Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on April 11, 2008, 09:34:30 AM
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Have you ever seen your N cry? I can only remember one time - when my NM faked being mad at me for hurting her feelings. It was so fake, everyone was embarrassed. I have seen her spit in anger, but never cry over anything. Ever. How weird is that??????? I have seen my dad cry. I don't know that I have ever seen my sister cry either.
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GS,
Oh yes and I have seen them cry hard and long and do those talk crying cries to where you are trying to make sense. And yes it was real (for them). No matter what the situation was it was for (them) and the talking part was listening to thier own words (like usual) even if you were comforting them (they still didn't hear you). They felt very bad for themselves.
As soon as that passed and it's quick they feel nothing again not even for themselves then they must get back to work, manipulating, lying, hidden agenders, and so on.
Love
Deb
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GS,
Come to think of it although I had seen the crying (real) for them there was always anger in the crying. Like a 2 year old feeling really bad for themselves and pretty much like a good heart felt tantrum.
Like Angelica from Rug Rats, IT'S NOTTTT FAIRRRRR...... IT'S NOT FAIRRRRRR.
Love
Deb
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Do Ns Cry?????
Yeah, when they get caught.
mud
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I think Ns feel real pain and even sometimes real love.
Just not real empathy.
My Nmom cried hard when her doggie died.
"I can't believe she's gone."
It was pure grief. Her dog didn't care if she was an N or not, dog loved her.
And, ultimately...grief is about ourselves, our own losses.
I think Ns are carrying a load of grief. They're always losing not just others, but sensing in some echoey way the loss of their own selves, which likely happened very very young...
Hops
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Hops,
What is love without empathy? It's no more than love of self only isn't it?
I think Ns have a sentimentality about things but not sure I'd call it love.
mud
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N trashed my car (unbeknownst to me for 2 days) and trashed the house the same night. He had taken all the Xmas decorations down waiting for me, who he had left in a restaurant because he didn't get his way. Came home and trashed my car in the heavy falling snow and I came home about 1 ½ hours later, after I ate my dinner. (He went hungry.)
He tore off his clothing and ripped it to shreds, threw his good wrist watch and his portable phone against the fireplace, upended and wrecked a plant he had grown from a shoot, poured beer on the floor, doused his cigs in the wet patch, and ripped wall hanging, very old ones, hand crafted by his grandfather and broke them over his knee. Whatever else.
I just watched the exhibition, then he yelled at me that I had spoiled Xmas...the best Xmas ever that he had planned for us then threw himself on the sofa and cried, really cried!
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Iz,
So like a child does in a tantrum and afterwards cried like they do? And you reacted like you would with a child in one?
Love
Deb
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In the six years I was with my ex she cried about 3 times, and all three happened during work when she was called to the managers office and reprimanded for not taking care of her responsibilities, or for sexual harassment charges. I was always shocked when I saw her do it. She never cried when I started decided I hated her and highly resented her, or when I wanted to pack my things and go. It seems she only cried when she got busted for behaving badly.
I haven't cried myself for a very long time, and the last few times I think I did it felt a bit like I was just feeling sorry for myself, or attempting to solicit some empathy from somebody who had none for me.
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Iz,
So like a child does in a tantrum and afterwards cried like they do? And you reacted like you would with a child in one?
Love
Deb
I would call his a full blown childish tantrum, but my child never threw one, so I have no idea what I would have done---maybe fainted from shock?
Izzy
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Iz,
Hahh! I have experienced a few from my kidos. Whoo boy!!! They were talented with the spin on the floor on a hip going in a circle kicking legs. I did the same I just looked and waited till it was over. Ofcourse they cried the same way and eventually passed out from all the hard work and exhaustion. They did have remorse and sorrow though afterwards and still the same consequence with whatever it was to start the tantrum, even if it was No you can't. So it got them no where. They learned though.
This is the crying I had seen from N's (mostly tantrums) but I did see my friend cry her eyes out (really) when her father died and say I was his favorite right in front of her sister.
Love
Deb
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I have just never seen my NM cry - not at death, births, funerals, ceremonies, nothing... She will go on and on about how distressed she is, but there is never a shred of emotion.
So, if all of you are right, and they cry only for themselves and their losses, then why doesn't she even cry for these things? I guess it just doesn't matter to her one way or another what surrounds her????? I am really puzzled, especially when you have said your have cried about something...
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GS,
I don't know. My friend while crying (really crying) said she hated to cry and felt vulnerable. Like she was weak and was angry that she was crying. She also in her (real) crying blanks out like she went to another realm where there is only her because I think there only is.
When her father died the only time she cried was right when he died and then never again.
Love
Deb
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My NF has cried a couple of times but it's very rare and, I felt, always done with one eye to manipulation. That said I agree with Hopalong's post here--my NF truly loves his dogs. They ask nothing of him (his wife feeds and picks up after them) and they show devotion and joy every time he walks in the room. He even engages in the occasional Grand Gesture with them--a steak or something for dinner. So while it's not the sort of reciprocal love we get from other people, if we're lucky and work at it, it's probably the best he can do. And I think he's smart enough to recognize he's missing something. He cannot experience what others do. he was brought up by a malignant N as well, and he realizes he's different, I just don't think he necessarily recognizes where it all came from.
