Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: flower on August 18, 2004, 04:12:36 PM
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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
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Hi Flower,
How awful! I think your post is the very definition of trauma. As my T explained to me, our brains are now hard-wired by the trauma. As we work through it and recognize how we are feeling and then the why, we will still have a fight-or-flight reaction, but it lessens or we process it a bit quicker. So perhaps the solution is to feel the fear, acknowledge it, and then reassure ourselves that we are OK today.
I guess we sort of become more familiar with the fear (like a friend 8) ) which has served us in the past, but doesn't keep us from doing from what we need to do or want to do now.
Don't give yourself too hard a time--what if it was your dad? :shock: Then your response was appropriate. The fact that it was your daughter, not someone you fear, doesn't mean you didn't initially respond appropriately, given your experience. Hope this makes sense! Peace, Seeker
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Hi Flower and Guest,
Feeling the fear and acknowledging it are important for recovery and healing. I agree. Several years ago, after I had been in therapy for a year, I took an occassion to look my Nmother straight in the eye when she was on one of her tirades. I recall never looking at her in the eye before. I didn't see any warmth. What I saw was the emptiness of her false self. She didn't seem to like being looked at in the eye and this made her angrier. I can still remember that look; that icy, icy look. But it doesn't scare the adult me.
It still scares the child me and this is something I am working on. I protect her whenever I am around my mother and the rest of my family because if they see one inkling of her insecurity and fear, they truly love it. They want me (or is it her or can they even tell the difference?) to break down and be crazy. Then, I'll be at their mercy, they can scapegoat me to be the sick one in the family and they can lock me up, shake their heads and be all self-righteous about it. *That* is what I fear - that intention that I feel they still have.
Flower, if I may ask, in what way did the drive around the old town change your attitude? It sounds as if it changed it for the better. :D :D
I did something similar about a year ago. Afterwards, I felt that I had *re-written* a new ending to the memories by going to the old homes, schools, etc of my childhood. It was very empowering. It helped me to feel less fragmented and more whole. That experience gave me strength and helped a little further to distill the fear (at least the fear that was held within the memories.)
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Hi Flower! & Dawning!
Sounds like you had a great breakthrough with your daughter--that's so great! :D
I went through the exact same thing--the fear of encountering the N I cut off. Broke up with my NSIL (and also my enabling bro) and had the same aversion to bumping into her. We live in the same town. I went through about a year of anxiety of "what do people think" stuff and had to realize that I couldn't allow it to matter because of what she had done to me and my family, that I would be really stupid and irresponsible if I let her blackmail me into flying back into her web.
Like you, I try to have phrases available in case I do run into her. That helps. That and knowing that being in public, the N will always behave with other eyes around. Just recently (I posted elsewhere) I encountered her and we chatted for a minute and of course she invited me over. I simply declined. (This is one of her tricks: to invite invite invite so you reject reject reject and then, oh poor little N!)
But now I don't care if I look mean to her. If people rally around her I think to myself "thanks! thanks for running interference! Go ahead and find out what Sybil is really like!" I am confident that her weirdness leaks out even sooner with age and with the stress of having two children she wants to show off without taking responsibility for them. That's a tough act to pull off.
When I run into my brother (which hasn't happened in years--he's rather chicken and non-confrontational and angry) he will scowl & glare at me. I think it's because he knows I know the TRUTH and won't play his game of Pretend anymore. I simply say hello very calmly and he relaxes like, oh, she's not mad at me. For me, there is no point in being mad or sad or happy or anything because I now know no real communication is possible with him about the things that have come between us. I tried a few times and he tapdances really well, I discovered. I do have to resist the temptation to roll my eyes.
Dawning, I think of fairy tales now when I realize I am growing less afraid of "giants" and "witches" and can deal with them sometimes--like staring them in the eyes! I love that. Kinda like holding a cross up to a vampire, huh? I still need to work on that kind of courage with my father (my fear factor) but I'm getting there with my own generation.
Keep on keepin' on! Hugs, Seeker
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Hi everyone.
I know this fear, Flower. It is one thing, I call it- the residue, that is still very suddenly evoked in me by triggers.
