Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: nogadge on April 15, 2008, 03:00:32 PM
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:( In response to the small claims action against my VAN ex for having damaged the door on my car when he kicked it, He has enlisted our eldest son to say that our youngest son did the deed. He sent me a registered letter stating that our eldest would testify in court that our youngest did the damage, and our younest son has said he would tell the court he certainly did not. My ex is encouraging out eldest to commit purgery in giving false testimony and to lie about his younger brother. I am appalled with the fact that he is so willing to encourage/expect/instigate this type of dynamics between our children and especially with the trouble this means for our eldest in the eyes of the court.
I do understand justy how this will look to the courts when it comes to parental rights and how irresponsbible/damaging this type of action is to our children.
:evil:NOGADGE
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Dear nogadge,
That is a really, really bad thing to do to your sons. N's will go to incredible lengths, which should not surprise me, but do.I am sorry that you have to endure this. Love Ami
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Dear Nodage,
So your ex is an N? It is very common behavior for an N to engage the unwary in their plots to cheat. Part of the maneuver is to use another to be the capital C in the cheat game.
Do you have time and resources to see a T (perhaps with the boys), or a person of high morals to run this by who could help you and the boys and intervene before they are dragged into this publicly. I accept that my proposal is a little awkward, but I sure am concerned about how his plan will affect the boys.
Setting precidents with your boys like this could easily set a destructive pattern in their life.
Hope I'm not speaking out of turn.
tt
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Dear nogadge - as the mother of a little boy my heart bleeds for your predicament. As the sister to two brothers who were 18 months apart and treated very differently, I feel for your two boys.
My encouragement to you is to stand up for the truth. It has value and both of your boys will benefit from seeing their mother stand op to the truth and not buckling to the demands of an abusive N bully. Even your son who has agreed to the lie will benefit for having a mother who has courage. Bullies are intimidating but they are cowards and unconsciously or subconsciously children take it all in.
You are a person of courage and you know the truth.
Love and courage to you - Gaining Strength
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Ami,
:) God has blessed me thru my life...when I was in need, I found a place here. thank you,
Nogadge
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GS,
My eldest has just turned 18, and the youngest is 14. Unfortunately, I regret having taught them the lesson in life of giving and doing for the one you loves when you have given your love unconditionally to another. My children know who I am, and that I am the same today as I was yesterday and will be with them tomorrow, for them. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Doesn't matter if it's legal, if it's morally wrong, you don't do it. And this is legally, morally and ethically wrong. I am sorry for them that this is only one of the bitter lesson their father is going to teach them.
tt,
you are not out of place, our minds ran the same way. I have enlisted the wonderful mentor who has been there for both my boys (thru the church) for the past 5 years. When I gave him the run down, he will help address this, adamantly agreeing that we can not allow this to happen to our boys. He said he will not let My Michael do this against his brother Jason.
Thank you so much, Nogadge
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Nogadge: My NF did this too. He enlisted my brothers in his lies (legal and non) and set them against each other all the time. To this day, their relationships are strained. In addition he got involved in their marriages and set the wives against each other and in cases against their husbands. Once, he called me in to a meeting with his lawyers before a round of depositions and informed me what I would be saying. I was in my late twenties at the time and told him I'd tell the exact truth and nothing but, which wouldn't have helped his case at all, in fact would have helped his enemy du jour. I was never deposed. I hope your boys have the ability to stand up against their NF and of course knowing they have your backing will help. That you'll stand with them for telling the truth. I feel for you, I really do. What your husband is doing is so destructive, and your eldest son is an adult--perjury has consequences. Hang tough.