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Gjazz,
My NM is very attahed to her animals too. Even to my dog... more than she is to my kids. I think it is somhow easier for them to deal with animals (no emotional confusion??????). But I don't think I have even ever seen her cry for the animals. She has said she was sad, but I always feel like she is thinking that she can get a new one.
Love, Beth
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Gjazz/ Gratitude....Herman Goering of the infamous Third Reich cried when he saw animals mistreated but he gassed millions of people......James
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james---oh yes. And I'd like to add that to this day my NF has only Austrian dogs, and is wont to say (please, I cringe, I really cringe), "Hitler was right." This does differ from how I grew up. As a child my father mistreated animals in front of me because he knew how devastating it was, and that made it good for control. I remember each instance with such sadness and fury.
But now, I have five formerly abandoned cats and various other "volunteers" who come here for comfort, health care, and peace. Raccoons, an opossum, every spring, blue jay and robin fledglings that must be saved from the cats, so we sit shifts outside, gathering them up. We do for them what nobody did for us. I worry that some N victims turn their fury on the animals who get the attention they didn't, but for me, NONE of us got any, we were in it together, and I'm grateful to be able to "talk to the animals" today. Because you know what? they really do talk!
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gjazz,
My dog always talks. I have four dogs and 5 cats. I had one dog first then adopted two more one drags his legs but he gets everywhere and one that came to stay for a month and will probably stay forever. I have your beagle Hops, her name is Stella Jo and she is a mush. Oh and a turtle with 3 legs that my son found on the side of the road. A bear that is always tearing up my garbage and a skunk that hangs out with the cats.
My exh had a dog who he loved and the dog was as much as an N as he was. I swear. He had major emotions for his dog but tried to throw my dog out a window. My dog was fine and we all moved out and lived happy.
Love
Deb
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Beth, I think it's just that for all the depressing obviousness of Ntraits, all Ns are still inidividuals, and the capacity to grieve is on a curve with them, just as it is with nonN people. Your mother is probably pretty far blunted...?
Gjazz, I love your Dr. Doolittle stories. Bless you and your critter friends.
Deb, I am so not surprised that your home is an animal haven. Please hug Stella Jo for me! (Great beagle name...)
xo
Hops
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XN was a master at turning on the tears what was interesting though was that as soon as he got his way they were shut of instantly, it was an incredible talent. Needless to say they were another tool in his supply kit.
axa
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Do Ns cry? Yes they do....but the cause of their tears always centers around them----their "perceived" hurt by someone; lack of attention for them; their perception that they were "wronged". Their tears are never about anyone else---they never cry because of someone else's pain or injustice; they never cry because of a sadness or loss of a relationship (because they care only for themselves)...
My Nmom cries only very, very rarely...When she does it is always about her...and always about getting everyone to pay her even more attention. The one time I really remember my Nmom crying is one Christmas when my Nsis refused to abide by the new "holiday rules" which were required when she disowned my brother and family because they didn't select her as godmother. That Christmas, it was my Nsister's turn to visit my parents on Christmas Eve while my brother and I got them on Christmas Day. But, as usual, my Nsis refused to go along and did not show up at Christmas at all. My Nmom refused to spend the holiday with my brother and I and instead spent the entire day on the couch crying---all because my Nsis chose to "punish" her because she didn't get her way....
On occasion, my Nmom will shed a tear or two over a heartfelt tv show or movie...but it is rare and she always find a way to use the story line to focus on her.....If I had to generalize, I would say my Nmom's tears only comes when she doesn't get what she wants---especially when her "chosen" child, my Nsis, is causing trouble or is hurt in some way. She would never shed a tear over me, my brother or my dad or anyone else for that matter...
Just another sign that Ns are truly selfish and incapable of "feeling" like normal people would...
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I love all the Dr. Doolittle stories too, and have never turned an animal away, but now things have gone too far. I have a small pond with goldfish, and a huge blue heron has taken to having hors d'oeuvres here every cocktail hour. My many rescue cats find this fabulous entertainment and refuse to intervene, though I can't really blame them, as the heron is three times their size. This has nothing to do with Ns, but it's fun to talk about other things sometimes!
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Hops,
Thank you so much for reminding me that I am looking for an answer where there isn't one. My quest sometimes is like Arthur's in The Hitchhiker's Guide... he found out the answer to the Universe is 42. Si I can pidgeonhole and try to find comparisons, but it won't change what IS. And I need to learn to live with what is. That is the point in being here. I really tend to forget that - especially when I get to feeliing I need to be right...
Axa, sunblue, I can see that being a powerful tool for an N. My NM doesn't use it because it doesn't affect me, I think. I tend to ignore her when she starts being childish, so she sticks to trying to find some way to comment on what she thinks will bother me - my body, work...
gjazz,
Your heron is a bad girl and needs to find some other fish. lol. I was afriad I would be feeding the deer this year since I planted bulbs, but Henry has peed on all of them, and I think that keeps the hungry deer away.