Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 18, 2004, 09:13:31 PM
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Do you ever wonder who you really are?
Sometimes I look at the path my life is taking, and I imagine that I am someone else... Someone less reserved, more spontaneous. Lots of my choices might be different, even my career path. Who could I be, or should I be. Of course the grass is always greener. Maybe If I had that life, I would long for this life that I have.
We are who we are for many reasons. But I think when we are arround Ns, they sort of suck out our individuality. We live into their images for us (positive and negative) We do things to please others, or to spite others (either case, in reaction to them), and we don't even know who we are or would be without these influences.
How do we go about discovering who we really are. Lately I am wondering "what if I have been wrong about who I am?" How would I know? What is the cost of making it right? Is it possible?
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I know exactly what you mean. I tried all my life to please my mother, do what she wanted, take care of her needs, let her be the focus of everything, stifle who I wanted to be, etc. Now when I am understanding what she was all about (narcissism) I am standing for the first time, looking at myself, and wondering how I can start all over and discover who I really am. It's mind boggling. I'm in a profession I don't really like, I made decisions that I shouldn't have because of what was expected of me, etc., and I don't know where to start changing things and making myself the focus of things, instead of everyone else. It's like getting into a car for the first time and trying to drive without instructions. I want to have the control, but I don't want to get into an accident.
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I'm not really sure how to answer that. Personally, ever since I started having depersonalisation, I've started to feel I don't have a strong sense of self. At first I thought 'God, I've lost myself' (which is *literally* how it can feel). But then, the more I look at my life *before* I even experienced that, (a few years back), I'm not sure I ever have had a strong sense of self :roll:. :S
I mean, where is the line between being 'not having a self', and not really feeling much about yourself at all (I mean *really* feeling, with conviction. A conviction that fills you up, and makes you feel strong, and alive)?
The way I regarded myself, and my feelings...those things had little importance in a way, (even though I didn't realise thats how it was!).
But its something deeper. Its the standing outside yourself, and the ability to interpret how you feel: ''This is how 'I' feel'', ''this is how 'I' see things''. (And most important of all, ''It (how I see things) matters!'')
It was just never very strong. At the same time, my anxiety disorder played a huge part in inability to shape myself, in terms of relating/getting close to others, but I do feel there has been a 'lack of self' even still.
I used to spend a lot of time looking in mirrors, imagining being someone else, people I admired. Pretending, or wishing. A whole lot. I never wanted to be me. When I think about it, my fashioning myself on other people went on way to long, 'till It dawned on me I didn't really have a strong identity. Even that (acting/impersonating) I found hard, such was my self hate, and feeling of being nothing. I'd *try* to feel emotions, and feel nothing.
Even now it is cutting me to pieces (although that might just be anger/depression). I know my attitudes (at 29) on somethings', and yes, I do have attributes so evident, I can't dispute they are a real part of me, but seem to be so full of contradictions or uncertainty on how I feel about others (attitudes to thing's/people/even friends) I feel retarded. People my age, and younger, seem so tight in their skins, while I drift in and out, loosely, feeling little definition.
I used to hope for a relationship, but have realised it will be a long time before I have one, because of how I am. It would just confuse things even more becoming involved/close (not even sure that'd be possible anyway) with another person. (or am I being too negative?).
I've no doubt lack of 'real' (as opposed to 'acted out' life experience has a lot to do with this). I just feel so behind. For me, its something I feel I have to build up slowly, piece by piece.
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The way I learned about my identity was by starting with non-threatening preferences. (This idea came from a book I read.) First, think about my favorite colors, movies, writers, music, foods, activities. This gets an identity going.
bunny
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CJ, I have depersonalization several times, and have for about 15 or so years. It comes & goes.
I think identity is something so many struggle with. For me, I have this sense of duality.
I know who I am personally, for myself, but I don’t have a strong sense of who I am when it comes to being out in the world, and interacting with others, if that makes sense. To me, these two things are very different, and I am trying to make them the same. Just to always be the “me” I am in my moments alone.
I don’t quite know why “me” gets lost so easily when I venture out into the world? Perhaps a lack of confidence in being accepted for who I am is a part of it. I know I think somewhat differently than the masses & am definitely a non-conformist.
I have the feeling that I am my authentic self in certain close relationships, and also have small glimpses of it when communicating with others. Most of the time I feel like I’m putting on a persona that has remnants of the “real me” in it, but is mostly made up of
my fears, and ways of acting that are more mechanical, that I think are acceptable for that situation.