It isn't just emotional or psychological but a real, physical reaction. Even though both of my parents are dead, this can happen, if the phone rings in the middle of the night (a stalking method used on me and very effective at disrupting my sleep and upsetting me when I was under severe stress to begin with), or if I see a person who looks very much like one of my abusers (in public someplace), or if I am in a situation that closely resembles one from the past, one that I may have forgotton, or just put behind me, I have had this sudden, gripping, freezing, terroristic fear take ahold of me.
I'm better at dealing with it now that I have learned to say to myself:
"Don't panic".
Those two words seem able to reach my conscious mind and help me get a grip, so to speak. Once I realize that the fear was just a bit of residue, I'm fine. It is getting less and less over the years and it will continue to be less, as time goes by.
Best of luck to you. Remember, you don't have to answer the door.
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Hi Flower and all:
Boy, can I relate to much in this thread. I like the "web" description too and know many of the sticky parts of it (since I've been caught so many times).
Well, to be honest, that paralyzing fear thing is more of an agrivation than anything, in my case. It doesn't happen very often at all now but it still is annoying when it does happen. I think: "After all of this time, you'd think this would quit", when this happens and: "Eventually, it will stop".
Fear is an emotion n people seem to get such satisfaction out of instilling in others (or a buzz from doing so, I don't know). My deduction is that it is where the "paranoia" comes from. Somehow, they were soaked in fear (or are soaked in fear) and they just push it onto others, almost because they seem to need to have company in their own fear. Putting fear in others gives such power, makes us similar to them, if we accept it, or dive into it (the great pool of fear!).
Those who do this fear-injecting, may not seem as if they are full of fear themselves, but I haven't met one yet that isn't. The thing they are most afraid of, is the truth. The truth about their own behaviour, the truth about what they are imposing on others, the truth about their "sickness"---These things are terrifying for them to face up to. People who do this have the lowest of self-esteem and just strike out relentlessly, as if to say:
"I can't stand myself, I'm afraid of what I am, therefore, I'm giving you some of what I don't want -here you take it."
Here, again, compassion can actually help us to see the real picture. Rejecting the fear that they are trying to force is the best protection from that paranoia that evolves into bigger and better things. This will occur after enough fear is given to us over a long enough time.
Recognizing that the whole fear thing revolves around them getting power and pushing part of themselves, part they really don't like, away, is the key to helping us decide not to accept that from them.
As children, we had no way of knowing all of this and even as adults, that fear can be infused incidiously, sometimes without our awareness.
The real paralyzing fear from trauma, well that's our memory trying to tell us that our perpetrators were effective in their objective. The thoughts we have after such recall can help us reduce the incidence of recall.
Just some of my thoughts on it.
(((((((((((Flower))))))))))))
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never told this before -- worried it might come true or worried that I might imagine it is coming true -- anyhow, I have a fear that I will experience a "flash back" of some horror that I went through that I have buried deep in my psyche. It may sound silly, but I do have a real fear that I will suddenly remember something too horrible to describe. I have nothing to base it on other than I now realize my NQueenmother is fully capable of anything and she certainly was when she was a young woman with a helpless baby. N's are sociopaths, nothing can change them, they can go into a lull for a while and then have a blowout. If they are out to destroy you, they will make it their life's work. They do not have to be a monster physically, but they are black as night inside and I put nothing past them, nothing.
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Discounted,
You are so right that they are black, as black inside. And that feeling that something can come up out of nowhere I believe is a founded belief.
After starting therapy and allowing myself to dwell on the past - something I had never done - I started remembering things that were oh so painful. But beyond that, when my Nparents were in one of their attack modes 4 years ago, I lived in constant fear that I would recieve an official letter or cops would be at my door everytime the doorbell rang. My Nparents had threatened to report that H and I were abusing our kids 'just to take them away from us because we didin't deserve to have them since we moved 2000 miles away from the grandparents'. H kept telling me I was worrying for mothing but he traveled a lot then and I was afraid they would pull something when they knew he was gone and I was there all alone. It was all lies and an attempt to force us to move back east near them. It did not work and now there is no communication except on birthdays or holidays when they send a stupid card or make an attempt to call. But those days of waking up fearful and going to bed fearful were terrible. Now that I know what my parents really are about, I know that they could have done any of that if they had wanted. They took my sister's child and forced an adoption out of lies.
