Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on May 12, 2008, 04:44:22 AM
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Well, here's a tale. Kind of eyeopening for me. I'd like to share it and welcome comments/advice.
This thing that's happening between me and my gardening friend is lovely, tender and delightful. It's also illuminating some unfinished work in me. So some backstory:
He's a bit of an outsider, which I can relate to. He's also, beneath a little bit of macho, a sensitive and caring sort. He also has had some catastrophic relationships in which he was very hurt. I was drawn to him since we met, and have not been disappointed. Being close to him is a gift. He's sweet to me, cuddly, and our time together is joyful.
It's the in-between time that is challenging me to learn some more on an old theme. I take as a given that I can't get this close to someone without some vulnerability. Some feelings being stirred, and some old bruises aching a little. And that's okay. I don't expect not to feel old nerves twinging, with my own history of being very hurt. I am hoping that we are going to be doing some important healing together, for however long it lasts.
My issue is this. When we first talked about an intimate relationship, I intentionally set things up in such a way that I would be more or less a secret. I offered discretion, no possessiveness at all (other than our commitment to monogamy), and defined it as friendship. When he said he didn't really want "a girlfriend" (though that could change), and didn't picture himself marrying, I said that was okay with me.
Looking back, I realize that my efforts to be undemanding and not overwhelm him also signal a message from me to myself. I didn't realize it when I was talking to him, but I think proposed these conditions because my past experience with witholding, ambivalent men who didn't want to commit to a serious relationship told me that I would be lucky for any attention at all. Hmm. I hadn't realized why I was offering conditions to him the way I did. It has dawned on me slowly. The message from me to myself is, this is all I should hope for. Maybe...this is all I deserve. When my true yearning for the long term is to be the mate of someone who loves me so fully that they DO want me first as a girlfriend, and eventually as a wife.
A sweet but troubled younger man who envisions himself as alone in the long term? My pattern: Come to Mama. So that's contrary to my own best interests.
And how do I reconcile that with the great happiness that I feel in our "arrangement"? This, too, is healing for me. To be held, and wanted, and cuddled and close for hour upon hour. This does fulfill a large part of my dream.
I don't feel angry at him for accepting my offer. He's been just as lonely as I and needs the closeness as much as I do. And neither of us is ready for a full-tilt total commitment right away. I got the cart before the horse because my need was strong enough that I was willing to just ask the universe to let me be held. And he's a person I intuitively trust.
Today at church I intentionally didn't approach him, let him socialize afterward on his own. I also have many friends to greet and chats to share. By the end of the social hour I simply started to leave. We'd exchanged a smile but hadn't talked. He came right over, kissed me on the cheek. He is a dear lovely guy. But this is an odd situation and I realize I should not let it go on just like this for too long. It's tiggering to me, but I created the conditions. Even though my persistent dream is to have someone in my life who is proud and glad to be by my side, not only in private, but in the world.
I have basically set things up so he'll visit me and we'll have an intimate evening probabaly once a week, and garden together. But in public, it's different. And I know from past relationships that this not being acknowledged as a committed partner can get quite painful. At the same time, the reality of being with him is very happy. We talk for hours, and in this time the closeness is very real.
For now, I'm going to leave him in complete freedom to explore his own limits and feelings for me. But internally, I've set a kind of a timeline. I think I can continue on this basis for about three months, and then it will be time for a tuneup chat. If it's still the same sort of pattern, I may need to tell him what I've realized. I have feelings for him (which I've of course blurted anyway), but I really am not going to sacrifice myself. I've set up a situation that suggests I should be a "Saturday night secret", unacknowledged, and without the security and pleasure of being a partner.
So why would I continue this at all? My intuition tells me that giving him that level of freedom at least for now is critical. He too is vulnerable. He's afraid just as I am. And he has a sweet heart. He's honest, and sensitive, and I truly care for him. He's no N monster man. My hope is that in a while, he might come to feel something more solid and serious for me. If he doesn't, then I will need to withdraw for my own sake.
I know I have done things backward. But he's bringing me joy and I'm giving him some, too. For what it is, for now, I am grateful.
Hope you can stand with me as I go forward with this. Here's my intention. To be grateful to the universe for the gift of him in my life, and to trust that releasing the outcome will mean that whatever the eventual outcome is, is right.
thanks for listening,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
It took so much courage to write that post.