Bunny—I really like the idea of starting small, with simple things. This method works so well with many things, and I think it would be great to use with identity. Sometimes it can be that one starts at the most heated point with such complex questions, becomes burned out within 15 min., and doesn’t want to address the darn thing again because it was just too exhausting and confusing!
I’d like to try to look at some small preferences I have when out in the world dealing with others…
BT
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I am new, here, and was just reading this because it is something I am struggling with, as well.
Here's a thought : It is hard to know who we really are, because we have had to mirror back to our nparent exactly what they wanted us to say or do, or suffer the consequences. We were not only voiceless, but invisible as well. I find that i have spent so much of my life trying to say and do the right thing, because if nmother is happy, I am safe. We become automatically programmed to say and do what the nparent needs. Then, when we are alone, we can revert to being true to ourselves, for a short while. We have missed out on all that normal interaction that most people have, and so it is harder for us to be with people for any length of time, because the casual open, trusting interaction with others is foreign to us. We have been told, so many times, that our ideas are stupid, wrong, irrelevant, that is sometimes hard to know what we really feel or really think. Does that sound familiar?
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Does that sound familiar?
Hi Only Me,
I didn’t have an N parent, but conditions were that I felt voiceless and invisible as you describe, and I also got the message that my ideas were not valued at all.
I do indeed think this affected my level of self confidence, and the maintenance of a strong identity when I am relating with others.
I also relate to the difficulty in having trusting interactions because I secretly wonder whether the other person is judging my ideas a stupid or "wrong", just as I felt as a child.
It is getting less with age (in my 30's) though thankfully! I have no idea what, why how it happens, but in many cases one just begins to care less about what other people might think, and to take less junk from others, as you get older.
I have only heard so much more to the contrary of my feared inner voices. Isn't it something how deeply ingrained our parents messages become, to endure so many years later, and in the face of so many other people and things pointing to the opposite....
My own mother (the source of the initial insecurities) has even praised me in this manner many times as an adult, but yet it is still her voice of decades ago when I was a child, that I hear louder! Incredible.
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Thank you, BT for being there! Yes, the voice of the mother seems to be too strong, and it has a power that I still can't explain. But the emotions attached to her criticisms, or worse, to the fact that she doesn't hear or see me, are nothing short of a rollercoaster ride. Intellectually, I know not to absorb her cruelty, but emotionally, I feel like a little kid again, and regress to becoming voiceless and invisible. Logically, I look at her, and wonder how on earth a little old lady can wield such power over me, but somehow, she does.
It is so exciting to get glimps of our authentic self, and I know when I am being true to myself, because it really feels different from mirroring the nparent's expectations. It feels wonderful to be able to just be 'me'.
My friend suggested I find a chat room. Can't keep dragging my kind husband through all this morbid stuff, day in and day out.
So glad to find you all.
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I know who I am personally, for myself, but I don’t have a strong sense of who I am when it comes to being out in the world, and interacting with others, if that makes sense. To me, these two things are very different, and I am trying to make them the same. Just to always be the “me” I am in my moments alone.
That continues to be the real challenge, for me. And for many others, it seems. The process of bringing the innerself into alignment with the outerself is such a difficult one.
At some point, I came face to face with a question, a "choice point." And I had to ask myself if I was really here on this planet to live out someone ELSE's idea of "my life," or my OWN idea. And that allowed me to start the process of (inwardly) going from just being a "colorless void" to being "someone." And I have done a pretty good job of "Defining me." In isolation.
But then comes the next step. Taking that identity into the world, and not "selling out." But it hasn't really been about not selling out, as much as it is about realizing that you're taking a "new identity" into an "existing paradigm." I have a "life infrastructure" based on voicelessness-- and how do I (can I?) take a voice into that environment? I suddenly become very jarring with my surroundings. So then the question becomes one of whether I just "throw everything out" and start over from scratch. Tell my work, my friends, my life, my relationship "goodbye," move to a new city and start over in a place where I have no "history" and nobody knows me. There's a certain joy in entertaining such a thought, while at the same time it also feels like "running away."
--Peter
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I have a "life infrastructure" based on voicelessness-- and how do I (can I?) take a voice into that environment? I suddenly become very jarring with my surroundings. So then the question becomes one of whether I just "throw everything out" and start over from scratch. Tell my work, my friends, my life, my relationship "goodbye," move to a new city and start over in a place where I have no "history" and nobody knows me. There's a certain joy in entertaining such a thought, while at the same time it also feels like "running away."