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However, Discounted, before diving deeply into the pool of fear...think.
What are the chances of these things happening?
What is the probability, based on what they've managed and you've managed to do so far?
How likely is it that they will pull this off or even try to??
Remember the power of the fear that can grow by simple multiplication.
Remember to use the courage you do have and have had- so far- and remember to look at what's been accomplished so far.
You've moved 2000 miles away and decreased the contact to the bare minimum right?
And nobody's died yet.
Who are you going to let be in charge of your thoughts?
Them and their pool of you-know-what, or the realitiy that you have improved the situation since you've made these moves and nothing seriously bad has happened because of it?
(((((((((((D-Girl-after-my-own-heart)))))))))))))
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Also, sorry, just thought of this.
I don't know about your country, but in my country, you have legal rights.
If you are truly concerned, get yourself a lawyer, ahead of time and explain the situation and your concerns.
Then, get yourself a big, scary dog and train her to protect your property and your family.
In my country, you do not have to let these people into your home.
You are entitled to have a lawyer present during quesitoning of any child or yourself and...
You do not have to speak to these people, nor do your children, otherwise.
Find out the facts of the laws in Alaska, but I am fairly sure this is correct info. (some that I wish I had known, believe me).
Don't be afraid D. Be informed and prepared!!
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Hi again:
I hope I have this right (sure wish I knew how to add a proper link here).
If you post a message on the following board, the people there will help you get the information you need. Best not to start reading stories and getting all worked up about what "could" happen as you are doing just fine so far. I'm putting this here so that you can get the info you need.
(((((((((Discounted))))))))
http://groups.msn.com/HelpforParentsandChildren/legalrights1.msnw
Hope it works.
Try not to worry too much. Wasted energy. Work out a plan and then, forget about it, and get on with your life (and the dog works real good-let me tell ya).
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Wellllllllllllllll............doggie!! Look at that!
I'lll..............be.
Now I've learned something useful today!!
Best of luck to you girl.
I have a rule of thumb I follow which was told to me years ago by a very wise person:
I do not make decisions based on fear.
Period.
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Somebody, I think your last few posts were in reply to the Guest who posted after me. Hopefully, he/she will come back and read them. I live in Texas, Alaska is too cold 8)
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My mistake, what else is new?
But they have such cute white polar bears in Alaska!
Yep, I knew a girl once who moved up here from Texas, and I asked her if she liked it here, (Southern, Ontario), and she "Yessiree" and I asked her, well then, what do you like best about it?
And her answer:
"Aaa luvv kaaazers 'n redd rose tea that ya'll haaav up heeer!!"
Apparently, there weren't any good bakeries in Texax, at that time, and the tea sucked!
Hope the situation has improved.
Have a great evening and yes,
Guest...hope this stuff helps a bit!!
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So, D, so as not to discount what you said, you have a fear that you will experience a "flash back" of some horror that you went through, that you have buried deep in your psyche. It may sound silly, but you do have a real fear that you will suddenly remember something too horrible to describe.
No, it's not a bit silly.
But it is a bit of a waste of time.
(Hey, I copied and pasted that and changed the "I"'s to "you"s...cool).
Ok, so. You have a fear, right? Is it a real thing that happened or something factual? So far, just a worry right?
Why don't you try worrying about winning millions of dollars and what the heck you're going to do with all of that money when you get your paws on it??
I'm not being silly, worry about some good stuff. Why not??
Why waste good energy worrying about stuff that "may be buried" someplace?
Replace it with stuff that feels a whole lot better.
Who cares what's in there? There's probably stuff in there that was just as good-- as this bad idea is bad, right? Look for that stuff and quit focussing on all the crap.
Why do I say such a thing? It works.
There's no need to drill deep down into our unconscious mind and retrieve each and every bit of rotten information that may be buried there.
Just as there is no need to go to the grave yard and dig up bones.
What the heck for?
If you get a horrible flash back some day, tell yourself that it's water under the bridge and you're not going to focus on it or waste energy with it. You have better things to do with your brain cells. If it doesn't go away, well then you may have to try some other tactic.
Until that time, feed your brain the good stuff.
This is indeed for you,
(((((((((((((D-after-my-own-heart))))))))))
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Somebody,
I am the guest who posted regarding and after Discounted.