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Hey gjazz,
thanks, I know perjury has consequences, legally. I hope my sons mentor can reach him to make him aware of the truth behind his action far beyond the legal one....The damage and hurt doing this will cause to his younger brother if he still chooses to lie on him. :cry: :cry:
I just want to slap some sense into my ex...a pointless act. :(
On the flip side, my boys know I will always love them, no matter what. But, I will not support them in endeavors of this type, they are so wrong on so many levels, and yes they do have some understandings of this. I am just hoping this is something my ex has fabricated to try and intimidate me in to dropping it. I am praying my eldest is really not a party to this and hope he would never seriously consider doing this to his brother. I am going to have faith in my son, until I find out different. It is still very unsettling.
Nogadge
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Hi Nogadge,
Sadly, both parents would engage and offset their children, one against the other, for various purposes, personal pleasure or gain.
Sincerest empathy, with thoughts and prayers filled with strength and courage.
So very glad to know that you have a wonderful mentor, as a means of support network.
Leah x
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:| Leah,
If, it is in deed the case, the there is no way to offset...I will simply drop my case to prevent the pain and hurt to my youngest. I will not allow him to be hurt further by his brother in this way. Nor will I allow Michael (my eldest) to make this type of mistake. It is not worth winning to put either one of them thru this if that's what it comes to. I can not force my eldest to do the right thing, he needs to be able to make that choice on his own, and hopefully he will. Having laid a good foundation with him when he was growing up, I will trust and have faith that will prevail in this.
And YES, I am so very glad that there is someone I can call that means enough to the children for them to listen to,especially when it comes to opposing his fathers wishes because of what it really means for him to follow what his father wants him to do
Nogadge. :|
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nogadge, perhaps you can talk with the boys' mentor about your thoughts of protecting the boys by not following through on the suit. This may sound odd, but from here (that means knowing only what you have posted so very limited information) it looks as if backing down from the N bully rather than doing what is right would be more damaging that standing up for what is right.
You are definitely in a delimna! And I think you are definitely doing the right thing by considering the effect on the boys. But it is knowing what is best for them in the long run that is most difficult. What ever you decide - I am behind you 100% and I encourage you not to 2nd guess yourself. You will make the best decision that you possibly can.
That said, I still think that it is important not to model backing down to a bully. I do know that your situation is more complicated than I have made it but those my my 2 cents worth. What ever you decide - I'm behind you.
Yours,
Gaining strength
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Your boys are at an age where most kids want to please their parents, want their father's approbation. It's so awful that your ex is using this to make them act against their own best interests. Even if they make a mistake now, it's inevitable that one day, they will see your ex's actions as destructive toward them. I'm sorry you are going through this.
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Hey GS & gjazzz
Your words echo my thoughts and feeling. If I do drop, it not because I gave into my ex, but will come with the harsh reality between my eldest and myself, because by the time this comes to a head, he will be fully aware of the ramifications, and that I do this more to spare his brother at that point, and he will know how disappointed I am with jis choice for doing what he knows is the wrong thing to do.
On the other hand, if the youngest is sufficiently offened, he may feel the need to stand up for himself. In which case I will honor that.
And yes, it does gall me to have to pull back to this, if I drop. Let's see if we can ultimately pull the menucia out and all who need be able to gain strength from within to rise above the fathers actions. I will be very disappointed in my eldest, but we will work thru.
They do see the truths to their fathers actions, but their need of him is very strong and runs deep. They are just boys, it's to be expected. And me, being the one who has been there all along, gladly take the brunt.
Nogadge.
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my thoughts and prayers are with you nogadge. You will make the best decision. I believe in you.
(I love your name nogadge, please tell me what it means.)
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:wink:
Hey GS,
To my best knowledge, it used by the Gypsys'. It meaning is basically "not family, let no outsiders in." I internalized it to represent myself with regards to how I choose to look with "eyes wide shut", no more. I gave a brief note on this when I responded to the question re: choosing of names on another thread.
Thanks for asking, Nogadge.
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:?
I do not know what my final decision will be, what ever it turns out to be at the time I do it.