Can you try being your authentic self even with people who are used to the voiceless Peter? Maybe they'll like this authentic person. If they don't like it, it's kind of their problem.
bunny
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Only Me ... I totally hear you on the dragging your husband through this -- you don't want to cause him distress, bother him, etc., but, wow, we got to talk, got to talk and work through a whole lifetime. Talking, talking, talking, is absolutely vital I think -- main problem is that unless you have been in our shoes it is very difficult to even imagine. Mostly I hear the "put a period to it and get on with it," which is fine and I do that sometimes, but the pain and abuse has etched deep into my soul and I can't "forget about it." It didn't happen in a movie or book, it happened to me and I can't detach from it. If I do detach, then I would be living in a shell and hardly worth it.
Yes, it's hard to know who you really are. I know that I was the same person when I was a kid as I am now except for the times (and when you are a child that is 100%) when the wicked NQueen was in total control. I know that I twisted and squirmed, agonized and shortened my life with stress over how to please the unpleaseable. There is no way to satisfy an N, they always want more and their source of pleasure and actually their whole existence is to feed on those who are closest to them. I picture it as a vile monster with large fangs, foaming at the mouth eating a little girl alive -- nothing left of me but my 2 little pigtails dangling from her foul smelling mouth. And my father in the background turning his head, pretending not to hear or see and if caught peeking, he would pretend to misinterpret the circumstances.
To cherish, love and desire a child is the normal, natural way of life, particularly for the female gender. Most people take that for granted, and I suppose there is no other way for them to feel. I can see how descriptions of the suffering we endure(d) might be construed as a misunderstanding, personality clashes, ignorance, defiance, yada yada, and how a listener would get sick of hearing the same old story. Truth is, Nparents are monsters, devoid of redemption, and those who don't experience the trauma they inflict can never understand.
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Hi Discounted Girl,
You are exactly right in all your comments about the nmother. I read your message, and it was like I wrote it myself.
My husband has saved my life, because I am an 'only' child, and he is the first person to actual witness the verbal abuse - which only happened because they didn't know I had him listen on the phone. That was the beginning of seeing the evil. He said he didn't want to tell me that my mother was nuts, but over time, she revealed herself for the cruel woman she really is. She would put on her nice-nice show for him, fuss over him, etc. The only difference is that her phony charms don't work on him. He has stood by me while I have been unpeeling the layers and layers of pain, coming to terms with the things she has done. Now, when she does or says something that is not quite right, I can see the abuse through new eyes.
But, I don't want to go on and on and on about it with my husband, you know? I hate that her evil has so much power in this house. So, being able to safely vent with you all is going to be wonderful. It will give my sweetie a breather! We need to be strong, to stand up to her manipulations.
Yes, the stress definitely has shortened my life as welll, and that makes me very angry. I have lived in the 'fight or flight' mode until the past few years, and that is not healthy at all.
And now, I almost resent the energy I have to expend just to cope with the situation, just to keep myself grounded, just to try to live my one life, with my own dreams - what a foreign concept!
I am so thankful I found this chat room. It is my first, and it is perfect.
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To the Peeling Onion, The Only Me 8)
Well, you already know how fortunate you are to have such a jewel for a husband -- he sounds totally terrific !! I would imagine she is jealous of his love for you, how could anyone love such a dumb useless thing as you, right ? I have an IQ of about 136 and that old bag has called me "stupid" so many times. Yikes, when my onion peels, after I wipe off the blood, I see how foolish I was to take her crap. I have a really long extension of "one more chances," but when I am done, I am done and I felt the extension cord snap that day 3 years ago, and it is gone for good. I do not wish her ill will, only that I never have to be in her presence ever again. To feel your own mother's hatred is something noone should ever have to experience.
Here's to us -- and the onion peeling continues. Maybe there is a big sweet, wet, luscious rose under all that -- mine is yellow, what is your's? :wink:
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I have a "life infrastructure" based on voicelessness-- and how do I (can I?) take a voice into that environment? I suddenly become very jarring with my surroundings. So then the question becomes one of whether I just "throw everything out" and start over from scratch. Tell my work, my friends, my life, my relationship "goodbye," move to a new city and start over in a place where I have no "history" and nobody knows me. There's a certain joy in entertaining such a thought, while at the same time it also feels like "running away."
I said goodbye to all once, and started anew. When I was 25, 11 years ago, I moved 5 hours away, into another province where I remain now, because the inner turmoil I was experiencing was too much.
It helped me a lot, but only because my goal was to figure out what was “wrong” with me, and I needed quiet space and distance from the people and surroundings of my childhood to do so.
In other words, it wasn’t that I thought starting over would have things be different for me, it was really about survival, and gaining enough emotional stability to begin to heal.
But I’ve certainly had that relieving vision of starting over where nobody knows me, simply in order to have the chance to be different, to be the “real me”, as well.