You became 3D to me ,in a way I have never seen before.
I am on such a "kick" with the book Reclaiming Your Life by Jean Jensen. Trust me on it ,like you did the Superfood(lol).
We, all, play out our FOO patterns, down to the last detail.
You told about some patterns ,in your post. You don't feel you "deserve". That is a FOO patten.
You will be amazed how much of our current behavior is a setting up, unconsciously, of family patterns.
Now that I know this I will be able to heal so I am free and comfortable with myself.
What *I* hear with your original set-up of the relationship as a "secret" is that you are going against 'human nature". In books and movies, things can work like that,but where human hearts are concerned, there are certain primal emotions that come in to play.
When you care for s/one, you do not 'want" them or you to be a 'secret".Also, you do not want them with other people.It is a 'heart reality(IMO).
We cannot go against our hearts, as humans, just as much as we cannot go against our biolgy ,without repurcussions.
I think you are learning about yourself in a deeper way, and that is what relationships do, as nothing else can.
I am with you,in this, if you care for me to. Love Ami
((((((((((Hops)))))))
PS I thought this would be another,'"I planted begonias "thread and almost didn't read it(lol)
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You acknowledgement to yourself about what is playing out is so important. I think that self-knowledge and understanding is one of the most important things we can hope for. As long as that is operating for you, you will be guided by your inner self and you will know how to handle each step. I am glad that you are receiving much pleasure and hope that your relationship will continue to be giing and comforting. I believe that because you have so much insight into what is going on "behind the scenes" for yourself that you will find this a very healing and growing experience. I suspect that you are moving into the place where you now "deserve" in the inner being of your core. That "deserving" perhaps will effect your work and your situation with your mother and brother.
Already you have received that immense gift from this relationship - you have moved into "deserving." And for that I give thanks.
Thanks so much for sharing such a vulnerable part of your life.
Your friend - Gaining Strength
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Well, when this is over, you already know it will be over, you already planned that way, you will need to find another gardener. I believe that you are behaving like a teenager.
Unless you have a deep change inside you, he will never commite to you. Any way, I thing you are re playing a self prophesy, and you will do it once and again, over and over.
I have a similar situation. But since I do not want the physical before commitement, it becomes a vicious circle, and he says he has a lover because he needs to satisfy his needs, and after all, we are only friends. Hmmm. Well, we will be friends forever, because I do not go backwards, first shows of responsibility, and then physical, not backwards. It does not work the other way.
My two cents.
But I have been alone for seventeen years. One only marriage and zero boyfriends, so, I might be different, and I did not have a mother to go to. So, we are just different. No saying rigt or wrong, just different.
God bless you.
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Thank you, Ami. I appreciate that and it feels good to have you say you know me more.
I think one difference is that he has a heart that my previous men have not. He is responsible and empathic.
What intrigues me is that rather than choose a witholding man, I was acting out the witholding parent/brother inside myself. What pleases me is that I spotted it so quickly.
Thank you GS. So much, for your faith in me. I don't know where this experience will go but to know a friend trusts I am accessing some inner guidance is very reassuring. I don't have that toxic panicky clutchy feeling. I am watching some currents of feeling go through me. So far, no impulses I can't control. So far, a sense that like with the seeds and seedlings I have planted, I can watch this grow for a while. Trust that it's not all me who creates or shapes or ends this relationship. There are other forces at work and I feel like trusting the universe. I even feel like trusting a man again, and it's been a very long time.
Thank you, Lupita. I love your honesty. I know my choice isn't like one you would make. It was a powerful need, so powerful that as we sat on the porch, I just took a deep breath and told him what I had been thinking, asked what I wanted to ask, and released the outcome. He was quiet and said, "It took a lot of courage for you to put that out there." And he also said at one point, "Are we going to regret this?" and I said, "How could I regret this?" All very teenagery, and from such true places inside us.
love
Hops
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Hops,
I am thinking back Hoppy and I dated a guy pretty much in the same fashion. It did work out for me though. I did the same, as you, and was not sure, as he was, how far we both wanted this to go.
We had a good time and did our own thing also. In the end we wound up not being in a relationship but the best of friends.
