I think that people who follow the Bible can MISINTERPRET the Bible and take rotten treatment when they should FIGHT, NOT worry about how the other person is doing. I think that is a big part of our problem, Lise--displaced anger.
I wish I could do s/thing concrete to help you.
Thank you for your kind words . Love Ami
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Izzy,
You can see Lise is hurting. Why don't you just leave her alone? I think she is telling you this!
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Dear Lise,'
I am here to continue the discussion on shame ,if you want to. You may need to keep talking. Love Ami
Ami --I am here, barely. I need to be away for awhile. I can barely breath or talk right now.
I'll get back to you.
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I am here,by phone or PM, Lise Love Ami
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((((((((Lise)))))))))
Just want to tell you that I don't like to see this thread that you began - in order to express your feelings about your own situation and feelings - turn into yet another discussion of somebody else's issues. Seems like that happens regularly around here... and I don't like it.
What I think is irrelevant, but I'll express it anyway: to me, this is your thread, your time, your expression, and your opportunity to gather comfort.
I feel anger and frustration at what I see as yet another drama/distraction/blah,blah,blah.
Anyhow, I also think that your current "fellowship" is too small to contain what God wants to do through you, dear Lise.
You are a beautiful spirit.
Love,
Carolyn
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OK I'm coming in late on this. But your initial question: psychopath vs. narcissist? is one that I've debated, internally, so many times I cannot count. My NF is both. When I was doing research I understood "psychopath" pretty early. Narcissism took longer, and it seems to me a subcategory of psychopaths. Meaning there are pure psychopaths who can kill simply because they want to have sex and don't want to get arrested for rape. And there are pure psychopaths who can kill purely because it's convenient. But narcissists get something--really get something--out of hurting people. I think for a P it can be about just getting away, for an NP it must be more.
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OK I'm coming in late on this. But your initial question: psychopath vs. narcissist? is one that I've debated, internally, so many times I cannot count. My NF is both. When I was doing research I understood "psychopath" pretty early. Narcissism took longer, and it seems to me a subcategory of psychopaths. Meaning there are pure psychopaths who can kill simply because they want to have sex and don't want to get arrested for rape. And there are pure psychopaths who can kill purely because it's convenient. But narcissists get something--really get something--out of hurting people. I think for a P it can be about just getting away, for an NP it must be more.
Thank you gjazz... that opened to some insight. One thing that I a have thought about is that psychopaths lack a concious where as N's have the ability to discern right from wrong yet they may be so deluded by there projective identification that they cannot risk going to their concious, they are split off. I think P's have something in the brain that is not working; they cannot connect their thinking to there emotions...or something like that.
This was interesting:
Sociopaths have always existed in varying form and to various degrees. They have been known by various titles. They have been studied using various techniques, and through the years their ailment has been blamed on various causes. But one thing never varies: all sociopaths share three common characteristics. They are all very egocentric individuals with no empathy for others, and they are incapable of feeling remorse or guilt. [The Sociopath Rebecca Horton (April 1999)]
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Lise, I am so sorry you are in so much pain! If it's any consolation to you the N saint occupies an even lower rung of hell than you do right now, with no hope of redemption because she lives in a world of self-made lies that she has no hope of escaping. Her whole foundation is a house of cards that collapses the moment someone (like you) sees it. Realize the power you have over her just because you know the truth about her. Just the FACT of your knowledge scares her so much she feels compelled to drive you away or destroy you.
But she really has no power to destroy you unless you help her. Don't go into her house of mirrors. Her only weapons are illusions. The mere fact that most people around her believe in them doesn't make them true and she knows it. Do YOU forget it! You must not get involved in the mind games. She is a master illusionist and you cannot not win over people lost to her without losing your own soul.
You have far more power over her than you imagine. Notice that she cannot look you in the eye. She is terrified of you, of your knowledge of her true nature. Don't aid her by giving away your own power. She cannot take any of these things from you unless you give them away. Forget the 'looks' people give you. Their thoughts are completely irrelevant to your mission in life--they don't amount to a hill of beans. Stay away from the mind games! It's the only way she can win. I hope this helps. You KNOW that I have 'been there.' (ten years worth with my Saintly N). ALL of her power over you is an illusion.
Bill
Right now I am feeling what feels like the long sharp jab of a serrated knife in my chest being slowing pulled out by N saint, with those predatory black eyes of hers, while she sadistically grins and wisphers "how dare you think you can tarnish my image, all you had is now mine."
Not to keep score but let's see what she has taken from me this year:
1. My reputation
2. My spiritual director
3. My dignity
4. My ministry
5. My hairstyle and wardrobe
6. Some friends
7. My ministry, my passion
8. My parish
9. Time spent in distress over her ruthless actions
10. Opportunities for me to use my gifts and talents.
11. My dignty
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Carolyn,
As always you are just a sweet wonderful person. Thank you.