Though what I learned first hand via the actual experience (it is a cliché in phraseology) of having done that for a dif. reason, is that the infrastructure that the voicelessness was born out of was/is in me. I take it wherever I go.
Though whatever the things are that need to be healed are always there with us, I do at least think some environments, both worldly conditions and situational (i.e. relationships) conditions we place ourselves in, can make it easier to feel more peaceful, authentic, and to heal, than others.
In that sense, I think sometimes a big-ish change can not be "the cure" in and of itself, but can be helpful.
BT
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Hi everyone,
what a powerful thread! A few random thoughts to toss in:
1. Can someone define "depersonalization" for me? Is that kind of like turning into cottage cheese around other people and taking on their preferences for flavor? I think I may do this, but want to know if I'm on the same page as to definition of this concept.
2. Only Me: I'm glad to read also that your H is witness to your reality. Thank goodness your mom can't gaslight him. There are so many Ns out there with major JEALOUSY that think if I can't have it (e.g. good happy marriage) then you can't either. They love to knock over sandcastles because they can't build their own.
3. I think we non-Ns suffer a great deal from approval seeking. This is a major control lever for Ns. What will people think?
Just today I took on the role of my NSIL with my daughter (we were roleplaying, not headtripping 8) ). I used favorite phrases like "aren't I wonderful for adopting this child? Don't you support my decision? Then why won't you be the nanny while I go off and do whatever?" "Don't you like adopted children?" "Aren't families supposed to be there for each other?" "You must be selfish if you don't help me." My daughter stammered and got so red in the face! Fortunately this was an opportunity to provide her with some replies and help her stand her ground at school and with some pretty pushy teachers who like to shame their students as well. You know, the standards like "that is your responsibility and you need to do it yourself", "I'd like to help you but I don't want to get hurt" "It isn't selfish for me to take good care of myself" etc.
This all came up because we were talking about how when kids copy and cheat at school, the person copied off of gets in trouble too. So that person has to be able to say NO to a friend who is putting them in a bad position.
4. So back to approval seeking: I still struggle when having a difference of opinion (even a non-threatening "preference") because even if someone gets their bloomers in a knot about liking or not liking a movie, I think I did something wrong even if it is their problem. Because I am not supposed to try and be the "opinion leader". Big no-no amongst my family and the other women I hang with. However, I did learn a great line from another mom: "can we still be friends if I disagree with you?" and then she delivers what she wants to say. I thought that was brilliant and simple.
Sorry if I went off on another tangent. This thread got me going! :) Peace, Seeker
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Hi Seeker,
Typing fast here! On my way out for a run before it gets too late/dark.
It’s difficult to explain the feeling…
Depersonalization is a sense of being detached from ones emotions or “spirit” or identity as they know it.. There are several ways someone might describe their own experience with it. It can feel like being mechanical/robot-like, separate from everything, a sense of being in a dream-like or fantasy state, like everything is unreal, like you are watching yourself from the view of another person…
There is something that often goes along with that, called “derealization”. That is kind of the same, but instead of feeling detached from ones own self, you feel detached from the environment. These two often go hand in hand.
I guess that would be the perfect word actually, if I had to choose one to describe it.... detachment.
I personally don't find it a scary or unpleasant thing at all, but just a very, very bizarre feeling. If one is not afraid and knows that it is not a serious medical thing happening and that you will come out of it, it can almost be a pleasant experience, just for the sheer curiousness of it. It is a bit like exploring another dimension of things...
Though, I wouldn't want it to happen too, too often...
BT
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Hi BT & Seeker,
I guess I just kept missing you, Seeker, and sure glad to finally catch up :)
These are just my interpretations and not a segway to a debate.
"Depersonalization"
I would say that describes a superficial, shallow, no-risk existence. Maybe you would mold into what others around you like to see, but it would be meaningless, cause your heart isn't in it, either to swell with joy or break from grief. Seeker, I doubt you would make a good Zombie.
"Detachment"
I was about to use the word detachment as a definition, but I think there is a difference. I once had a friend who fit this description. She never got "in the trenches" with anyone. She was friendly and fun most of the time, but you knew that if you really needed her, she would not be there and was not really committed to anything. She was a single mother as I was, so we had a lot in common, but more in difference. Example: she felt no obligation to ensure her children receive a higher education. I enjoyed her company but knew she was not gonna be there for the long haul.
However, I must admit, that while I have never been able to actually pull it off, I have tried to "detach" before, simply to get a rest.