To clarify, I am no longer living with that fear. That was 4 years ago. I have changed much since then about how I deal with Nparents. Nothing to fear from them anymore. I do not live in Alaska - I moved from the east coast to the west coast in the grand ole US of A. Hiring a lawyer at that time was financially impossible for my family as I was an at home mom and my Nparents knew that - exactly why they were threatening the way the were. Their intentions were to instill fear as much as they could to attempt to get their way. It did not work and I have servered ties with them from my angle. Nmom will still send cards, probably try to call, but she will not get a good reception from any of us. Our motto in regards to Nparents and grandparents: "Dead to us!".
The level of fear they can cause is not something one forgets in short time. It stays - not the fear but the memory of how it felt. It makes us stronger though, because we learn to cope yet again in a way that allows us to move on, but never forget, in case we need that fight or flight feeling again.
Discussing the thoughts that we may have flashbacks from our experiences is a good mode of therapy. Talking about our fears and concerns is good therapy. Being told harshly that we should not think the way we think is cruel, considering we are here to discuss things that bother us, make us feel better, milestones, setbacks, regression, etc. You said:
Why don't you try worrying about winning millions of dollars and what the heck you're going to do with all of that money when you get your paws on it??
I'm not being silly, worry about some good stuff. Why not??
Why waste good energy worrying about stuff that "may be buried" someplace?
Replace it with stuff that feels a whole lot better.
Who cares what's in there? There's probably stuff in there that was just as good-- as this bad idea is bad, right? Look for that stuff and quit focussing on all the crap.
In a perfect world that would all be do-able. But I think most of us are here because we are trying to work through it, not to be blasted because we are having a hard time working through it.
I live by the golden rule, even after everything that has happened in my past: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Interpretation, speak kindly and gently, you have not walked in my shoes. If I want the words you used in your post, I would just call my Nparents - I can get as many doses of that as I want. I do not want criticism here. This is to be a haven.
Please stop the cruelty.
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Sorry Guest. You must have misinterpreted my intention.
I posted what has helped me.
It was certainly not cruel and is just another way of looking at things.
I am glad that you are no longer living with that fear.
That's a great thing.
Neither am I and I have walked in fear before, so I feel like I understand what that felt like. I no longer focus on those things and know others who have been helped to overcome it by using such methods.
I guess we just went about dealing with it in different ways, you and I.
Discussion occurs with the exchange of ideas.
I did ask- what for? Why not? Why don't you try...?
It's your choice to accept or reject those ideas. I'm sorry you read that as "blasting" and that you think it seems only feasible in a perfect world.
Best of luck to you anyway.
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Hi,
Fear isn't unusual to me. Its funny, because this got me thinking. I have always been sensitive. What I mean by sensitive, is my 'anxiety arousal' is easily set off. I don't know if it's early experience/upbringing. No doubt it is. Sometimes I think my chemistry is really screwed. I mean, when I think about my social anxiety/O.C.D. tendencies over the years, its no surprise. I've always been quite jumpy. (When my heart 'leaps' it leaps!, like a jolt, almost sore. No, actually sore in fact.).
When I was a kid, fears used to keep me awake. Crazy fears. I'd hear on the news part of a rocket was floating around in space, lost, and might land somewhere on earth, and worry it was going to land on our house during the night. I've had some crazy, fearful thoughts, ....too embarrassing to even say.
I guess I never felt really safe...
I always remember fearing my mother. Never feeling she was a safe haven (like there was always a catch, or doubt). I recal when I was a kid at high school. We all got caught gambling in the toilets in our first year, which, wasn't permitted.
Some kid came up to me afterwards, and thought he'd try and scare me. He was in the year above, and had seen me 'escaping' when the headmaster walked into the toilets, and everybody scrambled, except the few unlucky ones who were caught.
'' You'll probably get expelled now, someone gave him your name so he'll be wanting to see you soon! ''.
I walked around the school, on my own, lost in dread. Holding back tears, literally. Feeling doomed. (All of course, because my mother would have to find this out. Her boy had been 'bad'). Expulsion? My, what were the implications here?
Anyway, it turned out I only got a detention. I got home, and waited on her getting back from work, with much ruminating, dreading, inpatience ( the wait was no doubt a long one.)