So either way it works for you, a love, or a friend, it is still love. I loved him as my friend.
I wish the same for you (either way).
Enjoy yourself Hops.
Love
Deb
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Hops, my sweetie, you sound just like a schoolgirl!!!! Hee hee.
Really, not to take any of this lightly, I don't think your boundary ideas that you put forth were in any way a statement about you or him. It is always hard to enter into a relationship (whatever the type may be) and you stated what you felt at the time. That doesn't mean that your feeling, or his, cannot change.
I know when I met my hubby, I was sick of men. I played no games, told him how I felt, and... it all changed aftger we got to know each other. There was another guy I had a friendship plus relationship with, and when it didn't work for me anymore... well... that was it. There are different stages in life, and different stages in relationships... and all of it changes.
So... Hops... relax and enjoy. It sounds like you have a nice, comfortable relationship now. If you and he want more at some point, it can change to something more.
I think sometimes we have to set limits in the beginning so we don't scare the other party - or ourselves.
Much love,
Beth
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Hops.... it's good that you've taken an honest look at the the conditions you put in place for this relationship.
I think they do signal that you don't feel worthy for more.
You're exploring that... this is a growing experience for you.
The good thing is.... you're a woman with choices.
Relationships are all about negotiating.
Renegotiating relationships is an ongoing process, for all relationships.
It never ends.
Everyone has the right to acknowledge their needs and get them met, even though it feels alien to you.
What you have now is working.
Perhaps you asked for exactly the right thing..... for the wrong reasons?
Enjoy what you have...... you aren't bound to this bargain for all eternity.
(((Hops)))
Tell me about your yard and garden, when you get a chance: )
Lighter
ps.... Remember... you're not married.
Please don't say " no " to coffee, or an invitation for dinner.....
if it seems attractive to you.
Your bargain didn't include NOT keeping your options open, which they certainly are, IMO.
Have fun.....
b o u n d a r i e s
have fun.
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Hops, I've had to re-read your description before responding...
I think you're being wise... cautious, but wise. This time of "getting to know you" has already brought you more than just what you asked for. It's shown you something new about you... without putting yourself, or this chap at risk. Very wise...
there are many possible outcomes to something like this. You may have discovered a life-long friend regardless of whether the two of proceed together or not. And there is soooooo much to be said for the giddy school-girl feelings! :D
It may be, that this is your "time"... for hopes & dreams to become real. But it sounds to me, that even if this doesn't come to pass, you'll be able to continue to count on this man in mysterious ways... all because you were able to take the chance in such a way that boundaries still exist - safe boundaries. For both of you...
my fingers & toes are crossed for you!
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Hops-we often sell ourselves short do we not? You deserve the whole thing but you set yourself up. As long as you understand that you may be disappointed in the long run you can go this. I did this with my H-I only saw what I wanted to see and dismissed see flags ALL over the place. Please do not ignore see flags-take it slow and enjoy yourself.
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one more advise:
detach from the outcome.
you are not your achievements, you are not your relatioships. At the end of the day you are left alone with what you think of your self, your self esteem is what you think of your self. The only thing you can use to access a person is his her inner peace.
One important way of loving our selves is detaching from the outcome and enjoying the present.
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Very good advice, Lupita.
Detach.
Yes.
Light
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You Rock, Lupita! Ami
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Thanks, Deb, Beth, Lighter, Amber, OC, and *Lupita*.
Deb and Beth, it's comforting to be reminded that good things can start in all sorts of ways and one never knows. Deb, you have the memory of a good friendship and don't sound traumatized that it ended, evolved away, or whatever...Beth, you wound up with a hubby you love and who loves you. Awesome.
Lighter (renegotiating's always allowed--Yes!), I specified that my options are still open, as are his. So either of us can socialize or even "date" (whatever that means) -- but we are monogamous with each other. For me, that's the crosseyed part.
Amber (yes, you caught it--he is a GOOD person--and that's a huge change of tune for me) and OC (flag radar's on), you're right. I've set some boundaries, all right. Odd ones, but there they are.