Curiously, I saw a documentary on people who have had "near death experiences," and a great many of them are no longer able to maintain deeply committed personal relationships. They feel love enmasse, but not so much individually. A lot of their marriages break up and relationships with others change. Others feel less important to them and left out, as if the experienced one is floating on a higher plane, holding some secret knowledge that makes them somewhat divine. It's rather like some new age stuff that I became involved in several years ago. I have given most of that up, deciding it's a form of deception in the guise of a golden answer.
Just points I wanted to share.
Approval Seeker -- could be a pun. It is very exhausting isn't it? Hurry up little girl, do this, don't do that, don't say that, walk this way, smile that way, do as your told, don't cry, get good grades, pull down your skirt, comb your hair, don't laugh so loud, don't make mother mad. What did I do? Oh yeah, what? Oh, I forgot she doesn't like me to .....eeeekssss ...
I have made this line my notebook wallpaper, thank you.
CAN WE STILL BE FRIENDS IF I DISAGREE WITH YOU?
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you know i think i get this depersonalisation and non realisation things too.i look it up on the interntet and it is a very well known definitions in psychologies field. i didn't ever knew this existed! wow.
so many things i feel and then i see their is a lot of studies and well know names for it. it lead me to more understanding that i am not sick in the body or crazy! one times i was thinking i had the brain tumor because of this strange perseptions :(
all of this is so much fascinating and i learn so much here from everyones! :D
thanks
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Guest,
Only an “FYI”, for the sake of accuracy to Seekers question, you are right about desensitization and derealization in that they are very specific psychological terms that describe the specific experiences. What I described as a definition was not interpretive or supposed, but related to the well known (in the field) medical definition of these things.
I had to laugh because I always used to think I had a brain tumor, too!! I was notorious in my family for that. For me it was because of the symptoms of an anxiety disorder, for which I didn’t know I had at the time.
Just like you described with d & d, many times I can say that I had no awareness of what was happening to me, and it is terribly distressing. It happened to me at first with d & d as well. The biggest part was that I had quite a severe anxiety disorder as a child and adolescent, with many symptoms. Only years later when I learned about panic attacks, it all became crystal clear. When I decided on my vocation and began to study psychology, I had so many “aha!” moments and had to refrain from jumping out of my seat in the lectures hehe…
When I was having severe panic attacks, I nor anyone around me had any idea what they were. I was experiencing the sensation of electrical jolts in my head (hence I thought I had a brain tumor). My poor, worried father had no idea what to think and was at a loss for what to do. He kept saying not to worry because it was only “growing pains” hehe (it is only funny so many years later). The doctors could find nothing, and not a single suggestion was made about panic disorder or anxiety related symptoms.
Nowadays, if you say “panic attack” its meaning is pretty well known by the general public, but it wasn’t at all when I was 13 -19. Anyway, I think it is the same with so many things we can experience, especially if we have been deeply emotionally affected by something. We don’t know these things have a name and that so many other people (often many millions) experience the exact same.
Though in this era of technology, it can be so different, and that is fantastic. I think the Internet is such an amazing informative tool here, just like you used it.
I’m very glad you figured out what you were experiencing has a name. It makes allllll the difference, doesn’t it! :)
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That was me, "BlueTopaz" above.....
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bluetopaz you had the brain tumour fears to! thank you for your words. my family was never bleiving me too and when i find these things i want to show them how cruel they were and wrong but i think they will always find the excuses to look at me as the bad and crazy one because they want to hide the truth of their abuse and sick ways.oh well.its only infos to help me and this is what matters!!for me and feeling good and to know i am well and ok.i'm sorry for my english and i hope its ok too.,
thankyou
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Hi everyone!
DG, you made me laugh with the Approval Seeker pun. :D Totally "got" me. And thanks again for asking around about me. It really felt pretty good to be missed by someone. Hugs to you. From now on, I'll try to remember to log on. I've been posting as guest (it's faster) and then signing my posts.
Thanks, all, for clarify the depersonalization idea. No, I don't do this/have this. But I felt for you BT when you described panic attacks and how long you have had them with no help. Ay. My panic attacks started only during a "war" with my NSIL. I can't imagine what it would be like to grow up with someone as damaging as her with no help. I think I would feel totally destroyed.
What a lifesaver this board is to have people who understand what continual attacks on your very being feels like. Fortunately in my case, I am an adult and one who didn't experience these before and got help right away with no one stopping me. My H was a veritable rock (in the good supportive sense) during all of this.
That's interesting stuff about the NDE people, DG. I've read some of the accounts of the books which I find has really changed my perspective and helped me be a little more forgiving about people who are difficult. I didn't know how detached the experience could make the NDE'ers. But it makes sense.
Hugs, Seeker