I'll start another thread today, if I get a chance, about my pain. I need to work some issues out but I have been experiencing trauma, shivers, can't focus, racing mind, sometimes I just catch myself staring into space my arms and chest burn...I hardly eat, do you know anything about spiritual warfare?
Right now I am wanting to push the whole experience out of my mind...it is like I am trying to force the reality of what has happened away....whenever the thought of my church comes into my mind I scream NO! --- I just want to get away.
I know that not all is evil but I can't trust and the not being able to trust is trauma in itself.
This weekend a dear friend of mine, who I nicknamed Veronica because she always helps to wipe the mud off of my face, is getting married. I'm going to Oregon, it will be beautiful up there, I need to get away. I'm thinking about taking a week off work soon, going North to sleep and drink in nature and peace....I need it.
Will you start a thread Carolyn about what is going on with you? It will be good for me to get out of myself and listen although I have a ton of deadlines here at the office today.
(((())))
L
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Gabben: I agree that Ns know the difference between right and wrong, and that's what makes the damage they inflict so insidious. Also, with their children, they sometimes teach that wrong is right, and vice versa. Your upcoming getaway sounds like just the thing. A change of physical scene can sometimes also change the "scenery" in our heads. I hope when you get away you can relax, smile, and see your way clear.
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Dear Bill -- I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your help in the last many months. I have missed your voice here but I respect your reasons to keep your distance, I fully understand why.
Your voice here, especially about the saintly N, is a blessing; your knowledge and the struggle you had to go through with Randy was not for nothing, I know you know that, it has been very helpful to me. Your insights stay in my head, they have helped to bring so much clarity, thanks.
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Dear Lise,
Re: spiritual warfare.... I know that the only ground which the devil can't steal is that on which we are standing, so - we must be sure to stand on the solid Rock, Jesus Christ, and the promises He's made. Have you put on every piece of the full armor? There's none to cover the rear, yanno... : ) No turning tail and running. Telling myself that on a regular basis these days and just thought I'd share. And another thing... the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. He doesn't take them back. Many gifts, but only one calling... not to be withdrawn. Thought I was called, once...
and I'm quite sure that you are.
About starting a thread... I'm not comfortable talking about myself here anymore, Lise. Safety is very appealing and I'm cultivating it. After spending so many years out on the edge of a limb, I've had enough... at least for this season.... Ecclesiastes 3. Retro-shyness, maybe... I dunno.
Not sure where I fit, you know? Just leaning heavily on the Lord for nurture and sustenance and putting one foot before the other.... sufficient unto the day is the trouble thereof .
Oh, yeah.
Lise, nobody can take from you what you don't offer them. What has really simplified this whole thing for me is recognizing that I am not my own... that I was bought with a very high price indeed and there's no turning back from that. I quit seeking myself and alot of rubbish faded away. When it rouses and stirs, I remember that seed which must fall into the ground and die before new life can prosper. This is not the sort of stuff that's welcome here, and yet it's all I have... and I hope it helps you. I think of you often.
With love,
Carolyn
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Thank you Carolyn -- I think of you often too. Your words to me this past year are so filling and wonderful, you have touched me in such a special way. I wish I could write you more, I have to leave.
I hear you about safety -- as I am growing and maturing I am coming to realize how important it is for me to guard my soul.
Lise, nobody can take from you what you don't offer them.
This line is going to be my food for thought for tonight.
I remember that seed which must fall into the ground and die before new life can prosper.
I feel that this line is prophetic for me...as I have just officially resigned from my parish, my heart aches but I never felt valued there, yes, I needed to heal and to grow but all year long people have been telling me to go away and heal. Now that I am coming out of all and getting so healed and strong I am leaving....Ironic...But perhaps it is like you said, there is somewhere else where God needs me.
If you ever want to be heard, but in safety, you can always PM me...I'll be here.
Night,
Lise
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Thanks, Lise.... you are so very special to me. Means alot to me to be appreciated and cared for by you.
And I hear you about not feeling valued. As I've learned to differentiate between that and feeling needed, alot of old nonsense has been purged.
You deserve the respect of your peers, Lise, as do I. Knowing that we really do deserve it makes it a whole lot less vital whether or not we receive it, I think.
Thank you for always offering to communicate, too... I really wouldn't know where to begin, at this point, but just knowing that you're willing to hear gives me great happiness :) Makes me happy, also, to think of you resting and recreating up north, away from all the ruckus.
(((((((Lise))))))) I can only imagine how difficult it was for you to resign from your beloved parish and I'm sorry it hurts so much; it's a very lovely place... at least, on the outside. But I'm absolutely certain that you'll find a place and people with a deep, inner loveliness... and maybe even where you least expect it :D
God is just cool, that way.
Hey, I will email you soon, okay?
Love,
Carolyn