Lupita, thank you. That is absolutely the bottom line. I do need to stay in the present. There really is no need to torture myself about outcome, it's a bad old habit. This is a WONDERFUL thing in my present. I don't feel any shame about our odd arrangement. I think since we've both been social rebels, in a sense we're safer doing things backwards. If we come to the more conventional commitments later, it will be because this feels safer now. Odd, very odd.
xo all,
Hops
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::raising amazonian cup::
TO A WONDERFUL SUMMER IN THE GARDEN,
WITH HER FRIEND.
Hops.....
embrace,
laugh,
enjoy.
You deserve every wonderful moment.
Lighter
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Dear Hops,
There is no better way to learn about ourselves than in a close relationship. We see ourselves in a highlighted way, for better or worse(lol). Hugs, Ami
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Dear Hops,
How very brave you are for sharing all of that. Also, how self aware you are! That takes much patience and wisdom to see it all and communicate it so well. I admire you so!
A couple of things popped out when I read and re-read and re-read your post:
So either of us can socialize or even "date" (whatever that means) -- but we are monogamous with each other.
I know I can be pretty dense and this one really has me confused. How does one be monogamous while dating other people? Doesn't monogamous mean.......not dating other people? Wait! I'll look that up:
1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
2. a. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
b. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.
3. Zoology The condition of having only one mate during a breeding season or during the breeding life of a pair.
But I like this one:
monogamous - (used of relationships and of individuals) having one mate;
from: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monogamous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monogamous)
Ok....I guess I kinda get it. You can date other people but you're real true mates are eachother?
No getting involved sexually/emotionally with other people? Mated but only it's a secret to everyone but eachother? Wait a minute:
I offered discretion, no possessiveness at all (other than our commitment to monogamy), and defined it as friendship. When he said he didn't really want "a girlfriend" (though that could change), and didn't picture himself marrying, I said that was okay with me.
:?
If you are monogamous mates (which I'm assuming also includes in a sexual manner).......doesn't that make you his womanfriend and he your manfriend? Is there a kind of contradiction happening or am I just weird?
Anyway......no need to explain to me because as long as you understand it and get the real boundaries and are ok with it for now.......I will be happy, as usual, to remain in my confused, dense state. :lol:
Are you ok with it or do you feel a little itchy about it.......well........if it makes you wanna scratch a little.........good! 'Cause that makes you aware and me sane! :shock: (get right outta town!! :shock: :shock:).
Ok......one more...
The message from me to myself is, this is all I should hope for. Maybe...this is all I deserve. When my true yearning for the long term is to be the mate of someone who loves me so fully that they DO want me first as a girlfriend, and eventually as a wife.
Oh Hops! You so deserve what you want! You are so worthy! You are so sweet and kind and loving and loyal........
You deserve someone who worships the ground you walk on!
Someone who treats you like a queen!
Someone who is not only willing to commit but gleeful to be blessed by having met you and joyously proud to be seen with you.........known to be your mate!! Openly! In front of the whole world!
Please guard your heart carefully. Stick to your time boundary (the one you set for yourself) and reassess in 3 months. Please keep your hope strong and do not give up your dreams!
I understand you are saying this guy is sensitive and caring and so you are generously giving him the space you think he needs and wants to help him become comfortable and possibly less afraid (?) of taking things to the next level (am I anywhere close there?).
But Hops.......so are you sensitive and caring and you deserve the same generosity.....what you need and want......to feel comfortable etc. Please take care of you my friend.
The biggest thing about relationships, imo, is that they are a 2-way street. You should not have to be the one constantly sacrificing for the other person's happiness/comfort etc. If the gander gives equally back to the goose, then all will be well in the pond. (Did I just coin a cool phrase? 8) Naw! I doubt it.)
(((((((Hops))))))
Sela
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Thanks, Lighter...hoist a cuppa champagne by the birdbath for me... (garden wish: POND mit frog).
Ami, you're right--I'll be clearer in the mirror, one way or another. It's all learning.
Sela, sweetheart, thank you. You're right. I will. It truly is important to me that reciprocity be the foundation of a committed relationship. I think for now, in our odd beginning, it is good to let him feel free to explore me privately ( :oops:) for a time before he decides whether he is interested in publically embracing and claiming a GF/mate/significant otherwhatever.