Nogadge :|
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If you do what is right, that's the lesson the boys will learn. It doesn't necessarily matter win vs. lose in the courts, in my opinion, because there are unjust lawyers and unjust laws, as there are unjust men (a sort of Ghandi paraphrase there). But if you stand up no matter what for honesty and full disclosure, in the end, that's what we all come down to, and your kids will know where the strength in the family lies.
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I gave a brief note on this when I responded to the question re: choosing of names on another thread.
I remember now. Thanks for the repeat.
gjazz - that's powerful!
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8)gjazz,
Ya know, You folks are wonderful for re-affirmations. I keep reading the echos of wisdoms, that I attribute to my folks brought back to me. You remind me of all the things in life that are part of who we are and why we chose our individual course of actions that we sometimes forget about because we haven't consciousely thought about putting them into words as of late.
Thanks for pulling stuff out of the mists and into words that give me the comfort of my parents "old school/old fashioned" feelings and beliefs of looking at things, how things ought to be.
I miss them so much, and it's feeling really good to have their essence/gist :wink: brought back to me.
Nogadge
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Glad it's helping. It seems to me that as long as you follow your conscience, you're in a position of power, esp. over someone who doesn't have one. In time he'll have to explain his actions to his sons. You will not. Time: heals wounds, wounds heels. As the proverb goes! Hang in there.
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gjazz,
I'm not agreeing with applying or gaining "power". I'm not a player, people have never been toy/pawns. I suppose from the prospective of what I now know my ex to be a player, you do have a point about power giving one the upper hand, and the perception by those who cater to it, and bow to it when they look at those they view/percieve as being the one in charge/controll. I am neither by choice, just the one who's had to deal with most everything that needed to be addressed and taken care of. You just do what has to be done when it left up to you and no one elsse will do it.
It's never been my desire to be in charge/controll/dictate, ect. or anything along these lines. You can not force/make anyone to do anything, what they do, they do of their own free will.
I would like to think you're right about the turn of future events and hopefully, my ex will find a way to do so when the boys look to him for this.
Nogadge
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Not having power over someone else, having power in yourself, a type of power an N cannot ever have, because they operate largely without conscience. I'd never suggest spending one iota of time engaging in power games with an N.
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I've always believed there's good in eveeyone, even the mean spirited. You just have to look a little deeper and try a little harder, but you'll find a good side in anyone. i never looked at the doing/detting things done and the dynamics that it took that way all these years. It started long ago, doing for the one I loved because I could and it made things easier/better for him, and I was happy to do what I could for the one I cared for. giving/lending help, doing for someone else because I wanted to and I enjoy giving a hand brought me to being someone, somewhere I couldn't understand how I could have allowed myself to get to.
It all came to a head last Nov. '07, when I filed my final divorce papers. That's about the time a reference someone made to me about the various disorders, and it was such a relief when I began reading on them and realised they actually applied and I could relate to things I was reading for the first time. Since then, I've come to realise I am not going to understand or be able to figure how and what happen with my ex, what I did or did not do, how to change or make it better...no amount of trying could repair/fix or make anything work out.
In response to one of the attacks from my exs' references to us, re: our dysfuntional relationship, I broke it in to two definition/componets: him= violent abusive narcisist
: me = developementalized codependency behaviorlisms .....NO, I did not send this to him. That would have really added fuel to the fire. I just sat back and really looked at what I had written and thought how ironically appropriate it seemed looking at the past. I can humph abd chuckle at my snide little retorte that no longer applies to me. Like I said, I have been so blessed, I somehow find my way to what I need most to help me get thru, some call it self preservation. I guess I have to accept and apply this to my ex, and perhaps was part of what drove him to some degree.
Nogadge
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:roll: I have the best boys in the world!!!!!! Yeah, for my eldest. He stayed out of it, despite dad's attempts over the weekend to pull him in. Even in court today, dad tried and the judge allowed me to counter without problems. It's the first time I've had to face him like this alone, with out my support person in court. It took me over 2 hours for my stomach to even start settling down, an to stop looking over my shoulders. It's in the judges' hands now. Nogadge.