When I told her, it was like I hadn't told her anything that big a deal, and anyway, she was just in from work, and the main thing on her mind was getting a cup of tea, and sitting down. So where did this fear come from? Why did I expect such an extreme reaction, yet get nothing? Probably from confusion, I'm guessing. Her shifting moods, unpredictable. I had no doubt GOT the reaction I expected many times before.
Did she withdraw her love? If I didn't comply? Back and forth, as I grew up? If the love was every fully there. I'm not, to be honest, sure I even love her, or them. At least i don't feel anything at the moment. Haven't for a long time, My feelings died a long time ago. Locked away. I don't remember feeling warmth there. Its hurts to wonder if I ever did. Did I cut it off, or did they? Did I withdraw? Was it ever there to begin with? (I'm not looking for answers, just pondering).
A similar thing happened when I was a little younger. I called a chat-line, for fun. My friends and I had been doing it for a laugh, you know, like kids do. Almost prank call-ish. But fun none the less. So I decide to do it, at home, when my mothers out. I get my head round the fact, a week or so later, that we may in fact have an itemized bill, with all calls listed.
No guesses whats coming next. I'm so worried by this, I look out old bills in my mothers room, in a deserate attempt to ease my mind, then spend the next few weeks in dread. I literally felt the world had ended.
I 'confess' to her, about my 'misdeeds'. Because I can no longer stand the wait anymore.
'' What else have you done behind my back??????? ''
I'm not sure why I'm writing this, its all a bit random. But when I get anxious or even paranoid, I can't help but tie it in to my upbringing.
In answer to your question, I don't know :(. I think mines is maybe different anyway, in a way. But I do have big problems keeping my mind free of anxiety/panic, and from it 'going off the rails'.
I'm trying to think of calming 'the child' in me now, I guess, in the hope it will help.
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Thank you, thank you. Now I know why I am so jumpy and nervous. I'm not a scaredy-cat nor am I obsessed with the fear of disaster or impending doom -- I FREAKIN' NEVER GOT TO FEEL SAFE !!!!!!! There ya go :!: I never connected that before. Thanks :idea:
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That's It Exactly.
I, too, am strong, no fear etc (we all must be that way inside, or we would never have survived this far!), but am unbelievably jumpy, always hypervigilant. If someone comes up behind me suddenly and surprises me, I scream, and not just a little scream, but sometimes the big one that comes from my toes! But, now I understand! Thanks! Yes, I remember there always was an 'eye' peeking through the crack in the bedroom door, the bathroom door, any door, any time. Zero privacy, zero respect for boundaries. And sometimes, I would be reading or involved in something, and it would startle me to see 'the eye' of my nmother watching me - and I never knew when, or for how long, or why.
And now, my husband always makes all sorts of racket when he is coming near me, so as not to startle me. Now it all makes sense. That fight or flight mode of survival is deeply engrained in us, I guess
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No, it's not a bit silly.
But it is a bit of a waste of time.
In case you're wondering how you might have set the poster off, describing her flashbacks as "a bit of a waste of time" is dismissive and critical. Maybe you are unaware of how to effectively approach people with your ideas. I would advise not using the phrase "waste of time" to describe anyone's experience. It could be used to describe their actions in trying to control an N parent, but not their experience. The minute most people hear "waste of time" they feel dismissed and put down.
Why don't you try worrying about winning millions of dollars and what the heck you're going to do with all of that money when you get your paws on it??
If you want to suggest "cognitive-behavioral techniques" you have to validate the person's experience first. You failed to do that, hence this comes across as patronizing.
Who cares what's in there? There's probably stuff in there that was just as good-- as this bad idea is bad, right? Look for that stuff and quit focussing on all the crap.
Why do I say such a thing? It works.
There's no need to drill deep down into our unconscious mind and retrieve each and every bit of rotten information that may be buried there.
Just as there is no need to go to the grave yard and dig up bones.
What the heck for?
This is dismissing her experience entirely, and telling her that it's not valuable and "who cares." I would not take this approach as it is a major turn-off to hearing your cognitive-behavioral suggestion.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny. Points taken without resentment. Now to squish that into the one little brain cell of mine that is still operating and keep it at the forefront for future recall!
Hope today is a great one for you!