Who happens to be, and LOOK (totally white hair) her 12 years his senior. So he'd really need to want me fully. And if he figures out he doesn't after a while, then I'm free to say, "friends with benefits" has to return to friends, now.
Women do public acceptance-without-turning-an-eyelash gracefully all the time for their older (sometimes much older) male companions. But for all that he's 46, he's a young 46. Intuition told me, don't crowd this one. Give, and see if he'd like to give back. So far, he does. When he gets a whiff of my discomfort, I soon find a sweet message. And he's a complete dear when we're together.
I don't think he'd realistically expect this to go on indefinitely. And I'm setting an appoximately 3-month boundary for myself. He seems to me creative enough and individualistic enough, that he might get there. But if he can't, then I'll find out and cope with that change then. There's always risk of hurt. In this case it could be that he can't commit. But it won't be hurt because he's mean. I WAS DRAWN TO A SWEET MAN, ALLELU!
Monogamy means no other sexual partner. And we continue to appear "single" (but not on the prowl). He has a bunch of friends, I do too. I've shared about him with just my closest friend at church and her husband. Who knows, it could all change.
In addition to dragging him upstairs by the hair (his version) so I can be ravished (my version), we talk a lot. He's had a painful life, yet he's still got a quality of gentleness and openness that melts my heart.
Blush.
Hops
PS--I don't think either of us is dating, per se. But we each have plenty of opposite sex friends. He goes to plays with a woman from church and her daughter, I give big squooshy hugs to several men from church and am close to several. But neither of us is acting romantic or involved romantically with anyone. Including each other, officially. Romantic love is freighted with some fear and I think maybe this purple arrangement is allowing us to find out how much trust and intimacy we can build. I will keep the brakes on expectations, though. It helps me to be in observer mode, of both of us, and have a little faith in myself that I can handle what comes. I feel optimistic for goodness, and don't know the form.
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sounds like a groovy, great time in the garden, Hops.... come what may...
and you're not the only one with white hair, sweetie... I hear it's become quite the in-thing, believe it or not! (truth: I've seen kids on campus, who are dying their hair this color... go figure!)
Maybe Annie Lennox started something...
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Hmmmm... I thought about buying a couple turtles for the neighbor's koi pond today but.....
FROGS!
Just love the little toadies; )
Lighter
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(((((((((((Hops))))))))))) My loving, honest opinion is that you deserve a man who is ready, willing, and able to commit fully in every way without receiving any free milk or butter in advance of said commitment.
With love and more hugs, wishing you only the very best,
Carolyn
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I know, sweet Carolyn.
Thank you for wanting that for me.
I love you.
This cow has just decided that life's too short to keep the butter in the churn.
I'm kicking it all over the meadow, flowers draped on my horns, hollering MOOOOO!
This here is MY milk and I'll give it to whoever I want to! For freeeeeee!
It ain't pasteurized, either!
MOOOOOOOO!
(I've always been a bad girl and have been tossed out of several proper pastures.)
love,
Hops
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The cow and milk metaphors cracks me up(lol). Ami
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Yeah, I kind of think that fresh, young pre-calf milk is best served fresh and to only the person that buys the cow.
BUT I think finer, older milk doesn't need to be served to calves or saved for special butter or anything. Were I a mature, single Heiffer, I'd be all over givin' up the milk...
Hate to say it - I am a traditionalist if you are planning your life early on, but I think that there are points where it just doesn't make sense.
Have an udderly enjoyable time, dear Hops.
Love, Beth
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Everything creamy and all churning aside Hops,
Women do public acceptance-without-turning-an-eyelash gracefully all the time for their older (sometimes much older) male companions.
Not fair when it comes to a younger man, is it?
I WAS DRAWN TO A SWEET MAN, ALLELU
For this, I am so very happy for you Hops! I really am!
I hope things work out exactly the way you want them to because I really do agree that you deserve your dreams.
Thanks for the explanations. I get it now. Just take care of you in this relationship because your heart is precious.
Sela
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Ack.
Not the "give the milk away for free" metaphor :x
Women aren't apples on a tree......
waiting to be picked and purchased...... packaged and made 'respectable' by men willing to pony up. :(
We're divine creatures,
worthy of companionship....
worthy of making our own choices.
Besides.... I can imagine marriage wouldn't cross some divorced women's minds, for any reason.
It's isn't wrong......
it's a personal choice.
LOVED your post, (((Hops)))
:D
Lighter
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Hops,
I was a bit flippant in my answer, but truly, I think that if you are happy and feel safe, you should enjoy any relationship that suits you. I really do think it's best to have a goal for a relationship if you are younger and planning on having a family. To me, it is important to provide stability in the home. However, you have 'been there, done that' and your life can now be about you.
So, simply, enjoy yourself :)
Lots of love,
Beth
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I don't feel guilt-tripped by anyone, in fact, remarkably tolerated and loved, despite our differing values and views on things.
Thanks, folks. I am happy and so glad you're here to listen...
If I come to rue the day, well you know where I'll be complaining.
Right now it's just sweetness and joy. And the mesclun's up!
love,
Hops
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This was posted on Monday and I'm just now reading it on Friday Night?
After a sorta blah day, this was great. I smiled from beginning to end and chuckled here and there.
Hops, you deserve to enjoy life. It sounds like you have really thought this through.
And you are not the only one I got to know a little better reading it. :)
Wishing you happiness!
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Thank you, Kitten.
What a kindness, to share your pleasure in my adventure.
I appreciate that! :)
And wouldn't you know, everybody, just last night he called to ask me if I'd like to go downtown with him and his housemate Jim, to wander the plaza and get a meal. Well Friday nights downtown here are the loveliest and most public of all public events in this community. So I guess it's an option to not project onto him all the witholding characteristics of PREVIOUS men who liked to keep our connection under a bushel.
Perhaps he's actually something new? :P
Or maybe I am. :shock: :D :D :D
Mangling my metaphors,
Hops
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I can't help but feel excited for you :D
Enjoy your evening!
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Hops,
That sounds like such a lovely evening. Have a wonderful time.
He is so lucky to be sharing it with you! love seasons
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Thanks Kit, thanks Seasons.
Very dear of you.
Actually I didn't go last night...too last-minute and I was too tired. But knowing that he wanted me to do that was a happy thought, and showed me I'm fictionalizing too much.
I'm seeing him tonight though. :D
Happy weekend, everyone.
I've got to do a bunch of legal stuff for the hearing Tuesday, about my brother. Uggh.
So won't be around much.
love,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I think it meant a lot that he asked you to go out with him and his friend.
I hope you have a fun weekend. Hugs Ami
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::sending you strength for Tues::
Let us know how it goes, Hops.
Light
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I will, I will.
I'll report about my brother-stuff on that other thread, and save this one for the garden and budding (pun intended) relationship.
So Saturday, P appears to finish our new garden bed and says I want to take you out to dinner. Which he did, and to a lovely place. Seems to me I'm not being hid under a bushel basket! (Mangled reference...)
We had a good evening together. We're becoming more at ease. I'm still glad it's happening.
And the square foot garden beds are wonderful! One's an L-shape at the junction of two sidewalks, and then another 8-foot straight bed further down the walk. Added cucumbers and took two black metal trellises from the back yard by the terrace and attached them to the north end of the boxes. Cucumbers and beans will climb those. They look neat because they have round blue glass inserts at the tops of the arches.
Just makes me happy every time I walk past them to see those little green plants popping through the rich black mix. They amaze me. And they'll mean fresh organic veggies all summer and into fall, yum.
love,
Hops
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Hops
Surrounded by beauty.
Glad your sharing in the light,
beautiful moonlight maybe...... 8)
seasons oxox
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Oh Hops, lol.....
what a lovely thought.
I'm really enjoying the visuals of all the black soil, growing plants and sunny glass inserts.
Laughter and home grown food, shared with friends.
::picturing Hops... twirling happily in her garden::
Lighter
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mesclun.... mesclun.....
searching my memory for the Grimm's Fairy Tale that includes mache..... an older couple who desperately wanted a child, I think... and mache figured into it, significantly.
Hops - your garden and everything that's growing there will support you, comfort you, and make you stronger on Tuesday. You may even surprise yourself!
But I will keep fingers & toes crossed, that this is the absolute end of this kind of trouble for you.
EDIT: Rapunzel!! That's it!
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I love you, too, dear Hops :)
Forever and a day.
Carolyn